Advice / Build for tank DnD 3.5

[tokyooo23]

All sources are allowed as long as they are WotC.

Was thinking of combining knight and crusader.

Any advice is appreciated, and presented builds are welcome. Need the build to come alive at lvl 10 or earlier, and stay viable till 20. (Yes I know it won't compare to Tier 1 or 2 classes in general)

2 flaws and 1 trait. 40 point buy.

Race: Lesser, Aasimar
Template: Half-Celestial

[Eloel]

Go straight crusader. There's nothing to be gained from Knight that you won't get the better from Crusader. Get Extra Granted Manuever, possibly Adaptive Style and go to town.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're probably going to want to choose one or the other.

Knight has one of the only aggro mechanics in 3.X and it's decent if you focus a little effort on it. Not great, mind, just decent. It is, however, entirely class dependent. You can't progress it outside of progressing in the knight class. If you go this way, you can still pick up a few maneuvers with the martial study feat and some crown of the white raven type items.

Crusader, on the other hand, is a beast in melee and, with appropriate choices, can lockdown the area around him like a bear trap.

In either case, you'll want to pick up combat reflexes, improved trip, and use a reach weapon. Stand still is also a very solid pick for a lockdown build. This is really basic stuff for any melee character that wants to act as a battlefield control type.

[tokyooo23]

I must admit that I haven't spent alot of time with the tome of battle and I don't think I truly understand how the crusader's maneuvers work in terms of availability. But what classes would you guys suggest besides the crusader or to mix with it. Prestige classes are desired here as well (not ruby knight vindicator)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I must admit that I haven't spent alot of time with the tome of battle and I don't think I truly understand how the crusader's maneuvers work in terms of availability. But what classes would you guys suggest besides the crusader or to mix with it. Prestige classes are desired here as well (not ruby knight vindicator)

If you want to stick to knight, you'll want to stick to knight. Like I said, you can't really get anything out of it you couldn't get elsewhere other than the knight's challenge ability and that is dependent on your knight level. A dip for something that's really got your eye is okay but you really don't want to sac' that many knight levels if you want to be able to draw aggro in the classic MMO tank fashion.

On the other hand, you could buid toward being a juggernaught; something that hits hard and can take a serious beating. There's a few different ways to handle that but we'll get to that if you express some interest.

[tokyooo23]

I was thinking 3 knight levels to make all threatened squares difficult terrain with a reach weapon of sorts. I'm completely for the idea of crusader I just simply don't know them well at the moment.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I was thinking 3 knight levels to make all threatened squares difficult terrain with a reach weapon of sorts. I'm completely for the idea of crusader I just simply don't know them well at the moment.

Oh, is that all? They're not that hard to get. What's giving you trouble?

[tokyooo23]

They seem to have a different mechanic for how their maneuvers become available during an encounter, and I don't feel I full understand that.

[Malroth]

Given the Lack of normal Aggro Mechanics I'd Go with Bard4/Crusader 16 or Bard 4/Crusader 6/Jade Phoenix Mage 10 And Use Song of the White Raven and Dragonfire Inspiration to provide some obvious Threat to the enemy so that there's a reason to choose you as the melee target

[Kelb_Panthera]

They seem to have a different mechanic for how their maneuvers become available during an encounter, and I don't feel I full understand that.

Gotcha. Let's see if I can phrase this well.

For the example we'll go with a 3rd level crusader.

As a 3rd level crusader, you know 6 maneuvers and can ready 5 of those at a time. This means you'll have to pick one maneuver, when you ready maneuvers, that you -cannot- use during any upcoming fights until you ready again. Readying maneuvers can be done anytime you have 5 minutes to spare on doing so.

When a fight breaks out, you're granted 2 of the maneuvers you have ready. These 2 are selected randomly and are available to use imediately on your first turn. On your second turn, you're granted a 3rd maneuver, selected randomly, and that maneuver is then available to use in combat. On your third and fourth turns, you are granted the remaining two readied maneuvers randomly just as on the second turn.

On the fifth turn of combat, when you would be granted another maneuver, you have none left that aren't already granted. Since this is the case, you instead lose access to your granted maneuvers, your expended maneuvers are refreshed, and you are then granted 2 at random again, putting your maneuvers back to the same state as in your first round of combat.

