A couple of questions about Guidance

[Segev]

Is there any reason, first of all, that guidance wouldn't be cast on a party member every time he's about to make an active skill check? Obviously, you can get caught by surprise in some cases (passive perception, for instance), but it seems almost like, for the most part, the spell reads as, "Your party members get +1d4 to all ability checks." Is that an inaccurate assessment?

Secondly, I can't recall if 5e has an explicit forbiddance of stacking the same effect multiple times. If you have, say, 2 PCs with guidance, can they both use them on the party wizard before he makes an Arcana check to give him +2d4 on it?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'm sure there's a clause in the spellcasting section saying you can't stack the same spell twice.

But yes, your understanding of Guidance is correct. It's an extremely good cantrip, easily the equal of Minor Illusion. It's up to the DM to put the party in situations where it can't be used (or just split the party more often).

[Gtdead]

You can't stack effects. That's for sure.
Otherwise everyone would take 1 level of cleric and have 4d4 on skills and then 4d4 on attack rolls and saving throws via bless.

But outside of combat, yes, it's just a permanent 1d4 on a party member. The only reason there is a duration on the thing is that if I cast it on the rogue, and he moves far away from the party, after 10 rounds I won't be able to rebuff him.

[mer.c]

Off the top of my head, the only times I can think of where Guidance wouldn't be cast are:

Under duress, like in combat – better things to do with your round.

Some social situations, like negotiating with a hostile NPC (kind of akin to casting Friends on them).

Concentrating on another spell.

The Cleric forgets about it. ;)

[Ace Jackson]

Is there any reason, first of all, that guidance wouldn't be cast on a party member every time he's about to make an active skill check? Obviously, you can get caught by surprise in some cases (passive perception, for instance), but it seems almost like, for the most part, the spell reads as, "Your party members get +1d4 to all ability checks." Is that an inaccurate assessment?

Secondly, I can't recall if 5e has an explicit forbiddance of stacking the same effect multiple times. If you have, say, 2 PCs with guidance, can they both use them on the party wizard before he makes an Arcana check to give him +2d4 on it?

To the first point, there can be stealth concerns and fluff concerns, for an offhand example, in Mystara's Principalities of Glantri, all clerics are outlawed and will be executed.

To the second, on page 205 I believe it says that duplicate effects from the same spell cast multiple times do not stack, it's under combining magical effects.

Overall I don't think it inaccurate beyond concentration mechanics considerations.

Ninja'd but there it is anyway.

[Segev]

Wow. I hadn't noticed bless, yet. Those are pretty good.

I don't think guidance on a social character prior to a persuasion roll would have quite the negative effects, unless there'd be objection to somebody giving him advice on what to say or otherwise backing him up (e.g. a Help action). Friends explicitly states it has that conversion-to-hostile reaction. (Which...can be negated by casting it again, I think. Or at least, you can regain Advantage on a persuasion roll, which you can try to use to get him to forgive you.)

[RulesJD]

Limits on Guidance:

1. It's range is Touch, so Cleric has to be standing next to the target as, or have been in the last 1 minute, the target is attempting the check.

2. The Cleric has to have 6 seconds (Action to cast Guidance) warning that the target is attempting the skill check.

3. The target has to know ahead of time that it's making a skill check. Doing an active perception check is likely noticing, making an intelligence (history) check as you look at a painting as you walk by maybe not so much.

4. Guidance has Verbal components, which can nix it in certain stealth/social situations.

5. Constantly casting it every 6 seconds all day (seen players that like to claim this) is likely to result in exhaustion pretty quickly.

Other than the other usual spell requirements, there aren't that many restrictions on using it for most skill checks.

[Douche]

I always cast Guidance on my homies when we are picking up chicks. I am the best wingman ever.

[Segev]

Limits on Guidance:

1. It's range is Touch, so Cleric has to be standing next to the target as, or have been in the last 1 minute, the target is attempting the check.

2. The Cleric has to have 6 seconds (Action to cast Guidance) warning that the target is attempting the skill check.

3. The target has to know ahead of time that it's making a skill check. Doing an active perception check is likely noticing, making an intelligence (history) check as you look at a painting as you walk by maybe not so much.

