Why is "water levels are bad" such a common internet stereotype?

[Togath]

I've never understood the "water levels is bad" internet stereotype thing... Like, do a lot of people really have that view? Or is it just a stereotype?
If it is a real thing... Why?
I've yet to encounter any that seem annoying to me, except maybe the controls in kingdom hearts 2(due to them being inverted from the controls I like, though it didn't really matter due to it being a rhythm game level with virtually no travel).
Have I just had really good luck with stuff like Mario and WoW?

[Yora]

I am under the impression that this applies exclusively to Zelda games.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if lots of people have difficulty navigating in truly 3D environments.

[Destro_Yersul]

The Water Temple in Ocarina of time is, if not the originator of the trope, a significant contributor towards it. It's the longest of the six temples, and involves a lot of mucking about in the inventory changing in and out of the iron boots, as well as a confusing layout, tons of backtracking, and the water level raise/lower gimmick being a right pain. It also had the most annoying miniboss.

Outside of that, I can't think of too many especially terrible water levels. Maybe Chemical Plant zone? The drowning music will haunt your nightmares. The controls in the Mario 64 water levels weren't great, but the levels themselves were alright. Any game which features a drowning mechanic will, of course, be incredibly annoying if it has forced water segments.

[Togath]

The water temple thing does sound annoying. 0_0
And I suppose in my 2d mario/Wow experiences, drowning wasn't much of an issue(since you get infinite water breathing in the main water zone of WoW).
Trying to remember if I've played anything else with water segments... Kingdom Hearts 1 seemed decent(again, no drowning), and in TES games I've played there's magic that can help(though Skyrim slaughterfish without any mods/console commands are annoying. Luckily they do little damage and can be outrun)

[RoyVG]

Water levels generally have different controls than during the majority of the game, there are very little games where underwater is the majority, so the controls are sometimes not as fleshed out. This might cause some frustration. Many 2D games don't have this problem as much as 3D games. Water levels in 2D Mario games generally have pretty simple controls, but the 3D ones take much more time to get used to.

In most 3D games, you are usually limited to a 'pseudo-2D' plane, namely the ground, and maybe some jumping. This makes thing relatively easy to handle, and things liek puzzles or enemies are placed in such a way that you can handle them from the ground. Water levels have full 3D movement capabilities, the third dimenison is readily explorable simply by swimming. This adds a new layer of complexity, both for controls, exploration, and in some game, problem-solving. The more notorious water level experiences are the Zelda games where most of the Water Temples have mechanics that involve raising and lowering water levels, changing parts of the these temples from 'Pseudo-2D' to fully 3D. Often certain parts of the dungeons are not accessible when the water level is a certain way and this results in backtracking a lot, which is frustrating. The Ocarina of Time Water Temple also has another issue considering an item that is necessary in this dungeon, but that has more to do with the way the item has to equipped and de-equipped over and over again through the start menu, which gets tedious reaaaally fast. the 3DS remake fixes this issue and subsequent Zelda games like Twilight Princess and Skyward sword made this much more manageable one way or another.

[Jimorian]

Sounds a lot like Escort Quests in just about any game. Where the AI pathing of the character you need to lead to safety is both slow and frustrating. By the end, you pretty much want to just kill them yourself. :smallfurious:

[Fri]

I also suspect part of it is trauma against sonic's freakin water level for internet people at certain age.

Seriously, I think roughly 100% of people who own sega genesis, will get PSTD by hearing this very short theme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yw5jkAHgME

(to elaborate, you have limited breath in sonic games and you have to catch air from bubbles that periodically appear in certain area. It's really... what's the equivalent of claustrophobic for this I wonder. Seriously, especially for kids, it's goddamn scary.)

Also, on something more general, usually in platforming game water level is a change in gameplay that's for the worst, like, a game with tight physic or jumps suddenly turn weird and slow and floaty or such.

But if you have unlimited air and good control it'll be nice. Spyro water level is basically free flying stages, and everyone love it.

[shadow_archmagi]

The Water Temple in Ocarina of time is, if not the originator of the trope, a significant contributor towards it. It's the longest of the six temples, and involves a lot of mucking about in the inventory changing in and out of the iron boots, as well as a confusing layout, tons of backtracking, and the water level raise/lower gimmick being a right pain. It also had the most annoying miniboss.

