Battle of the avatars

[thorgrim29]

So is anyone exited about the new avatar movie? Wonder how they'll top..... Nope, can't do this with a straight face.

This is a Last Airbender vs Korra thread. I've started rewatching Korra (I've seen most of it only once, and TLA between 2 and 3 times depending on the episode) and I was wondering what criteria we might be able to use to determine once and for all (yeah right) which is the best show. So spoilers obviously but I don't think we need to bother with tags unless talking about recent comics (which I have not read).

I will propose 6 criteria loosely inspired by the Nostalgia Critic, winner takes all.

Hero, villains, supporting cast, story, and, because these are long running animated series, plot "tightness" and overall quality.

Here are my thoughts:

Heroes: Season 1/2 Aang is a fine character for what he need to be. A way for the viewers to explore this weird world and a window on what was destroyed when the Fire Nation attacked. But there's not much to him, he's a kid who is conflicted between not wanting to grow up and realizing his duty and that's pretty much his arc. In season 3 he's more determined and less conflicted and really growing into his role.

And then there's Korra. In seasons 1 and 2 she's gifted but, like many gifted teens, almost unable to cope with things that don't come easy at first. Aggressive, headstrong, sheltered and a bit silly but also brave, caring and loyal to a fault. Her arc in the first 2 seasons is mainly about accepting and therefore overcoming her limitations. In season 3 she's forced to define for herself what she is and is at the end left beaten, broken and scarred. In season 4 she confronts her demons (almost literally), finally becomes comfortable with herself and makes peace with what the world needs from her.

Overall I like both but I think Korra is the better protagonist. She feels more real and relatable than Aang, at least to me, and I think her development is more compelling.

Villains

TLA has the advantage here of having an overarching enemy. They can always depend on Fire Nation stormtroopers and a cookie-cutter commander to pick up the slack if they need a villain. The evolution of Zuko is one of the best redemption stories out there IMO but as a villain he wasn't all that great. He was basically just a persistent petulant guy who kept following the heroes. Zhao is alright... nothing much to say about him. Azula is a genuinely good (you know what I mean) villain. She's smart, strong, manipulative, and scary as all hell, and her rapid descent into madness in season 3 makes perfect sense. Ozai isn't all that compelling. Mark Hamill had fun with him and all but he's not much of a character.

Korra basically has 6 villains, Amon, Tarlock, Unalaq, Vaatu, Zaheer&co and Kuvira. Amon, Zaheer and Kuvira are interesting because they combine a metaphor about a political ideology and a dark reflexion of a part of Korra's personality. They force her to reexamine her preconceptions and adjust her worldview (even though Amon was a giant hypocrite). Unalaq... not so much. He's a nationalist theocrat so that fits in with the theme, but other than that... And Tarlock is basically corrupt authoritarian politician #102 with an interesting family.

I like the theme but shorter seasons and the necessity to change things around means less compelling villains so... Advantage TLA

Supporting cast

TLA has a more coherent supporting cast. Apart from Toph all the important characters are introduced in season 1 so that gives us more time with them. I like Sokka as the voice of reason (unless he's firmly grasping the idiot ball), Toph is great, Iroh is delightful, Zuko I talked about a bit higher, and Katara is.... ok. There's a good character in there but she's hampered by having to be the chick and the designated love interest. The bit players tend towards being good too.

Korra is more uneven. It tries to have reasonable adults, goofy kids and young protagonists and it sometimes gets cluttered. It's a bit jarring to switch from spending time with the Beifong family drama and badassness to fartbending for example. But there's a lot of good stuff in there too. Bolin is the naturally cheerfull guy who has to learn to take things seriously, Mako (once romance is removed from the equation) is the reasonable guy who has to balance his desire for the quiet life with protecting those he loves and doing the right thing. Asami is the privileged girl who has to choose between comfort and family and what's right, and later has to struggle with the responsibility her wealth gives her. Tenzin is still dragging his younger brother trauma around and has to get over that while at the same time wrestling with the awesome responsibility of being the father of a new nation and facing the fact that he's been deifying his dad. Lin is bubbling rage under iron control, Jenora has to grow up too fast and Varrick has to learn to face consequences for his actions.

Overall.... I think this one is a tie.


Story

TLA's story is pretty coherent. It follows the same framework from beginning to end and doesn't really have low points outside of filler

Korra's story is all over the place, probably because the creators were being jerked around by the network so much. Also season 2, nuff' said.

I don't have as much to say about that as the other categories, but advantage TLA.

Plot tightness

This is basically about filler episodes and plot holes. I won't bother doing the side by side. TLA has a lot of awful filler episodes (and 2 great ones, Tales of Ba Sing Se and Ember Island Players) and sometimes the plot seems to go nowhere. Korra, by virtue of having shorter seasons and not needing to do happy episodes for the kids to get a breather does not have much if any filler. I'd say that overall TLA has higher high points, but it sure as hell has lower low points.