This whole process repeats over and over until combat ends.

Does that make sense?

[Eloel]

I was thinking 3 knight levels to make all threatened squares difficult terrain with a reach weapon of sorts. I'm completely for the idea of crusader I just simply don't know them well at the moment.

Thicket of Blades stance makes 5ft steps provoke AoO. That's sort of as good as making them difficult terrain.

[Hiro Quester]

Gotcha. Let's see if I can phrase this well.

For the example we'll go with a 3rd level crusader.

As a 3rd level crusader, you know 6 maneuvers and can ready 5 of those at a time. This means you'll have to pick one maneuver, when you ready maneuvers, that you -cannot- use during any upcoming fights until you ready again. Readying maneuvers can be done anytime you have 5 minutes to spare on doing so.

When a fight breaks out, you're granted 2 of the maneuvers you have ready. These 2 are selected randomly and are available to use imediately on your first turn. On your second turn, you're granted a 3rd maneuver, selected randomly, and that maneuver is then available to use in combat. On your third and fourth turns, you are granted the remaining two readied maneuvers randomly just as on the second turn.

On the fifth turn of combat, when you would be granted another maneuver, you have none left that aren't already granted. Since this is the case, you instead lose access to your granted maneuvers, your expended maneuvers are refreshed, and you are then granted 2 at random again, putting your maneuvers back to the same state as in your first round of combat.

This whole process repeats over and over until combat ends.

Does that make sense?

Many people have maneuver cards. You deal out 5 of the six cards face down, then turn over two in the first round, then one extra card each round Each round you choose between the two cards you have face up. and so on.

WOTC have files for making cards here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).

[LTwerewolf]

Thicket of Blades stance makes 5ft steps provoke AoO. That's sort of as good as making them difficult terrain.

Eating up half their move is also a good thing.

[RoyVG]

Thicket of Blades stance makes 5ft steps provoke AoO. That's sort of as good as making them difficult terrain.


Eating up half their move is also a good thing.

Why not both? :smalltongue: You deny them the ability to Tumble out of the AoO due to difficult terrain and recieve an AoO if they move. Note, that this is under the assumption that you can still use Tumble to prevent an AoO from Thicket of Blades. Technically Thicket of Blades overwrites the Tumble rules as it states 'any movement'

On the Crusader Recovery mechanic, it's ideal to use playing cards or something that can be shuffled or randomized. When I played a Crusader before, I used leftover UNO cards and I wrote the name of the maneuveron them. You could also assign each readied maneuver a number and roll a dice with equal sides as you have readied maneuvers. Online dice rollers allow you to do d5 or d7 rolls when needed.

Straight up Crusader would be the better option in my opinion, especially if you want to remain viable at 20th level. The Knight is not bad, but requires a little bit more work to be interesting and still lacks some options for other situations and simply falls of at later levels. The Crusader is a pretty solid tank and has some great abilities to work with it, such as granting shield bonuses to adjacent party members every now and then. Between early and mid levels you also become a potent damage dealer with maneuvers like the Mountain Hammer-line from Stone Dragon and Divine Surge, if you choose those. The Delayed Damage Pool can prove invaluable, making you extra durable and deal more damage in the process. If you want Knight, three levels is all you really need for the difficult terrain 'aura'.

Make sure you have a positive Dex modifier and take Combat Reflexes and Standstill feats. Bracers of Opportunity (MIC) as an early item gives you 2 extra AoO per day whenever you need them.

Do you want a shield? Yes, then Exotic Weapon proficiency is a must, for either a Kusari-gama or a Spinning Sword (Eberron Secrets of Sarlona) for a light or onehanded reach weapon respectively. If you don't want a shield, you can do with a Martial reach weapon (liek a Glaive) and Armor Spikes.

[tokyooo23]

Anyone know of another good way to make area around you difficult terrain? I am going crusader and I will be getting thicket of blades so no need to keep mentioning that. Just want to know if there is a feat or something out there to make terrain near you difficult terrain.

[Ruethgar]

The Delicious flaw could be good depending on what the DM constitutes as monsters.

[tokyooo23]

The Delicious flaw could be good depending on what the DM constitutes as monsters.

I don't think that would be acceptable if your referring to the flaws in DM 330. Those seem to be not only "Joke flaws" but it also states you must be a 1st level commoner to even take a flaw in that list.