Outside of that, I can't think of too many especially terrible water levels. Maybe Chemical Plant zone? The drowning music will haunt your nightmares. The controls in the Mario 64 water levels weren't great, but the levels themselves were alright. Any game which features a drowning mechanic will, of course, be incredibly annoying if it has forced water segments.

Don't forget the water level in Majora's Mask, which managed to be even more obnoxious. Instead of changing the water level, you had to change the water CURRENTS and turn pumps on and off and just ugh.

And then, come to think of it, Twilight Princess had a kinda obnoxious water level too!

[The Glyphstone]

There's always the water level in Battletoads...but then, it's Battletoads, so the water level was probably the easiest bit of the game.

[Destro_Yersul]

Don't forget the water level in Majora's Mask, which managed to be even more obnoxious. Instead of changing the water level, you had to change the water CURRENTS and turn pumps on and off and just ugh.

And then, come to think of it, Twilight Princess had a kinda obnoxious water level too!

And you had to change in and out of the Zora Mask instead of the Iron Boots, so there was a short and thankfully skippable animation to go with the item change. Though, the mask could be bound to one of the C buttons, so there was less inventory mucking. There were other things, though. Like the time limit, and trying to collect all those blasted fairies. For all that, though, it is by no means the most obnoxious temple in that game. Stone Tower is worse than pretty much anything.

[cobaltstarfire]

I also suspect part of it is trauma against sonic's freakin water level for internet people at certain age.

Seriously, I think roughly 100% of people who own sega genesis, will get PSTD by hearing this very short theme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yw5jkAHgME

(to elaborate, you have limited breath in sonic games and you have to catch air from bubbles that periodically appear in certain area. It's really... what's the equivalent of claustrophobic for this I wonder. Seriously, especially for kids, it's goddamn scary.)



This so much, I got very good at avoiding the water as much as possible in all the genesis sonic games. Atleast in S3&K you could swim as tails...

Otherwise water levels don't really annoy me, I love areas where I can swim/fly.

[Grif]

A related water level complaint is surprisingly Pokemon R/S/E, where a full last third of the game involves traversing water routes. And with water routes, come endless Tentacruels and Wingulls/Pellipers harassing you every other step you take. :smalltongue:

ORAS dialled this down a notch, with reduced encounter chances, I believe.

[Vaz]

On the other side of the coin, Spyro 2 actually had Water Levels to showcase its new swimming ability and dive ability.

It is still among the best games I have ever played, and one of the few where the sequel was arguably better than the original.

[huttj509]

Controls are important.

When your primary interaction is through the control of your character, a lot of thought needs to go into making that control feel appropriately responsive and right for the game (for example, Super Mario 64 focused a lot on the movement with the intent that just exploring that open area in front of the castle, running around and jumping for no reason, would feel fun).

Water levels generally introduce different controls, which can be an out of place experience, and less polished than the normal game movement for the game.

This also goes for ice mechanics. http://brawlinthefamily.keenspot.com/2011/12/24/2863/

[Red Fel]

Much of it, I think, dates back to the early days of videogames, when things were Nintendohard. Games were hard to begin with, and then water levels were thrown in and were much, much worse.

Take the original Super Mario Bros. First off, game mechanics changed. You couldn't just move from left to right at your usual speed; it was slower, clunkier. You had to focus not only on moving side to side, and occasionally jumping - essentially, moving in one dimension and occasionally moving that line up or down - but properly moving in two dimensions, navigating over and around. Further, the usual defenses didn't work - you could no longer safely jump on things like you do in regular levels. You had to dodge, again with those awkward controls. And because the game was timed, the slower, more awkward movement speed - and having to learn these new mechanics - created an overwhelming sense of pressure.

I need not even mention the Ninja Turtles game. The dam level still gives experienced gamers nightmares. Those freaking electrified seaweed, man.

Now, Zelda games have had a water-themed level since the SNES. Admittedly, that one wasn't so bad - there were areas that were simply inaccessible without the flippers, and the big frustration was that being knocked into the water automatically counted as a fall. That was infuriating. But it was a trope - "forest temple, volcano temple, water temple." It was only in later games that those water mechanics became the stuff of frustrating nightmares.

Ultimately, the whole premise of a water level is, "Look, new mechanics we're going to throw at you this one time and never again." And generally, those new mechanics make things harder, not easier. Hence rage.

