3.5 - Build me the best Gestalt Devil Summoner build?

[SecretlyaFish]

So I recently thought on a tiefling cleric as a character for our next campaign, and being lawful evil I wanted to specialize in summoning Devil minions to do my bidding and deal most of my dmg/perform a lot of the things I just can't do myself, such as summoning/hiring an Imp for subterfuge etc. I realize that wizards though have more spells so, I'm not settled on any one particular thing yet.

But it really got me thinking and I realized there are just so many classes and prestige classes out there, and even though I have every pdf almost for 3.0 and 3.5, I still don't know much about the game and I'm horrible at optimization. I've never been a power gamer or really understood how its done, I'm just not very smart in those area's. My DM is a very reasonable guy and he even allows players to play more powerful races (within reason) with no LA, or add bonus feats etc based on how well done your back story is and how well you roleplay the character.

This will be my first shot at making a fully optimized build. I did find this link : http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Summoner_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build) here. I'm not sure how good it is but it wasn't specifically tailored to summoning devils so I wasn't sure. Red Wizard also will not fit with my character by any means, so I wonder if there are any other alternatives out there that are just as good or better? The idea of my character is that I worship one of the Arch Devils, not sure which one yet, so I'm open to suggestions, Asmodeus seems to be the most powerful. But yeah, summoning Devils to do my bidding, perhaps going invisible or even taking the form of a Devil in order to buff resistences and fighting ability once my summons are in place, perhaps high end permanent cohorts at the highest levels.

Anyways, would one of you guys kindly take pity on me and kind of map out what the best summoner build up to say.... Level 25 would be? I'll be starting at level 1, probably with no LA. My DM makes us all do our ability rolls in front of him but we are allowed to roll 5d6's and then reroll the lowest 2, so abilities shouldn't be an issue at all. Let me know what you guys think I've never been so excited to make a character before. Also this is all for 3.5 edition.

[Bullet06320]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2791.0
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444042-Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11186

these are must reads for a summoner build of any type

and one piece of advice is to keep in mind above all else is to keep track of all summoned critters stats on index cards or in a note book for easy reference, and page number references. It will make gameplay go much more smoother instead of constantly flipping through books when its your turn in combat, that always slows the game the down.

the best builds for summoning, regardless of type of critters usually start with conjuror specialist wizard
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants
taking
Rapid Summoning (Ex)

Any time a conjurer using this variant casts a summon monster spell, its casting time is 1 standard action rather than 1 full round. (Creatures so summoned can only take a standard action in the round they are summoned.) Conjurers using this variant gain the normal benefits from enhancing a summon monster spell with the Quicken Spell feat.

A conjurer using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

Enhanced Summoning (Ex)

At 1st level, a conjurer using this variant gains the Augmented Summoning feat for free instead of the Scribe Scroll feat.


A conjurer using this variant does not gain bonus feats for advancing as a wizard.

you can also take the Focused Specialist ACF from complete mage, it gives you more spells per day for your chosen school for the cost of 1 regular spell, and you must ban a 3rd school

for banned school go with illusion, evocation, and necromancy
you cant ban diviniation, you need abjuration for magic circle spells for when planar binding comes online, transmutation is too useful for buffing, and enchantment is too useful for manipulating your planar bindings

take 2 flaws for 2 extra feats at first level
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm

for stats you want your highest in Int. cha can be useful, dex for touch attacks for the orb spells, con for hps, str is a dump stat, and so is wisdom

so at first level you have 3 feats available depending on race
spell focus conjuration is number one
taking scribe scroll wont hurt you, as you lost it for an ACF earlier
improved initiative wouldn't hurt, getting to plop down your critters before others can act is always a good thing
Precocious Apprentice Complete Arcane pg181 and Collegiate Wizard Complete Arcane pg 181 are also good at first level, you get more spells per level and a bonus 2nd level spell slot, that can be used to early entry into master specialist(some debate on that though) by one level

for skills. assuming 18 in int, you have at least 6 class skills you can max out, spellcraft, concentration, knowledge arcana and knowledge planes are all must haves, you want to a few ranks in bluff, its cross class but useful later. languages is important too, infernal, abyssal, celestial, the elemental languages too.

then as soon as you can, go master specialist, its seriously the easiest PRC to meet the requirements if your a specialist wizard, if you take all ten levels, it puts you right into arcmage needing only 1 feat, and I would recommend spell focus abjuration if you go that route
but taking 4 levels of master specialist is a good breaking point, then going malconvoker, that's where the ranks in bluff come in. you lose a level of casting, but its one few Prcs that's its ok to lose one castor level

thaumaturge is another good prestige class, just use the retraining rules to get rid of the augment summoning you already have for the one you get as a class ability, you just need to find a way to get lessor planar ally as an arcane spell, there are ways out there.

other good feats are extend spell, making summons last longer, invisible spell, makes your summons invisible(there is some debate on that one though)
cloudy cogitation and summon elemental reserve feat are good useful utility spells

the real fun comes in when planar binding comes online, that's when you break the game

these are all starting points, but an optimized summonor is one of the more powerful builds in the game, the options are endless, and the number of books that gets thrown at you is quite astounding, lol

one of the current characters I'm playing is a gestalt conjuror/archivist, with a lot more cheese added into it, including some 3rd party material

[Pluto!]

