Spot DC question -- players of rick's campaign stay out :-)

[rrwoods]

I have an encounter planned where the start of the encounter will (very roughly) go something like this:

As the PCs enter the main street of a small town, a despairing lost (MoI) is wandering toward a tavern, where a combat encounter is (very roughly) "scheduled" to take place. Several wrathful lost inside the tavern are the main fight, but if the despairing lost makes it inside, s/he will also fight the PCs. I want to give the PCs the opportunity to notice and identify the despairing lost as a lost before s/he enters the tavern, thus splitting up the encounter if they are observant enough.

My question is this: How do I determine the Spot DC to notice the lost in the first place?

Identification I'm assuming is a matter of DM fiat, though if I'm wrong about that I'd love to know. For some reason I'm under the impression that there are rules regarding the DC to notice it, but maybe I need to wing that as well?

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm pretty sure the spot check to notice the Lost is just a normal spot check (DC 0 if not hiding, -1 penalty to the roll for every 10 ft of distance, -5 penalty to the roll if the spotter is distracted - if they are hiding the base DC is equal to their Hide check), but then there is a knowledge check (local if humanoid) to recognize the base creature and another knowledge check (arcana for the incarnum subtype) to recognize the template. At least that's how we usually handle it.

[Elder_Basilisk]

1. Is it hiding?

1.5 If not, PCs notice it automatically. Do not go further.

2. If it is hiding, roll stealth (or hide and move silently in 3.5). Apply appropriate modifiers (distance, distractions, visibility, etc).

2.5 Players roll perception or spot and listen. If they beat the stealth (or hide and move silently check), they spot the creature.

2.75 If the creature is pretending to be something else, rolling perception or spot vs disguise and (assuming they pass that check) the appropriate knowledge check to recognize the creature for what it is is appropriate. If the creature has weapons, PCs would also make a perception vs sleight of hand check to notice the fact that he's hiding a hand crossbow or other weapon under his cloak.

2.875 If the creature is traveling with hostile intent, a sense motive vs the creature's bluff (with a bonus for minimal interaction) might be appropriate even if the creature is not recognized for what it is. This step is not necessarily explicitly in the rules but might well be appropriate if you have PCs who are good at sense motive.

For example, a drow disguised as a human is walking towards the courthouse to assassinate the judge.
1. He is not hiding. There is no spot/perception check necessary to notice him.
2.75 He is pretending to be something he is not. If the PCs beat his disguise and make the super easy knowledge: local check for humanoids, they recognize that he is a drow. Disguised drow going anywhere are never up to any good.
2.875 Even if the PCs don't realize that he's a drow, they might with a successful sense motive check, notice that the drow is trying too hard not to draw attention--their trained attention to behavior indicates that he is up to no good--maybe he's on his way to shoot up the courtroom with a repeating crossbow or something. The PCs don't know that he's a drow, but they do suspect that he's up to no good.

[rrwoods]

1. Is it hiding?

1.5 If not, PCs notice it automatically. Do not go further.
Hm. It's not hiding, but it *is* on the other side of a busy street. If there aren't rules to handle that somehow I may just wing it then.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Hm. It's not hiding, but it *is* on the other side of a busy street. If there aren't rules to handle that somehow I may just wing it then.

It's interpretation, but I'd go for a knowledge check (possibly at a penalty for distraction since the base knowledge check DC assumes you're in combat with the creature and that's not the situation) then. It's not so much whether or not the PCs see the creature as whether or not they recognize it for what it is. If some celebrity is on the other side of the street, whether or not you "see" them is not so much a question of whether you see them as it is of whether you recognize them. If you don't recognize them, there are a bunch of people on the other side of the street. If you do recognize them, there's Arnold Schwartzenager and Sylvester Stalone plus entourage on the other side of the street going home after filming Expendables IV (or whatever).

Knowledge checks are the 3.5 and 3.p way to see if you recognize a creature.

[Doctor Despair]

Hm. It's not hiding, but it *is* on the other side of a busy street. If there aren't rules to handle that somehow I may just wing it then.

How wide is a busy street? Let's say 10 feet. So we place the party on the other side...

X|XX|X
L|XX|P
X|XX|X

Here, there is 10 feet of distance, and if it is a *busy* street, the party is distracted. The DC, then, should be something like 6 to notice the Drow (5 for the distracton of a busy street, 1 for the ten feet of distance) -- and if the party is not called to make a spot check, it is assumed that they are taking 10 as they walk, so they should automatically make that check unless they somehow have negative modifiers to their own spot in addition to a poor wisdom score. In fact, they should notice the Lost from 50 feet away if they have average wisdom scores -- use the best score in the party for this, so add 10 feet for every +1 bonus in the highest party wisdom score.

If you really want some sort of spot check, then you could have the Lost behind some sort of cover and add your own circumstantial modifiers to the situation. Perhaps the Lost are out of sight because of some carts, but because they are aggressive, there is some sort of scuffle going on behind passing carts visible as a flicker of movement; let's say you set the DC at 16 (circumstantial +10 to the DC). They can't make that by taking 10 unless they have ranks in spot. Now they have to make a check to notice them from across the street. Does that sound more to your liking?

[BowStreetRunner]

Hm. It's not hiding, but it *is* on the other side of a busy street. If there aren't rules to handle that somehow I may just wing it then.

Base DC is 0. Apply a -1 penalty to the roll for every 10 feet. Apply a -5 penalty to the roll if the spotter is distracted. Keep in mind that unless they have a special ability such as Camouflage or Hide in Plain sight a character will need cover or concealment to even make an attempt to hide. The soft cover rules make it clear that other creatures do not allow you to make a hide check, so a crowd won't work without some special ability (or DM fiat). Also, if the Lost is moving more than one half speed then they would receive a penalty to Hide.

Per Cityscape (p147), a dark alley can offer a circumstance bonus to Hide checks of between +1 to +3.

Personally, if all of the Hide bonuses/Spot penalties don't add up to the players failing if taking 10 on the Spot, I would just assume they see the Lost. Make them make knowledge (arcana) checks to identify it and if they fail then they just see it as another normal humanoid.

[Troacctid]

It would be somewhat unusual to encounter a Lost capable of pretending to be human. Most of them are too deformed to pass and to insane to bother—they just hang around their Lost Site instead. It's not impossible, but it's unlikely.

A Spot check would notice their deformity—opposed by the Lost's Disguise check, if they're actively trying to hide it—but don't forget that there's also a Listen check to hear their unnaturally amplified heartbeat, DC 20 plus distance modifiers.

[Rangô]

Hm. It's not hiding, but it *is* on the other side of a busy street. If there aren't rules to handle that somehow I may just wing it then.

There's a rule in fact, you can find it in Complete Adventurer, amplied skills description section, to Hide among the crowd, It seems like he's trying to mask his race so I'll allow a bluff versus sense motive if ther's some type of interaction.