[Immabozo]

I am going to throw out there a completely different build that I LOVE when I played it.

EDIT: something similar

Whirrling frenzy and spirit lion totem (for pounce) ACF of barbarian

Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/???/Bear Warrior 1/War Hulk 4/natures warrior 4

It's been a while, so my build might be slightly off

Dragon Mag or Savage Species are both legal per your allowed materials, I believe.

Half ogre and half minotaur templates from Dragon Mag are insane, or as an option, or on top of and totally bonkers, Anthropomorphic baleen whale.

+1 LA for both templates, +0 LA and + 3 RHD for the anthrophmorphic baleen whale

IIRC, +16 str, +8 con, +4 dex, +4 int, +6 wis, +4 cha, size large, +9 NA for the Anthropomarphic Baleen Whale

IIRC, +8 str, +4 con, -4 int, - 2 cha +4 NA, 1D8 gore attack, darkvision 60 ft, scent, giant's blood, with this little gem, if gaining a size category from this template, gain stats as in the monster manual, which is another +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, +2 NA

So for +1 LA and 3 RHD, you could have +24 str, +12 con, + 4 dex, +6 wis, +2 cha, +13 NA, size large, and some other benefits

Or for +1 LA, you could have +16 str, +8 con, -2 dex, -4 int, -2 cha, , +4 NA, size large and some other benefits.

IMHO, the RHD are strictly better than LA, assuming no LA buyoff, since you still gain HP, HD, feats, and all the other benefits of leveling, just not in a class.

Lets assume the whole tamale, on a 40 point buy that looks like this:
Str 44 (12, +24 template and racial, +8 warhulk)
Dex 20 (16, +4 template and racial)
Con 28 (16, +12 template and racial)
Int 16
Wis 14 (8, +6 template and racial)
Cha 16 (14, +2 template and racial)

Barbarian 1/warrior 1/??? (with 1 BAB)/warhulk 4 thats 11 levels for full benefit, so sue me.

Feats, power attack, leap attack, endurance, steadfast determination, knock back, combat reflexes, shock trooper

Reach 10', and you'll want the skillful weapon enchant to count as 3/4 BAB

each attack hits 3 squares, after each attack, you can (if you want to) get a free bullrush on those hit (you stay still, does not provoke AoO) with a full PA at +16 THF and +8 leap attack, +17 str and +4 size, getting a +45 to your bullrush, using shock trooper's lesser used ability to guide your bullrush targets where you want them to go, and then when they come running back, having reach, triggers one of your 5 AoO, to do it again, with each attack hitting 3 squares, you could let one in, if the number of enemies is great, and then get a 2 or 3 for 1 AoO and, again, send them flying. Maybe guide them into each other, for a free trip attempt on each. Or send one guy into another for a free trip attempt on each, and then, since that doesn't stop the first from how far he goes flying on the bull rush, you can guide him into another 1 or 2 (or more, if you have the distance) and trip EVERYBODY! Maybe you can talk your DM into letting you take dungeoncrasher fighter and count each target as a hard enough target to trigger the extra damage!

And then Nature's Warrior, if you can figure out the pre-reqs (hint, Bear Warrior) and get another 5 feet reach, +4 str and con and immunity to crits

EDIT: If your squishies you want to protect stand inside your reach, behind you, you will protect them like a mother eagle, nestled under your glorious, protecting wings

[tokyooo23]

Dragon Mag or Savage Species are both legal per your allowed materials, I believe.

Half ogre and half minotaur templates from Dragon Mag are insane, or as an option, or on top of and totally bonkers, Anthropomorphic baleen whale.

+1 LA for both templates, +0 LA and + 3 RHD for the anthrophmorphic baleen whale

IIRC, +16 str, +8 con, +4 dex, +4 int, +6 wis, +4 cha, size large, +9 NA for the Anthropomarphic Baleen Whale

IIRC, +8 str, +4 con, -4 int, - 2 cha +4 NA, 1D8 gore attack, darkvision 60 ft, scent, giant's blood, with this little gem, if gaining a size category from this template, gain stats as in the monster manual, which is another +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, +2 NA

So for +1 LA and 3 RHD, you could have +24 str, +12 con, + 4 dex, +6 wis, +2 cha, +13 NA, size large, and some other benefits

Or for +1 LA, you could have +16 str, +8 con, -2 dex, -4 int, -2 cha, , +4 NA, size large and some other benefits.