Advantage Korra

Overall quality

Both series have pretty similarly good voice acting and casting. Zuko had a few terrible moments but that always seemed a bit intentional, likewise Kuvira sounded robotic at times but that may have been the point.

Korra definitely has better animation and fight choreography, but outside of the big set-piece fights the bending is a bit less impressive.

Like I mentioned in the previous point, I feel that Korra had more even episode quality whereas TLA had great and awful episodes.

Narrow advantage Korra


So that's a narrow win for Korra on my part. I may change my mind as I rewatch the whole thing (still at the beginning of season 1).

What do you guys think of my methods and conclusion? Let's have a good old fashioned geek debate here. Also I'm pretty certain it won't turn political so bonus (pleased don't prove me wrong on that).

[An Enemy Spy]

In the case of a fight between the two, Korra would win by default since her existence requires Aang being, y'know, dead.

I love both of these shows and have watched them both many many times over, and I would say that Korra is a more compelling main character than Aang, but TLA has a much better supporting cast and it's epic plot is more interesting than Korra's episodic seasons. TLA has a better story and LOK has better action. Overall, the only true winner is the audience.

[Malak'ai]

I loved TLA, watched the whole thing 4 times, but I could only just force myself to watch the first 1.5 seasons.

As to that, I just couldn't get into LoK, but these are my thoughts on what I did see of it.
I found Korra to be the "typical gifted child", and not a very good one at that. The episodes seemed to either drag or were too disjointed for my liking. The supporting cast were your usual tropes (broody guy with the tragic past and love/hate relationship with the main character, over the top moron/comic relief etc). As I said, I didn't get far enough to really comment on the story. And I had no idea what the villain's were up to half the time.

I'm glad others enjoyed it, but I just couldn't.

[Reddish Mage]

I think you are forgetting important categories like Music (I like Korra's but there is not enough), Art (Korra is better but is uneven after they cut the budget in Season 2), and Animation (I actually think ATLA has the better choreography and elaborate fight animation.

On story I think the question is not about filler, it's about the story arc itself or themselves, and ATLA is stronger in being disciplined and doing the traditional 4 act structure with aplomb (Act 4 is the last 5 minutes of the movie). Korra sort of seems to be searching to find itself and the way it ends it doesn't really resolve anything grand, or answer the questions it poses.

I really don't get where you are on the supporting cast and the heroes though. Aang and the GAang are awesome all the way, and each one's unique. It's was pointed out above that Korra's supporting cast is a bunch of stock archetypes, but Korra herself is someone I find simply seems to NOT fit the unique Avatar mold.

Korra is a fighter, she lacks a centered of easygoing aspect of her personality, struggles with spirituality, she doesn't let go easily and she's quick to anger. Most of her villains are more connected to the spirit world (and draw more power from it!) than she is! For a water tribe gal, fire is her go-to element. She has to undergo multiple traumamatic experiences at once to learn to airbend and to get knocked out cold to learn to connect to her past lives.

Aang is good humored, good natured, and more easily spiritual than most monks. Aang defines what it means to be spiritual and to be an Avatar (or at least becoming one) for us watching ATLA. Korra's the anti-Avatar! She's gifted at the physical fighting and nothing else about being the Avatar (including having a weaker Avatar state), and that's a problem because all her villains are better at fighting than she is!

Aang is a stronger Avatar, he is stronger at being the Avatar, and has stronger friends with unique personalities and backgrounds.

Over all Korra has solid points to the show and the person, but Aang sweeps the floor with Korra and her show.

[SuperPanda]

Okay, lets see where my thoughts were: (Spoilers are for length mostly since I doubt anyone in this thread is worried about spoliers in general.)

Heroes

The Last Airbender is really a about a team of heroes. Sure, Aang gets title billing and plot focus but the story is very much about all of them, together, saving the world. The show even goes so far as to call them Team Avatar.

Aang: Aang is one of many characters in this show going through an archetypal comming of age narrative. His child-like innocence is harshly tested against the brutal "grown up" world he's thrown into. Aang's ultimate triumph is in salvaging his idealism and ideals in the face of that transition - in becoming a mature and responsible adult without abandoning his culture and morals. - Contrast with Korra

Katara: In some ways Katara's growth goes opposite Aangs, making her a mirror of his character. She begins having had the "innocent child" part of her personality violently purged from her and having embraced the maturity of an adult. Her central theme of hope comes from that conflict as she is hopeful that it is possible to hold on to her "innocence" even as she's already had to grow up so much. Aang comes to represent that for her (which is why she doesn't return or even seem to notice his romantic overtures until well into Season 3) - he represents "childhood" to her until then. As he triumphs in retaining his moral center, playfulness, and sense of self in his transition Katara's triumph is the rediscovery of those aspects in herself. They end the series both having grown into mature and capable persons who have embraced the best of their child and adult selves. - Contrast with Tenzin.

