How tough is the Tarrasque, really ?

[Aetol]

Big T is supposed to be a formidable monster. In fact, going by the encounter creation guidelines in the DMG, it is way above the "deadly" threshold even for a lvl 20 party. However, I keep hearing that it is overrated, and even more so in 5E. And indeed, in this edition it has no regeneration, and no longer requires a Wish to be killed.

My question, then, is simple : what level would a 5-characters party need to be to have a fighting chance against the Tarrasque, in your opinion ? We will assume a balanced party of reasonably optimized characters. No Tarrasque-killer builds, obviously.

[INDYSTAR188]

I don't know the answer to your question but I think the Reflective Carapace ability is pretty nasty. Combined with immunity to non-magical weapon damage and Legendary Resistance and its easy to see where the challenge comes from. I think a serious limitation is that the tarrasque has to be in melee to attack, a ranged attack is the missing capability.

[HoodedHero007]

In theory, a 5th level wizard with fly can wear down a tarrasque with acid splash/poison spray/ice knife/other AOEs

[Wartex1]

It's lack of a range attack kills it, so to make it more formidable, give it the ability to scoop up chunks of ground and throw it for high damage.

[INDYSTAR188]

In theory, a 5th level wizard with fly can wear down a tarrasque with acid splash/poison spray/ice knife/other AOEs

This is why if you are going to run the tarrasque you should include dynamic terrain features. Maybe the tarrasque runs into tall buildings knocking them into the wizard. Maybe it uses its tail to fling a wagon at the wizard. I'm trying to think of other terrain it could use to defend against the flying ranged character attack plan.

*edit: could those additional terrain interactions be legendary actions?

[Pyon]

In theory, a 5th level wizard with fly can wear down a tarrasque with acid splash/poison spray/ice knife/other AOEs

And run out of spells eventually. I'm afb at the moment but I doubt your cantrips will out damage his regen

[Socko525]

And run out of spells eventually. I'm afb at the moment but I doubt your cantrips will out damage his regen

Again as stated above, it no longer has regen

[INDYSTAR188]

Again as stated above, it no longer has regen

It does have Reflective Carapace - "any time the tarrasque is targeted by a magic missile spell, line spell, or a spell requiring a ranged attack roll, roll a d6. On a 1-5 the tarrasque is unaffected. On a 6, the tarrasque is unaffected, and the effect is reflected back at the caster as though it originated from the tarrasque, turning the caster into the target."

I rarely see this mentioned when discussing the tarrasque but this limits some of the flying/cantrip-spamming low level party options. Seems like if the DM used this to great affect plus added legendary actions to throw environment/terrain features at flying attackers the tarrasque could be a incredibly difficult fight.

[JellyPooga]

Again as stated above, it no longer has regen

This is why I'm very disappointed with Big T in 5ed. He's...just another bruiser and not even a particularly scary one at that.

The point of Big T was always "it's the monster you just can't kill". Massive Regeneration and a Wish spell to keep him dead were hard things to overcome; level 17 minimum without a magic item to provide the Wish. Now, any chump who can avoid his attacks (which is really easy against something with a 40ft ground speed and no other movement types) and deal consistent damage can wear him down eventually. Even his Immunity to weapon damage is irrelevant; who doesn't have a magic weapon at that level?

Example
Lvl.4 Wood Elf Rogue* vs. BiG T...FIGHT!
(several hundred rounds of kiting later)
FATALTITY
Rogue Wins!

*with the Mobile Feat and a magic +1 dagger

[Gtdead]

The 25 armor is kind of a problem for any relatively low level party that doesn't try to cheese with some ridiculous tactic.

A party with archers and spell casters that focus on dex save spells can destroy it pretty easily.

Dex save spells (like call lightning) guarantee some damage/turn
Archery has the highest attack roll.

I think that a lvl 9 party with 3 ranged characters is just about right. Less than that will probably require some trickery in a straight up fight.
If the dm allows for it, there is always a contagion spell available somewhere.

[JoeJ]

The answer depends to a huge degree on how much the players know about what they're up against. If all they know is that their characters are in the way of a giant city-destroying mystery, it's going to be a lot harder for them.

[JumboWheat01]

It does have Reflective Carapace - "any time the tarrasque is targeted by a magic missile spell, line spell, or a spell requiring a ranged attack roll, roll a d6. On a 1-5 the tarrasque is unaffected. On a 6, the tarrasque is unaffected, and the effect is reflected back at the caster as though it originated from the tarrasque, turning the caster into the target."

I rarely see this mentioned when discussing the tarrasque but this limits some of the flying/cantrip-spamming low level party options. Seems like if the DM used this to great affect plus added legendary actions to throw environment/terrain features at flying attackers the tarrasque could be a incredibly difficult fight.

Acid Splash, to use the example above, is neither a line spell or one that requires a ranged attack roll. It relies on a saving throw instead, so it simply bypasses that all together.

[Rhaegar]

In theory, a 5th level wizard with fly can wear down a tarrasque with acid splash/poison spray/ice knife/other AOEs

Flying characters pelting him from above be it flying wizards, Aracokra, or by any other means of flying, only works if the DM controlling the Tarrasque is a complete moron. If I were the DM, and the players tried to invoke this strategy, and the Tarrasque had no means of attacking them, I wouldn't have him running around in circles till he died, I'd have him burrow under the ground, and force them to come to him if they wanted to kill him.

[Aetol]

Now, any chump who can avoid his attacks (which is really easy against something with a 40ft ground speed and no other movement types) and deal consistent damage can wear him down eventually.

Actually it can have up to 140ft of movement, with its legendary action "Move". Also, kiting only works if you have no obstacles in front of you for miles.

My question hasn't been answered so far. Anybody's got an idea ?

[RickAllison]

My question hasn't been answered so far. Anybody's got an idea ?

One person did note that he estimated a level 9 party with decent ranged potential. GTDead, I believe.

[INDYSTAR188]

Acid Splash, to use the example above, is neither a line spell or one that requires a ranged attack roll. It relies on a saving throw instead, so it simply bypasses that all together.

But the tarrasque has advantage on all saves vs magic and Legendary Resistance...

[JellyPooga]

Actually it can have up to 140ft of movement, with its legendary action "Move". Also, kiting only works if you have no obstacles in front of you for miles.

That 140ft is misleading, though because it depends on three opponents acting. It goes down to 100ft against a solo opponent and then only if Big T is wasting his action on Dash. Assuming Big T wants to get anything done (i.e. not Dash), he's down to a mere 60ft against a single opponent. A non-Dashing Riding Horse can keep pace with that.

Kiting effectively doesn't require a straight line, either. If you're fast enough you can circle or even run straight past.


My question hasn't been answered so far. Anybody's got an idea ?

One level 4 Wood Elf Rogue can kill Big T and that's not even a build designed solely for killing him.

If it must be a 5-man party, then I'd give pretty much any lvl.11 party of 5 decent odds of winning. They might take a few casualties, but lvl.11 is a big power bump for most; Fighters get their 3rd attack, a lot of Classes get significant features and Spellcasters get lvl.6 spells; notably Conjure Fey and Planar Ally.

Big T just ain't that scary any more.

[JumboWheat01]

But the tarrasque has advantage on all saves vs magic and Legendary Resistance...

Advantage and Resistance aren't flat out immunities. They can be forced through eventually. All it takes is the usual sacrifices to the RNG gods, and the dice can be in your favor.

[Gtdead]

But the tarrasque has advantage on all saves vs magic and Legendary Resistance...

The thing is that as long as you hit it with dex save spells, it takes damage, no matter how little. It depends on the strategy, the context and the dm help but if you can find a way to stay relatively safe and hit it with dex save attacks you will steadily wear it down.

[Talamare]

The way to use the T is that there is agency to killing him

Destroy him or he will destroy a city etc

If you're on a personal plane or island and you're allowed to fight him for several days in a safe manner, then well eventual GG but I doubt it was interesting.

The thing is, I'm sure you can say that about most monsters. So it's not the size of the T that matters, its how you use him

[JellyPooga]

The way to use the T is that there is agency to killing him

Destroy him or he will destroy a city etc

If you're on a personal plane or island and you're allowed to fight him for several days in a safe manner, then well eventual GG but I doubt it was interesting.

The thing is, I'm sure you can say that about most monsters. So it's not the size of the T that matters, its how you use him

This is kind of the problem with him, though. He's like Godzilla with his pants down. You can see him coming (it's not like he has a burrow or swim speed), so you'll have time to prepare. With time to prepare, you can stop him getting to the city. Given enough time, you can just wear him down. This means that he can't just ignore the PC's whilst he goes and destroys half the city. Maybe he can for a while, but eventually he'll have to deal with them or die.

Give him back his Regeneration and suddenly he's Godzilla without the lightning breath again; he can ignore the fighter plinking arrows at him and wreck buildings because he'll get those HP back in a round or two. With Regen, it takes a concerted effort to take him down, all the while he's doing what he does best; devour the cities of man. Stopping him a few miles outside the city isn't enough, because he will eventually get around your defences, either by literally walking around them, destroying them or waiting you out whilst your magic falters. The same can't be said for non-Regen Big T because if you hold him up long enough and dump him in a metaphorical (gargantuan) vat of acid, he'll go down like a chump.

[INDYSTAR188]

The thing is that as long as you hit it with dex save spells, it takes damage, no matter how little. It depends on the strategy, the context and the dm help but if you can find a way to stay relatively safe and hit it with dex save attacks you will steadily wear it down.

See here's the thing, how are the characters supposed to know all this intimate knowledge about this legendary monster?

A lot of arguments seem to be, "it only has this movement ability, these defenses and if it approaches a generic big city on a flat plane we can just wear it down." Do you think the characters would honestly know that stuff?

Would there be a 'big book of all things tarrasque' where pc's can just read up on it? I imagine a beast thats so huge, dangerous and rare that there has never been a way to empirically study it and determine its weaknesses. I can imagine survivors telling stories which grew to legends (its an invulnerable beast!) but not specific stuff like, "ok wizard bob everyone knows you can only use dex based attack spells on it."

I have a thing about character v player knowledge and a lot of the 'strategy' is very meta based.

Edited to add that it might not be possible to answer ops question without the kind of intimate knowledge about the tarrasque but in an actual 'in-game scenario' I would push back at my players using their background knowledge of the monster to get a considerable advantage.

[Doug Lampert]

Flying characters pelting him from above be it flying wizards, Aracokra, or by any other means of flying, only works if the DM controlling the Tarrasque is a complete moron. If I were the DM, and the players tried to invoke this strategy, and the Tarrasque had no means of attacking them, I wouldn't have him running around in circles till he died, I'd have him burrow under the ground, and force them to come to him if they wanted to kill him.

He's going to do this with his non-existent burrow speed?

You see, if you add even minimal regeneration and burrow speed he starts to look hard to kill. Throw in even a feeble ranged attack and he starts to look downright dangerous.

But the designers DID NOT GIVE HIM any of that!


See here's the thing, how are the characters supposed to know all this intimate knowledge about this legendary monster?

A lot of arguments seem to be, "it only has this movement ability, these defenses and if it approaches a generic big city on a flat plane we can just wear it down." Do you think the characters would honestly know that stuff?

Would there be a 'big book of all things tarrasque' where pc's can just read up on it? I imagine a beast thats so huge, dangerous and rare that there has never been a way to empirically study it and determine its weaknesses. I can imagine survivors telling stories which grew to legends (its an invulnerable beast!) but not specific stuff like, "ok wizard bob everyone knows you can only use dex based attack spells on it."

I have a thing about character v player knowledge and a lot of the 'strategy' is very meta based.

They don't NEED any of that meta-knowledge. Oh look, it's a big dumb brute. Let's not get close. We'll try kiting it; have the wizard fly and pelt it from above is a fine thing to try.

Hmm, no ranged attacks and it's not burrowing. A, B, and C don't seem to hurt it at all. It actually reflected one spell back.

Maybe area attacks. It doesn't seem particularly fast, and big brutes tend to have low dex and it's described as having a carapace, which doesn't go with high dex, maybe I should try a dex save. I've got a cantrip, let's see what it does. Acid splash.

Minimal damage, but that's not no damage. I'll try that a few more times.

Several hundred rounds later:
Nearly flawless victory! The only damage I took was when he reflected that one spell back at me!

All you need is for the GM to offer fairly routine descriptions of the monster and it's actions and the correct tactics are also the BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS tactics unless your characters like taking damage.

[JellyPooga]

I have a thing about character v player knowledge and a lot of the 'strategy' is very meta based.

Hmm...in general I agree with you; metagame knowledge vs. character knowledge is usually to be frowned upon.

However, Player Characters aren't (usually) morons. There's a lot of things they'll be able to deduce after only a few rounds;
- It's a big old tough beastie. It's probably ludicrously strong and tough, but by the way it moves, it's not so mobile. "Hit it with things that target Dex and not Str or Con" is a reasonable assumption anyone seeing it could make.
- It literally doesn't move that fast. A character might get surprised once by its Legendary Move action taken three times in a round, but only a fool would assume it can't do it again.
- It demonstrably cannot fly. Until it displays otherwise, it's a safe bet it's not going to suddenly start.
- If you can keep its attention on you, then "kiting" it would be a sensible way to attack it; you can tell just by looking at it that a swipe from its claws will hurt...a lot, so unless you've got a death-wish, you're not going to stand toe-to-toe and hack at its toes with your sword.

Then, as you say, there's legends. Perhaps there is a "Big Book of Big T" in some library somewhere. It might not be accurate information, but it may have information that can be interpreted by the Character into metagame knowledge for the Player; the book might say "ye Tarresque could not be subjected to befuddlements of the mind and no knowne toxin used appeared to have effect", which translates to the GM telling the player; it's immune to charms and poison. The book might also have erroneous information, but that's up to the GM whether he wants to mislead his players or not.

[EvilAnagram]

This is kind of the problem with him, though. He's like Godzilla with his pants down. You can see him coming (it's not like he has a burrow or swim speed), so you'll have time to prepare.

Not necessarily. He's still ridiculously fast with his legendary action, so he can rise from the earth and make it to a city quite quickly. Unless you're tossing some high-level damage at him, he doesn't need to pay you any mind.

And all the guards and archers in the city won't matter if they don't have magic weapons.

[JoeJ]

See here's the thing, how are the characters supposed to know all this intimate knowledge about this legendary monster?

A lot of arguments seem to be, "it only has this movement ability, these defenses and if it approaches a generic big city on a flat plane we can just wear it down." Do you think the characters would honestly know that stuff?

Would there be a 'big book of all things tarrasque' where pc's can just read up on it? I imagine a beast thats so huge, dangerous and rare that there has never been a way to empirically study it and determine its weaknesses. I can imagine survivors telling stories which grew to legends (its an invulnerable beast!) but not specific stuff like, "ok wizard bob everyone knows you can only use dex based attack spells on it."

I have a thing about character v player knowledge and a lot of the 'strategy' is very meta based.

Edited to add that it might not be possible to answer ops question without the kind of intimate knowledge about the tarrasque but in an actual 'in-game scenario' I would push back at my players using their background knowledge of the monster to get a considerable advantage.

In one of the tarrasque threads last year I suggested adding a swim speed, darkvision, and a ranged attack in the form of thrown debris. I also suggested:


Really making the tarrasque scary, though, depends a lot more on staging than on the stat block. To start with, I'd plan far ahead and have PCs from time to time run into hippy druids complaining about the arrogance of wizards and their unnatural experiments. This would go on long enough to be dismissed by the PCs as just a part of the campaign background.

The fun starts when the PCs notice that spells that contact or access other planes are sometimes failing for no apparent reason. Not just their spells, but everyone's, and the higher level spells are the least reliable.

Then a wizard NPC whom they know is higher level than they are calls for help with a Sending. But by the time the party arrives at the wizard's island sanctum sanctorum, it's been smashed and there's no trace of the wizard. Attempts to use Commune, Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore, or similar magics produce little useful information, just with some vague warnings about something called the destroyer. The PCs will, presumably, start doing some serious research, and will get some clues but still no definite information. At no time would their research ever lead them to the word "tarrasque."