4. Guidance has Verbal components, which can nix it in certain stealth/social situations.

5. Constantly casting it every 6 seconds all day (seen players that like to claim this) is likely to result in exhaustion pretty quickly.

Other than the other usual spell requirements, there aren't that many restrictions on using it for most skill checks.
Good points, though 5) is a little silly since it's Concentration duration, which means that casting it between a previous casting and it being used/the duration ending is pointless. It cancels the prior casting.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I always cast Guidance on my homies when we are picking up chicks. I am the best wingman ever.

*Eyeroll*

You're such a douche, Douche.

[Douche]

*Eyeroll*

You're such a douche, Douche.

That's funny. Let's be friends!

[Segev]

*Eyeroll*

You're such a douche, Douche.

Nah, a real douche move would be to use disguise self to look like the other guys catching the target girl's attention, then using friends on her to hit on her, yourself. Then be a real jerk just before friends wears off, so your guidance-aided buddy now lacks competition as she hates any other guy who might've tried.

[Biggstick]

Is there any reason, first of all, that guidance wouldn't be cast on a party member every time he's about to make an active skill check? Obviously, you can get caught by surprise in some cases (passive perception, for instance), but it seems almost like, for the most part, the spell reads as, "Your party members get +1d4 to all ability checks." Is that an inaccurate assessment?

Secondly, I can't recall if 5e has an explicit forbiddance of stacking the same effect multiple times. If you have, say, 2 PCs with guidance, can they both use them on the party wizard before he makes an Arcana check to give him +2d4 on it?

A PC can only have one instance of Guidance on them, and a PC can only have cast one instance of Guidance up on someone (or themselves) at a time. To have it up as often as you're implying makes me hope that whoever is playing the PC casting it is constantly muttering to themselves (or louder) and making hand gestures over people as they cast it. Eventually the party is going to assume whoever is doing the casting of Guidance is a little strange, constantly throughout the day placing the blessing of some power over them as they're trying to figure out what the history of said statue is (or how skillfully they can cross a rope bridge, or how well they can talk to someone, etc etc).

If a PC wants to have guidance up as often as this post makes it seem, have the Player RP it out, and have the rest of the party react accordingly.

[Douche]

Nah, a real douche move would be to use disguise self to look like the other guys catching the target girl's attention, then using friends on her to hit on her, yourself. Then be a real jerk just before friends wears off, so your guidance-aided buddy now lacks competition as she hates any other guy who might've tried.

That sounds pretty convoluted. I also think you are dealing an indignity to women for calling them "targets" like some sort of predator. You ought to show more respect :smalltongue:

[Segev]

A PC can only have one instance of Guidance on them, and a PC can only have cast one instance of Guidance up on someone (or themselves) at a time. To have it up as often as you're implying makes me hope that whoever is playing the PC casting it is constantly muttering to themselves (or louder) and making hand gestures over people as they cast it. Eventually the party is going to assume whoever is doing the casting of Guidance is a little strange, constantly throughout the day placing the blessing of some power over them as they're trying to figure out what the history of said statue is (or how skillfully they can cross a rope bridge, or how well they can talk to someone, etc etc).

If a PC wants to have guidance up as often as this post makes it seem, have the Player RP it out, and have the rest of the party react accordingly.Yes, because a notable average improvement of 12.5% to success rates after your friend gives you a blessing before any given action makes you look at him strangely. Why would the caster keep what he's doing a secret from his friends? And why would it have to be "constant?" Just do it before they try something that looks moderately difficult - i.e. would require an ability check. Keeping it up for passive checks is silly because it wouldn't affect them anyway. There's no roll.


That sounds pretty convoluted. I also think you are dealing an indignity to women for calling them "targets" like some sort of predator. You ought to show more respect :smalltongue:

I did say that such behavior would be being a douche.

[Biggstick]

Yes, because a notable average improvement of 12.5% to success rates after your friend gives you a blessing before any given action makes you look at him strangely. Why would the caster keep what he's doing a secret from his friends? And why would it have to be "constant?" Just do it before they try something that looks moderately difficult - i.e. would require an ability check. Keeping it up for passive checks is silly because it wouldn't affect them anyway. There's no roll.