The linked build is really, really bad. Mystic Theurge is not your friend.

Malconvoker isn't quite as strong as your vanilla Wizard, but it's built specifically for summoning devils and negotiating Faustian contracts, and eventually gets some pretty strong features for it.

Thaumaturgist is strong, as mentioned, but it isn't strong enough to justify the Mystic Theurge nonsense from that dandwiki page. If you want its sweet, sweet Summoning Contingencies and mini-Leadership, just take Arcane Disciple (Summoning Domain) to add Planar Ally as a spell known. Then you don't have to hamstring your summons by delaying your spellcasting those 3 levels.

[Bullet06320]

nonsense from that dandwiki page.
I meant to mention something about that, pretty much ignore dndwiki, its notoriously inaccurate and full of homebrew mislabeled as such


Arcane Disciple (Summoning Domain) to add Planar Ally as a spell known.
thank you, couldn't recall that off the top of my head, was back and forth cooking dinner while writing my original post

[SecretlyaFish]

Holy cow!!! Let me first thank you guys for the information! I really wasn't sure what to expect but now my mind is kind of flying around with possibilities!

I've heard of gestalt characters but never gave them much of a look. I think that could be exactly what I need for the idea of my character to come to fruition. I'm thinking of Cleric/Wizard. I can pick 2 domains and then specialize in conjuration and go with either of the special abilities. One thing I don't really understand about gestalt characters is how do they multiclass? I've tried looking up guides etc but I ended up just becoming very confused.

As I understand it, for an example, my character would look like this at 15th level, Cleric 15//Wizard 10/Thaumaturgist5? Is that right? I keep looking for the catch I guess, that makes it all seem too good to be true. In single combat gestalt could be beat possibly by another standard class of the same level but, holy crap it just opens up so many more possibilities in terms of roleplay and out of combat bonuses.

Since my character is Lawful Evil, I cannot be a Malconvoker, but the concept of it is really cool I think, summoning devils to defeat devils, pretty neat idea. So far I'm definately thinking Thaumaturgist needs to be a part of my build, its abilities are just too good to pass up for my build, both in terms of power and roleplaying. The cohort ability will be awesome. Also, I realize for example the archivist lets me learn divine spells but since I will be directly worshiping and serving one of the Arch Devil's as a priest I kind of need to go with Cleric.

So far, here is my build.

Tiefling Gestalt Cleric1//Focused Conjurer1.
Feats :
Spell Focus : Conjuration
Augment Summoning (flaw)
Improved initiative (flaw 2)
Scribe Scroll

I'm honestly not sure what specialization to pick. Being able to summon as a standard action is huge. But getting augment summoning at first level is really useful as well, and besides RP purposes I can't see myself using scribe scroll much. The bonus feats as a wizard combined with the cleric feats I'll already get could be big though, an extra item creation or metamagic feat could be really useful, thoughts? Also for rapid summoning, it says specifically "anytime you cast a summon monster spell". Does that mean spells like gate, planar binding, etc, do not apply?

For classes I'm thinking Thaumaturgist later, up to level 5, obviously going into enhancing my Wizard casting. Haven't honestly thought ahead much of first level, not too good at planning and it would be cool to have this build planned out to level 25. Maybe a homebrewed updated version of one of the disciple of X classes? A few of them let you enhance spellcasting, so won't take much of a hit there. In the end the idea is to be throwing around gates, greater planar bindings and summon monster 9s with ease.

[Troacctid]

You didn't mention that this is a gestalt game. That would make Malconvoker a must-have, as you wouldn't lose out on any casting for it like you normally would.

[SecretlyaFish]

You didn't mention that this is a gestalt game. That would make Malconvoker a must-have, as you wouldn't lose out on any casting for it like you normally would.

My apologies. I just looked up gestalt and decided thats what I wanted to do. I've changed the title. I'd love to try Malconvoker but unfortunately my alignment conflicts. Would it be possible for the DM to lift the alignment requirement, or is the non evil part of the class rather important to it? The idea is that I am an ally to the devils rather than an enemy.