A week or so later, they hear that a coastal city quite a ways from them has been destroyed in a single night. The few survivors don't know what did it; only that it was huge and came out of the sea. It was a dark, cloudy night, and nobody got a good look at it. A few days later another city is destroyed, also at night. This time there are no survivors.

Two nights later, during the dark of the moon, a major storm hits the PCs city. Over the noise of the rain and thunder, ominous booms are heard from the direction of the ocean. At first, the PC's can't be sure that it's not just their imagination, but the booming increases in volume until it shakes the ground. Then comes the roar (I'd play this clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zhJljblPcY)).

Roll for initiative.

If they survive the night, they might still have a chance to figure out what it wants and how to send it back to wherever it came from.

[Rhaegar]

See here's the thing, how are the characters supposed to know all this intimate knowledge about this legendary monster?

A lot of arguments seem to be, "it only has this movement ability, these defenses and if it approaches a generic big city on a flat plane we can just wear it down." Do you think the characters would honestly know that stuff?

Would there be a 'big book of all things tarrasque' where pc's can just read up on it? I imagine a beast thats so huge, dangerous and rare that there has never been a way to empirically study it and determine its weaknesses. I can imagine survivors telling stories which grew to legends (its an invulnerable beast!) but not specific stuff like, "ok wizard bob everyone knows you can only use dex based attack spells on it."

I have a thing about character v player knowledge and a lot of the 'strategy' is very meta based.

Edited to add that it might not be possible to answer ops question without the kind of intimate knowledge about the tarrasque but in an actual 'in-game scenario' I would push back at my players using their background knowledge of the monster to get a considerable advantage.

What could be fun is to make a few minor tweaks to the Tarrasque that won't change his difficulty at all for people who hadn't fully studied his stat block, but would totally screw over people who had plans to overly detailed around it's stat block. Any changes can be attributed to incomplete knowledge of the Tarrasques abilities, information lost or misinterpreted over the centuries, or him gaining new skills and abilities as he himself learns and levels up.

[Gtdead]

See here's the thing, how are the characters supposed to know all this intimate knowledge about this legendary monster?

A lot of arguments seem to be, "it only has this movement ability, these defenses and if it approaches a generic big city on a flat plane we can just wear it down." Do you think the characters would honestly know that stuff?

Would there be a 'big book of all things tarrasque' where pc's can just read up on it? I imagine a beast thats so huge, dangerous and rare that there has never been a way to empirically study it and determine its weaknesses. I can imagine survivors telling stories which grew to legends (its an invulnerable beast!) but not specific stuff like, "ok wizard bob everyone knows you can only use dex based attack spells on it."

I have a thing about character v player knowledge and a lot of the 'strategy' is very meta based.

Edited to add that it might not be possible to answer ops question without the kind of intimate knowledge about the tarrasque but in an actual 'in-game scenario' I would push back at my players using their background knowledge of the monster to get a considerable advantage.

Some suggestions are as simple as "see monster, throw a fireball or shoot it with something". In the case of Tarrasque, these 2 things work (well not fireball, but any spell that works like fireball and bypass it's resistances). If sacred flame works, but eldrich blast doesn't, you figure out that there is something wrong with eldrich blast and you ditch it in favor of something that works more like sacred flame.
Plus there are ways in game to learn stuff about a monster (which is always the right way to approach this situation, if you load on fire spells to go kill it, you will die a horrible death)

[RickAllison]

Maybe area attacks. It doesn't seem particularly fast, and big brutes tend to have low dex and it's described as having a carapace, which doesn't go with high dex, maybe I should try a dex save. I've got a cantrip, let's see what it does. Acid splash.

Minimal damage, but that's not no damage. I'll try that a few more times.

The question is whether it even looks as if the Acid Splash damaged him. How much is the Tarrasque, with 676 HP, going to react to an attack dealing 7-10.5 damage. It is entirely reasonable he wouldn't react to that hit at all so in-character there would be no indication that it had actually worked. To give a sense of scale to that damage, only a character with around 63 damage would even be suffering 1 HP of damage. An L1 PC literally couldn't tell by HP they had even been attacked at that scale of damage.

[JoeJ]

The question is whether it even looks as if the Acid Splash damaged him. How much is the Tarrasque, with 676 HP, going to react to an attack dealing 7-10.5 damage. It is entirely reasonable he wouldn't react to that hit at all so in-character there would be no indication that it had actually worked. To give a sense of scale to that damage, only a character with around 63 damage would even be suffering 1 HP of damage. An L1 PC literally couldn't tell by HP they had even been attacked at that scale of damage.

It makes it even harder if the immunity to nonmagic weapons is portrayed as near instantaneous regeneration. So when the tarrasque attacks the city, it appears to be taking damage from the arrows of the city guard, and it might even react in pain to something like a heavy ballista. Noticing which wounds heal and which don't, in the middle of combat, would be a rather tough Investigate check.

[RickAllison]

It makes it even harder if the immunity to nonmagic weapons is portrayed as near instantaneous regeneration. So when the tarrasque attacks the city, it appears to be taking damage from the arrows of the city guard, and it might even react in pain to something like a heavy ballista. Noticing which wounds heal and which don't, in the middle of combat, would be a rather tough Investigate check.

And that gets into why custom monsters are so great! No entry in the MM means the players have to figure everything out the same way as the PCs :smallwink:

[EvilAnagram]

And that gets into why custom monsters are so great! No entry in the MM means the players have to figure everything out the same way as the PCs :smallwink:

I usually just bait and switch. Set up some red herrings, so all the metagaming players get ready for one thing, then pulled the rug out from under them.

[RickAllison]

I usually just bait and switch. Set up some red herrings, so all the metagaming players get ready for one thing, then pulled the rug out from under them.

Oooo, Alter Self would be perfect for that!

[JoeJ]

Oooo, Alter Self would be perfect for that!

Maybe a dragon disguising itself as the tarrasque? That would be a fun surprise for the metagamers.

[RickAllison]

Maybe a dragon disguising itself as the tarrasque? That would be a fun surprise for the metagamers.

I had that idea myself :smallbiggrin: I love the image of a party of low-level Aarakocra/Feral Tiefling archers flying up to pincushion the tarrasque, only to see him flying up to knock them out of the sky!

[HoodedHero007]

Maybe a dragon disguising itself as the tarrasque? That would be a fun surprise for the metagamers.
That wouldn't work, a metallic dragon can only turn into a humanoid or a beast, and even if you were using the "dragons as spellcasters" rule, true polymorph can only change you into something with a lower CR than yours (if I remember correctly)

[Gtdead]

It could work as part of an illusion though. Dragon deceives he locals by wrecking some **** at night and then using an illusion to pass as a retreating tarrasque. Villagers thing it's a tarrasque, ask for help, party arrives prepared to fight one, but it finds a dragon instead.

Now I'm not sure why the dragon would do that but whatever ;p

[RickAllison]

That wouldn't work, a metallic dragon can only turn into a humanoid or a beast, and even if you were using the "dragons as spellcasters" rule, true polymorph can only change you into something with a lower CR than yours (if I remember correctly)

It was actually with Alter Self. The only restrictions for that are same size and basic shape. If the dragon tucks its wings in, it will be just fine. No need to fret about types or CR.

And the dragon could do that because it's a ticked-off chromatic?

[JoeJ]

That wouldn't work, a metallic dragon can only turn into a humanoid or a beast, and even if you were using the "dragons as spellcasters" rule, true polymorph can only change you into something with a lower CR than yours (if I remember correctly)

I was thinking Alter Self, not Polymorph.

edit: Shadow Monked.

[EvilAnagram]

Seeming doesn't work?

[Boci]

Maybe a dragon disguising itself as the tarrasque? That would be a fun surprise for the metagamers.

A bit cheating though, since you said research doesn't reveal anything about Big T. Dragons are old, but they typically aren't older than the written world in a campaign setting.


But yes, you as a DM, can make the Tarrasque, a CR 30 monster, a tricky encounter for pre-10th level PCs. That's hardly a endorsement of his mechanics.

[RickAllison]

A bit cheating though, since you said research doesn't reveal anything about Big T. Dragons are old, but they typically aren't older than the written world in a campaign setting.


But yes, you as a DM, can make the Tarrasque, a CR 30 monster, a tricky encounter for pre-10th level PCs. That's hardly a endorsement of his mechanics.

No, it has a lot of holes in its design. I have no argument to that, it is really weak and its CR doesn't seem fitting.

[JoeJ]

A bit cheating though, since you said research doesn't reveal anything about Big T. Dragons are old, but they typically aren't older than the written world in a campaign setting.

I wasn't combining the two scenarios.

[Boci]

I wasn't combining the two scenarios.

So, Big T is unresearchable unless you conviniently need him researchable by an NPC to ambush metagamers? That's questionable DM-ing. Now you can say the players deserve it for trying to defeat Big T at level 8 with metagaming tactics. Now ignoring the possibility that the characters arguably aren't metagaming ("go to the air and attack it by range, find out which attack hurts it" seems doable without cheating), I'd say the DM in questions deserves most of the blame for putting Big T in the general vicinity of level 8 players.

[RickAllison]

So, Big T is unresearchable unless you conviniently need him researchable by an NPC to ambush metagamers? That's questionable DM-ing. Now you can say the players deserve it for trying to defeat Big T at level 8 with metagaming tactics. Now ignoring the possibility that the characters arguably aren't metagaming ("go to the air and attack it by range, find out which attack hurts it" seems doable without cheating), I'd say the DM in questions deserves most of the blame for putting Big T in the general vicinity of level 8 players.

Keeping in mind that an ancient dragon very plausibly has been around since the last time the tarrasque rampaged. Thus, it does make sense that he would know what form it takes to hide as one. Now, an illusionist trying to create one would certainly be more questionable as he doesn't have the lifespan measured in thousands of years that an ancient dragon could have.

[JoeJ]

So, Big T is unresearchable unless you conviniently need him researchable by an NPC to ambush metagamers?

Stop assuming that I'm out to get the players. The two scenarios are completely separate. The tarrasque is unresearchable if that's one of the premises of the campaign. In that campaign, dragons don't disguise themselves as the tarrasque because what would be the point? Nobody would recognize it.

If a dragon is going to impersonate the tarrasque, then of course PCs can research it.

[Boci]

Keeping in mind that an ancient dragon very plausibly has been around since the last time the tarrasque rampaged. Thus, it does make sense that he would know what form it takes to hide as one. Now, an illusionist trying to create one would certainly be more questionable as he doesn't have the lifespan measured in thousands of years that an ancient dragon could have.

Being 1000 years old kinda undermines the whole "Big T is unresearchable". Sure, maybe the ancient blue dragon isn't talking, but there's also outsiders and undead, seems like somone will be able to tell you. Or you can just skip the whole thing by casting Contact Outer Planes.


Stop assuming that I'm out to get the players.

Stop assuming your metagaming player trap is you being out to get the players?

[Bolares]

If the players spend time in the campaign looking for clues of how to stop the tarrasque, there is no reason not to go with it and release some info, if they look in the right places. Now, if the players are metagamming as hell, why wouldn't the DM do the same?

[Boci]

If the players spend time in the campaign looking for clues of how to stop the tarrasque, there is no reason not to go with it and release some info, if they look in the right places. Now, if the players are metagamming as hell, why wouldn't the DM do the same?

Breaks the golden rule of D&D: don't confront an OOC problem (players are metagaming) with an in character consequence (metagaming trap). Sit down and talk with them. Maybe don't use such a metagame abusable monster like the Big T. Personally I think Big T works best likes gods, in that ideally his presence is felt but he remains unstated.

[JoeJ]

Breaks the golden rule of D&D: don't confront an OOC problem (players are metagaming) with an in character consequence (metagaming trap).

There's no such rule. And even if there was, it would be trumped by the rule of poetic justice. If you're going to assume that everybody knows all about the tarrasque - because your character didn't do any research, but they somehow know all about it anyway - then why wouldn't a dragon have that same knowledge, and be able to exploit it?

[Boci]

There's no such rule. And even if there was, it would be trumped by the rule of poetic justice.

In our heads sure (I'm not excluding myself from this by the way, poetic justice is always cool when I picture it in my head), but in real life you are sitting at a table or posting on a forum with other genuine people who are making an effort to engage in the game (even if they have different expectations/preferences for it), and as such, via the social contract, you owe them an attempt of clear dialogue to clarify and solve problems.

[JellyPooga]

Maybe don't use such a metagame abusable monster like the Big T.

That's just it, though...Big T has really obvious weaknesses in game. You don't need to metagame to know how to deal with him. It only takes one Fireball or Scorching Ray to find out he's immune to fire, since when did anyone try using Poison on a bruiser with obviously high Con and the rest is blatantly easy to suss out, except for his immunity to certain mental effects that you probably won't think to use against him anyway, because even if he's your best friend (Charm) he's still the freakin' Tarresque and wants to eat the city.

[RickAllison]

Being 1000 years old kinda undermines the whole "Big T is unresearchable". Sure, maybe the ancient blue dragon isn't talking, but there's also outsiders and undead, seems like somone will be able to tell you. Or you can just skip the whole thing by casting Contact Outer Planes.

I never made any assumptions it would be unable to be researched. A bigger concern is that the research for Big T is unlikely to be as helpful as you make it out to be. From ordinary beings? It is a legend that has leveled kingdoms, that seemed untouched by whatever they threw at it, and that it could even turn magic against its wielder. Much of the "data" is lost in legends and terrified ramblings. Outsiders and undead? Convince them to help you and great! They can be a little more helpful, telling you that it is resistant to magic and unable to be affected by non-magical weapons; might even get a tidbit about the lug being invulnerable to fire. Contact Outer Plane is not as useful as the lack of concrete data makes it difficult to find the right questions. Remember that it only gives you one-word answers that are encouraged by the PHB to be as simple as "yes" or "no".

[Boci]

I never made any assumptions it would be unable to be researched. A bigger concern is that the research for Big T is unlikely to be as helpful as you make it out to be. From ordinary beings? It is a legend that has leveled kingdoms, that seemed untouched by whatever they threw at it, and that it could even turn magic against its wielder. Much of the "data" is lost in legends and terrified ramblings. Outsiders and undead? Convince them to help you and great! They can be a little more helpful, telling you that it is resistant to magic and unable to be affected by non-magical weapons; might even get a tidbit about the lug being invulnerable to fire. Contact Outer Plane is not as useful as the lack of concrete data makes it difficult to find the right questions. Remember that it only gives you one-word answers that are encouraged by the PHB to be as simple as "yes" or "no".

Can it fly?

Does it have any innate ability to harm a target flying above its reach?

Can it be defeated?

Could we reasonably defeated it with the right tactics and approach?

Is there a type of attack available to me that can defeat it?

Is that attack a spell?

Is that spell the one I know as (insert spell name)?

Sure, you won't be that efficient, you'll waste some questions. But yes/no answers go a long way.


That's just it, though...Big T has really obvious weaknesses in game. You don't need to metagame to know how to deal with him. It only takes one Fireball or Scorching Ray to find out he's immune to fire, since when did anyone try using Poison on a bruiser with obviously high Con and the rest is blatantly easy to suss out, except for his immunity to certain mental effects that you probably won't think to use against him anyway, because even if he's your best friend (Charm) he's still the freakin' Tarresque and wants to eat the city.

There's that too yes.

[Bolares]

That's just it, though...Big T has really obvious weaknesses in game. You don't need to metagame to know how to deal with him. It only takes one Fireball or Scorching Ray to find out he's immune to fire, since when did anyone try using Poison on a bruiser with obviously high Con and the rest is blatantly easy to suss out, except for his immunity to certain mental effects that you probably won't think to use against him anyway, because even if he's your best friend (Charm) he's still the freakin' Tarresque and wants to eat the city.

testing it in game is a kind of research. Its absolutelly different from the player comming to play, immediatly casting fly and only sprayng acid splash.

And to the other guy, it may be different here in Brazil, but the golden rule isn't the one you described :smallbiggrin:

[INDYSTAR188]

testing it in game is a kind of research. Its absolutelly different from the player comming to play, immediatly casting fly and only sprayng acid splash.