I don't think in character you would notice a difference of 12.5 percent success rate (out of character, you would definitely know the difference, but there are plenty of characters who distrust those who don't share the same faith as them). If you're making the check, do you think you'd attribute your *successful roll* to your own skill or to the friend who is constantly praying around you.

I'm not sure about you, but when I walk into a new room while exploring a dungeon and it happens to be something akin to a library with a bunch of stuff in it, people are going to start rolling checks. There's going to be a potential arcana check, a potential religion check, history check, investigation, perception, athletics, stealth, sleight of hand, etc etc. Is the PC who's casting guidance essentially just running around this room giving someone guidance before each check? That's what would be required, as PC's are tend to spread out a little bit and attempt the things that are appealing to them (Rogue investigating, Cleric perceiving, wizard arcana'ing/history'ing). The one running around casting the Guidance would definitely be looked at a bit strangely in my games.

[Segev]

Eh. If people trust the cleric to cast healing spells and other combat buffs, trusting him to cast skill buffs is not beyond the pale.

[CantigThimble]

People throughout history have been obsessed with, and willing to look quite silly for luck. Clerics can literally provide functional luck, you just have to ask. This would get normal pretty quickly.

[Segev]

Hey, it worked for Immortan Joe's followers. "You will enter Valhalla shiny and chrome." *sprays dude* "You will enter Valhalla shiny and chrome." *sprays next dude* etc.


"You will walk the red carpet sugary and glazed."

[Slipperychicken]

I always cast Guidance on my homies when we are picking up chicks. I am the best wingman ever.

I kind of want to see this play out now.

By the grace of our lord Pelor, may your pickup lines be like a siren song!

May Gaia grant you a plentiful harvest of buxom wenches!

As the saint Cuthbert did lay to rest a thousand of the unliving, may you lay with a thousand maidens!

[pwykersotz]

As the saint Cuthbert did lay to rest a thousand of the unliving, may you lay with a thousand maidens!

This one had me rolling. :smallbiggrin:

[CantigThimble]

This one had me rolling. :smallbiggrin:

My d20+1d4 that is.

[Segev]

This one had me rolling. :smallbiggrin:
In the hay? :smalltongue:

[Biggstick]

Eh. If people trust the cleric to cast healing spells and other combat buffs, trusting him to cast skill buffs is not beyond the pale.

How people act in combat or war is very different then how people act outside of those activities.

There are very few healing spells and combat buffs that Clerics cast that actually require touch (Death Ward, Cure Wounds, Protection from Evil and Good, Lesser and Greater Restoration are the only ones I'm seeing that'd be used in the first 5 levels, I might be wrong here). Most of the spells and buffs they're casting actually don't require touch (Bless, Healing Word, Sanctuary, Aid, Prayer of Healing, Mass Healing Word, Mass Cure Wounds, Heal)

Out of combat walking up to someone, interrupting whatever they're doing so you can say a quick prayer over them is something that in my group would eventually get kicked to the curb for typical checks (unless you're casting the guidance on yourself, then by all means mutter all you want during the day lol). I don't say kicked to the curb in a malicious way, just that it gets tiring to say that you're casting guidance every single time someone makes a skill check.

[Segev]

Out of combat walking up to someone, interrupting whatever they're doing so you can say a quick prayer over them is something that in my group would eventually get kicked to the curb for typical checks (unless you're casting the guidance on yourself, then by all means mutter all you want during the day lol). I don't say kicked to the curb in a malicious way, just that it gets tiring to say that you're casting guidance every single time someone makes a skill check.

In most groups I've been in, the response to it being "tiresome" OOC would be to make it SOP and thus assumed unless stated otherwise. Different groups with different expectations, I guess.

[Biggstick]

In most groups I've been in, the response to it being "tiresome" OOC would be to make it SOP and thus assumed unless stated otherwise. Different groups with different expectations, I guess.