I thank you for your reply. I know those exist and believe me they would be so welcome stat wise. However this is a fluff character and the templates and race are set in stone (child of a character). Templates that can be applied after birth are not off of the table, i am considering dragon born of bahamut since one of the parents is a platinum knight.

I am looking to make this character a kind of noble protector, so that's why fluff wise i was attracted to knight and crusader somewhat. It will be good aligned and I'm leaning towards lawful but neutral good would work as well.

[LTwerewolf]

If pathfinder material is available, knight 3+warder is pretty great.

[Maxrim]

Some possible builds:

Crusader 20

Is entirely viable, and not a terrible idea. It is a little boring though, so here are some less crusader focused builds:

Knight 3/Crusader 2/Fighter (Bodyguard Variant, Dragon 310, page 33) 1/Knight +3/Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom 4/Crusader +2/Knight Protector +3/Crusader +2

Taking Combat Expertise, you use it with the Clear the Path option from the Bodyguard variant to grab Cleave and Great Cleave, qualifying for Knight Protector (And later, Legendary Dreadnought perhaps?), and prepping for that sweet, sweet Supreme Cleave. You spread the Crusader levels out, to benefit from other classes advancing Initiator Level. At level 20, you leave yourself with an initiator level of 13, so 7th level maneuvers. You also take the time to grab Shield Ally, Test of Mettle, Bulwark of Defense, etc. Take leadership or have a party member with LA to have someone to defend, and basically always get +4 to hit and damage from Defensive Blow.

Knight 3/Paladin 2/Crusader 6/Paladin +2/Crusader +7

If your GM enforces multiclassing penalties for Paladins, take the other 2 Paladin levels before going crusader. Divine Grace doesn't stack with Indomitable Soul, but surprise surprise, it's better. With this build you want to take Extra Smiting for the Crusader smites, maybe get something along the lines of a Mighty Smiting weapon, and take Awesome Smite. Awesome Smite is absolutely incredible at low levels for when your opponents won't be able to free stand after a trip, and absolutely incredible at high levels when the casters that you really need to stop having alive have 3 instances of 50% miss chance. At level 20, you've got an initiator level of 16.

Knight 3/Hexblade 3/Crusader 4/Hexblade +2/Devoted Defender 3/Knight +3/Crusader +2

IL 13, Cha to fort and ref, twice Cha to will. Shield Ally, a familiar with a base attack bonus of +20. You can use a Vexing Weapon, from Dragon 339, they're wonderful, at the beginning of your round, you decide, much like with a Defending weapon, how much of the enhancement bonus to allocate to enhancement bonus, and how much you want to allocate to Vexing. You then make a free touch attack, if you hit, they suffer the amount allocated to Vexing as a penalty to hit, skill and ability checks, and AC. The familiar from Hexblade gives the Alertness prereq for Devoted Defender.

Knight 6/Fighter (Bodyguard Variant, Dragon 310, page 33) 1/Devoted Defender 3/Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom 10

No initiating, this build is all about defending an ally. Shield Ally, Deflect Attack to negate one attack per round, Harm's Way and Shield Ally to take the remainder on yourself or split between yourself and the ally. The Devoted Defender's Defensive Strike is brutal with a lot of AoOs, deflect their attack, hit them for it, shield ally against their attack, hit them for it, harm's way to switch places, that's three AoOs whenever they try to make three or more attacks against your ally.

[Immabozo]

I thank you for your reply. I know those exist and believe me they would be so welcome stat wise. However this is a fluff character and the templates and race are set in stone (child of a character). Templates that can be applied after birth are not off of the table, i am considering dragon born of bahamut since one of the parents is a platinum knight.

I am looking to make this character a kind of noble protector, so that's why fluff wise i was attracted to knight and crusader somewhat. It will be good aligned and I'm leaning towards lawful but neutral good would work as well.

The feats + a reach weapon, or an acquired template that gives large, or a wildshaping druid, or a psychic warrior to gain size categories, could still make the build possible.

But whatever you decide, good luck with it and I thank you for the trip down memory lane