[khadgar567]

Problem is you said gestalt and summoner if pathfinder alivable then go summoner on one side conjuring wizard on the other side and prepare for your dm rage railroad the camphing for more shenanigans use reqular summoner

[Troacctid]

Gestalt is a variant game rule that applies to every player, so typically it's the DM's decision whether or not to use it. You'd have to talk to your DM about it.

Malconvoker with no loss of casting is very strong, as it essentially doubles all of your summoning spells for free. That's huge. It's definitely worth doing some finagling to get it to work with your character--whether that means massaging your concept to work with a different alignment, or talking to your DM about adapting it to a lawful evil character.

Thaumaturgist is also quite good, and I recommend taking both if possible.

[Bullet06320]

you can take all 3 ACFs (Alternative Class Feature) as long as you met the requirements

as for alignment, well...maybe try LN, and don't do as much outright evil?

for gestalt you end up with a lot more cheese, but more interesting options, for example the current build I'm working with is

level 1 conjuror1/human paragon1
level 2 conjuror2/archivist 1
level 3 master specialist 1/archivist 2
level 4 master specialist 2/archivist 3
level 5 master specialist 3/archivist 4
level 6 master specialist 4/archivist 5
level 7 malconvoker 1/human paragon 2 devoting the spellcasting from human paragon to my wizard levels, so no loss of caster level
level 8 malconvoker 2/archivist 6
level 9 malconvoker 3/archivist 7
level 10 metaphysical spellshaper 1/archivist 8 metaphysical spellshaper is from the book of erotic fantasy
level 11 metaphysical spellshaper2/archivist 9
level 12 metaphysical spellshaper 3/archivist 10
level 13 dark scholar 1/ human paragon 3 with the spellcasting for the level going to wizards so no loss of caster level
level 14 dark scholar 2/archivist 11 dark scholar is from The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, an adventure
level 15 dark scholar 3/archivist 12
level 16 thaumaturgist 1/archivist 13
level 17 thaumaturgist 2/archivist 14
level 18 thaumaturgist 3/archivist 15
level 19 thaumaturgist 4/archivist 16
level 20 thaumaturgist 5/archivist 17

we are currently level 20, hitting 21 soon, not sure where I'm going with it yet, but I got some ideas
some of the more unusual things
Red Head feat from Raven loft campaign setting, lets you get 1 1st level druid spell as an SLA, I chose Summon Fay from Kingdom of Kalamar campaign setting
also miser with magic from that book
Theurgic Specialist from Dragon Magazine 325 pg 62 must be a specialist wizard and for your specialty school it adds all levels from all casting classes together, so that's a caster level of 37 for conjuration spells just from my spellcasting levels, its just broken for gestalt, lol

Academic (The Quintessential Wizard pgs 4-5) its screwy little ACF that gives you exploding skillpoints, its horribly broken, lol

that should give you an idea of some the really broken things possible, especially when I'm using a little broken 3rd party stuff in there

[SecretlyaFish]

Problem is you said gestalt and summoner if pathfinder alivable then go summoner on one side conjuring wizard on the other side and prepare for your dm rage railroad the camphing for more shenanigans use reqular summoner

Changed it so, that its 3.5, so shouldn't be any more mixups.


Gestalt is a variant game rule that applies to every player, so typically it's the DM's decision whether or not to use it. You'd have to talk to your DM about it.

Malconvoker with no loss of casting is very strong, as it essentially doubles all of your summoning spells for free. That's huge. It's definitely worth doing some finagling to get it to work with your character--whether that means massaging your concept to work with a different alignment, or talking to your DM about adapting it to a lawful evil character.

Thaumaturgist is also quite good, and I recommend taking both if possible.

DM will almost 100% allow it, and I think some of the other players may or may not want to play a gestalt. Its really up to them, none of them really care about being OP etc. Some of them might be happy with picking a more powerful race with no LA instead of picking gestalt. Our DM is really good about making everyone feel like their character is special.

Would you mind brainstorming with me to figure out how I could adapt that class to lawful evil? Our DM likes it when we do research etc beforehand instead of entirely relying on him. He will appreciate if I kind of have the concept of how that class would work for a lawful evil character he would probably appreciate it a lot more and be more receptive to it.


you can take all 3 ACFs (Alternative Class Feature) as long as you met the requirements

as for alignment, well...maybe try LN, and don't do as much outright evil?