This was, essentially, my point as well. I'm the kind of DM who would absolutely run with a players desire to research ahead of time. There could be all sorts of fun quests that lead to some in-game character knowledge.

I wonder what the other heros can do while waiting for the Wiz to systematically test and document the success of each type of tactic/attack?

[JoeJ]

This was, essentially, my point as well. I'm the kind of DM who would absolutely run with a players desire to research ahead of time. There could be all sorts of fun quests that lead to some in-game character knowledge.

I wonder what the other heros can do while waiting for the Wiz to systematically test and document the success of each type of tactic/attack?

In the disguised dragon scenario, good research will probably even uncover a footnote mentioning some other dragon that did that once.

In my other scenario, the unknown disaster, there probably won't be any information on how to defeat it directly, but instead the party might learn out about a Macguffin that will send it back to sleep.

[Boci]

In my other scenario, the unknown disaster, there probably won't be any information on how to defeat it directly, but instead the party might learn out about a Macguffin that will send it back to sleep.

So for this scenario I assume it has the custom ability "Divination spells reveal no information about this creature" like the Elder Evil's of 3.5. Does it also have regeneration? Because if not, what's to stop a player from taking to the air, finding themselves safe, and then repeated blasting it with spells until they find a cantrip that doesn't bounce back? Even if you give it a ranged attack, that just adds Improved Invisibility to the required list of spells.

[JoeJ]

So for this scenario I assume it has the custom ability "Divination spells reveal no information about this creature" like the Elder Evil's of 3.5. Does it also have regeneration? Because if not, what's to stop a player from taking to the air, finding themselves safe, and then repeated blasting it with spells until they find a cantrip that doesn't bounce back? Even if you give it a ranged attack, that just adds Improved Invisibility to the required list of spells.

No, this adds "high level divination spells have previously started failing as part of the End of the World that the PCs are trying to avert" to the list.

Nothing will stop the character from trying that. Figuring out what does or doesn't hurt the thing might be a bit of a problem at night, in a storm, when all the city guards who didn't flee in terror are also trying to stop the giant monster rampaging through the city. And by the time it gets tired of your cantrips and goes back into the ocean, how much of the city will be left?

[Boci]

No, this adds "high level divination spells have previously started failing as part of the End of the World that the PCs are trying to avert" to the list.

Fair enough. Personally I'd convert an Eldar Evil, since I find them much more appropriate for such a game idea, and fun, but each to their own.


Nothing will stop the character from trying that. Figuring out what does or doesn't hurt the thing might be a bit of a problem at night, in a storm, when all the city guards who didn't flee in terror are also trying to stop the giant monster rampaging through the city. And by the time it gets tired of your cantrips and goes back into the ocean, how much of the city will be left?

It has 676 HP, and according to a previous poster, average damage is 8.75, double that is party composition has two spell casters able to use this tactics. That's 78 attack, or just under 8 minutes, let's say 10, 5 with two players, and its not going to take that long because you're having Big T retreat before he dies.

Sure, it may not work, but what other tactic is available to the PCs on such short notice?

[JoeJ]

Can it fly?

Does it have any innate ability to harm a target flying above its reach?

Can it be defeated?

Could we reasonably defeated it with the right tactics and approach?

Is there a type of attack available to me that can defeat it?

Is that attack a spell?

Is that spell the one I know as (insert spell name)?


No.
Yes.
Unclear.
Unclear.
Unclear.
No.
No.


Sure, it may not work, but what other tactic is available to the PCs on such short notice?

Rescue as many people as you can. Organize an evacuation; find people that are trapped; use spells to try and shore up buildings that are in danger of collapse; heal the injured; try and distract the tarrasque to lead it away from the most heavily populated areas.

[GanonBoar]

I really hate it when people use the flying above solution. Do you really think that a Tarrasque, which has a strength of 30 for god's sake, can't just pick something up and throw it with his tail? It's not just going to stand there as you slowly whittle away its hitpoints.

[JoeJ]

I really hate it when people use the flying above solution. Do you really think that a Tarrasque, which has a strength of 30 for god's sake, can't just pick something up and throw it with his tail? It's not just going to stand there as you slowly whittle away its hitpoints.

I agree, although I think hurling something that the tarrasque is likely to pick up is probably better modeled as an area attack with a Dex save for half damage than as an attack roll.

[Boci]

I really hate it when people use the flying above solution. Do you really think that a Tarrasque, which has a strength of 30 for god's sake, can't just pick something up and throw it with his tail? It's not just going to stand there as you slowly whittle away its hitpoints.

It has an intelligence 3 and its stat block makes no mention of such an attack, so, yes I do think it won't do that. You're free to house rule otherwise or make a ruling, but by the rules, its highly questionable at best. Also why is it attacking a fly hovering over it?


Rescue as many people as you can. Organize an evacuation; find people that are trapped; use spells to try and shore up buildings that are in danger of collapse; heal the injured; try and distract the tarrasque to lead it away from the most heavily populated areas.

None of those seem as useful as limiting its rampage time to 2-8 minutes (depending on how close the see it)

Also heal the injured? Pretty sure if there are injured people then its not the tarraque we are dealing with.

[JellyPooga]

testing it in game is a kind of research. Its absolutelly different from the player comming to play, immediatly casting fly and only sprayng acid splash.

If that's what someone wants to do, fine. They essentially cheated to cheese an encounter that should have been fun. Their loss, really.

In addition, Acid Splash does at most 4d6 damage a round.
- Big T will probably fail his save.
- That's an average of 14 damage/round.
- 676 divided by 14 is around about 50 rounds.

If a level 17 Wizard wants to take this approach to killing Big T, he's welcome:
- I'll set up an automatic dice roller to roll a d20 and 4d6 50-odd times.
- I might even entertain myself by coding a bunch of IF, AND and OR functions to calculate exactly how many rounds it takes the Wizard to achieve this epic victory.
- All whilst the metagaming player is sitting there waiting for me to do this this of course. I'm not that good with computer code, so I'll probably use Excel and I'm not too good with that either, so this could take an hour or more.
- Once I've got a computer to finally give me a result that I could have gotten quicker by manually rolling dice, I'll sit and decide what Big T did in the hour or so (in-game) it took to kill him.
- I might even take the time to program some more dice rollers to see how many villagers he eats, buildings he destroys and ships he sinks. This could also take several hours (real time) for me to do.
- Some hours of waiting (for the metagamer) later, once I've got the death toll written out, I'll read it to the Wizard with a heart-felt "Well done...you managed to save, well, no-one really but the beast is dead. Did you want to help with the clean-up crew? Oh wait, look at the time; it's getting late. Same time next week?".

I'll have had quite a bit of fun; I enjoy the challenge of programming and mental exercise. The metagamer, on the other hand? Hope he brought a book or something, because I'm not letting him leave the table while I take the time to calculate the consequences of his decision to cheese my encounter....

[RickAllison]

I really hate it when people use the flying above solution. Do you really think that a Tarrasque, which has a strength of 30 for god's sake, can't just pick something up and throw it with his tail? It's not just going to stand there as you slowly whittle away its hitpoints.

Why does it need to use its tail? Based on the image in the MM, its arms are easily capable of picking up rubble and tossing it. Much as its design is similar to a T-Rex, its arms are proportionally much longer and stronger. Admittedly, since it's an improvised weapon it would only be dealing 4dX+10 damage and only have a +10 to-hit unless the DM willed it to gain proficiency.

[Boci]

Why does it need to use its tail? Based on the image in the MM, its arms are easily capable of picking up rubble and tossing it. Much as its design is similar to a T-Rex, its arms are proportionally much longer and stronger. Admittedly, since it's an improvised weapon it would only be dealing 4dX+10 damage and only have a +10 to-hit unless the DM willed it to gain proficiency.

Rock is an attack listed in the creature's profile. A DM can change that, but then you could also give Big T quill attacks like PF did.

Honestly I don't get the obsession with Big T, and wouldn't be too thrilled about a campaign with him as the Big Bag, but each to their own.

[GanonBoar]

It has an intelligence 3 and its stat block makes no mention of such an attack, so, yes I do think it won't do that. You're free to house rule otherwise or make a ruling, but by the rules, its highly questionable at best. Also why is it attacking a fly hovering over it?
Most beasts have an intelligence of 3, yet wolves are still able to use pack tactics, dogs and other animals can carry out simple commands, etc, etc. And yes its statblock makes no mention of such an attack, but it's obvious that the tarrasque would be able to pick stuff up and throw it. You're free to obsess over RAW to the point where you defy basic logic, but it's the difference between the Tarrasque being a monster a level 6 wizard can beat and it actually being a challenge like it's meant to be.

Also, if a fly repeatedly dropped acid on you that was actually hurting you (something a beast like the tarrasque is definitely not used to) you'd be pretty mad at the fly and want to take it out.

[JoeJ]

It has an intelligence 3 and its stat block makes no mention of such an attack, so, yes I do think it won't do that. You're free to house rule otherwise or make a ruling, but by the rules, its highly questionable at best. Also why is it attacking a fly hovering over it?

Don't you swat at flies that hover around you? Especially if they start stinging?


None of those seem as useful as limiting its rampage time to 2-8 minutes (depending on how close the see it)

That's assuming you guessed right about which cantrip to use, and it's one you actually know. Meanwhile, you don't know how much damage its taking, or how many hit points it had to begin with.


Also heal the injured? Pretty sure if there are injured people then its not the tarraque we are dealing with.

Why? Knocking over buildings doesn't always kill everybody inside.

[Boci]

Most beasts have an intelligence of 3, yet wolves are still able to use pack tactics, dogs and other animals can carry out simple commands, etc, etc. And yes its statblock makes no mention of such an attack, but it's obvious that the tarrasque would be able to pick stuff up and throw it. You're free to obsess over RAW to the point where you defy basic logic, but it's the difference between the Tarrasque being a monster a level 6 wizard can beat and it actually being a challenge like it's meant to be.

Oh far from it. Giving him a ranged attack (rock, quill, or breath weapon since I believe the french terrasque was a dragon) helps, but he's still a bit pathetic for his CR. And no, its not defying logic. "Big T can throw stuff" is just as logical as "Big T can't throw stuff, at least not with any speed and accuracy required to make it count as an attack".

Sure you can house rule, but I don't get why. I don't get why Big T deserves all these house rules to make him viable. I'd rather port in an Elder Evil from 3.5, as a DM and a player.

[GanonBoar]

Honestly I don't get the obsession with Big T, and wouldn't be too thrilled about a campaign with him as the Big Bag, but each to their own.
Bar Tiamat, the Tarrasque is THE big bad. Obviously an enemy with human intelligence and elaborate plots and schemes could be more interesting, but the Tarrasque, throughout the editions, had been THE thing to beat.

[Boci]

Bar Tiamat, the Tarrasque is THE big bad. Obviously an enemy with human intelligence and elaborate plots and schemes could be more interesting, but the Tarrasque, throughout the editions, had been THE thing to beat.

Is that really true though? Even going on CR alone, wasn't big T outclassed by the more special outsiders in 3.5? Even in 4th ed, he was tied for most powerful none-god, which dieties more powerful than him. Hell I don't even hear about him outside these threads. "It's tradition" sounds like a pour reason to showhorn in a less interesting monster.

[GanonBoar]

And no, its not defying logic. "Big T can throw stuff" is just as logical as "Big T can't throw stuff, at least not with any speed and accuracy required to make it count as an attack".

How does it make ANY sense that a gargantuan creature that is one of the most physically powerful things in the universe cannot throw things? With 30 Strength, it's clearly possible for it to pick up a large rock and throw it. Even 3 intelligence is enough to know how to throw something. And I don't care how bad its aim is, if a MASSIVE BUILDING comes hurtling by relatively close to you, you WILL get hit.

Sure you can house rule, but I don't get why. I don't get why Big T deserves all these house rules to make him viable. I'd rather port in an Elder Evil from 3.5, as a DM and a player.
It's hardly house-ruling! In the PHB there are rules for improvised weapons, surely these can apply to the Tarrasque! And its basic logic that a massive piece of rubble will do marginally more damage than a bottle or stone.

[Boci]

How does it make ANY sense that a gargantuan creature that is one of the most physically powerful things in the universe cannot throw things?

He lacks the flexibility to lift his arms above his head.

[GanonBoar]

He lacks the flexibility to lift his arms above his head.
Tail. He has one.

[Boci]

Tail. He has one.

Try hitting a bird with a ball by throwing the ball in front of you and hitting it with a baseball bat. That's about as well as that will go with Big T's 11 dex. (Buildings would be shattered by the tail, rather than flying whole).

[RickAllison]

Bar Tiamat, the Tarrasque is THE big bad. Obviously an enemy with human intelligence and elaborate plots and schemes could be more interesting, but the Tarrasque, throughout the editions, had been THE thing to beat.

He's not really a "Big Bad", at least not in the conventional terms. To use TVTropes terms, he would be more the "Giant Space Flea from Nowhere"; he doesn't plan, or create elaborate schemes against the world. He's just there, and huge.

As for the rock, not having it in the statblock does not mean they can't use it as a weapon. They are implemented for ready-to-use statblocks, but there is no reason why they are confined to those attacks. An aarakocra has a javelin in his statblock, but a DM can give him a spear, a pike, or even a greataxe. Big T can pick up a rock and toss it. It might only deal 4d4+10 damage as an improvised weapon, and he might not have proficiency (though he could well be ruled to have such), he just can't use it as part of his Multiattack.

They really should have given him a little more oomph, however...

[joaber]

give Big T. a jetpack with 120ft flying speed and where is your god now?


still worse than Tiamat.

[GanonBoar]

Try hitting a bird with a ball by throwing the ball in front of you and hitting it with a baseball bat. That's about as well as that will go with Big T's 11 dex. (Buildings would be shattered by the tail, rather than flying whole).
If it's a massive ball, easy enough. And a tail is essentially another limb (yes I know that's not true scientifically, but whatever). If the only problem with its arms is that they aren't as flexible, surely something more flexible would be ok.

[Rhaegar]

The first question to ask is why is the Tarrasque where he is at, what is his motivation? Did he just wake up one day and want to go on a rampage, or did some evil cult wake him up and summon him here. If there is an evil cult involved they may work to bring any flying characters down to earth. How high up are any flying characters, the Tarrasque is quite tall with a pretty good vertical leap.

Previous editions of the Tarrasque gave him a burrowing speed equal to his regular movement speed, it would not be completely inappropriate to bring this into a 5e Tarrasque

Also where the adventurers given any particular mission within the Tarrasque encounter beyond just killing the beast, like defending the King.

If the Tarrasque was summoned in by evil cultists might they summon it to a different city after a few minutes giving the players a time crunch, where they can't play it safe for to long.

An encounter with a creature like the Tarrasque shouldn't be nothing more than you run into a Tarrasque in the middle of a grassy plain, fight. A quality narrative behind the encounter with additional objectives can make for a much more interesting encounter, and limit the ability of cheesing the encounter.

[Boci]

An aarakocra has a javelin in his statblock, but a DM can give him a spear, a pike, or even a greataxe. Big T can pick up a rock and toss it. It might only deal 4d4+10 damage as an improvised weapon, and he might not have proficiency (though he could well be ruled to have such), he just can't use it as part of his Multiattack.

Bit of a difference between giving a creature of humanoid level intelligence a tool of equal complexity to one it is already noted as using and giving a creature of beast level intelligence its first one.

Its not as if Big T with ranged weapons is the only way to run him.


If it's a massive ball, easy enough.

No, no it isn't, and I'm pretty sure you know that.

[GanonBoar]

No, no it isn't, and I'm pretty sure you know that.
Yes, yes it is if you factor in the scale of the rubble the Tarrasque would be throwing. When I said massive ball, I didn't mean a football (or soccer ball for you americans), more like a ball the size of a large tent.

[Boci]

Yes, yes it is if you factor in the scale of the rubble the Tarrasque would be throwing. When I said massive ball, I didn't mean a football (or soccer ball for you americans), more like a ball the size of a large tent.

Unless its costume made for him, it will break upon impact with his tail and not travel far.

