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View Full Version : Critique my Tweaks Part 1 – Avatar Monk and Beast Master Hunter



mer.c
2016-03-10, 10:46 PM
I'm DMing for some friends, and I've made a point of looking up and tooling with they classes they're interested in playing next. One's considering a Beast Master, and another's looking at a Monk of the Four Elements. I'm hoping to make changes that are pretty easy to comprehend, thematic, and small-ish. I don't want to reimagine or rebalance the whole class/kit, just nudge it in the direction of being more fun and/or better balanced.

So, here are the problems as I understand them, and how I'm planning on addressing them. I'd love to hear what people think about them. I don't have much experience yet with 5e, so any feedback or insight would be great!

Beast Master
Problem: Lags behind a bit in utility, and also feels kind of bad when you're best off just leaving your pet to stand around because it's not worth blowing an action on.

Tweaks:

Ranger
Ranger – Beast Master
Coordinated Assault: Starting at 3rd level, when you hit a creature that is within 5’ of your beast with a melee or ranged attack, you may spend your reaction to command your beast to make one attack against the same target as an action. If you are not within 5’ of the target, your beast makes this attack with disadvantage.

Exceptional Training (changed): Starting at 7th level, your beast gains the following abilities. When your beast takes the Help, Harry, or Harrow action as a bonus action, it cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Your beast can take the Help action as a bonus action.
Your beast can Harry a creature within 5' as a bonus action. That creature has disadvantage on its next attack roll.
Your beast can Harrow a creature within 5' as a bonus action. That creature has disadvantage on its next saving throw, ability check, or ability contest (your choice).
Your beast can take the Dash, Disengage, or Dodge action as a bonus action.


Reasoning: The idea here is to boost the Ranger's damage output and utility, while also making it less punitive to use the companion. The idea of Ranger and companion working together instead of working kind of at odds with one another is really appealing to me. The new Exceptional Training gives Beast Masters a few cooldowns they can blow for nice effects, which should help them feel more punchy and awesome without, I hope, tipping them into OP territory.


Coordinated Assault: Starting at 3rd level, you gain the following abilities. You may only use one of these abilities per turn, and only once per turn.

When you hit a target with a melee or ranged attack, if that target is within 5’ of your beast, you may spend your reaction to command your beast to make one attack against the same target as a reaction. If you are not within 5’ of the target, your beast makes this attack with disadvantage.
As a bonus action, you may command your beast to take the Dash or Disengage action as a bonus action.

Primal Hunter (replaces Exceptional Training)
Starting at 7th level, creatures provoke opportunity attacks from your beast even if they take the Disengage action before leaving its reach.
When your beast makes an opportunity attack, you may spend your reaction to give it advantage on the attack roll. If you do and the attack hits, the target must make a Strength saving throw vs. DC 8 + your Proficiency modifier + your Wisdom modifier. If it fails this save, its speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
If you are not within 5’ of the target, your beast has disadvantage on this roll instead of advantage.

The 5' stipulations are simply because I imagine a ranged Ranger has a lot less to do with reactions than a melee ranger, so I wanted to balance the action economy aspect with some sort of disadvantage. But if people think that's going overboard, I'm not wedded to the idea.

I'd thought about different effects in place of the Sentinel-Lite ability, but I couldn't decide on anything better. Lots of pets already have knockdown effects, so that would be redundant. Maybe instead, the beast could give a penalty to attacks or something? I'm not sure.


Way of the Four Elements
Problem: Unless you meet specific AoE requirements, the damage boosts from Elemental Disciplines don't measure up to the other uses of Ki. Also, since every Avatar monk ability takes Ki, it can run out quickly at low levels.

Tweaks:

Inner Harmony: Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, your maximum Ki is increased by an amount equal to your wisdom modifier.

Rushing River Technique: Starting at 6th level, when you use an Elemental Discipline, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.


Reasoning: Lots of people have floated the +Ki equal to Wisdom modifier idea, and I think that does a good job of helping out at low levels where the Ki is the tightest. Simple, elegant, gets the job done.

But easing the Ki economy doesn't address the fact that the kit struggles to get as much out of its kit-specific perks than out of the class's generic abilities. I don't know if this goes far enough, or if it goes too far, or somewhere in between, or both at once, or whatever. If it's not enough, the number of attacks could be upped. If it's too much, perhaps it could lose its ability score modifier to the damage. As for it being specifically "one unarmed strike as a bonus action," I just wanted to keep it consistent with the extra attack off Martial Arts.