[shadow_archmagi]

Ultimately, the whole premise of a water level is, "Look, new mechanics we're going to throw at you this one time and never again." And generally, those new mechanics make things harder, not easier. Hence rage.

The thing is though, that's the theme of pretty much EVERY temple in a zelda game. From the Spirit Temple's mirror sunlight stuff to the Tower of Earth's upside down stuff to the Sand Temple's crazy beyblade action.

It's just always exclusively the water temple's new mechanics that make people grumpy.

[Winter_Wolf]

Water levels sucked because they not only changed the controls, but because they made them clunky unresponsive crap "to simulate the reality of being in water," apparently. I'm guessing said designers never were good at swimming. Rarely you find a game that gives you fun and water together, but it seems those games are designed around being water based.

[Calemyr]

The thing is though, that's the theme of pretty much EVERY temple in a zelda game. From the Spirit Temple's mirror sunlight stuff to the Tower of Earth's upside down stuff to the Sand Temple's crazy beyblade action.

It's just always exclusively the water temple's new mechanics that make people grumpy.

Not exactly. Every Zelda dungeon's mechanic is "Here's a cool new toy! Use it!". Water levels go much further. They take the focus from land and air (where the controls are usually pretty good) to water (where the controls are usually really bad), incorporating a whole lot more backtracking than even a Zelda game is prone to, and generally use the worst mechanics, the most frustrating enemies, the most tedious map setup, and (in later games) the need to micromanage your gear at a level you never have to do otherwise. And that's assuming you don't have to worry about air.

Very few games indeed make water levels fun. They are at best sub-par levels with gimmicks that don't apply elsewhere and are best forgotten as soon as they are done. (Mario Bros, Megaman) and at worse extraordinarily drawn out studies in the worst gameplay a game has to offer (Zelda), ruthlessly designed stages demanding levels of control the stage explicitly strips away from you (TMNT), levels where you are persistently seconds away from dying (Sonic), or extremely boring, repetitive levels that nobody asked for in the first place (Sonic Adventures, Pokemon). Still other games make it even worse by giving you limited air supply and the complete inability to defend yourself while swimming (Skyrim).

The only game I can think of that did water in a fun way was an old Twisted Metal-style game that used submarine vehicles to make the area three dimensional.

[Knaight]

Very few games indeed make water levels fun. They are at best sub-par levels with gimmicks that don't apply elsewhere and are best forgotten as soon as they are done. (Mario Bros, Megaman) and at worse extraordinarily drawn out studies in the worst gameplay a game has to offer (Zelda), ruthlessly designed stages demanding levels of control the stage explicitly strips away from you (TMNT), levels where you are persistently seconds away from dying (Sonic), or extremely boring, repetitive levels that nobody asked for in the first place (Sonic Adventures, Pokemon). Still other games make it even worse by giving you limited air supply and the complete inability to defend yourself while swimming (Skyrim).

The only game I can think of that did water in a fun way was an old Twisted Metal-style game that used submarine vehicles to make the area three dimensional.

I've seen plenty of decent water levels. Even the Zelda series has at least one, in the Skyward Sword level that was actually rock solid. ToME uses a breathing mechanic, which actually produces a pretty fun effect in that it brings in new tactics. Fire Emblem has a fair few swamp levels, in which you get to beat the snot out of everybody with your flying units, which are often constrained pretty heavily by archers (although there is that one swamp level where you get ambushed by wyvern riders, which is fun for a different reason). The Metroid games have had a few water levels that worked pretty well, which involves many of the more interesting enemies in the series.

[Calemyr]

I've seen plenty of decent water levels. Even the Zelda series has at least one, in the Skyward Sword level that was actually rock solid. ToME uses a breathing mechanic, which actually produces a pretty fun effect in that it brings in new tactics. Fire Emblem has a fair few swamp levels, in which you get to beat the snot out of everybody with your flying units, which are often constrained pretty heavily by archers (although there is that one swamp level where you get ambushed by wyvern riders, which is fun for a different reason). The Metroid games have had a few water levels that worked pretty well, which involves many of the more interesting enemies in the series.

I'm afraid that, with the exception of Metroid, those games are out of my experience, so I can neither concede nor argue the point. Skyward Sword is the only Zelda* I could never find (I assumed it was a WiiU game until I got one and found it wasn't in available in the console store). (* That were on the consoles and actually made by Nintendo, that is.)