If you want to give him a ranged attack, fine, but stop pretending its the only way to run him. He's incredibly under CR-ed without a ranged attack and moderately less under CR-ed with one. Running him as a possibly monster is no inherently superior than tweaking his state block to make his mechanics aproach the grandour of his fluff.

[GanonBoar]

If you want to give him a ranged attack, fine, but stop pretending its the only way to run him. He's incredibly under CR-ed without a ranged attack and moderately less under CR-ed with one. Running him as a possibly monster is no inherently superior than tweaking his state block to make his mechanics aproach the grandour of his fluff.
It's not the only way to run him by any means, and I'm not claiming that. I'm saying that it should be a thing anyway, definitely when you have a level 6 wizard who just flies with acid splash. That's just boring without ranged weapons.

[Boci]

It's not the only way to run him by any means, and I'm not claiming that. I'm saying that it should be a thing anyway, definitely when you have a level 6 wizard who just flies with acid splash. That's just boring without ranged weapons.

To me he's much more interesting without ranged weapons, as a puzzle monster, than as an underwhelming meant to be unstoppable force.

[RickAllison]

The first question to ask is why is the Tarrasque where he is at, what is his motivation? Did he just wake up one day and want to go on a rampage, or did some evil cult wake him up and summon him here. If there is an evil cult involved they may work to bring any flying characters down to earth. How high up are any flying characters, the Tarrasque is quite tall with a pretty good vertical leap.

Previous editions of the Tarrasque gave him a burrowing speed equal to his regular movement speed, it would not be completely inappropriate to bring this into a 5e Tarrasque

Also where the adventurers given any particular mission within the Tarrasque encounter beyond just killing the beast, like defending the King.

If the Tarrasque was summoned in by evil cultists might they summon it to a different city after a few minutes giving the players a time crunch, where they can't play it safe for to long.

An encounter with a creature like the Tarrasque shouldn't be nothing more than you run into a Tarrasque in the middle of a grassy plain, fight. A quality narrative behind the encounter with additional objectives can make for a much more interesting encounter, and limit the ability of cheesing the encounter.

That's actually one of the things I've noticed; give Big T some fire support and his ability to be a terror rapidly increases. Heck, Haste alone gives him an even higher AC, doubled speed, and an extra action to either Dash or use on of its attacks (which if it uses the attack beforehand means it can instantly devour a creature who is hit twice when the second attack has advantage). Of course, that does nothing to justify his high CR, as those should be independent of his allies. All told, the tarrasque has the exact opposite problem of the pixie when it comes to CR. The pixie is under-CR because she has low HP and little damage with lots of options outside of CR ratings, while Big T has lots of CR-boosting combat capabilities and no alternative abilities rounding him out.

[GanonBoar]

To me he's much more interesting without ranged weapons, as a puzzle monster, than as an underwhelming meant to be unstoppable force.
If you can honestly tell me that you find an hour long session consisting solely of a level 6 wizard spamming fly and acid splash over and over until the Tarrasque drops dead than a real, intense fight with what is meant to be a powerful monster, I'll step out of this argument right now.

[Boci]

If you can honestly tell me that you find an hour long session consisting solely of a level 6 wizard spamming fly and acid splash over and over until the Tarrasque drops dead than a real, intense fight with what is meant to be a powerful monster, I'll step out of this argument right now.

I can honestly tell you that. Now ideally the fight wouldn't take an hour since the fight requires each side be capable of hurting the other, so once the wizard figures out which cantrip to use we skip ahead, and then the session doesn't end but rather we go on with another quest which doesn't involve Big T.

But, if the two choice were:

1. An hour long fight between the wizard and Big T

and

2. A Big T centric campaign (where he's actually stated, I'd accept him as cultural phenomuna if he stays in the unstated, things humanoids worship realm)

I'm going with option 1.

[GanonBoar]

1. An hour long fight between the wizard and Big T

and

2. A Big T centric campaign (where he's actually stated, I'd accept him as cultural phenomuna if he stays in the unstated, things humanoids worship realm)

I'm going with option 1.
I never said the bit about the campaign being centric around Big T. I said an interesting fight, with tension and strategic thinking. You have a weird idea of fun if you find that worse than the same thing over and over.

[RickAllison]

To me he's much more interesting without ranged weapons, as a puzzle monster, than as an underwhelming meant to be unstoppable force.

As a puzzle monster, the best solution I see would be conscripting the werebear population to hold it down. Find a few with proficiency (or better, Expertise) in Athletics and have a few low-level casters Enlarge them and you have the glorious display of several Huge bears grappling a Gargantuan titan.

[Boci]

I never said the bit about the campaign being centric around Big T. I said an interesting fight, with tension and strategic thinking. You have a weird idea of fun if you find that worse than the same thing over and over.

You have a weird idea of fun if it involves fighting the terrasque. See, I can pretend my preferences make more sense too. Some people don't even like D&D ad wouldn't actually find either option fun.


As a puzzle monster, the best solution I see would be conscripting the werebear population to hold it down. Find a few with proficiency (or better, Expertise) in Athletics and have a few low-level casters Enlarge them and you have the glorious display of several Huge bears grappling a Gargantuan titan.

This too would be much more fun than any conventional battle with Big T. Flying + acid is plan B in case there's no readily available lycanthrope population.

[GanonBoar]

Well, to each their own. I personally love those big fights when you really get absorbed and actually feel the adrenaline, but I guess saying the same thing over and over again ("I cast acid splash" "The Tarrasque fails/succeeds on its save, roll damage") can be fun too(?)

EDIT: But yeah, the werebear solution sounds awesome too.

[RickAllison]

You have a weird idea of fun if it involves fighting the terrasque. See, I can pretend my preferences make more sense too. Some people don't even like D&D ad wouldn't actually find either option fun.



This too would be much more fun than any conventional battle with Big T. Flying + acid is plan B in case there's no readily available lycanthrope population.

I'm actually really liking the idea of a Big T cult with a bunch of casters on his back. They cast oodles of cantrips/other spells to knock sky-bound PCs down while buffing up the dinosaur to his destructive limits. Haste, Fly (terrifying), Greater Invisibility, and Protection from Energy (Acid >:)) would make Big T a much more interesting and difficult encounter that revolves around immobilizing the lug somehow while taking out his cover.

[JellyPooga]

I'm actually really liking the idea of a Big T cult with a bunch of casters on his back.

Shai-haluud...Mua'dib has summoned a Big One!

[JoeJ]

Flying wizard isn't going to be able to attack every round. With the ability to use legendary actions for movement, the tarrasque is much faster (120' while still able to attack) unless something gets in the way to slow it down. And if you give it any kind of ranged attack, the wizard is unlikely to live long enough for cantrips to matter. (And that's not even counting the damage the wizard would probably take from the own spells bouncing back before they hit on the right one to use.)

[Nicrosil]

I do agree that the Tarrasque is a bit lackluster mechanics wise. I have a couple of ways to make him scarier.

The Quick and Dirty Fix: First, give him a ranged attack. Throwing rocks, quills, a breath weapon, whatever. Just something to deal with people far away. Give it a far range as well, 120 feet maybe? Next, give him regeneration. At the start of its turn, the Tarrasque gains 20 hit points. No qualifier about acid or fire damage. This gives him the same "immortality" he did in previous editions. Without a wish spell or divine intervention, you can't kill Big T, you can only hope to occupy him until he hibernates. Next, give him a burrow, swim, and climb speed equal to his speed. Hell, bump it all up to 60 ft a round rather than just 40. Finally, give him proficiency in Dexterity saving throws, for a total of +9 to Dex saves.

The Monstrous Fix: This deviates a bit from established lore of the Tarrasque, but helps reinforce the image of a world ending kaiju. Same stuff as the previous tier, but also give him flight at 80 feet per round, same speed as an ancient dragon. Next, the Tarrasque can cast the haste spell X times per Y. This does not require concentration, nor does the Tarrasque suffer the lethargy effects after the spell ends. For those away from book, that's a +2 AC, double movement speed, advantage on all Dexterity saving throws, and another action that can be only used to Attack with 1 weapon, Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object. Oh, and give him some lair actions too. Breaking and reshaping terrain, another attack, animals gone mad at the presence of the Apocalypse Incarnate, etc. It just happens that the Tarrasque's "lair" is, say, anywhere within six miles of him :smallbiggrin:.

The Radioactive Fix: Again, this is straying away from traditional lore, but it's for the sake of making a more memorable monster. As before, apply the same changes listed previously, but now give him a kill-aura. Over the eons, the Tarrasque has been the target of many spells. Some are reflected back at the caster, but most are absorbed into its thick carapace. This trapped magic has decayed as the Tarrasque has slept, and now emerges as a deadly cloud of radiation and random magic surges. Those who enter within 60 feet of the Tarrasque or start their turn in that range must make a DC 20 Constitution saving throw or gain a level of exhaustion. On initiative count 20, a random spell is cast from the Tarrasque. What spells, I don't know yet. I don't want to use the sorcerer's wild magic surge table, because a lot of it doesn't apply, or is stupid. For those familiar with the serial Worm, this is directly stolen from the Endbringer Behemoth :smalltongue:. I believe that we have passed, or are rapidly approaching, the point where average PC's could kill it, where it's more an element of the plot than a bag of XP.

The Truly Mythic Fix: Credit for this goes to user Sleeper on the RPG.net forums. The reason the Tarrasque's carapace reflects spells is because it is made of mirrors. But it does not only reflect spells. Anyone the Tarrasque can see, and anyone who can see it, are reflected in its hide. The Tarrasque is aware of anything reflected in its hide. These reflections are not just tricks of light, but of spacetime as well. Mechanics wise, this means that anything that the Tarrasque can see, and anything that can see the Tarrasque, is considered within 5 feet of it for the purpose of attacks. This extends beyond mere physical reflections, however. Any image, any text, any thought about the Beast could become a projection of it's form, even as it sleeps deep beneath the surface, listening to the drumming sounds of the Earth's heart...

To close, I think any form of the Tarrasque is viable, as long as it is used appropriately. This monster's name carries weight both in and out of game. Play it up. Tactics and mood setting on the DM's part are vital for any encounter. Fights with dragons are another example of this. Too many times I see people complaining that dragons are easy, or dumb, because they run them like big stupid lizards that fly and breath fire. The Tarrasque is the same way. On paper, or on a big open plain, using only what's written in the books, in the end it will be a forgettable fight. Having it crash through the city in the dead of night, after dozens of other metropolises have been destroyed in a single night, where the PC's are running through collapsing buildings, debating whether they can drive it off or should try to help evacuations, until suddenly a pair of red eyes pierces through the blackness, striking fear in their hearts... that's a memorable encounter.

tl;dr, you can make the Tarrasque even harder, but creativity and proper pacing on the DM's part go a long way.

[JellyPooga]

tl;dr, you can make the Tarrasque even harder, but creativity and proper pacing on the DM's part go a long way.

This. So much this.

If we're talking about improving Big T, though; For me, just giving him epic Regeneration and the Wish clause is enough.

If you want to go for the Kaiju feel, you can't go wrong with a swim speed and a breath weapon...

[RickAllison]

This. So much this.

If we're talking about improving Big T, though; For me, just giving him epic Regeneration and the Wish clause is enough.

If you want to go for the Kaiju feel, you can't go wrong with a swim speed and a breath weapon...

Which really seems like an awesome idea :smallbiggrin: Messes with meta-gamers AND creates an interesting fight!

[Nicrosil]

I'm not too keen on giving him a breath weapon, though. It makes him feel too... dragon-y, you know? A big part of the Tarrasque's lore is the lack of lore. It's supposed to be an anomaly, and giving him a breath weapon makes him feel less like "weird, inexplicable kaiju" and more "beefy dragon without wings." It would have to be a truly exceptional, unique breath weapon for Big T.

[JellyPooga]

Which really seems like an awesome idea :smallbiggrin: Messes with meta-gamers AND creates an interesting fight!

My only concern would be if the PC's decide that the best way to combat this new threat, is to unite the worlds resources and researchers to build a giant fighting machine; a perfect blend of science and magic, designed for the sole purpose of slaying the beast. Especially if it took two Magicians to operate the thing...

I want to play D&D, not Pacific Rim.

[RickAllison]

My only concern would be if the PC's decide that the best way to combat this new threat, is to unite the worlds resources and researchers to build a giant fighting machine; a perfect blend of science and magic, designed for the sole purpose of slaying the beast. Especially if it took two Magicians to operate the thing...

I want to play D&D, not Pacific Rim.

The idea of a campaign focused on convincing an entire world of disparate forces to combine them to combat a common threat actually seems like a great campaign hook. Let the final battle be reminiscent of a lackluster film, the journey there would be similar to Rise of Tiamat except that you must deal with factions that are openly hostile to one another. If that doesn't sound like an interesting D&D campaign, I don't know what else does.

[JellyPooga]

The idea of a campaign focused on convincing an entire world of disparate forces to combine them to combat a common threat actually seems like a great campaign hook. Let the final battle be reminiscent of a lackluster film, the journey there would be similar to Rise of Tiamat except that you must deal with factions that are openly hostile to one another. If that doesn't sound like an interesting D&D campaign, I don't know what else does.

When you put it like that, yeah, that would be an awesome campaign! It's got all the elements; time-pressure, travel, social and physical scenarios. Hmm, might go think about that one now...

[JoeJ]

When you put it like that, yeah, that would be an awesome campaign! It's got all the elements; time-pressure, travel, social and physical scenarios. Hmm, might go think about that one now...

And when the PCs finally win, they discover that the weird hippie druids they've been ignoring for the past five levels were right: excessive use of magic has upset the balance of nature. The tarrasque, which the druids call the Restorer, was supposed to destroy enough arcane magicians to restore that balance. Thanks to the PCs it failed, so now an even worse disaster is on its way.

[RickAllison]

When you put it like that, yeah, that would be an awesome campaign! It's got all the elements; time-pressure, travel, social and physical scenarios. Hmm, might go think about that one now...

Exactly! It is about the journey to the final boss-fight with Big T, not the outcome. I also like the idea of the tarrasque not being alone in its terrorizing. While NPC pilots handle the robot, the party is climbing up and down it trying to keep the miniature monstrosities from destroying it from the inside. It would be necessary to scale up Big T from just 20' in each dimension, but I could see a God of War-esque encounter where the PCs fight to protect the robot with it being actual terrain to fight on. Then, when the robot is starting to collapse from the damage suffered in futile battle against kaiju-rex, the party has to cross over to the titan and destroy it from the inside.

I REALLY want to make this happen now :smallbiggrin:

[Aetol]

My only concern would be if the PC's decide that the best way to combat this new threat, is to unite the worlds resources and researchers to build a giant fighting machine; a perfect blend of science and magic, designed for the sole purpose of slaying the beast. Especially if it took two Magicians to operate the thing...

I want to play D&D, not Pacific Rim.

That sounds awesome, actually. :smallbiggrin:

A gigantic iron golem, crafted by dwarves, held together by elven magic. Powered by a core of bound fire elementals. Animating the damn thing requires the constant attention of two wizards. And what is it for ? For brawling the freaking Tarrasque. Tell me that isn't awesome.

[INDYSTAR188]

That sounds awesome, actually. :smallbiggrin:

A gigantic iron golem, crafted by dwarves, held together by elven magic. Powered by a core of bound fire elementals. Animating the damn thing requires the constant attention of two wizards. And what is it for ? For brawling the freaking Tarrasque. Tell me that isn't awesome.

Of COURSE thats awesome! To circle back though, what levels would you run it?

[RickAllison]

Of COURSE thats awesome! To circle back though, what levels would you run it?

For something of that scale? Getting more into level 15. That is with a significantly upgraded tarrasque, however.

[JellyPooga]

Of COURSE thats awesome! To circle back though, what levels would you run it?

For something of that scale? Getting more into level 15. That is with a significantly upgraded tarrasque, however.

Well, given that the PC's aren't directly fighting Big T themselves...you could run this at any level at which you think the PC's are significant enough a presence to convince world-leaders of the threat. Heck, they could just be the messengers to start with...

[Lines]

I do agree that the Tarrasque is a bit lackluster mechanics wise. I have a couple of ways to make him scarier.