I do note like the names for these abilities. I just made up some random mystical Wuxia sounding s*** so it would sound thematic. ;)


I have a bunch more tweaks I'm working on, including some juicy ones like a feat for maintaining dual concentration. But I'll leave it with just these for now since I feel like I'm about at the limit of what I can do other than run them in a campaign or turn them over for community scrutiny. :)

Talamare
2016-03-11, 01:13 AM
Woah that Lv3 BM addition is awesome

As well as I suggested those exact same Avatar changes in a different thread a few days ago XD
Altho that only fixes 1 of 2 problems Avatar has, the 2nd being the options are way too limited


I don't like the Lv7 BM change at all
Oh and the 2nd major problem BM has is that the Beasts are way too squishy and its disappointing that all beasts eventually end up with same hp
I personally really like the idea that Beasts gain ADDITIONAL HP equal to Ranger Lv x4
There is also a suggestion in which whatever Die size the beast get, the beast gets that each of your levels.

Addaran
2016-03-11, 10:17 AM
Primal Hunter (replaces Exceptional Training)
Starting at 7th level, creatures provoke opportunity attacks from your beast even if they take the Disengage action before leaving its reach.
When your beast makes an opportunity attack, you may spend your reaction to give it advantage on the attack roll. If you do and the attack hits, the target must make a Strength saving throw vs. DC 8 + your Proficiency modifier + your Wisdom modifier. If it fails this save, its speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
If you are not within 5’ of the target, your beast has disadvantage on this roll instead of advantage.



So the beast get a normal AoO. If you use your reaction and it's near you, it gets advantage and Sentinel (good). If you use your reaction and it's far, its gets disadvantage (worst then when do nothing?) and Sentinel. So i'd say if you aren't without 5' of the target, it gets the Sentinel, but not disadvantage, just a normal AoO.

Love Coordinated Assault. =D

mer.c
2016-03-11, 11:22 AM
Woah that Lv3 BM addition is awesome

As well as I suggested those exact same Avatar changes in a different thread a few days ago XD
Altho that only fixes 1 of 2 problems Avatar has, the 2nd being the options are way too limited

Good point about the limited options for Way of the Four Elements. It does seem like giving a few more Disciplines would help on the feel and utility end without overpowering the kit. I'd be a little hesitant to tie it to Wisdom ability score modifier because that would be a huge increase in the number of Disciplines at low levels. Going from 1 at level 3 (excluding Elemental Attunement) to 4 or 5 seems excessive. Maybe one extra Discipline each time you get one? So two at level 3, four at level 6, six at 11, eight at level 17?

Also, glad you liked the Level 3 Beast Master change! I think of the tweaks I've made, that's my favorite. It just feels really good, and while we'll have to see how it plays out, it seems like it's the right amount of utility and extra punching power for the kit.


I don't like the Lv7 BM change at all

Yeah, I'm actually not a big fan of the Level 7 Beast Master ability either. I was trying to give the utility of Exceptional Training, which is made somewhat redundant by my tweak to level 3. But I don't think it works well on any level.

Maybe instead of the total re-envisioning of the feat, I could retool Exceptional Training to something like this:

Exceptional Training:
Starting at 6th level, you gain the following abilities:

As a bonus action, you can command your companion to take the Help action as a bonus action. Once you use this ability, you cannot use it again until you and your beast finish a long or short rest.
As a bonus action, you can command your companion to Harry a creature within 5' as a bonus action. That creature has disadvantage on its next attack roll. Once you use this ability, you cannot use it again until you and your beast finish a long or short rest.
As a bonus action, you can command your companion to Harrow a creature within 5' as a bonus action. That creature has disadvantage on its next saving throw. Once you use this ability, you cannot use it again until you and your beast finish a long or short rest.
As a bonus action, you can command your companion to take the Dodge action as a bonus action.


It wouldn't be able to Help/Harry/Harrow/Dodge on top of the Dash/Disengage from Coordinated Assault, because both action sets require the Ranger's and Companion's bonus action. But you could have it take its reaction attack off of Coordinated Assault and then have it Dodge as many time as you want, or Help/Harry/Harrow once per short rest. It does seem weird letting it Help, say, pick a lock or make a Deception check, but that's actually allowed as an action in RAW. So… revel in it I guess!