While I agree that most Metroid games were actually pretty cool once you got the gravity suit, going into water anytime earlier tended to be a slow, frustrating affair where your movement was crippled. The gravity suit removed all the downsides of the water levels while retaining the upsides. With the exception of the level's music and boss in Super Metroid, however, there was very little I actually remember, though I can't think of any part of Super Metroid I didn't enjoy. Anyway, I still stick to my stance that, for the vast majority of video games, water levels are at best largely forgettable and at worst enough to seriously hamper enjoyment of the game as a whole.

[Eloel]

Maybe Chemical Plant zone? The drowning music will haunt your nightmares.

This. Screw this. I hated it as a kid, I hate it now.

[Traab]

I need not even mention the Ninja Turtles game. The dam level still gives experienced gamers nightmares. Those freaking electrified seaweed, man.



/sobs. WHYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!

[huttj509]

I think megaman needs to get a shoutout in a positive way because the water/space mechanic has been used in some interesting ways where it's bot a hinderance *and* a benefit.

While the jumping gets used to put dangerous spikes above you, it also gets used to let you jump over things you normally couldn't, dodge space robot lasers, and shoot weak points well above what you could normally reach.

It's a double edged sword, but it does have that second edge.

[Volthawk]

In some games, I've found the most annoying thing about water isn't being in the water, but getting out of it. Most the sides just being a bit too high up because your character apparently can't use his hands to climb out, weird bouncy jumping out of it, only being able to get out at certain places...it's a pain.

[Rodin]

The one that gives me nightmares is that Half-Life level where your train-cart gets wrecked. Swimming around through an underwater labyrinth of rubble, with an unforgiving breath meter AND a 15-second flashlight to illuminate the pitch-black water.

*shudder*

[KillianHawkeye]

And let's not even mention all the platforming games where getting your feet wet results in instant death. (Surprisingly, TMNT on the NES also falls into this category, and the characters are god-damned amphibians!! :smallfurious:)

[Sam113097]

As mentioned above, Pokemon's water routes, while not exactly "levels", are definitely not enjoyable. The entire time, you face frequent encounters with only 1 or 2 types of Pokemon that can poison or confuse you if you don't run. Additionally, some of the games make your speed while Surfing painfully slow.

In the original Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games, some of the hardest dungeons are water-themed, including Silver Trench, which is 99 floors long, and Stormy Sea, the first "post-game" dungeon.

[Fri]

This. Screw this. I hated it as a kid, I hate it now.

I have a thought in my mind about this actually. Play the Sega Genesis Sonic's drowning music in a mall's sound system. See who cower into fetal position or dash around in panic and/or fear.

Those are people who had sega genesis as a kid instead of super nintendo :smallbiggrin:

[Vitruviansquid]

Slightly more technical explanation:

Almost all games you will play are designed to have a satisfying "core gameplay loop," which is the most usual and basic activities you will be doing from moment to moment during play. For example, in Mario 64, the core gameplay loop is running around, jumping onto platforms, looking for items. Out of everything you will be doing in the game, the core gameplay loop likely contains the actions that went through the most testing, refinement, and polish. It also tends to be the actions you have bought the game for, and are playing the game for. For example, people probably bought Gears of War for brutal cover-based shooting, not... oh... the rare driving levels.

So what tends to happen on water levels? Water levels tend to come with entirely new swimming controls, which are outside of the core gameplay loop. Running, jumping, and making other sorts of maneuvers in a game's space feel good because game designers tend to be very careful at setting the pace, feedback, options, and such. When you enter a water level where the primary mode of movement is different and received less focus during development, you tend to have less fun moving around for reasons that are difficult for the average gamer to explain.

[Hiro Protagonest]

A related water level complaint is surprisingly Pokemon R/S/E, where a full last third of the game involves traversing water routes. And with water routes, come endless Tentacruels and Wingulls/Pellipers harassing you every other step you take. :smalltongue:

ORAS dialled this down a notch, with reduced encounter chances, I believe.

The Hoenn region has plenty of pokemon that I love, but playing ORAS reminded me how terrible that last 1/4 of the game is. Oh, and I still hate the Seafoam Islands in Gen 1 and their remakes. The reason water-type is so... oversaturated (don't kill me) is because we can't encounter anything but water-types when surfing. And swimmers use nothing but water-types, too. Thankfully, Ace Trainers in ORAS do mix it up a bit.