The Quick and Dirty Fix: First, give him a ranged attack. Throwing rocks, quills, a breath weapon, whatever. Just something to deal with people far away. Give it a far range as well, 120 feet maybe? Next, give him regeneration. At the start of its turn, the Tarrasque gains 20 hit points. No qualifier about acid or fire damage. This gives him the same "immortality" he did in previous editions. Without a wish spell or divine intervention, you can't kill Big T, you can only hope to occupy him until he hibernates. Next, give him a burrow, swim, and climb speed equal to his speed. Hell, bump it all up to 60 ft a round rather than just 40. Finally, give him proficiency in Dexterity saving throws, for a total of +9 to Dex saves.
Still doesn't stop people burning through saves, polymorphing the tarrasque into a worm then burying him deep underground and waiting for him to suffocate.


The Monstrous Fix: This deviates a bit from established lore of the Tarrasque, but helps reinforce the image of a world ending kaiju. Same stuff as the previous tier, but also give him flight at 80 feet per round, same speed as an ancient dragon. Next, the Tarrasque can cast the haste spell X times per Y. This does not require concentration, nor does the Tarrasque suffer the lethargy effects after the spell ends. For those away from book, that's a +2 AC, double movement speed, advantage on all Dexterity saving throws, and another action that can be only used to Attack with 1 weapon, Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object. Oh, and give him some lair actions too. Breaking and reshaping terrain, another attack, animals gone mad at the presence of the Apocalypse Incarnate, etc. It just happens that the Tarrasque's "lair" is, say, anywhere within six miles of him :smallbiggrin:.
A bit scarier, but a druid or two pixie storming him should still work fine.


The Radioactive Fix: Again, this is straying away from traditional lore, but it's for the sake of making a more memorable monster. As before, apply the same changes listed previously, but now give him a kill-aura. Over the eons, the Tarrasque has been the target of many spells. Some are reflected back at the caster, but most are absorbed into its thick carapace. This trapped magic has decayed as the Tarrasque has slept, and now emerges as a deadly cloud of radiation and random magic surges. Those who enter within 60 feet of the Tarrasque or start their turn in that range must make a DC 20 Constitution saving throw or gain a level of exhaustion. On initiative count 20, a random spell is cast from the Tarrasque. What spells, I don't know yet. I don't want to use the sorcerer's wild magic surge table, because a lot of it doesn't apply, or is stupid. For those familiar with the serial Worm, this is directly stolen from the Endbringer Behemoth :smalltongue:. I believe that we have passed, or are rapidly approaching, the point where average PC's could kill it, where it's more an element of the plot than a bag of XP.
STILL not immune to mass polymorph. The Endbringers had an additional DM fiat style power of having most things that should logically end the encounter instantly not work on them. If there was a cape with a polymorph power, they'd find it didn't work on Behemoth, but the Tarrasque has no such protection other than saves and legendary saves which can be burned through.


The Truly Mythic Fix: Credit for this goes to user Sleeper on the RPG.net forums. The reason the Tarrasque's carapace reflects spells is because it is made of mirrors. But it does not only reflect spells. Anyone the Tarrasque can see, and anyone who can see it, are reflected in its hide. The Tarrasque is aware of anything reflected in its hide. These reflections are not just tricks of light, but of spacetime as well. Mechanics wise, this means that anything that the Tarrasque can see, and anything that can see the Tarrasque, is considered within 5 feet of it for the purpose of attacks. This extends beyond mere physical reflections, however. Any image, any text, any thought about the Beast could become a projection of it's form, even as it sleeps deep beneath the surface, listening to the drumming sounds of the Earth's heart...
Much scarier, but if you want it sleeping beneath the earth you're going to need to make it able to breathe dirt or not need to breathe, otherwise it's still getting buried. Which isn't the only solution, you can still go dump the polymorph'd worm tarrasque into space or a volcano or something, but I've always liked the irony of burying a creature that is said to sleep beneath the earth but still suffocates underground.


To close, I think any form of the Tarrasque is viable, as long as it is used appropriately. This monster's name carries weight both in and out of game. Play it up. Tactics and mood setting on the DM's part are vital for any encounter. Fights with dragons are another example of this. Too many times I see people complaining that dragons are easy, or dumb, because they run them like big stupid lizards that fly and breath fire. The Tarrasque is the same way. On paper, or on a big open plain, using only what's written in the books, in the end it will be a forgettable fight. Having it crash through the city in the dead of night, after dozens of other metropolises have been destroyed in a single night, where the PC's are running through collapsing buildings, debating whether they can drive it off or should try to help evacuations, until suddenly a pair of red eyes pierces through the blackness, striking fear in their hearts... that's a memorable encounter.

tl;dr, you can make the Tarrasque even harder, but creativity and proper pacing on the DM's part go a long way.
Dragons are ancient and very intelligent, any DM that has a dragon just land and die while going toe to toe with a barbarian needs to hand in his DMs screen. Tactics wise however, the Tarrasque is as intelligent as your average dog - it really is a big boring pile of hit points and damage.

[JellyPooga]

Still doesn't stop people burning through saves, polymorphing the tarrasque into a worm then burying him deep underground and waiting for him to suffocate.

you can still go dump the polymorph'd worm tarrasque into space or a volcano or something, but I've always liked the irony of burying a creature that is said to sleep beneath the earth but still suffocates underground.

What gives you the impression that Big T literally sleeps "buried"? The description says it sleeps in its underground lair. Drow live beneath the earth and they suffocate just fine when you cut off their air supply too; would it be an ironic death to bury them alive as well?

I wouldn't fancy my chances throwing the Worm-Tarresque into a volcano...as soon as it takes 1hp of damage, it would change back into the Immune-to-Fire Big T and although he doesn't have a Swim Speed, there's nothing in his description that says he can't swim, in lava or otherwise...

On the subject of burying Worm-Tarresque; how deep did you want to go? The worm still has Big T's personality, so he still wants to devour the world; I don't imagine he'd be content to sit at the bottom of the grave you've dug him and I'm fairly sure worms have a burrow speed (albeit a very slow one). Once the worm hits 0hp from suffocation or the spell expires, he turns back into Big T, at which point he then has 12 minutes (11 minutes+10 rounds) to get back to the surface before he dies, not to mention the huge (well...Gargantuan) displacement of earth that would result from his transformation. Again, just because he hasn't got a burrow speed, doesn't mean he can't dig and he is pretty strong...

Chucking him into space could work, I guess, but that sounds like the set up for another campaign as some doomsday cult tries to get him back out of orbit.

I'm not convinced that the Pixie-rush Polymorph method is as infallible a foil to Big T as you might think.

[Nicrosil]

@Lines Those are valid points that I didn't consider, so thank you for bringing those up. Since we're already homebrewing the hell out of the Tarrasque, giving him immunity to shapechanging effects, an Intelligence of 20, and removing the need to sleep, eat, drink, or breathe should shore up the weaknesses you pointed out.

As for the Endbringer comparison and DM fiat, I totally agree. Endbringers as described in Worm can't be things the players fight in games like D&D; they rely too much on DM fiat. As elements of the plot, or of the world at large, they would work. I believe the same applies to the Tarrasque. If you and your players go into the fight knowing that it can't be killed, that their duty as high level heroes is damage control, where you don't even necessarily keep track of its hit points, the Tarrasque becomes as scary as its hype makes it out to be.

Now, your mileage may vary of course. I know that my style of DMing is much more narrative based. We use milestone experience, theater of the mind combat, and sometimes we go full sessions without rolling for initiative. If you and your group prefer more simulationist combat, take everything I said with a grain of salt.

I was just spitballing basic ideas in my original post, and again, thanks for the feedback. :D

[Lines]

@Lines Those are valid points that I didn't consider, so thank you for bringing those up. Since we're already homebrewing the hell out of the Tarrasque, giving him immunity to shapechanging effects, an Intelligence of 20, and removing the need to sleep, eat, drink, or breathe should shore up the weaknesses you pointed out.

As for the Endbringer comparison and DM fiat, I totally agree. Endbringers as described in Worm can't be things the players fight in games like D&D; they rely too much on DM fiat. As elements of the plot, or of the world at large, they would work. I believe the same applies to the Tarrasque. If you and your players go into the fight knowing that it can't be killed, that their duty as high level heroes is damage control, where you don't even necessarily keep track of its hit points, the Tarrasque becomes as scary as its hype makes it out to be.

Now, your mileage may vary of course. I know that my style of DMing is much more narrative based. We use milestone experience, theater of the mind combat, and sometimes we go full sessions without rolling for initiative. If you and your group prefer more simulationist combat, take everything I said with a grain of salt.

I was just spitballing basic ideas in my original post, and again, thanks for the feedback. :D

Not a problem, but I'd honestly just make a new monster rather than the Tarrasque here. At this point we're giving him quills, a breath weapon, removing the need to eat, sleep, drink or breathe, 17 extra intelligence, immunity to shapechanging effects, regeneration 20, 60ft of all movement speeds and that's only the first fix - in what way, except for being big and tough and having reflective carapace, does it have anything to do with the 5e Tarrasque at that point? Seems you'd be better off just making an entirely new monster, calling it the Tarrasque when it's now (flight, breath weapon, intelligence) basically just a dragon seems pretty silly. Just make it a super over the top dragon instead.

[Lines]

I wouldn't fancy my chances throwing the Worm-Tarresque into a volcano...as soon as it takes 1hp of damage, it would change back into the Immune-to-Fire Big T and although he doesn't have a Swim Speed, there's nothing in his description that says he can't swim, in lava or otherwise...
Forgot he was fire immune. Volcano's a bad idea, find some other environmental hazard - space, deep underground, bottom of the ocean.


On the subject of burying Worm-Tarresque; how deep did you want to go? The worm still has Big T's personality, so he still wants to devour the world; I don't imagine he'd be content to sit at the bottom of the grave you've dug him and I'm fairly sure worms have a burrow speed (albeit a very slow one). Once the worm hits 0hp from suffocation or the spell expires, he turns back into Big T, at which point he then has 12 minutes (11 minutes+10 rounds) to get back to the surface before he dies, not to mention the huge (well...Gargantuan) displacement of earth that would result from his transformation. Again, just because he hasn't got a burrow speed, doesn't mean he can't dig and he is pretty strong...
Depth wise, turn into an earth elemental with a burrow speed of 30 feet. Even tunneling at an angle, taking the same time back over to fill it back in and leaving yourself some time to spare, that's hundreds of metres underground. Once he's there, he's trapped forever - if you leave him 300 metres down, he's directly under 9275 tonnes of earth, while the Tarrasque has a carrying capacity of .2 of a tonne - he can likely push a lot more than he can carry, but he would be incapable of moving even slightly while trapped under nearly a million kilos of dirt (and that's just what's directly above him, you'd need to shift more than that to escape). The tarrasque might be strong, but he is not anywhere close to that strong. Nothing is, even in D&D.

I'm not sure exactly how far under the earth you could burrow and fill in in the time allotted, but druids can wild shape into earth elementals and can either summon or have pixies transform into giant badgers (though the druid whose pixie polymorphed the Tarrasque will need to maintain the concentration on that, so may have a number of pixies already accounted for), 30ft burrow speed while the 10ft burrow badgers fill it in behind you suggests hundreds of metres, I don't want to say kilometres in case that turns out to be incorrect.


Chucking him into space could work, I guess, but that sounds like the set up for another campaign as some doomsday cult tries to get him back out of orbit.
I'm not convinced that the Pixie-rush Polymorph method is as infallible a foil to Big T as you might think.
How? The tarrasque is going to suffocate in a few minutes, they're going to have to bring him back really quickly.

[JellyPooga]

Depth wise, turn into an earth elemental with a burrow speed of 30 feet.

Fair enough. The question was genuine, rather than an attempt to dismiss the idea. As I said, I'm not convinced of the idea; which leaves the option to convince me! Taking him down-under with a burrow speed should probably do the trick, yes.


How? The tarrasque is going to suffocate in a few minutes, they're going to have to bring him back really quickly.

Nah. It's cold in space and I'm fairly sure DM fiat could see its way to the Tarresque surviving cryogenic freezing. He'd be dead, yes; just another satellite made of the frozen corpse of a monstrosity. He could remain that way for centuries, perfectly preserved. When the Cult manage to "bring him home", they defrost him (in a volcano, perhaps!) and he goes on his merry rampage. As I say, it sounds like the set up for a Tarresque plot, which doesn't have to abide by the rules!

[Lines]

Fair enough. The question was genuine, rather than an attempt to dismiss the idea. As I said, I'm not convinced of the idea; which leaves the option to convince me! Taking him down-under with a burrow speed should probably do the trick, yes.



Nah. It's cold in space and I'm fairly sure DM fiat could see its way to the Tarresque surviving cryogenic freezing. He'd be dead, yes; just another satellite made of the frozen corpse of a monstrosity. He could remain that way for centuries, perfectly preserved. When the Cult manage to "bring him home", they defrost him (in a volcano, perhaps!) and he goes on his merry rampage. As I say, it sounds like the set up for a Tarresque plot, which doesn't have to abide by the rules!

Main problem is why? If you're going to break the rules for some end of times plot, give the elemental evils splatbook a look - the mechanics would need some work to port over, but the ideas are solid. The tarrasque is a big, boring ball of hit points and damage with 3 intelligence, if you're going to go crazy why not at least do so with something interesting?

[Aetol]

Regarding the lack of ranged attack : what about a roar ? The Tarrasque roars in your general direction, and you must make a Wisdom save or be frightened and lose concentration. That should take care of (some of) those pesky flyers.

EDIT : I forgot it had Frightful Presence, which is pretty much that. Still, add the "breaks concentration" clause, and remove the immunity clause at least for this, and using Fly is no longer a game-breaker.

[JellyPooga]

Main problem is why? If you're going to break the rules for some end of times plot, give the elemental evils splatbook a look - the mechanics would need some work to port over, but the ideas are solid. The tarrasque is a big, boring ball of hit points and damage with 3 intelligence, if you're going to go crazy why not at least do so with something interesting?

By "interesting" I take it you mean that it has some kind of spellcasting or magical abilities, godlike powers, intelligence, that sort of thing, yes?

Maybe the Cult isn't trying to bring about the end-times, but just destroy a civilisation. A big, dumb ball of HP and damage is just the sort of "weapon" I imagine a Cult would try to control.

The Elder Evils and their ilk are...less pliable, as a rule. Intelligent bad-guys have their place as the masterminds behind their own plots. The Tarresque fills a different niche, or it's supposed to anyway; it's the unstoppable force of mindless destruction, the "thing" that gets out of the control of the Mastermind and turns on its creator/summoner, the monster that just. won't. die.

If Big T had smarts and spellcasting or super groovy special powers, he wouldn't be Big T. As I said above, I don't think he needs anything particularly special; I'd be happy with him just having his epic Regen and the Wish clause back; it's enough to make him the world-devourer he's supposed to be. Even if you Poly-worm him and bury him underground, or throw him into space, he can still be dug up or otherwise retrieved from his incarceration and he'll just get right back up and start chowing down on cities again.

[Regitnui]

Exactly how high is this theoretical acid splashing wizard actually flying? Because if an elephant can rear up to knock a tree over. I'm pretty sure that Big T could do the same to swat a wizard out of the air. And even if he misses the wizard, how much air is being moved by the thing's massive claw? Enough to force a dexterity save or break concentration.

As for a ranged attack; Yes, giants have "throw rock" in their stat blocks. They don't have fearful presence even though I'm pretty sure the standard reaction of the average person to seeing a creature twice their size coming towards them is "run!" If a giant can be intimidating without fearful presence, surely our favourite monstrosity can send rubble flying by swinging its limbs around?

Neither of those are house rules. Just logic applied to Big T's mere existence. Who's to say Big T even notices humans? Cities are just enough rock and organics piled up in one place to be an appetizing snack. It doesn't matter to it that creatures live there.