for gestalt you end up with a lot more cheese, but more interesting options, for example the current build I'm working with is

level 1 conjuror1/human paragon1
level 2 conjuror2/archivist 1
level 3 master specialist 1/archivist 2
level 4 master specialist 2/archivist 3
level 5 master specialist 3/archivist 4
level 6 master specialist 4/archivist 5
level 7 malconvoker 1/human paragon 2 devoting the spellcasting from human paragon to my wizard levels, so no loss of caster level
level 8 malconvoker 2/archivist 6
level 9 malconvoker 3/archivist 7
level 10 metaphysical spellshaper 1/archivist 8 metaphysical spellshaper is from the book of erotic fantasy
level 11 metaphysical spellshaper2/archivist 9
level 12 metaphysical spellshaper 3/archivist 10
level 13 dark scholar 1/ human paragon 3 with the spellcasting for the level going to wizards so no loss of caster level
level 14 dark scholar 2/archivist 11 dark scholar is from The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, an adventure
level 15 dark scholar 3/archivist 12
level 16 thaumaturgist 1/archivist 13
level 17 thaumaturgist 2/archivist 14
level 18 thaumaturgist 3/archivist 15
level 19 thaumaturgist 4/archivist 16
level 20 thaumaturgist 5/archivist 17

we are currently level 20, hitting 21 soon, not sure where I'm going with it yet, but I got some ideas
some of the more unusual things
Red Head feat from Raven loft campaign setting, lets you get 1 1st level druid spell as an SLA, I chose Summon Fay from Kingdom of Kalamar campaign setting
also miser with magic from that book
Theurgic Specialist from Dragon Magazine 325 pg 62 must be a specialist wizard and for your specialty school it adds all levels from all casting classes together, so that's a caster level of 37 for conjuration spells just from my spellcasting levels, its just broken for gestalt, lol

Academic (The Quintessential Wizard pgs 4-5) its screwy little ACF that gives you exploding skillpoints, its horribly broken, lol

that should give you an idea of some the really broken things possible, especially when I'm using a little broken 3rd party stuff in there

I'm gonna try and go with as few combinations as possible. That seriously hurts my head looking at that. Ugh, I wish there was a really easy gestalt calculater somewhere, this is really gonna take a lot of work to do. I'm thinking full cleric unless I see something else, and Malconvoker 9 and Thaumaturg 5.

I will try to refrain from as many broken things as possible. I think my character will already be powerful enough, and my DM was none too happy when I started dominating almost every NPC he had interact with me when i played a vampire once. Nothing broken I guess just super optimized. I think maybe if I can work on that class a bit, and try and change the alignment requirement everything will go smoothly

[Bullet06320]

That seriously hurts my head looking at that.

lol, sorry

[SecretlyaFish]

lol, sorry

Its making more sense to me. I've just never looked at gestalt before until today so its confusing. Any ideas on how to change the Malconvoker into something for an evil character? Also, for a lot of the special abilities for classes and feats and specializations, it says summon monster spells. Does that mean just the specific summon monster spells or any spell that you can summon a monster from?

[Extra Anchovies]

You can fit all of Malconvoker, Fiendbinder, and Thaumaturgist in one gestalt build without losing a caster level, it just requires some very careful arrangement.



Level
Side 1
Side 2
Casting?


1
Wizard (Conjuror, Master Specialist, Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning)) 1
Factotum 1
Yes


2
Wizard 2
Factotum 2
Yes


3
Wizard 3
Factotum 3
Yes


4
Master Specialist 1
Factotum 4
Yes


5
Master Specialist 2
Factotum 5
Yes


6
Master Specialist 3
Factotum 6
Yes


7
Master Specialist 4
Factotum 7
Yes


8
Thaumaturgist 1
Factotum 8
Yes


9
Thaumaturgist 2
Fiendbinder 1
Yes


10
Thaumaturgist 3
Malconvoker 1
Yes


11
Fiendbinder 2
Malconvoker 2
Yes


12
Fiendbinder 3
Malconvoker 3
Yes


13
Fiendbinder 4
Malconvoker 4
Yes


14
Thaumaturgist 4
Fiendbinder 5
Yes


15
Fiendbinder 6
Malconvoker 5
Yes


16
Fiendbinder 7
Malconvoker 6
Yes


17
Fiendbinder 8
Malconvoker 7
Yes


18
Thaumaturgist 5
Fiendbinder 9
Yes


19
Fiendbinder 10
Malconvoker 8
Yes


20
Master Specialist 5
Malconvoker 9
Yes


The Factotum levels are for access to Truespeak and Bluff to meet the Fiendbinder and Malconvoker prerequisites, and also for the ever-cheesy Cunning Surge - which, combined with the Rapid Summoning ACF, allows for multiple summons per round.

Your first couple feats should be as follows:
1st: Nexus Method (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Nexus_Method)
Wizard: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3rd: Augment Summoning
6th: Arcane Disciple (Summoning)

[SecretlyaFish]

You can fit all of Malconvoker, Fiendbinder, and Thaumaturgist in one gestalt build without losing a caster level, it just requires some very careful arrangement.