Anyway, Shovel Knight had Treasure Knight's Iron Whale, which could very easily be your first "frustrating" level of that game. Assuming you don't go to the Explodatorium first. But it's rather tame compared to what comes later.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Banjo Kazooie had not one but two water levels, plus a couple of other areas that had some water. One of them had oil-slicked water that caused your breath meter to tick down while swimming on TOP of the water on the theory that the oil and gunk was keeping you from breathing, much like the seals in that one infamous incident.

As with most water levels, the problems were in the controls. The primary swim was extremely slow, so you couldn't get to where you needed to go. There was a dash button where the bird would use his wings, but that typically caused you to over-shoot what you were aiming at. And, of course, breath meter.

[Destro_Yersul]

Anyway, Shovel Knight had Treasure Knight's Iron Whale, which could very easily be your first "frustrating" level of that game. Assuming you don't go to the Explodatorium first. But it's rather tame compared to what comes later.

The Iron Whale isn't even that bad. I think the water makes you a bit floatier and lets you jump a bit higher, but most of the challenge of that level is not due to water physics. The Shovel Knight devs paid a lot of attention to all their gameplay mechanics, and it shows.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The Iron Whale isn't even that bad. I think the water makes you a bit floatier and lets you jump a bit higher, but most of the challenge of that level is not due to water physics. The Shovel Knight devs paid a lot of attention to all their gameplay mechanics, and it shows.

Yes but it has that angler fish.

[Nilehus]

My guess is you can only look at scum covered pipes, sewer grates, and bricks underwater for so long before it gets old. And for some reason, they are (subjectively) ALWAYS absurdly long.

I know that there are a lot of level designs like that, but I don't really associate sewers with 'fun' or 'interesting'.

[Hiro Protagonest]

My guess is you can only look at scum covered pipes, sewer grates, and bricks underwater for so long before it gets old. And for some reason, they are (subjectively) ALWAYS absurdly long.

I know that there are a lot of level designs like that, but I don't really associate sewers with 'fun' or 'interesting'.

Sounds more like sewer level than water level to me. I don't consider that dreary place in Dark Souls to be a "water level".

[Nilehus]

Sounds more like sewer level than water level to me. I don't consider that dreary place in Dark Souls to be a "water level".

True enough. I lump the two together generally, since most water levels I've played were in a sewer or something similar.

Also: That godawful blue/brown filter that washes everything out.

[Triaxx]

I think in no small part, it's because people have some trouble adapting to a sudden change in controls. I know I do. Even so, some people simply don't. They continue trying to play the game like they're still on land, and that really doesn't work. I suspect my ease of adaptation is due to having a slower approach to most situations than average. I approach with caution and look for all the benefits. So when I get the ability to walk under water, I proceed to experiment with learning how to walk. Give me a new swimming mechanic, I'll spend a few hours playing with the swimming mechanic.

That said, there's nothing nice to say about TMNT's dam level. OoT's water temple had one more key than everyone seemed to realize. Majora's Mask's Temple wasn't that bad actually. I liked the water flow puzzles, though I also completed it without knowing you could hold A to swim rapidly and continuously. I did the entire thing tapping A to sprint/ram. TP's temple was my favorite, if only because of the vertical possibilities. Go back later and play around with the Double Clawshots and you'll find it lots of fun even then.

I don't like instant death water, if only because I love to find secrets hidden under it. I really liked Final Fantasy 1's water shrine, because it was all underwater with enemies, but no silly breath meter.

As for Pokemon, water routes have been a bit of a bugbear since gen 1, but they're also an invaluable place to train electrics and grass types. (The latter on trainers because they're vulnerable to poison and flying which are the two common types.)

Mega Man's water levels were often frustrating because they screwed with the Jump mechanics. 3's were the best because of the Rush Marine. (Giving Mega Man a Submarine.) Though 5 probably takes the cake for the worst water level ever, with two Battletoads style water bike sections.

[Vaz]

As mentioned above, Pokemon's water routes, while not exactly "levels", are definitely not enjoyable. The entire time, you face frequent encounters with only 1 or 2 types of Pokemon that can poison or confuse you if you don't run. Additionally, some of the games make your speed while Surfing painfully slow.

In the original Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games, some of the hardest dungeons are water-themed, including Silver Trench, which is 99 floors long, and Stormy Sea, the first "post-game" dungeon.