[Lines]

By "interesting" I take it you mean that it has some kind of spellcasting or magical abilities, godlike powers, intelligence, that sort of thing, yes?
Depends on the evil. Atropus is an unborn god that floats the void and eats worlds, the Hulks of Zoretha are ancient beings of unknown providence that once they awaken from stone will breed and overtake everything, the leviathan is a truly massive chaotic serpent slumbering at the bottom of the sea that causes hurricanes and volcanos etc when it dreams and will destroy the world if it truly wakes, Pandorym is an entity from the space between planes lured long ago to the world as a weapon to threaten the gods, its mind and body separated but the mages who did so destroyed for their hubris, a kolyarut seeking to ensure the bargain made long ago is completed seeks to reunite the two. Ragnorra, mother of monsters is a vast but unconscious intelligence that travels the planes spreading life, the Worm the walks walks and does the worm, I've gotten bored of typing this all out. Some have intelligence, some godlike powers, all make the world tremble at their approach (Atropus causes healing to become less and less effective, wounds to not close and eventually the dead to rise as it approaches, etc), all are bad news. Can't think of a use for the tarrasque as an engine of the apocalypse that one of the Elder Evils couldn't be used better for.


Maybe the Cult isn't trying to bring about the end-times, but just destroy a civilisation. A big, dumb ball of HP and damage is just the sort of "weapon" I imagine a Cult would try to control.
Problem is the Tarrasque can't do that, unless the NPCs are idiots and there are no PCs. It can't fly, can't do anything at range, is int 3, etc - it has enough easily exploitable flaws that to change it enough to make it a kingdom level threat you end up with something that isn't the Tarrasque any more. It is, at its heart, a giant angry dog that reflects some spells, and that's neither interesting nor CR30 worthy.


The Elder Evils and their ilk are...less pliable, as a rule. Intelligent bad-guys have their place as the masterminds behind their own plots. The Tarresque fills a different niche, or it's supposed to anyway; it's the unstoppable force of mindless destruction, the "thing" that gets out of the control of the Mastermind and turns on its creator/summoner, the monster that just. won't. die.
Main problem is if it gets out of control, they weren't a mastermind - it's a big, int 3 creature. It'll run around, it'll eat and smash, that's pretty much all it'll do and that's easy to account for. I just don't get why anyone wants a huge dumb creature in a world filled with all kinds of genuinely scary threats - if you want something unthinking and big, why not just have a natural disaster or something?


Wish[/I] clause back; it's enough to make him the world-devourer he's supposed to be. Even if you Poly-worm him and bury him underground, or throw him into space, he can still be dug up or otherwise retrieved from his incarceration and he'll just get right back up and start chowing down on cities again.
Regen and the wish clause gets a little closer, especially now that he can't have an allip be summoned and incapacitate him instantly. As I type this, I think the problem is I don't understand what he's for - an ancient dragon, a giant volcano, the kraken, an army of demons, an undead apocalypse or whatever you can think of fills the same niches without being, again, a giant angry dog with spell reflect.

[Lines]

Exactly how high is this theoretical acid splashing wizard actually flying? Because if an elephant can rear up to knock a tree over. I'm pretty sure that Big T could do the same to swat a wizard out of the air. And even if he misses the wizard, how much air is being moved by the thing's massive claw? Enough to force a dexterity save or break concentration.

As for a ranged attack; Yes, giants have "throw rock" in their stat blocks. They don't have fearful presence even though I'm pretty sure the standard reaction of the average person to seeing a creature twice their size coming towards them is "run!" If a giant can be intimidating without fearful presence, surely our favourite monstrosity can send rubble flying by swinging its limbs around?

Neither of those are house rules. Just logic applied to Big T's mere existence. Who's to say Big T even notices humans? Cities are just enough rock and organics piled up in one place to be an appetizing snack. It doesn't matter to it that creatures live there.

The Tarrasque has int 3, you pretty much need primate intelligence to throw things which the Tarrasque does not have. And in any case even if he could, improvised items have a range of 60 feet, you can easily outrange him by having a character with a +1 bow fly or ride a broom or pet or something. Fearful presence wise, it doesn't mean they aren't scary, it just means that they're scary enough to provoke fear beyond someones ability to control themselves - a giant might be scary, but they're not scary enough to provoke that kind of reaction.

Incidentally I made a maths error before, 300 metres down would have 14493 tonnes of earth directly on top of the Tarrasque.

[Aetol]

The Tarrasque has int 3, you pretty much need primate intelligence to throw things which the Tarrasque does not have. And in any case even if he could, improvised items have a range of 60 feet, you can easily outrange him by having a character with a +1 bow fly or ride a broom or pet or something.

Improvised ranged attacks have a range of 60 feet... for a (Medium or Small) humanoid. The Tarrasque is Gargantuan. If it's going to throw stuff, I'm sure it can manage to throw farther than it is long.

No, the objection I have against making it throw things is that it's presumably just not built for that. It's not obvious, but we humans have evolved to have an excellent throwing arm. Other apes can't throw stuff as far and as accurately as we can. By extension, we can safely assume that all humanoids (and monstrous humanoids) in the MM possess the same ability, but the Tarrasque ? That's less likely.

[INDYSTAR188]

Still doesn't stop people burning through saves, polymorphing the tarrasque into a worm then burying him deep underground and waiting for him to suffocate.


A bit scarier, but a druid or two pixie storming him should still work fine.


STILL not immune to mass polymorph. The Endbringers had an additional DM fiat style power of having most things that should logically end the encounter instantly not work on them. If there was a cape with a polymorph power, they'd find it didn't work on Behemoth, but the Tarrasque has no such protection other than saves and legendary saves which can be burned through.


Much scarier, but if you want it sleeping beneath the earth you're going to need to make it able to breathe dirt or not need to breathe, otherwise it's still getting buried. Which isn't the only solution, you can still go dump the polymorph'd worm tarrasque into space or a volcano or something, but I've always liked the irony of burying a creature that is said to sleep beneath the earth but still suffocates underground.


Dragons are ancient and very intelligent, any DM that has a dragon just land and die while going toe to toe with a barbarian needs to hand in his DMs screen. Tactics wise however, the Tarrasque is as intelligent as your average dog - it really is a big boring pile of hit points and damage.

When I think of the tarrasque I do not think of a dragon-like monster. I think of a non-humanoid form of Doomsday (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_%28comics%29). Like Doomsday, the tarrasque's biggest (traditionally) strengths are it's regeneration, resistance to damage and it's physical might and power. I don't think you need to customize the monster more than the 'basic' plan presented in the above post; give it back regeneration, give it the wish clause and some way of dealing ranged damage.

If you think a 3 intelligence is too 'stupid' to use a rock/wagon/roof to defend itself from a ranged attack then that's fine, but I disagree. My dog is smart enough to hedge my daughters away from the street when they're out front playing ball. He can follow commands and even understands when I'm pointing at something that I want him to look there. He's not a mindless brute, he has some form of intelligence. If he was physically capable I'm sure I could train him to throw something. Does it say in the Monster Manual what INT score you need to use tools/weapons?

All of your solutions proposed above might trivialize this BBEG or they might not. I'm not certain the pixies are as effective as you think but I respect the tactic. You say to spam spells until you beat his legendary resistances... but he has three of those and advantage on saves. Also, polymorph only lasts an hour, so you need to dig quickly or use a magic solution. I also think, again, we're using our intimate knowledge of the monsters stat block to come up with 'got ya' ways to beat the DM's BBEG. In a real 'in-game' scenario, presumably, your character wouldn't know if the tarrasque can breath underground or not, if it's immune to fire or that it has the ability to reflect some spells (would your character even know space is a thing?). I just think in the context of 'theory crafting a perfect pc response' your comments make a lot of sense but in-game that probably wouldn't be the case.

[Boci]

I also think, again, we're using our intimate knowledge of the monsters stat block to come up with 'got ya' ways to beat the DM's BBEG. In a real 'in-game' scenario, presumably, your character wouldn't know if the tarrasque can breath underground or not, if it's immune to fire or that it has the ability to reflect some spells (would your character even know space is a thing?). I just think in the context of 'theory crafting a perfect pc response' your comments make a lot of sense but in-game that probably wouldn't be the case.

But the fact that a perfect response can be crafted is a big mark against Big T's ciability in a campaign. If the BBEG's an ancient dragon, readig or already knowing the stateblock doesn't help terribly, but with Big T it does. So a DM running Big T against most veterans players is basically asking them to pretend to be ignorant, which is impossible to properly.

[JellyPooga]

As I type this, I think the problem is I don't understand what he's for.

He serves a purpose that none of those things you mention fill.

- An Ancient Dragon; is big, scary and, most importantly, intelligent. Dragons fill the "every threat" niche; they're both bruiser and mastermind. Optionally they're spellcasters too.

- A giant volcano; is a natural disaster, not a creature. Not sure what this is doing on the list, because you can't "fight" a volcano. Yes, it serves the same purpose of mass, indiscriminate destruction, but stopping a volcano is very different to stopping a creature.

- The Kraken; serves the exact same purpose as the Tarresque...except he does it in the sea. Big T is the Land-Kraken, if you will. If you can see the point of the Kraken, you know the purpose of Big T.

- An army of demons, an undead apocalypse; These are armies; differentiated by numbers, not size. The threat they pose is very different and the method of controlling them is different too. You might summon and bind a Demon and command him to bring his legions to the mortal realm, but that doesn't give you control over the army, only its general. If you control the Tarresque, you control the Tarresque.


Problem is the Tarrasque can't do that, unless the NPCs are idiots and there are no PCs. It can't fly, can't do anything at range, is int 3, etc - it has enough easily exploitable flaws that to change it enough to make it a kingdom level threat you end up with something that isn't the Tarrasque any more.

I agree that as-written it's not much of a threat in 5ed. I don't think you need to give it all the bells and whistles to be that threat, though. It's missing that "unstoppable" nature. As it stands, any mook can whittle away its HP until it's dead. A high enough level spellslinger can also use Polymorph cheese to get rid of him. Does adding Regeneration and immunity to Polymorph effects make him "unrecognisable"? Do adding those things make him a much more significant threat?

You don't need high Intelligence or a fly speed or ranged attacks or death-auras or breath weapons to make the ultimate bruiser scary. You just need to exaggerate what he's already got; which is supposed to be the ability to take the worlds worst punishment and shrug it off as nothing. If everything you throw at it does nothing, then he's free to ignore you and go on his rampage. Being ignored is scary when you're used to greater demons balking in your presence.

How do you stop the unstoppable force? This is the question the Tarresque is supposed to ask. All the rules need to do is make him that unstoppable force. Currently they do not, but they're nearly there; a few tweaks and we're golden, IMO.

[Lines]

Improvised ranged attacks have a range of 60 feet... for a (Medium or Small) humanoid. The Tarrasque is Gargantuan. If it's going to throw stuff, I'm sure it can manage to throw farther than it is long.

No, the objection I have against making it throw things is that it's presumably just not built for that. It's not obvious, but we humans have evolved to have an excellent throwing arm. Other apes can't throw stuff as far and as accurately as we can. By extension, we can safely assume that all humanoids (and monstrous humanoids) in the MM possess the same ability, but the Tarrasque ? That's less likely.

It's not only the arms, it's the brain. It actually needs quite a lot of processing power that the Tarrasque clearly lacks.

[INDYSTAR188]

But the fact that a perfect response can be crafted is a big mark against Big T's ciability in a campaign. If the BBEG's an ancient dragon, readig or already knowing the stateblock doesn't help terribly, but with Big T it does. So a DM running Big T against most veterans players is basically asking them to pretend to be ignorant, which is impossible to properly.

Again, I have a thing about character v player knowledge. If I have an encounter with a troll and a PC's first response is 'I use my torch to burn it!' I immediately ask how their PC knows that. If they are a monster hunter, scholar or live in a troll-infested area where it would be common knowledge then fine, otherwise you don't know that is the approach to take. I think it's the same thing here. If you roll up a barbarian with an 8 intelligence it's on you the player to RP him as 'ignorant' not as an avatar of yourself in the game world that's super strong, which is NOT impossible to do. It's playing the game in-character. When you play a character in-game you're not automatically supposed to know all of the stat block features and abilities of a creature you're facing, so I don't think it's too much to ask a player to pretend their character might not know all the tarrasques vulnerabilities.

[Lines]

He serves a purpose that none of those things you mention fill.

- An Ancient Dragon; is big, scary and, most importantly, intelligent. Dragons fill the "every threat" niche; they're both bruiser and mastermind. Optionally they're spellcasters too.

- A giant volcano; is a natural disaster, not a creature. Not sure what this is doing on the list, because you can't "fight" a volcano. Yes, it serves the same purpose of mass, indiscriminate destruction, but stopping a volcano is very different to stopping a creature.

- The Kraken; serves the exact same purpose as the Tarresque...except he does it in the sea. Big T is the Land-Kraken, if you will. If you can see the point of the Kraken, you know the purpose of Big T.

- An army of demons, an undead apocalypse; These are armies; differentiated by numbers, not size. The threat they pose is very different and the method of controlling them is different too. You might summon and bind a Demon and command him to bring his legions to the mortal realm, but that doesn't give you control over the army, only its general. If you control the Tarresque, you control the Tarresque.
Ancient dragon wise it's not really optional, any ancient dragon survives to become an ancient dragon by being a spellcaster because otherwise it gets destroyed by the dragons that did study wizardry or sorcery or what have you and want its hoard. You've explained yourself exactly what a volcano's doing on the list - you can't fight a volcano, and you can't fight the unstoppable creature you're envisioning. They fill the exact same niche.

Kraken wise, no it doesn't - it's an absolute genius unlike the Tarrasque, so it'll be luring you to it and then using the ocean against you. And undead army wise typically if you control the head, you control the army.



I agree that as-written it's not much of a threat in 5ed. I don't think you need to give it all the bells and whistles to be that threat, though. It's missing that "unstoppable" nature. As it stands, any mook can whittle away its HP until it's dead. A high enough level spellslinger can also use Polymorph cheese to get rid of him. Does adding Regeneration and immunity to Polymorph effects make him "unrecognisable"? Do adding those things make him a much more significant threat?

You don't need high Intelligence or a fly speed or ranged attacks or death-auras or breath weapons to make the ultimate bruiser scary. You just need to exaggerate what he's already got; which is supposed to be the ability to take the worlds worst punishment and shrug it off as nothing. If everything you throw at it does nothing, then he's free to ignore you and go on his rampage. Being ignored is scary when you're used to greater demons balking in your presence.

How do you stop the unstoppable force? This is the question the Tarresque is supposed to ask. All the rules need to do is make him that unstoppable force. Currently they do not, but they're nearly there; a few tweaks and we're golden, IMO.

Regeneration works, it should have regeneration anyway, but without the things you mentioned it has no way of dealing with foes that just kite it, it only takes a few to outdamage its regeneration. Personally I'd make it healed by the damage it does, that way you have to try to make it target you, if you try to just plink it down while it kills a city it heals hundreds of HP per turn.


Again, I have a thing about character v player knowledge. If I have an encounter with a troll and a PC's first response is 'I use my torch to burn it!' I immediately ask how their PC knows that. If they are a monster hunter, scholar or live in a troll-infested area where it would be common knowledge then fine, otherwise you don't know that is the approach to take. I think it's the same thing here. If you roll up a barbarian with an 8 intelligence it's on you the player to RP him as 'ignorant' not as an avatar of yourself in the game world that's super strong, which is NOT impossible to do. It's playing the game in-character. When you play a character in-game you're not automatically supposed to know all of the stat block features and abilities of a creature you're facing, so I don't think it's too much to ask a player to pretend their character might not know all the tarrasques vulnerabilities.

Figuring out that you can kill what is essentially a giant angry dog by not letting it catch you is pretty damn simple. This kind of level is filled with threats like balors and ancient dragons, I imagine a creature that can't think, cast spells, fly, use ranged attacks or in any way harm you if you just stay out of range would come as a massive relief to a high level adventurer. No huge stress, you just need to get on your broom, take some arrows and enjoy the giant, angry turkey shoot.

[Boci]

Again, I have a thing about character v player knowledge. If I have an encounter with a troll and a PC's first response is 'I use my torch to burn it!' I immediately ask how their PC knows that. If they are a monster hunter, scholar or live in a troll-infested area where it would be common knowledge then fine, otherwise you don't know that is the approach to take. I think it's the same thing here. If you roll up a barbarian with an 8 intelligence it's on you the player to RP him as 'ignorant' not as an avatar of yourself in the game world that's super strong, which is NOT impossible to do. It's playing the game in-character. When you play a character in-game you're not automatically supposed to know all of the stat block features and abilities of a creature you're facing, so I don't think it's too much to ask a player to pretend their character might not know all the tarrasques vulnerabilities.