Level
Side 1
Side 2
Casting?


1
Wizard (Conjuror, Master Specialist, Rapid Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning)) 1
Factotum 1
Yes


2
Wizard 2
Factotum 2
Yes


3
Wizard 3
Factotum 3
Yes


4
Master Specialist 1
Factotum 4
Yes


5
Master Specialist 2
Factotum 5
Yes


6
Master Specialist 3
Factotum 6
Yes


7
Master Specialist 4
Factotum 7
Yes


8
Thaumaturgist 1
Factotum 8
Yes


9
Thaumaturgist 2
Fiendbinder 1
Yes


10
Thaumaturgist 3
Malconvoker 1
Yes


11
Fiendbinder 2
Malconvoker 2
Yes


12
Fiendbinder 3
Malconvoker 3
Yes


13
Fiendbinder 4
Malconvoker 4
Yes


14
Thaumaturgist 4
Fiendbinder 5
Yes


15
Fiendbinder 6
Malconvoker 5
Yes


16
Fiendbinder 7
Malconvoker 6
Yes


17
Fiendbinder 8
Malconvoker 7
Yes


18
Thaumaturgist 5
Fiendbinder 9
Yes


19
Fiendbinder 10
Malconvoker 8
Yes


20
Master Specialist 5
Malconvoker 9
Yes


The Factotum levels are for access to Truespeak and Bluff to meet the Fiendbinder and Malconvoker prerequisites, and also for the ever-cheesy Cunning Surge - which, combined with the Rapid Summoning ACF, allows for multiple summons per round.

Your first couple feats should be as follows:
1st: Nexus Method (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Nexus_Method)
Wizard: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3rd: Augment Summoning
6th: Arcane Disciple (Summoning)

Thanks so much for this! I'm sorry I've been too tired to reply the last few days but that really gives me some interesting abilities. I've never heard of the Factotum or Fiendbinder before this, so I'll be doing more research and making a few mock characters. Really very cool and appreciate you taking the time to make that out for me. I'm curious as to why most people add the levels of master specialist in most builds? Usually always stopping at level 4. I looked at the ability for conjurer and its decent but I figured a few extra hit points wouldn't make that big of a difference.

Also, being a total noob, when I summon a monster like say, a Cornugon through Greater Planar Ally or Gate, do I have a mental connection with the creature and can therefor tell it how to use its abilities etc? Or does it wing combat and do what it likes, always been curious about that. Thanks!

[Pluto!]

Compared to normal Wizard, Master Specialist loses the level 5 feat, and gets two feats plus a couple abilities in return. It's just an easy and beneficial exchange for a Wizard who might take Spell Focus anyway.

[Extra Anchovies]

Thanks so much for this! I'm sorry I've been too tired to reply the last few days but that really gives me some interesting abilities. I've never heard of the Factotum or Fiendbinder before this, so I'll be doing more research and making a few mock characters.

You're welcome! I'll admit I already had the build stored away - I assembled it for a past game that never got off the ground. It is nice to pull it out again and take another look at it, though.

Factotum is a class from Dungeonscape. It's helpful here because it gets 6+Int skill points per level and has every skill as a class skill; Malconvoker and Fiendbinder both require skills that aren't on the Wizard list (Bluff and Truespeak). The Factotum also has a number of class features that use Inspiration, a resource pool with points determined by your Factotum class level that refills at the start of each encounter. Most of the Inspiration-based features are kinda meh, but at 8th level they get Cunning Surge, which lets you spend 3 Inspiration points to take an extra standard action during your turn. An 8th-level Factotum has 5 Inspiration points, and you can take the feat Font of Inspiration to bring that to 6. Two extra standard actions per combat is pretty great for a spellcaster, and I shouldn't have to explain why :smalltongue:

Fiendbinder is a prestige class from Tome of Magic. Its main feature is the ability to summon one or more evil outsiders from a short list and bind them into service by speaking their truename. Commanding them to do stuff is fairly action-intensive, but they make for nice guards and the number of fiends you can have bound is only limited by the GP you're willing to spend. The Truespeak DCs are pretty darn high, so it's not going to be terribly useful unless you can take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) - but if Item Familiar is allowed, you can have a nice posse of indefinitely-bound fiends.


Really very cool and appreciate you taking the time to make that out for me. I'm curious as to why most people add the levels of master specialist in most builds? Usually always stopping at level 4. I looked at the ability for conjurer and its decent but I figured a few extra hit points wouldn't make that big of a difference.