No less annoying than Zubat Cave. And by the time you have Surf, you have essentially infinite money so no problem with risking too much. Use the time to train Electric or Grass Types. A Thundershock or Vine Whip (on non Poison type) from your resident fast sweeper type should be enough to gib it.

Spend a couple of thousand of previously unneccessary $, and you're golden. Only time I've had issues are the rapids in Red forcing you to go particular ways, and had more trouble with the Safari Zone, until it got to a stage where I'd get Surf, go to the Kangaskhan/Tauros/Scyther/Chansey area, fish for a dratini, leave and surf up and down Cinnabar until they appeared in battle.

A pure slots game just wasn't fun for me, and what made Fuschia town my least liked one (as one who chose Bulbasaur, facing Koga without your primary is basically saying 'catch a Drowzee and power level it' despite it being rarely crap.

Another game which comes to mind for Water levels is Final Fantasy X; it forced you to use a pair of characters; in my case, during my first, and underlevelled Wakka and Tidus; I favoured Kimahri/Auron/Lulu/Yuna as my team, with Big blue taking Tidus' place/path in the sphere grid, hence when you got to an area that forced you into using particular characters, it was kinda deblitating.

Without a Thunderstrike weapon on either Walla or Tidus, I was really suffering during the Moonflow stage, and had to backtrack for about 4 hours to power level, and try to get them so new overdrive techniques. But really, the issue there is removing your chosen characters, rather than actual other annoying gameplay effects.

[danzibr]

Personally I dislike ice levels with low friction.

[darksolitaire]

Water levels: pure nightmare fuel (http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83452033569e2014e88d2ff6c970d-800wi).

[Squark]

I have a thought in my mind about this actually. Play the Sega Genesis Sonic's drowning music in a mall's sound system. See who cower into fetal position or dash around in panic and/or fear.

Those are people who had sega genesis as a kid instead of super nintendo :smallbiggrin:

I never played a sonic game past the first level before I bought them on Steam a few months ago, and didn't get very far then.


That music still freaks me out.

[Hytheter]

And let's not even mention all the platforming games where getting your feet wet results in instant death. (Surprisingly, TMNT on the NES also falls into this category, and the characters are god-damned amphibians!! :smallfurious:)

Turtles aren't amphibians, they're reptiles...

[Landis963]

Turtles aren't amphibians, they're reptiles...

Reptiles with a surprisingly high level of water-solubility, apparently.

Back on topic, there are a few gems (or at least prettier pieces of rough) that don't quite fit the stereotype, and I have had the good fortune to not play through many of the most egregious ones personally. Mario Galaxy's water levels, for example, removed much of the control issue by giving you an underwater jetpack in the form of the koopa shell, while Twilight Princess' Lakebed Temple was less fiddly, had a clear progression from start to finish, and most importantly didn't overstay its welcome.

[Ashen Lilies]

Does Manaan count as a water level? >.>

I'd submit that to somewhere close to top of the list for crappy water levels if it were.

[Calemyr]

Does Manaan count as a water level? >.>

I'd submit that to somewhere close to top of the list for crappy water levels if it were.

If I recall correctly, it's worse than a water level, it's a water level with lawyers.

[Maryring]

Huh, interesting to see the Banjo Kazooie water levels described as bad. For me, they were up there with Click Clock Woods as "really awesome levels".

[shadow_archmagi]

Does Manaan count as a water level? >.>

I'd submit that to somewhere close to top of the list for crappy water levels if it were.

I mean, it DID have obnoxiously slow underwater sections. For.. no reason? Did anything happen during those jaunts?

[Triaxx]

Not quite a water level, because you want to stay out, but annoying just the same, from the first Ratchett and Clank, where you have to turn a valve and then race the rising water to a door you can't get open if you're not there first. It took me like a dozen tries before I managed it.

[Destro_Yersul]

I mean, it DID have obnoxiously slow underwater sections. For.. no reason? Did anything happen during those jaunts?

Weren't there sharks that would eat you if you didn't press a button?

[Fri]

Another thing I remember, Indiana Jones and Emperor Tomb has a stage set in a watery cave with giant shark, you sometimes have to swim around the water, sometimes purposefully luring the shark, while the shark would kill you in one hit.

Goddamn, I hate those kind of stages.

[Androgeus]

Weren't there sharks that would eat you if you didn't press a button?