I agree with having a SOP for something you do all the time. Examples include marching order, the opening and clearing of rooms, the setting up of a camp at night, so on and so forth. Maybe to me it's just the logistics of having the one casting Guidance essentially involving him/herself in every skill check the individual party members make. It's definitely possible, just something that doesn't seem feasible to me.

[Slipperychicken]

How people act in combat or war is very different then how people act outside of those activities.

There are very few healing spells and combat buffs that Clerics cast that actually require touch (Death Ward, Cure Wounds, Protection from Evil and Good, Lesser and Greater Restoration are the only ones I'm seeing that'd be used in the first 5 levels, I might be wrong here). Most of the spells and buffs they're casting actually don't require touch (Bless, Healing Word, Sanctuary, Aid, Prayer of Healing, Mass Healing Word, Mass Cure Wounds, Heal)

Out of combat walking up to someone, interrupting whatever they're doing so you can say a quick prayer over them is something that in my group would eventually get kicked to the curb for typical checks (unless you're casting the guidance on yourself, then by all means mutter all you want during the day lol). I don't say kicked to the curb in a malicious way, just that it gets tiring to say that you're casting guidance every single time someone makes a skill check.

If this guy has repeatedly saved me from death by putting his own life on the line, then he can say whatever he wants to me. As far as I'm concerned, he's earned that right.

Also, it's not good policy to insult your medic. Just saying.

[CantigThimble]

Out of combat walking up to someone, interrupting whatever they're doing so you can say a quick prayer over them is something that in my group would eventually get kicked to the curb for typical checks (unless you're casting the guidance on yourself, then by all means mutter all you want during the day lol). I don't say kicked to the curb in a malicious way, just that it gets tiring to say that you're casting guidance every single time someone makes a skill check.

Why aren't the players walking up to the cleric and asking for guidance? It's really useful.

[Biggstick]

If this guy has repeatedly saved me from death by putting his own life on the line, then he can say whatever he wants to me. As far as I'm concerned, he's earned that right.

Also, it's not good policy to insult your medic. Just saying.

Just as it's not good policy to invade your friend's personal space! (which is in a way what Guidance is doing) In theory the both of you have put your lives on the line for each other. And who's to say you haven't repeatedly saved the life of said person multiple times either? Just because you've served together doing something for a while doesn't mean that you allow said person to be all up in your space because he thinks you need a little help remembering just what exactly it was that was special about said statue.

Doc stop man, I'm trying to talk the king into rewarding us for bringing his daughter back safe and sound!

You threw off my groove! (Rolls low performance after someone casts Guidance on them)

Just a couple of examples that come to mind. To me it's similar to your mom coming up, spitting on her thumb and cleaning something off your face right before you talk to someone you like.

[RickAllison]

Just a couple of examples that come to mind. To me it's similar to your mom coming up, spitting on her thumb and cleaning something off your face right before you talk to someone you like.

See, you say this and it instantly makes me want to play a character who does just this. And in fact, I'm looking at doing exactly this right now! I have a werebear monk who I was trying to decide between a level in barbarian and a level in cleric, so this seals it. She will literally be a Mama Bear!

[Segev]

If Mom walking up to you and wiping your face with a cloth actually made you better at whatever you were doing, you'd probably ask her to do it before things you wanted to do well on. And, in a setting where this kind of thing "really works," it stops being embarrassing and becomes culturally normal. Or, if not normal, then special, as it's a privilege to be able to benefit from that boon.

[Segev]

See, you say this and it instantly makes me want to play a character who does just this. And in fact, I'm looking at doing exactly this right now! I have a werebear monk who I was trying to decide between a level in barbarian and a level in cleric, so this seals it. She will literally be a Mama Bear!

:smallbiggrin:

[Biggstick]

See, you say this and it instantly makes me want to play a character who does just this. And in fact, I'm looking at doing exactly this right now! I have a werebear monk who I was trying to decide between a level in barbarian and a level in cleric, so this seals it. She will literally be a Mama Bear!

Stares in horror

What have I done....