Master Specialist is there because you're taking Spell Focus anyway and it gives you a bit more than sticking with Wizard would, so you might as well. Also, something that I just realized is that you'll probably want to swap the fifth level of Master Specialist with the first level of Thaumaturge and use the MS's 5th-level Expanded Spellbook to add Lesser Planar Ally to your spellbook. That way you can skip Arcane Disciple, which saves you a feat and means you don't need to put points into Wisdom or worship a deity.


Also, being a total noob, when I summon a monster like say, a Cornugon through Greater Planar Ally or Gate, do I have a mental connection with the creature and can therefor tell it how to use its abilities etc? Or does it wing combat and do what it likes, always been curious about that. Thanks!

Planar Ally specifies that you need to be able to communicate with the creature to bargain for services. Gate is ambiguous, but it doesn't say that you get a special mental link so I wouldn't assume that there is one.

To get around that, you might want to squeeze in a one-level dip into Mindbender, a PrC from Complete Arcane that gives you 100-ft telepathy at 1st level. Not only does that resolve any language barriers, but it also opens up access to Mindsight, an incredibly powerful feat from Lords of Madness that lets you detect the presence of any non-mindless creature within your telepathy range. Mindbender has a few social-skill prerequisites, but Factotum gives you enough spare skill points that you can easily meet them.

[SecretlyaFish]

You're welcome! I'll admit I already had the build stored away - I assembled it for a past game that never got off the ground. It is nice to pull it out again and take another look at it, though.

Factotum is a class from Dungeonscape. It's helpful here because it gets 6+Int skill points per level and has every skill as a class skill; Malconvoker and Fiendbinder both require skills that aren't on the Wizard list (Bluff and Truespeak). The Factotum also has a number of class features that use Inspiration, a resource pool with points determined by your Factotum class level that refills at the start of each encounter. Most of the Inspiration-based features are kinda meh, but at 8th level they get Cunning Surge, which lets you spend 3 Inspiration points to take an extra standard action during your turn. An 8th-level Factotum has 5 Inspiration points, and you can take the feat Font of Inspiration to bring that to 6. Two extra standard actions per combat is pretty great for a spellcaster, and I shouldn't have to explain why :smalltongue:

Fiendbinder is a prestige class from Tome of Magic. Its main feature is the ability to summon one or more evil outsiders from a short list and bind them into service by speaking their truename. Commanding them to do stuff is fairly action-intensive, but they make for nice guards and the number of fiends you can have bound is only limited by the GP you're willing to spend. The Truespeak DCs are pretty darn high, so it's not going to be terribly useful unless you can take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) - but if Item Familiar is allowed, you can have a nice posse of indefinitely-bound fiends.



Master Specialist is there because you're taking Spell Focus anyway and it gives you a bit more than sticking with Wizard would, so you might as well. Also, something that I just realized is that you'll probably want to swap the fifth level of Master Specialist with the first level of Thaumaturge and use the MS's 5th-level Expanded Spellbook to add Lesser Planar Ally to your spellbook. That way you can skip Arcane Disciple, which saves you a feat and means you don't need to put points into Wisdom or worship a deity.



Planar Ally specifies that you need to be able to communicate with the creature to bargain for services. Gate is ambiguous, but it doesn't say that you get a special mental link so I wouldn't assume that there is one.

To get around that, you might want to squeeze in a one-level dip into Mindbender, a PrC from Complete Arcane that gives you 100-ft telepathy at 1st level. Not only does that resolve any language barriers, but it also opens up access to Mindsight, an incredibly powerful feat from Lords of Madness that lets you detect the presence of any non-mindless creature within your telepathy range. Mindbender has a few social-skill prerequisites, but Factotum gives you enough spare skill points that you can easily meet them.

No worries man I'm always ecstatic when people take the time out of there day to give a noob some help! Ugh, unfortunately I just ran that by my DM and he gave me a big NO. He said he really thinks thats an incredible build but we have 2 new people who are picking fighters and he said he doesn't want me overshadowing their characters completely. He said my original Wizard/Cleric Gestalt character was fine but he doesn't want me going much further than that. He was fine up until I got to the part about 3 standard actions in a single round and he just no. Still, maybe in another campaign I will have to give that a try because holy cow the way you built that up is really cool.

I still might take that Mindbender class in my build though, I don't think he would have a problem with it, and obviously the ability to telepathically communicate with summoned minions would be invaluable. But I guess its not 100% needed as long as I give specific instructions and do a bit of research/perhaps converse with a particular fiend beforehand in order to learn its special abilities. Lets say I summon a Hamatula out of combat first in order to make greetings, learn its name etc, I can then ask it its abilities as they pertain to combat in order to better give it directions when I require its services.

So far this is what I have in my head for my class right now. I type wizard because its easier but I'll be a focused conjurer.

