[PF] Help me make a decent human ranged rogue

[Frosty]

Hi everyone, I'd like some help figuring out how to make it worthwhile for a rogue to specialize and favor ranged weaponry (shortbows preferably) in Pathfinder. Pretty much all official Pathfinder sources are available, but I'd like to limit cheese. It's for an NPC not a PC.

Restrictions:
No 3rd-party sources
Race must be human
20pt Buy
1 trait allowed. No flaws or drawbacks.
Preferably no non-rogue levels
Chained or Unchained rogue are both fine

I know it's hard to do ranged sneak attack in PF, so I know this is never the optimal way to go, but any way to make it decent is nice. Thanks!

[Sayt]

Ranged sneak attack?

...how about the Eldritch Scoundrel (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=pfsrd%20eldritch%20scoundrel) Archetype. Learn Obscuring Mist, get a Goz Mask (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/magic-items/wondrous-items/goz-mask).

Bing, bang, boom.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I'm not sure it's possible. If you use ninja rather than rogue, you can use your ki for invisibility and get your sneak attacks that way.

You can also UMD a scroll of greater invisibility and tear things up that way (but obscuring mist, fog cloud, glitterdust, see invisibility, or invisibility purge will mess that up). If it's an NPC opponent for the PCs, either of those might be enough. If it's an NPC who will travel with the party, you'd need to multiclass into someone who can cast greater invisibility because using a scroll every encounter is going to get expensive. Also, you'll find that as the party's level increases, a lot of things have blindsight or always active true seeing.

If you use the sniper archetype, you can eventually sneak attack from long range and may be able to make the sniping rules work for you (long range means the hide checks are easier) but that's much more of a solo adventure strategy. Unless the whole party is trying to engage at long range, it's not likely to work out. For an NPC, though, that might be what you're looking for.

Snap Shot would let you flank with a ranged weapon as I read it but you'd have to be next to the foe. That might let you sneak attack with a bow, but it's not sneak attacking at range.

A scout archetype rogue can eventually get sneak attack on his first attack for moving 10 feet. There might be a way to combine that with gravity bow, overwatch style, minotaur/double crossbow, and/or vital strike and make it a worthwhile strategy.

Depending upon what you want to get out of the rogue, there's also the option of using fighter (standard or crossbowman if you use crossbows and overwatch style), ranger, or bolt ace gunslinger and taking VMC rogue. No sneak attack that way, but you'll deal enough damage that you probably don't need it. Slayer or (IIRC) Stygian Slayer archetype inquisitors can also deal pretty good archery damage without using sneak attack and can still fill most of the rogue role.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Ranged sneak attacks are very difficult to pull off during the early levels. The first thing to look at are the Sniping rules under the Stealth skill. Basically, this lets you stay hidden after making a single ranged sneak attack with a move action to roll a new Stealth check, but at a -20 penalty to your check. That's a HUGE penalty, but there are four ways to reduce it:


Feat: Expert Sniper
Advanced Rogue Talent: Stealthy Sniper
Halfling Race Trait: Swift as Shadows
Signature Skill: Stealth


Expert Sniper reduces the penalty to your Stealth checking when sniping by 10. It only requires that you have 3 ranks in Stealth, so you can pick it up with your 3rd level feat. Stealthy Sniper sets the base penalty to -10 instead of -20, but you can't pick up an advanced rogue talent until level 10. Finally, Swift as Shadows can be gained at first level if you play a Halfling, trading away your Sure Footed ability. This reduced your movement speed penalty while using Stealth by 5 feet and reduces the penalty on Sniping by 10.

You will also want to pick up the rogue talent Sniper's Eye, which allows you to make ranged sneak attacks against targets within 30 feet with concealment. Note, this is Chained Rogue only, but this is likely an oversight on Paizo's part so ask your GM if you can use it with Unchained Rogue. If you go Unchained Rogue (and you should) then pick Stealth as your first Signature Skill, as with 5 ranks of Stealth you get to reduce the penalty on your sniping stealth checks by 10.

As you can see, the Halfling is the optimal race to play, as you can completely negate the sniping penalty by 3rd level and your small size grants you a +4 bonus on your Stealth checks. If you stick with playing a Human then with an 18 dexterity you could negate the penalty by level 5. So it depends on how quickly you want to get up and running.

There is one trait that you want to have, Fiendish Sniper. This gives you a +5 bonus on Stealth checks when sniping. It is a "Tiefling only" trait, but like all racial traits you can qualify for it via the Adopted trait.

The one mandatory item for this build is a pair of Sniper's Goggles, giving you unlimited range for sneak attacks and +2 damage per dice if you make a ranged sneak attack within 30 feet. They cost 20,000gp though, so you better save up and hopefully can convince another player to be a crafter.

[Frosty]

Too bad the Scout class doesn't exist in PF...

WHat about old tricks involving blink or splash weapons? It looks like everything has to do with hiding a lot and only getting one attack off a turn at best, or relying on some expensive magic items.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Too bad the Scout class doesn't exist in PF...

WHat about old tricks involving blink or splash weapons? It looks like everything has to do with hiding a lot and only getting one attack off a turn at best, or relying on some expensive magic items.

The Pathfinder Ninja can get Greater Invisibility as a Ki Power at level 10. Generally I don't recommend this as a viable plan if you're starting at first level.

[Frosty]

bah, I guess I'll need to build a sniper then. Can you give me a rough build path up through say...level 7?

[Elder_Basilisk]

Too bad the Scout class doesn't exist in PF...

WHat about old tricks involving blink or splash weapons? It looks like everything has to do with hiding a lot and only getting one attack off a turn at best, or relying on some expensive magic items.

Scout archetype rogues are actually pretty close to the scout class from 3.5 though they can only get one sneak attack per round from movement so the various tricks to get skirmish on a full attack won't work.

[Frosty]

The trick was to use Greater Manyshot (along with a lot of levels in Ranger) to deliver 4 attacks at once, all of which get skirmish. But now manyshot has been changed to becoming Rapidshot++ so no go there.

[Florian]

@Frosty:

The whole Sniper/Sneak Archer concept does not function all too well and most classes get the required mechanics around 10th+ level.
Compared to the ranged DPR a dedicated Cavalier or Paladin can have, it´s simply not worth it.
What you could take a look at is the Slayer class, as well as the two archetypes Sniper and Stygian Slayer. That´s less about SA then repeatedly using Death Attack/Assassinate, but the effect is roughly the same.

[Psyren]

Too bad the Scout class doesn't exist in PF...

WHat about old tricks involving blink or splash weapons? It looks like everything has to do with hiding a lot and only getting one attack off a turn at best, or relying on some expensive magic items.

They told you an easy way above. Fog spell or smokestick + Goz Mask (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/magic-items/wondrous-items/goz-mask) or Fogcutting Lenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/lenses-fogcutting) = full attack with SA against nearly every enemy, even ones with true seeing or blindsense.

[Frosty]

Thanks Psy. I guess the NPC will just have to suck until she can get those items heh.