[Mellack]

I think it is important to remember that Guidance verifiably works. A 12.5% increase is noticeable, and would be appreciated. DO you think a basketball player wouldn't notice a 12% increase in their free throw percentage? Not only should they be accepting the help, they should be asking for it. Making a risky climb up to the ledge? Have the cleric give everyone a prayer before they start up. Same before the rogue tries to pick that lock. I used to have a pirate campaign where my cleric often stood next to the ship pilot during the chase scene just giving them guidance.
Refusing to let the cleric cast guidance would be like deciding to go for a swim in boots, jeans and a sweatshirt instead of a swimsuit. Sure you might still be able to do it, but why would you want to make it harder on yourself?

[RickAllison]

Stares in horror

What have I done....

She also has the Survival skill and a bamboo staff that infinitely regenerates bamboo. She can make the whole party eat their vegetables! She'll take Knowledge as her domain because "Mother knows best!" Finally, she grapples so I am flavoring it as her grabbing the targets by the ears.

You have brought Hell to Earth :smallwink:

[Segev]

Also, Guidance increases your MAXIMUM possible performance by +4. In fact, you have a 12.5% chance of rolling higher than a 20 on the dice alone. (http://anydice.com/program/f03) That's pretty significant. Not only can you roll higher than otherwise, but you have more than twice the chance of rolling >20 on the dice alone with guidance than you do of rolling a 20 without it!

So it really does make you significantly better than you are without it; it actually makes you more likely to do better than your best than you would be to merely do your best without it!

[DMBlackhart]

Didn't read the whole thread, but at my table a common house rule we use for Guidance (as it is constantly being abused in this way), is to add a clause of;
"add 1d4 to the roll with a cumulative -1 (max -4) each time this spell is cast within a minute of a previous casting from the same source.

May make the spell seem lack-luster at first glance, but at a rough "only cast it 1/minute, it has balanced itself out. Most my problem PCs don't spam it any more (and when they do, it quickly becomes a detriment), and when they DO use it it still puts the check in their favor and rarely backfires.

When it DOES backfire (cause they spam it for 2-3 uses in a row), I just flavor it as their god getting sick of the constant "Hey, Thor, can ye lend me a hand here" text messages.

[lall]

And why would it have to be "constant?"
Unless we're trying to be stealthy, I cast it every 60 seconds in case combat breaks out so that I can add it to initiative.

[RickAllison]

Unless we're trying to be stealthy, I cast it every 60 seconds in case combat breaks out so that I can add it to initiative.

"Odin, keep me vigilant. Odin, keep me vigilant. Odin, keep me vigilant..."

I could see a cleric muttering in prayer continuously while expecting ambush. Give him a rosary-like emblem to pray over for flavor.

[Ruslan]

Why aren't the players walking up to the cleric and asking for guidance? It's really useful.Yeah, exactly. In fact, if I was traveling with a priest companion who has a direct rapport to his God, I'd ask him for blessings as many times as I could possibly get away with.
"I'm about to make a suit of armor, can you bless it so it deflects blows better?"
"I'm about to talk to the Duke, can you bless me with a silver tongue?"
"I'm about to jump over this ravine, can you bless my legs with strength?"

Etc.

[Flashy]

Why aren't the players walking up to the cleric and asking for guidance? It's really useful.

For real. I bother the bard in my group for inspiration all the time. It seems like it should be basically the same thing.

[RickAllison]

For real. I bother the bard in my group for inspiration all the time. It seems like it should be basically the same thing.

Maybe the character is a misotheist? Someone who knows there are gods, but hates them. Seems like a pretty dangerous belief, but to each their own.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Maybe the character is a misotheist? Someone who knows there are gods, but hates them. Seems like a pretty dangerous belief, but to each their own.

In a world where the existence, usefulness of the gods (and the benevolence of some of them) is a provable fact, that's not merely dangerous, it's insane. That's like hating doctors so much you refuse to use medicine.

(It's especially insane in the Forgotten Realms, where not worshipping a God is the one surefire way to condemn yourself to eternal torment.)

[tieren]

Don't forget the Help action too, when there isn't a pressing reason not to, most skill checks should be made with +1d4 and advantage.

[RickAllison]

In a world where the existence, usefulness of the gods (and the benevolence of some of them) is a provable fact, that's not merely dangerous, it's insane. That's like hating doctors so much you refuse to use medicine.