1 : Wizard 1/Cleric 1
2 : Wizard 2/Cleric 2
3 : Wizard 3/Cleric 3
4 : Master Specialist 1/Cleric 4
5 : Master Specialist 2/Cleric 5
6 : Master Specialist 3/Cleric 6
7 : Master Specialist 4/Cleric 7
8 : Thaumaturgist 1/Cleric 8
9 : Thaumaturgist 2/Cleric 9
10 : Thaumaturgist 3/Cleric 10
11 : Malconvoker 1/Cleric 11
From here on just levels of Malconvoker/Cleric

Not sure of what feats I would pick at what levels beyond first. I realize there is a specific way you can carefully arrange Malconvoker in order to not lose the level of spellcasting but I am unsure of how to do that. Is my build progression a bit off? Not sure when I should take Malconvoker/Master Specialist/Thaumaturgist. I guess I can throw a single level of mindbender in there just as a alternative, but I suppose if I roleplay properly I may not need it. Let me know what you think/what would you do different?

My DM also is allowing me to play a Malconvoker as an evil character, with the way it plays out being that the fiend might already not necessarily dislike serving me as much as it might a good or neutral character, especially since I'll be a cleric of one of the Arch Devils, probably Asmodeus, Baalzebuul, Glasya, or Mammon. Doesn't really matter between the 4. But obviously if I call them from that layer of Hell and they see I am a cleric of their Arch Devil they serve they might be more inclined to serve me. The trick comes when I try to use one of those abilities to trick them through wordplay etc to give me more of their service than bargained for, obviously being Lawful a Devil does not want to be indentured for longer than what was agreed and would not appreciate being manipulated.

Still, with being evil do you think the Devil is less likely to attack me on a failed attempt? Especially if that devil serves my god? In Malconvoker it says it goes hostile on failed attempts. Just wondering how to kinda tailor/RP the abilties to suit a evil character.

Oh mother of god... I did not realize it allows you to take 2 prestige classes at once... Wow.... I think my DM will throw a fit at that.... Maybe I'll just not tell him... Ugh. Hahaha. I thought you could only do 1 per level for some reason. As a good salesman I will do my best, but convincing him to let me play gestalt was already a hard sell. Doing the math, I can take 17 levels of Cleric, 9 of Malconvoker, 3 of Wizard, 5, of Thaumaturgist, 4 of Master Specialist and that would leave 2 left over.

Have you ever looked at the Disciple of - classes from the Book of Vile Darkness? I realize those are old 3.0 classes, but with a bit of work they could be put into 3.5 I think, would any of those be viable? On first look Disciple of Asmodeus seems to be the most attractive in terms of RP and character abilities but its a 10 level class and you lose the first level in casting just like the Malconvoker.

[Extra Anchovies]

2 new people who are picking fighters

Are they playing fighters because they want to, or was fighter suggested for them? If the latter, they were given bad advise - fighter is laughably bad without some fairly heavy optimization, and even then it's usually not worth taking past level 2, very rarely worth taking past level 6, and never worth taking past level 10. Barbarian and Ranger are both significantly better choices regardless of the available books.


and he said he doesn't want me overshadowing their characters completely

You're going to have a lot of trouble with that - properly applied summons are a more than viable stand-in for a melee presence, especially if that presence is two inexperienced Fighters. If you want to be a spellcaster and they both want to be fighters, you'll have to do something that doesn't deal hit point damage. Buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control are all better options, because they make the fighters' jobs easier.


I still might take that Mindbender class in my build though, I don't think he would have a problem with it, and obviously the ability to telepathically communicate with summoned minions would be invaluable. But I guess its not 100% needed as long as I give specific instructions and do a bit of research/perhaps converse with a particular fiend beforehand in order to learn its special abilities. Lets say I summon a Hamatula out of combat first in order to make greetings, learn its name etc, I can then ask it its abilities as they pertain to combat in order to better give it directions when I require its services.

You'll probably want max ranks in Knowledge (The Planes), because you'll be dealing with outsiders often and because it's required for most summoning-focused PrCs, so knowing your summons' capabilities shouldn't be much of an issue.


Still, with being evil do you think the Devil is less likely to attack me on a failed attempt? Especially if that devil serves my god? In Malconvoker it says it goes hostile on failed attempts. Just wondering how to kinda tailor/RP the abilties to suit a evil character.

Malconvoker is already a decent class, so there's no reason to make it stronger by removing the penalty for a failed Bluff check.


Oh mother of god... I did not realize it allows you to take 2 prestige classes at once... Wow.... I think my DM will throw a fit at that.... Maybe I'll just not tell him... Ugh. Hahaha. I thought you could only do 1 per level for some reason.