Okay, so which element does my character use? Do I brainstorm alternate damage types and then roll randomly? Saying don't metagame is all fine and dandy, but my character can clearly see conventional attacks aren't working, so they are going to try something.

Ditto on the Big T. If I know which spells of mine will and won't work, how am I meant to RP my ignorant character?

[INDYSTAR188]

Saying don't metagame is all fine and dandy, but my character can clearly see conventional attacks aren't working, so they are going to try something.

Ditto on the Big T. If I know which spells of mine will and won't work, how am I meant to RP my ignorant character?

When your character attacks the troll with a sword and realizes it doesn't work, then yea I think it's time to try something new. Same with the tarrasque, when your Wiz has his spells fail/reflected then he realizes some of them might not work. But, when you start a combat by automatically using the best tactic/weapon in a scenario your PC shouldn't know about, then you might be metagaming.

If you tried something typical for your character and it didn't work and you sought a clever solution, or ran away to research, then it's more palatable. Regarding how you choose to figure that out what element to use vs a troll, which type of spells are actually effective vs the tarrasque, or that silver can hurt lycanthropes... you can randomly try stuff, you could systematically try stuff, you could use character background to justify selecting something... The point is that you should try to separate what you know from what your character knows as much as possible.

[Boci]

If you tried something typical for your character and it didn't work and you sought a clever solution, or ran away to research, then it's more palatable. Regarding how you choose to figure that out what element to use vs a troll, which type of spells are actually effective vs the tarrasque, or that silver can hurt lycanthropes... you can randomly try stuff, you could systematically try stuff, you could use character background to justify selecting something...

You cannot systematically try stuff when you know the answer, and its very rare that a background is going to tell you which order to try different energy types in. At best it will give you a first and maybe last choice.


The point is that you should try to separate what you know from what your character knows as much as possible.

Not really, I never debated that. My point was its a mark against the monsters that players need to RP ignorance, since its tricky to pull of with no reward when compared to just using a monster where knowing stuff doesn't matter.

[Elderand]

Not really, I never debated that. My point was its a mark against the monsters that players need to RP ignorance, since its tricky to pull of with no reward when compared to just using a monster where knowing stuff doesn't matter.

In the exact same way that it's monopoly's fault for not putting rules in place stopping me from simply beating the other player unconscious and taking their stuff.

[Boci]

In the exact same way that it's monopoly's fault for not putting rules in place stopping me from simply beating the other player unconscious and taking their stuff.

So comparing metagaming to aggrevated assault/GBH. Good start for making invalid points.

Now let's look at the fact that this is not a universal problem with monsters, as I mentioned plenty of other end game opponents (dragons, outsiders, humanoids), don't have such a problem with players needing to feingn ignorance and you have a double wrong point.

[Regitnui]

Exactly how high is this theoretical acid splashing wizard actually flying? Because if an elephant can rear up to knock a tree over. I'm pretty sure that Big T could do the same to swat a wizard out of the air. And even if he misses the wizard, how much air is being moved by the thing's massive claw? Enough to force a dexterity save or break concentration.

As for a ranged attack; Yes, giants have "throw rock" in their stat blocks. They don't have fearful presence even though I'm pretty sure the standard reaction of the average person to seeing a creature twice their size coming towards them is "run!" If a giant can be intimidating without fearful presence, surely our favourite monstrosity can send rubble flying by swinging its limbs around?

Neither of those are house rules. Just logic applied to Big T's mere existence. Who's to say Big T even notices humans? Cities are just enough rock and organics piled up in one place to be an appetizing snack. It doesn't matter to it that creatures live there.


The Tarrasque has int 3, you pretty much need primate intelligence to throw things which the Tarrasque does not have. And in any case even if he could, improvised items have a range of 60 feet, you can easily outrange him by having a character with a +1 bow fly or ride a broom or pet or something. Fearful presence wise, it doesn't mean they aren't scary, it just means that they're scary enough to provoke fear beyond someones ability to control themselves - a giant might be scary, but they're not scary enough to provoke that kind of reaction.

Incidentally I made a maths error before, 300 metres down would have 14493 tonnes of earth directly on top of the Tarrasque.

Lines, I like your arguments in other threads, but where in my last post did I say the tarrasque was throwing rocks? The exact phrase was; "send rubble flying". You don't need intelligence to send rubble into the air. Does my dog intend to send dirt flying when she turns at full speed or digs? Nope, but scale that up about three hundred times and there are some significant pieces of earth flying around. The tarrasque isn't going to aim and throw, but it will send pieces of rock, earth and miscellaneous humanoid flying around just because it's huge.

Can I get that straight? A creature taller than most houses that can throw trucks isn't scary enough to send people running away because it's text box doesn't say so? Oh, I'm sorry, i'm obviously underestimating a random medieval farmer's tolerance for monsters that the random man on the street just blinks and carries on with his work because a creature determined to eat their livelihood walked over the hill. Apparently adventurers taking on displacer beasts and extraplanar invasions is so common in people's lives in the D&D worlds that nobody glances twice at it walking down the street!

Let me propose an alternative definition of frightful presence for you. Frightful Presence is not "this thing is scary" it it instead "This creature has a supernatural ability for inspiring fear or awe." A dragon intimidates you by sheer force of personality. Undead are fundamentally unnatural. That is in addition to being a scary thing. The statistics aren't the be all and end all of the creature.

A Tarrasque doesn't just plod along using only the attacks in its game stats. It is a huge, terrifying beast just from the picture. So a level 9 wizard on a broom can kill it over the course of an hour. That's just dry stats. Good luck finding a wizard who's willing to sit on a broom within spellcasting range of what may as well be a hungry, nigh-invulnerable city block. Anyone who isn't suicidal or controlled by an alien intelligence in no actual danger (player character) is already halfway across the country by the time you've thrown your first cantrip.

[Lines]

Lines, I like your arguments in other threads, but where in my last post did I say the tarrasque was throwing rocks? The exact phrase was; "send rubble flying". You don't need intelligence to send rubble into the air. Does my dog intend to send dirt flying when she turns at full speed or digs? Nope, but scale that up about three hundred times and there are some significant pieces of earth flying around. The tarrasque isn't going to aim and throw, but it will send pieces of rock, earth and miscellaneous humanoid flying around just because it's huge.
That's fine, it just isn't going to hit anything flying 120 feet in the air above it.


Can I get that straight? A creature taller than most houses that can throw trucks isn't scary enough to send people running away because it's text box doesn't say so? Oh, I'm sorry, i'm obviously underestimating a random medieval farmer's tolerance for monsters that the random man on the street just blinks and carries on with his work because a creature determined to eat their livelihood walked over the hill. Apparently adventurers taking on displacer beasts and extraplanar invasions is so common in people's lives in the D&D worlds that nobody glances twice at it walking down the street!

Let me propose an alternative definition of frightful presence for you. Frightful Presence is not "this thing is scary" it it instead "This creature has a supernatural ability for inspiring fear or awe." A dragon intimidates you by sheer force of personality. Undead are fundamentally unnatural. That is in addition to being a scary thing. The statistics aren't the be all and end all of the creature.
Obviously people will be scared. Running as fast as you want away from it is a quite logical response, but if people say wanted to band together and all rush together at it with halberds, they can. Frightful Presence means even if that would be the sensible thing to do, even if doing something other than running in blind terror would be more likely to keep you alive and you know that, the fear is so powerful you run anyway. You didn't propose an alternate definition, you pretty much just defined it. I'm not sure what you think you're arguing against here.


A Tarrasque doesn't just plod along using only the attacks in its game stats. It is a huge, terrifying beast just from the picture. So a level 9 wizard on a broom can kill it over the course of an hour. That's just dry stats. Good luck finding a wizard who's willing to sit on a broom within spellcasting range of what may as well be a hungry, nigh-invulnerable city block. Anyone who isn't suicidal or controlled by an alien intelligence in no actual danger (player character) is already halfway across the country by the time you've thrown your first cantrip.
Or, you know, somebody who has an interest in defending their city and is aware they're not in danger. You seem to be underselling the human capacity for bravery and ingenuity pretty hard here.

[Boci]

Lines, I like your arguments in other threads, but where in my last post did I say the tarrasque was throwing rocks? The exact phrase was; "send rubble flying". You don't need intelligence to send rubble into the air. Does my dog intend to send dirt flying when she turns at full speed or digs? Nope, but scale that up about three hundred times and there are some significant pieces of earth flying around. The tarrasque isn't going to aim and throw, but it will send pieces of rock, earth and miscellaneous humanoid flying around just because it's huge.

Can I get that straight? A creature taller than most houses that can throw trucks isn't scary enough to send people running away because it's text box doesn't say so? Oh, I'm sorry, i'm obviously underestimating a random medieval farmer's tolerance for monsters that the random man on the street just blinks and carries on with his work because a creature determined to eat their livelihood walked over the hill. Apparently adventurers taking on displacer beasts and extraplanar invasions is so common in people's lives in the D&D worlds that nobody glances twice at it walking down the street!

Let me propose an alternative definition of frightful presence for you. Frightful Presence is not "this thing is scary" it it instead "This creature has a supernatural ability for inspiring fear or awe." A dragon intimidates you by sheer force of personality. Undead are fundamentally unnatural. That is in addition to being a scary thing. The statistics aren't the be all and end all of the creature.

A Tarrasque doesn't just plod along using only the attacks in its game stats. It is a huge, terrifying beast just from the picture. So a level 9 wizard on a broom can kill it over the course of an hour. That's just dry stats. Good luck finding a wizard who's willing to sit on a broom within spellcasting range of what may as well be a hungry, nigh-invulnerable city block. Anyone who isn't suicidal or controlled by an alien intelligence in no actual danger (player character) is already halfway across the country by the time you've thrown your first cantrip.

That's not how fear works though. You can be scared of something and still fight it. Enemy soldiers are terrifying, their tanks are terrifying, their planes are terrifying. War is terrafying, yet soldiers go to it and fight. Because they have to, because they've got nothing better to do, because they want to, to protect someone or their home. Yes, peasants should be fleeing, but by saying all NPC, even high level spell casters flee it to, your just going from one extreme (farmers unphased by demonic evasion) to the other end of the spectrum (heroes and tough people are suddenly running for their lives, no save, no immunity...oh but the PCs are fine).

Saying "Every NPC, regardless of abilitx, has run for their lives at the mere mention of his name" isn't good world building or a compelling story. It's Big T fanfiction, and not the good kind.

[INDYSTAR188]

You cannot systematically try stuff when you know the answer, and its very rare that a background is going to tell you which order to try different energy types in. At best it will give you a first and maybe last choice.

I'm trying to make the point that your character, Bob the Wizard or Ragnar the Fighter, does not automatically know everything about all monsters in D&D just because you, Boci the player, does. You said (paraphrasing) "what is the PC supposed to do, just systematically or randomly try spells/powers until they find something that works" to which I replied, "maybe".

Maybe your PC stands there trying to figure out which attack can actually stop the trolls regeneration by randomly trying spells or by going through all the options one-by-one, that's up to you. I'm just saying you should not automatically begin a fight with a troll (or any creature in the game) by automatically using a tactic your PC would have no idea about. That's it! That's my whole point! If a monster's immune to non-magical weapon damage you don't necessarily automatically know that, you find out by attacking it with your weapon.


Not really, I never debated that. My point was its a mark against the monsters that players need to RP ignorance, since its tricky to pull of with no reward when compared to just using a monster where knowing stuff doesn't matter.

I think this is the difference in our argument. You seem to be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that you agree player knowledge should be removed from what the character knows but some monsters are so poorly designed you cannot help but know what some of those limitations are. My argument is, it doesn't matter if it's a zombie or the tarrasque, if your character isn't a specialist in undead or a mystical beast hunter, they shouldn't automatically know a monsters weaknesses just because you do. I think it's a player issue (it's your job to RP your character fairly) you think it's a specific monster design issue.

[Boci]

I think it's a player issue (it's your job to RP your character fairly) you think it's a specific monster design issue.

Yes, I do think its a design issue where "act randomly" has been the best RP advice available for how to counter the fact that the player has read the state block. Act fairly means nothing. How do you fairly pretend to not know the asnwer? How many bad guesses is fair before my character has a lucky break?

Your repeatedly mention what not to do, but are very vague on how to actually achieve roleplaying ignorance.

It doesn't matter how good a RP you are, ignorance often cannot be realistically rolled played. Sometimes it an unavoidable part of the game, sometimes it isn't, like Big T. So yes, I absolutly think its a design issue, and a DM issue for using a monster that presents such a problem., first and formost, before I start blaming players for metagaming.

I'm sure Big T is a legit, fun monster to face the first time, assuming you never read the states beforehand. But his stick does not lend itself to being repeatable, and as a DM, I tend to read monster's stats.

Basically the Tarrasque is a riddle, and I don't think its a player issue when a DM uses a riddle they already know the answer to.

[Regitnui]

I said; people who have good sense, no magical weapons, and fair warning, in other words the vast majority of NPCs in any given universe, will be running away. That's precisely the role of player characters.

And really, do I have to put things in blue to make sarcasm detectable?

[Lines]

I said; people who have good sense, no magical weapons, and fair warning, in other words the vast majority of NPCs in any given universe, will be running away. That's precisely the role of player characters.

And really, do I have to put things in blue to make sarcasm detectable?

Since sarcasm is almost entirely tone dependent, I'd assume yes. And you don't need the vast majority to kill it, only competent people with access to flight and ranged attacks.

[Boci]

I said; people who have good sense, no magical weapons, and fair warning, in other words the vast majority of NPCs in any given universe, will be running away. That's precisely the role of player characters.

And the NPCs. The mage circle, the mercenary group famed for fighting from the back of griffons, the higher ranking members of the assassins guild based in a city in the estimated path of rampage...

[INDYSTAR188]

Yes, I do think its a design issue where "act randomly" has been the best RP advice available for how to counter the fact that the player has read the state block. Act fairly means nothing. How do you fairly pretend to not know the asnwer? How many bad guesses is fair before my character has a lucky break?

Your repeatedly mention what not to do, but are very vague on how to actually achieve roleplaying ignorance.

It doesn't matter how good a RP you are, ignorance often cannot be realistically rolled played. Sometimes it an unavoidable part of the game, sometimes it isn't, like Big T. So yes, I absolutly think its a design issue, and a DM issue for using a monster that presents such a problem., first and formost, before I start blaming players for metagaming.

I'm sure Big T is a legit, fun monster to face the first time, assuming you never read the states beforehand. But his stick does not lend itself to being repeatable, and as a DM, I tend to read monster's stats.

By that logic, if you were in my game, I couldn't use ANY monster because you've read their stats (as a fellow DM) and have admitted you cannot divorce player from character knowledge. 'Roleplaying ignorance' is a term you made up to describe what I'm talking about, not something I agree with. I did not offer any play advice on how to avoid it because you're free to play however you like. I would simply suggest that if your PC comes across a monster he/she has no business knowing a lot about that you merely fight the monster as your PC would according to their class, race and background, not as described in a theory-crafting thread about the perfect response to said monster.

Lets pretend you are playing Thok the Half-Orc barbarian. Now you, Boci, seem like an intelligent, reasonable person. I highly doubt your response to most obstacles in your life is slide into a mindless rage and destroy anything in your path. But when you sit down to game this weekend, the first tough fight you get into, you would probably use the characters rage power. My assertion is that it is no different pretending to ACT like someone you're not than it is to ACT like you don't know everything about a monsters stat block. Sure, Thok might attack the troll for a couple of rounds in a rage before realizing their attacks are closing up and healing. He might try to push the troll away to give himself some space and it might fall into the campfire.

*Edit to add, I don't think this is a black and white issue either, there are varying degrees. If you could rationalize the 'trolls are weak to fire' knowledge to me in-game I have NO issue with your character successfully using the tactic. Just when your PC from Icewind Dale starts telling me all about Imix the primordial's weaknesses... well unless we did something in-game to educate you I don't think that's very plausible.