It also had a jug filling logic game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Huh, interesting to see the Banjo Kazooie water levels described as bad. For me, they were up there with Click Clock Woods as "really awesome levels".

Seriously? That skull in Rusty Bucket Bay was the single most difficult item in the entire game to acquire for the 100% completionist ending.

[Psyren]

Rather than just list examples, I think it's helpful to discuss what common features make them onerous to many players.

- Breath mechanics: Many games with water levels require you to get into the water, and furthermore, give you a limited amount of time you can stay in it. This usually ends up as a series of timed challenges where you're racing from checkpoint to checkpoint so you can take a breath before drowning. It also means, in more open-ended games, that you're punished for getting lost or turned around.

- Water Resistance: Many games simulate this phenomenon by make swimming slower or harder than walking and running. Even in games where the player is given an improved swimming ability or aquatic form to overcome this obstacle, very often you're forced to traverse a watery area without it first so that you can better appreciate the differences in kind that such a technique gives you. This also combines with the first point to make traversing water-filled levels even more hazardous.

- Lighting: Water levels tend to be poorly-lit; deep water is very dark, and many games try to simulate this for good or ill. It's further exacerbated by the level's palette, which often involves choosing darker colors - blues, purples, deep greens - for their aquatic aesthetic. This makes water levels effective at hiding secrets, which is annoying for completionists, and also makes them very easy to get lost in, further exacerbating the first difficulty.

- Changing Physics: This goes hand in hand with the second one - some games (e.g. the Megaman series) model water levels with very strange physics. The most common change is by letting you leap while you're underwater as though you're on the moon, to which the developers helpfully add brand new hazards like ceiling spikes. There can also be currents and whirlpools to deal with. Often, these new physics are necessary to use (or avoid) in order to find all the secrets.

- Aquatic Combat: Water levels are many players' first experience with enemies that can come from any direction, including above and below. The water levels in Mario were one of gaming's first examples of this, though there are many others. Throwing a whole new axis into combat, especially combined with the difficulties above like lighting, can make levels controller-snappingly difficult the first time through. Fighting underwater also provides unique challenges depending on the game, with some of your weapons or techniques working differently or not at all due to the properties of the water itself. For example, Conker's Frying Pan no longer works when he is underwater, and you're forced to evade monsters rather than fight them.

Of course, not all water levels have all of these, but many have multiples from this list, and thus they earn their reputation of higher difficulty. The first Super Mario Bros. for instance has Water Resistance (you move more slowly) and Aquatic Combat (your jump attack no longer works), but no breath mechanics or lighting issues. Sonic meanwhile has breath mechanics and changing physics, but you can fight things just about as effectively in the water as you do on dry land, although in Sonic 3 water does snuff out your fire and lightning shields.

[GloatingSwine]

Not quite a water level, because you want to stay out, but annoying just the same, from the first Ratchett and Clank, where you have to turn a valve and then race the rising water to a door you can't get open if you're not there first. It took me like a dozen tries before I managed it.

That timed run is one of the hardest things in the original Ratchet & Clank.

However, it does have an actual water level later on which is quite good because you have infinite air and a decent movement mode with the aquapack.

[Triaxx]

Honestly, the only part of the game that came close for me was the hoverboard race. The rest wasn't bad, but those two parts were awful.

[Togath]

Definitely getting a good idea of why there's such a stereotype from hearing these stories.
Looking back, I've definitely encountered some of the issues in games, skyrim for instance(I suppose "you have to cheat and turn on godmode" is a pretty big issue ^_^; enemies you can't fight, a breath meter[in some scenarios at least], and a constant strong water current).
It's also interesting to look at games with good water levels(which are the main ones I've played, looking at it) and seeing what changes they made to wake them that way. Vashjir of WoW for example is in a game and expansion where players were already used to full 3d movement(via flying), had no water resistance(once you finished the tutorial), and no breath meter(again, once you do the tutorial), and the water sections in the ps1 and ps2 Spyro platformers always felt decent as well to me, though I'm not quite as sure why.

[Triaxx]

Skyrim isn't quite that bad. If you know there are fish, any of the cloak spells will kill them pretty fast.

Other games they're more of a problem. You've got to avoid them, and that's not always easy.

[Forbiddenwar]

Remember Amnesia Dark Decent's water level.

Scariest part of the game,imho. Which could mean best and worst part of the game simultaneously.