Actually, the gestalt rules in Unearthed Arcana don't allow for doubling up on prestige classes - you can combine a PrC and a base class, but can't do two PrCs. I've never played in a gestalt game where that was actually enforced, though, so I'd completely forgotten about it until I looked up the gestalt rules again just now. My bad.


As a good salesman I will do my best, but convincing him to let me play gestalt was already a hard sell.

Is the whole party gestalt, or just your character? You definitely shouldn't be the only gestalt character, unless you're picking two weak classes like Ninja//Monk.


Have you ever looked at the Disciple of - classes from the Book of Vile Darkness? I realize those are old 3.0 classes, but with a bit of work they could be put into 3.5 I think, would any of those be viable? On first look Disciple of Asmodeus seems to be the most attractive in terms of RP and character abilities but its a 10 level class and you lose the first level in casting just like the Malconvoker.

Disciple of Asmodeus actually doesn't lose casting until second level. It costs three feats to enter, two of which (Disciple of Darkness and Evil Brand) are Toughness-tier gutter trash. Leadership is disgustingly overpowered to the point that it's basically cheating, so I won't count it as a cost - you get more out of Leadership than you do out of ten levels of Disciple of Asmodeus. In exchange for those two feats, you get a 1/week Gather Information bonus and a 1/day Charm Person SLA. Charm Person is a 1st-level spell, and Gather Information is useless, so you'd be wasting two feat slots and getting pretty much screw-all in return. Skip it.

[SecretlyaFish]

Are they playing fighters because they want to, or was fighter suggested for them? If the latter, they were given bad advise - fighter is laughably bad without some fairly heavy optimization, and even then it's usually not worth taking past level 2, very rarely worth taking past level 6, and never worth taking past level 10. Barbarian and Ranger are both significantly better choices regardless of the available books.

They both picked fighters because they seemed the most simple to them. They are both pretty flaky though and can't really be relied upon to show up all that much.


You're going to have a lot of trouble with that - properly applied summons are a more than viable stand-in for a melee presence, especially if that presence is two inexperienced Fighters. If you want to be a spellcaster and they both want to be fighters, you'll have to do something that doesn't deal hit point damage. Buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control are all better options, because they make the fighters' jobs easier.

There is already a decent buffer, and honestly I'm pretty happy to sit back and hold off on some of my power.


You'll probably want max ranks in Knowledge (The Planes), because you'll be dealing with outsiders often and because it's required for most summoning-focused PrCs, so knowing your summons' capabilities shouldn't be much of an issue.

Alright fair enough, I'll make sure to run that by my DM.


Malconvoker is already a decent class, so there's no reason to make it stronger by removing the penalty for a failed Bluff check.

Agreed.


Actually, the gestalt rules in Unearthed Arcana don't allow for doubling up on prestige classes - you can combine a PrC and a base class, but can't do two PrCs. I've never played in a gestalt game where that was actually enforced, though, so I'd completely forgotten about it until I looked up the gestalt rules again just now. My bad.

I had no idea about that. Just got into the whole gestalt thing. Hmm, maybe he will allow me to take a level or 2 of prestige classes then in the same level, wouldn't need to be that much.


Is the whole party gestalt, or just your character? You definitely shouldn't be the only gestalt character, unless you're picking two weak classes like Ninja//Monk.

The whole party is not gestalt, but we had a problem in our last session of people flaking out and it ended up being only 3 people left after one of the friends who brought his own friends there, left because he could no longer show up due to work related schedule. Me and my brother, the DM and another are usually the only people who can be counted on so the Gestalt is there in case it goes sour, we can simply continue the campaign. Last time we all made characters we really liked and were so bummed when they left that we ended up just scrapping them. Don't want that to happen again and neither does the DM. The 2 fighters are pretty casual and won't care, and we can just hold back on our abilities. Our session is probably going to start in about a week or so, and its still not 100% those 2 are even going to show up so.

[Andezzar]

You can fit all of Malconvoker, Fiendbinder, and Thaumaturgist in one gestalt build without losing a caster level, it just requires some very careful arrangement.AFAIK you cannot have PrCs on both sides of the gestalt for any level. So the build is illegal.

[Pluto!]

It's a bad idea to play Gestalt on only one character in a campaign, especially if that character's player is getting internet forums to optimize his gestalt dual-caster while the rest of the group figures out how Fighters work.

[Andezzar]

It's a bad idea to play Gestalt on only one character in a campaign, especially if that character's player is getting internet forums to optimize his gestalt dual-caster while the rest of the group figures out how Fighters work.QFT

Even if the DM allows your gestalt character you shouldn't play it, if the other players make normal character with Tier 4-5 classes. Unless you hit yourself with the stupid stick, your character will overshadow the rest of the group. And that usually isn't fun for anyone.