[supergoji18]

has anyone mentioned that the Tarrasque's attacks don't even have the magic weapon property on them?

This pretty much means that anyone with the Heavy Armor Master feat and a set of that armor that gives you resistance to Bludgeoning Piercing and Slashing damage from non-magical weapons is going to TANK THE TARRASQUE. Given sufficient heals and buffs, that magic armor man can probably go one-on-one against the Tarrasque and WIN!

Heck, a single spellcaster that has the True Polymorph spell can polymorph itself into anything that is immune to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage from non-magical weapons (an Androsphinx for example, which is CR 17 so it CAN be polymorphed into) and, after enough rounds, get a flawless victory against it.

[Aetol]

Bite, Swallow. 16d6 acid damage per turn.

[supergoji18]

Bite, Swallow. 16d6 acid damage per turn.

Teleport Legendary Action

[RickAllison]

Teleport Legendary Action

True Polymorphed PCs don't get Legendary Actions.

[supergoji18]

True Polymorphed PCs don't get Legendary Actions.

really? darn...

time to look for another creature to polymorph into that also resists acid

[RickAllison]

really? darn...

time to look for another creature to polymorph into that also resists acid

That being said, Androsphinx still works. Remember that one of its Innate Spellcasting spells is Freedom of Movement. Technically, he can spend 5 feet of movement to escape with that.

[supergoji18]

That being said, Androsphinx still works. Remember that one of its Innate Spellcasting spells is Freedom of Movement. Technically, he can spend 5 feet of movement to escape with that.

True, there is that! Alternatively it could kite the Tarrasque by blasting it with Flamestrikes and Sacred Flames, then start going in for actual attacks. The Tarrasque would only have the bite attack, which it can't damage the Androsphinx with but could grapple with. It would be able to break out 35% of the time, which is something.

[RickAllison]

True, there is that! Alternatively it could kite the Tarrasque by blasting it with Flamestrikes and Sacred Flames, then start going in for actual attacks. The Tarrasque would only have the bite attack, which it can't damage the Androsphinx with but could grapple with. It would be able to break out 35% of the time, which is something.

Well since Freedom of Movement isn't concentration, you can raise that to 100% without sacrificing anything but an action and a casting of Banishment. Androsphinx is really cheesy to send up against Big T :smallsmile:

[Aetol]

True Polymorphed PCs don't get Legendary Actions.

Shapechange says you don't, but True Polymorph says nothing of the sort...

[Boci]

By that logic, if you were in my game, I couldn't use ANY monster because you've read their stats (as a fellow DM) and have admitted you cannot divorce player from character knowledge.

I never said that, and specifically mentioned why this is a problem specific to Big T. If we're fighting an ancient dragon, what changes from me having read the state block? Nothing much. I know which element its immune to, I may be able to remember and calculate the expected damage and recharge rate of its breath weapon, and I know its got magic and is a fierce melee beast. Not terrible useful.

What changes from knowing Big Ts states? Everything, well, a lot. Big T remains just as unkill-able, but known I know the extend of of his unkillable-ness, which really defangs him and is headache to deal with RP-wise. We've had multiple exchanges on this topic, and yet still "act randomly" is the best advice offered.


My assertion is that it is no different pretending to ACT like someone you're not than it is to ACT like you don't know everything about a monsters stat block.

That's simply not true. It is far easier to act as a Brazilian private detective from the 1920s than it is to solve the sphinx's riddle whilst pretending you don't know the answer's man. Feel free to offer tips on how to do the latter.

[JoeJ]

1) Metagaming is a lot harder if the DM doesn't ever say that you're fighting the tarrasque. It's just an unknown gigantic monster that you're trying to stop at night, in a storm, in the middle of a crowded city. A monster that the DM did not show you a picture of (or changed what the tarrasque looks like in their world and showed you a picture of that).

2) For adding a ranged attack, I would go with making it an area effect (so Dexterity save for half damage) rather than an attack roll, to represent it flinging house-sized debris.

3) Pixies casting Polymorph are unlikely to be effective. The tarrasque has only a 1% chance of failing its saving throw.

4) In the movies, tanks and artillery and missiles appear to injure Godzilla to the point of drawing blood, but never do enough actual damage to even slow him down. Treating non-magical weapon attacks against the tarrasque that way both makes it seem scarier and also makes it very much harder for PCs to figure out what does work and what doesn't.

5) As an end of the world monster, I agree that the tarrasque by itself is underwhelming. I'd use it instead as a harbinger, whose defeat sets in motion the real threat.

[RickAllison]

1) Metagaming is a lot harder if the DM doesn't ever say that you're fighting the tarrasque. It's just an unknown gigantic monster that you're trying to stop at night, in a storm, in the middle of a crowded city. A monster that the DM did not show you a picture of (or changed what the tarrasque looks like in their world and showed you a picture of that).

2) For adding a ranged attack, I would go with making it an area effect (so Dexterity save for half damage) rather than an attack roll, to represent it flinging house-sized debris.

3) Pixies casting Polymorph are unlikely to be effective. The tarrasque has only a 1% chance of failing its saving throw.

4) In the movies, tanks and artillery and missiles appear to injure Godzilla to the point of drawing blood, but never do enough actual damage to even slow him down. Treating non-magical weapon attacks against the tarrasque that way both makes it seem scarier and also makes it very much harder for PCs to figure out what does work and what doesn't.

5) As an end of the world monster, I agree that the tarrasque by itself is underwhelming. I'd use it instead as a harbinger, whose defeat sets in motion the real threat.

I kind of like the idea of playing it up like Galactus. The one time that he was killed, it was revealed that his presence was actually keeping a greater danger at bay. The party can kill the tarrasque, then go on a journey to either stop the bigger monstrosity or to bring back the tarrasque.

[Mith]

Would giving the Tarrasque Limited Spell Immunity like the Rashaka (immune to spells 6th level or lower)? That greatly reduces the effectiveness of any spells against it. The problem of course with it being that high level spells is that the only way to try and kill Big T is for effective use of the 4 spell slots/full caster and/or buffing up the martial characters to do as much damage as possible.

Then also put on Limited Regen as well as a Burrow and Swim speed. :smallbiggrin:

I realize that could easily be a bit much, but I would probably offset it with the Tarrasque being a very offensive creature that doesn't retreat when things are going poorly for it. It takes on any challenge until the challenge or it is dead. And the world is a challenge.

[Lines]

Would giving the Tarrasque Limited Spell Immunity like the Rashaka (immune to spells 6th level or lower)? That greatly reduces the effectiveness of any spells against it. The problem of course with it being that high level spells is that the only way to try and kill Big T is for effective use of the 4 spell slots/full caster and/or buffing up the martial characters to do as much damage as possible.

Then also put on Limited Regen as well as a Burrow and Swim speed. :smallbiggrin:

I realize that could easily be a bit much, but I would probably offset it with the Tarrasque being a very offensive creature that doesn't retreat when things are going poorly for it. It takes on any challenge until the challenge or it is dead. And the world is a challenge.

Sure, as long as you make it so that martial classes are only allowed to attack the Tarrasque 4 times per long rest.

[Mith]

I figured as much. Something like that build only really works if the party has access to ways to do massive non-magical damage to the party that would involve the entire party.

[Boci]

1) Metagaming is a lot harder if the DM doesn't ever say that you're fighting the tarrasque. It's just an unknown gigantic monster that you're trying to stop at night, in a storm, in the middle of a crowded city. A monster that the DM did not show you a picture of (or changed what the tarrasque looks like in their world and showed you a picture of that).

But isn't the whole point of the Big T his legacy? Weren't their signs of the world ending? Why is he suddenly appearing in a city one stormy night? And even if the PCs happen to be there when he wakes up and this is the first they've seen of him, "Gargantuan, hulking, landbound force of destruction" is still going to at the very least suggest Big T to veteran players.

[JoeJ]

But isn't the whole point of the Big T his legacy? Weren't their signs of the world ending? Why is he suddenly appearing in a city one stormy night? And even if the PCs happen to be there when he wakes up and this is the first they've seen of him, "Gargantuan, hulking, landbound force of destruction" is still going to at the very least suggest Big T to veteran players.

Not legacy, prophecy. The Destroyer of prophecy is not something the world has ever seen before. If the tarrasque has a legacy, then you're in a different world entirely. Probably the one in which a dragon might use Alter Self to try to exploit that legacy.

Gigantic, hulking force of destruction that comes out of the ocean, and doesn't have tentacles, is more likely to suggest something homebrewed.

[Boci]

Not legacy, prophecy. The Destroyer of prophecy is not something the world has ever seen before. If the tarrasque has a legacy, then you're in a different world entirely. Probably the one in which a dragon might use Alter Self to try to exploit that legacy.

I was using legacy in an OOC sense.


Gigantic, hulking force of destruction that comes out of the ocean, and doesn't have tentacles, is more likely to suggest something homebrewed.

....maybe? But even then, Big Ts claim to fame is how unkillable he is, and even a a homebrew monster is likely based off something. CR+ unkillable monster is going to suggest Big T even with such fluff tweaks. I dunno, thinking is always different caught in the moment of the game that cold removed analysis, but it seems like someone could tell what the creature was. Now if you were to actually give him squid tentacles....

[Regitnui]

Now if you were to actually give him squid tentacles....

Then you'd have Cthulu.

[Boci]

Then you'd have Cthulu.

Pop-culture Cthulu yes. Actual Cthulu is far more intelligent and likely more powerful, though the second is difficult to measure due to how different the two worlds are.

[RickAllison]

Pop-culture Cthulu yes. Actual Cthulu is far more intelligent and likely more powerful, though the second is difficult to measure due to how different the two worlds are.

Actual Cthulhu would have Maddening Presence instead of Frightful Presence, for one :smallsmile:

[Boci]

Actual Cthulhu would have Maddening Presence instead of Frightful Presence, for one :smallsmile:

In D&D sure, but the actual Lovecraft-ian lore is that he doesn't make insane. The realization he exists, and the fact that his existence completely destroys our model of the universe, replacing it with infinity more complex one we can never hope to understand. Turns out we even got geometry wrong. You can have a two dimensional shape with 5 internal right angles.

Personally I find it very hard to buy, Sci-Fi may have contributed to that, but that's the official lore.

[Talakeal]

Giving the tarrasque some ability to reflect more typs of spells will probably help with the spamming cantrips or polymorphs on him for hours on end.

[Lines]

Giving the tarrasque some ability to reflect more typs of spells will probably help with the spamming cantrips or polymorphs on him for hours on end.

Cool, just remember to have him reflect weapon attacks too.

[pwykersotz]

Sure, as long as you make it so that martial classes are only allowed to attack the Tarrasque 4 times per long rest.

A spellcaster who is out of top level spells to throw at the Tarrasque is hardly helpless. They have a bevvy of tools at their disposal to buff allies, alter the battlefield, and break physics. Those things don't equate. Heck, you're one of the loudest voices on this particular subject.

[JoeJ]

Cool, just remember to have him reflect weapon attacks too.

The tarrasque is already immune to nonmagical weapon attacks.

[Lines]

A spellcaster who is out of top level spells to throw at the Tarrasque is hardly helpless. They have a bevvy of tools at their disposal to buff allies, alter the battlefield, and break physics. Those things don't equate. Heck, you're one of the loudest voices on this particular subject.

I'm well aware. My strongest note is that martial classes need more options - people feel free to throw restrictions (advantage and resistance against all spells, legendary saves, immune to spell levels) on casting against monsters that they would never apply to martials - because if a martial comes across a monster with 'all weapon attacks against this monster have disadvantage and it has resistance to them) or, Tiamat or Rakshasa style just can't be the target of more than a few attacks before the martial has to make a long rest, they're screwed.

People feel comfortable throwing said arbitrary restrictions against casters because they are aware that, unlike martial classes, they can take it. They won't admit that to themselves though, and will tell me if asked directly that no really champion fighters are totally just as useful as wizards are. I'll stop when the doublethink stops.


The tarrasque is already immune to nonmagical weapon attacks.

Bloody everything is, that's not an actual downside. Call me back when holding a +1 weapon gets past reflective carapace.

[RickAllison]

I'm well aware. My strongest note is that martial classes need more options - people feel free to throw restrictions (advantage and resistance against all spells, legendary saves, immune to spell levels) on casting against monsters that they would never apply to martials - because if a martial comes across a monster with 'all weapon attacks against this monster have disadvantage and it has resistance to them) or, Tiamat or Rakshasa style just can't be the target of more than a few attacks before the martial has to make a long rest, they're screwed.

People feel comfortable throwing said arbitrary restrictions against casters because they are aware that, unlike martial classes, they can take it. They won't admit that to themselves though, and will tell me if asked directly that no really champion fighters are totally just as useful as wizards are. I'll stop when the doublethink stops.



Bloody everything is, that's not an actual downside. Call me back when holding a +1 weapon gets past reflective carapace.

Well, if we think back to different stories, it kind of makes sense. If magic is so powerful, why are so many of the heroes of lore what equates to martial classes? The D&D answer, it appears, is that it's harder to truly lock out the speck wielding the magic toothpick. Where the versatile wizard can be shut down when facing the wrong beast, the combination of an enchanted weapon and the courage wielded by the crazy man going toe-to-toe with a world-shattering behemoth can't be denied in the same way. If D&D is following the stories, it makes sense that the "arbitrary restrictions" are in place for casters because they are remaining true to the tales.

[Lines]

Well, if we think back to different stories, it kind of makes sense. If magic is so powerful, why are so many of the heroes of lore what equates to martial classes?
I would assume because we're already familiar with 'is able to hit things with a pointy stick' and inventing a coherent magic system takes time.


he D&D answer, it appears, is that it's harder to truly lock out the speck wielding the magic toothpick. Where the versatile wizard can be shut down when facing the wrong beast, the combination of an enchanted weapon and the courage wielded by the crazy man going toe-to-toe with a world-shattering behemoth can't be denied in the same way. If D&D is following the stories, it makes sense that the "arbitrary restrictions" are in place for casters because they are remaining true to the tales.
True to what tales? D&D takes from any number of different sources. And the entire point of a versatile wizard is they can't be shut down when facing the wrong anything.

[pwykersotz]

I'm well aware. My strongest note is that martial classes need more options - people feel free to throw restrictions (advantage and resistance against all spells, legendary saves, immune to spell levels) on casting against monsters that they would never apply to martials - because if a martial comes across a monster with 'all weapon attacks against this monster have disadvantage and it has resistance to them) or, Tiamat or Rakshasa style just can't be the target of more than a few attacks before the martial has to make a long rest, they're screwed.

People feel comfortable throwing said arbitrary restrictions against casters because they are aware that, unlike martial classes, they can take it. They won't admit that to themselves though, and will tell me if asked directly that no really champion fighters are totally just as useful as wizards are. I'll stop when the doublethink stops.

Which isn't really on-topic or even true. Lots of creatures have resistance/immunity to weapon attacks or ways of mitigating non-magic. It's not doublethink to treat fundamentally different classes in different ways. The Tarrasques sky high HP, AC, Frightful Presence, and Swallow are all heavy hits against non-magic, but it doesn't take them out of the game. Some damage gets through, skill checks can be used to traverse/manipulate the environment or the beast itself, and there's even optional rules for fighting on gigantic creatures. Shutting down magic through Reflective Carapace + Limited Immunity is similarly a difficult issue for casters, but it doesn't stop them from contributing. I'd say they're in similar boats.

I don't really have a comment to make about champion fighters versus wizards because, while I disagree with you (mostly because you're misrepresenting the argument), this thread isn't really about that.

That said, I too don't think Limited Magic Immunity is the way to go. I agree with Regeneration, Immunity to Polymorph (or maybe the Shapechanger subtype just for fun!) and a burrow speed. I don't think it needs a special ability to hurl rubble. I'd also rather have Swallow gate you to the Plane of Vacuum (cross-point between the Plane of Air and the Plane of Negative Energy) and team up the Tarrasque with an Empyrean who, at the gods command, awoke the beast to lay waste to the particular city.