(It's especially insane in the Forgotten Realms, where not worshipping a God is the one surefire way to condemn yourself to eternal torment.)

Someone would have to have a pretty significant reason to take that belief, it's true...

[RulesJD]

Someone would have to have a pretty significant reason to take that belief, it's true...

If you happen to play AL there's an author only adventure where you encounter that very thing.

Basically a group that believes gods = just really powerful mortals with magic. Insert Arthur Clarke quote here and all, but there is a difference.

[Segev]

Maybe the character is a misotheist? Someone who knows there are gods, but hates them. Seems like a pretty dangerous belief, but to each their own.That would explain why a rare character might do that. But that's a far cry from the implied creeped-out vibe from PCs who have a cleric friend who keeps casting guidance on them. To which the question, "Why WOULD NOT you be asking for it, actively?" was the response.


Don't forget the Help action too, when there isn't a pressing reason not to, most skill checks should be made with +1d4 and advantage.Ooh, even better. I mean, he's right there providing guidance; may as well offer some mundane aid as well.

[MeeposFire]

That would explain why a rare character might do that. But that's a far cry from the implied creeped-out vibe from PCs who have a cleric friend who keeps casting guidance on them. To which the question, "Why WOULD NOT you be asking for it, actively?" was the response.

Ooh, even better. I mean, he's right there providing guidance; may as well offer some mundane aid as well.

Be a mastermind rogue with magic initiate or a trickster cleric level (or other cleric but trickster fits the best) and you are the guilds best helper operative.

[Flashy]

Be a mastermind rogue with magic initiate or a trickster cleric level (or other cleric but trickster fits the best) and you are the guilds best helper operative.

Mastermind with Magic Initiate: Cleric for Guidance and Bless is a character I'm desperate to play.

[lightcat]

I think it is important to remember that Guidance verifiably works. A 12.5% increase is noticeable, and would be appreciated. DO you think a basketball player wouldn't notice a 12% increase in their free throw percentage? Not only should they be accepting the help, they should be asking for it. Making a risky climb up to the ledge? Have the cleric give everyone a prayer before they start up. Same before the rogue tries to pick that lock. I used to have a pirate campaign where my cleric often stood next to the ship pilot during the chase scene just giving them guidance.
Refusing to let the cleric cast guidance would be like deciding to go for a swim in boots, jeans and a sweatshirt instead of a swimsuit. Sure you might still be able to do it, but why would you want to make it harder on yourself?

Maintaining the realism of the game is valuable to me. Overuse of guidance is an over reliance on god sourced magical powers (cleric), or nature sourced magical powers (druid). Yeah if you are a cleric or druid who doesn't care about this so be it, but remember that you get all your magical powers from these greater sources. And these sources would most definitely dole out some consequences if you are using their inspiration to help your friend 20 times a day. Nature has consequences. Gods have consequences.

An appropriate way to respond to over use of guidance is to throw in new guidelines after a certain number of uses (which I keep low, 2 a day). For example, at the 3rd use of guidance a d4 roll of 1 or 2 = -1 or -2 on the characters next ability check, and the d4 roll is done by me, behind the DM screen. Rolls become progressively more challenging the more the spell is used.

If I were a god, which I am, because I'm a DM, that is how I would respond.

[DarkKnightJin]

I picked Guidance for some flavor on my Cleric, and found that I was using it a lot. I reigned myself in, because it wasn't really a lot of fun using it for everything. I try to keep in mind if there would be IC time to cast it before I make a check. Ambushed? Sorry, you can't get the Guidance off in time for Initiative. Checking a room you just cleared out? You got a few seconds to ask for a bit of help in checking it thoroughly for whatever secrets it holds.

[bid]

If I were a god, which I am, because I'm a DM, that is how I would respond.
Even if you are a god of death, don't necro 2 year old threads.

[LeonBH]

Yes, always have Guidance up. The only time I don't cast it is when my allies do things without telling me, or I'm already concentrating on Cat's Grace (for Adv to Stealth checks).

[Roland St. Jude]

Thread Necromancy is disfavored here. Please don't.