I also considered making the Help/Harry/Harrow reactions and not bonus actions, but then things start getting complicated with which ones are bonus actions vs. reactions, what can be combined together, etc. And while using the reaction attack (plus attacks off skipping an Extra Attack for Bestial Fury attacks) on top of giving advantage/disadvantage is strong, it's limited to once per short rest, with only a 50% chance of yielding a more favorable roll, and without any guarantee that that more favorable roll would hit a breakpoint. So my gut feeling is that it would be balanced while still being a lot of fun.

Speaking of which, someone recently pointed out that Beast Masters have the problem of just not having any really epic "Big Damn Hero" cooldowns to burn. Giving them companion-driven source of advantage/disadvantage tied to short rests would help give them those moments of, "Yeah, that awesome thing that just happened? That was all me."


Oh and the 2nd major problem BM has is that the Beasts are way too squishy and its disappointing that all beasts eventually end up with same hp
I personally really like the idea that Beasts gain ADDITIONAL HP equal to Ranger Lv x4
There is also a suggestion in which whatever Die size the beast get, the beast gets that each of your levels.

I was wondering about that. The bonus-action Dodge outlined above would help with the squishiness somewhat – or a lot, actually! My fear with letting companions use their Hit Dice size for HP gain on level-up is that it may cause high-HD beasts to outstrip other companions, who don't get that perk and get nothing additional to balance it out. It does feel kind of bad to have them all have the same HP, although the additional Base HP+Level*4 idea would help with that a little. But since companions can spend HD on rest, creatures with bigger HD are effectively tougher over the course of multiple encounters.

It feels like differentiating companion types would require a lot of extra rules for different beasts, so for now I think I'll just leave it as-is aside from adopting base HP + Ranger Level*4, plus maybe the bonus-action Dodge to help with squishiness.

Anyways, thank you for the feedback! I'll get to work integrating your suggestions. Kudos! :smallsmile:

PoeticDwarf
2016-03-11, 01:04 PM
One thing. Later I'll give real feedback.

The level 3 feature is against the rules. You can't use your reaction on your turn

mer.c
2016-03-11, 01:19 PM
One thing. Later I'll give real feedback.

The level 3 feature is against the rules. You can't use your reaction on your turn

Hmm, interesting. I hadn't noticed that. If the mechanic goes over well, you could get the same result by just preventing the Ranger from making reactions until your next turn. The important part to me is forcing the player to make some sort of tradeoff (sacrificing your reaction/opportunity attack is no small deal, at least for a melee Ranger) rather than just being a free source of extra damage.

DragonBaneDM
2016-03-11, 01:56 PM
I was going to comment on the reaction issue as well. Is the BM's bonus action tied up?

mer.c
2016-03-11, 02:41 PM
I was going to comment on the reaction issue as well. Is the BM's bonus action tied up?

As-is, I was hoping to make the Ranger give up something a little more valuable (opportunity attack, or any reaction spells) to get the extra attack. But it could also work as a bonus action. It would then compete commanding the companion to take the Help/Harry/Harrow/Dodge bonus actions I outlined later.

I'm partial to making the Coordinated Assault bonus attack compete with taking the Ranger and companion take attacks of opportunity, but I'm open to persuasion on that. :) It would just need a little rewording to make it compatible with the reaction rule.

Talamare
2016-03-11, 06:44 PM
One thing. Later I'll give real feedback.

The level 3 feature is against the rules. You can't use your reaction on your turn

Yes you can, you're thinking 4e when that was illegal.

Reaction on p190
"which can occur on your turn or on someone else's."

Vogonjeltz
2016-03-11, 10:26 PM
Problem: Unless you meet specific AoE requirements, the damage boosts from Elemental Disciplines don't measure up to the other uses of Ki. Also, since every Avatar monk ability takes Ki, it can run out quickly at low levels.

Strictly speaking using ki for the Four Elements spells is always more efficient than any other use.

But the proposed changes would obviously be desirable additional bonuses.

PoeticDwarf
2016-03-12, 02:19 AM
Yes you can, you're thinking 4e when that was illegal.

Reaction on p190
"which can occur on your turn or on someone else's."

My mistake, sorry for that