Sokka: Sokka is a weird character to look at in Last Airbender. Sometimes he's the moronic comic relief. Sometimes he's the universe's personal punching bag. Sometimes he's a genius - often at the same time as being the moronic comic relief. He's right alot more often than anyone gives him credit for. At the start of the story Sokka is immature in all the worst possible ways. He's smug, selfish, rude, and pretty much useless. His growth as a character takes him from the single most punchable character to a major inventor, military leader, war hero, and political leader. Where at the start of the story he's upset with benders because they can do stuff that he can't, by season 3 he is upset with himself because he can't pull his weight like they can. Its also worth noting that in the final battle it is Sokka, not Aang or Toph, who is responsible for bringing down the enemy invasion force. True he uses Toph's powers to do it - but he directs her and comes up with the plan. -Contrast with Bolin

Toph: Toph is hilarious - but she's also pretty single note. The major thing that makes her fun is the irony of having a "cute little girl" who wants to be seen as the "big muscly tough guy." The character's blindness leads to interesting moments in the story and an interesting ability set. The small moments revealing her insecurity under that big strong exterior are beautiful but don't ever get followed through on in the plot. -Contrast with Mako

Zuko: Zuko wasn't really ever a villain, and from early in the story we knew that. He was an antagonist and his brooding was certainly frustrating - but he had the traits and aspects of a hero through most of Seasons 1 and 2, just a hero on the wrong side of history. He tried the villain thing and it didn't work out for him.

Zuko's arc is very similar to Katara's and Aangs in that he's trying to find a balance between what is expected of him and who he is. Unlike the former two however Zuko's conflict does not come from his inner child and morals being compared to the harsh realities of adult life, his conflict comes from not knowing who he is. While Katara had her sense of innocense stripped from her she did not loose her sense of self in the process. Zuko did. When our story opens its hard to see the prince the way Iroh describes him to the crew, and its clear that Zuko is actively ashamed of who he is. Finding the strength to be himself is a large part of what makes his story such a great Redemption story.

-Contrast with... actually I can't think of Anyone in Korra who Zuko is a good contrast with. Lets say, Asami?

Appa: Appa is very much one note - the loveable furry companion. -Contrast with Nagga



Korra: As the story starts Korra is proud to the point of arrogance and always has been, much like Sokka was before with the exception that she can actually back up her boasts. She's aware of her deficits in spirituality, introspection, and the "internal" aspects of her growth and there is plenty of evidence that she would be happy to run away from those things. The strength of Korra as a protagonist in her series is that these very things form the back-bone of her plots.

By the series end Korra has grown reflective on her actions and more careful about rash actions. She's grown to question her own prejudice and see the world from new perspectives. It is fortunate that these insights give her new ways to punch things in the face because thats the part she loves. Korra finds a moral center and grounding by the end of her series that she sorely lacked at the start. While Last Aribender was very much about responsibility to the self, Korra is about responsibility itself. Her lesson ins't learning to be herself while also being The Avatar, its about learning how to let go of herself enough to be The Avatar.

Tenzin: A character whose person arc can't possibly be about growing up because he's already in his 50s with three kids... right? Nope. Tenzin is basically on the same arc Katara was on in Last Airbender only it plays out very differently because he's a mentor figure. He failed to learn what Katara did and subsumed himself completely to his responsibilities and is now having to learn to let go of all the anger and frustration he's piled on for those many years. While equally representing what Korra is suppose to become and afraid of becoming, Tenzin is really representing the other extreme of the balance. As Korra grows into a mature Avatar, Tenzin becomes a more well adjusted person.

Bolin: Comparing Bolin to Sokka is too easy. Goofy humor - Check. Really stupid ideas - Check. Food jokes - Check. Funny interactions with animals - Check. multiple love stories -Check. Hidden talent that marks him as a genius - Check. He's even the goofy brother to the "mature" young character. The problem is - those all fail to come together for Bolin the way they did for Sokka (there is little to no growth).

Bolin is good in a fight but definitely not a leader. He frequently finds himself on the wrong side of things through good natured mistakes (Season 1, wants to help raise money - does Mob work. Season 4 - Wants to help stabalize kingdom, works for facists). Are they both understandable mistakes given his past and circumstances - Yes. Are they both stupid mistakes given the context - Yes. He should know better than to do mob work, and should talk to his team about it first. His girlfriend (and team) were clearly angry with him about working with "team evil" of season 4 even before he had reason to believe they were "team evil" and he ignored that. Bolin's growth from self-absorbed guy who wants to fit in is towards slightly less self-absorbed guy who wants to fit in.

Mako: Mako starts as the serious one who can't relax, and stays the serious one who can't relax. These is a nice part of him growing through figuring out his relationship with Korra wasn't good for either of them, but that is more Korra's growth than his.

Asami: Asami's arc in season 1 is Zuko's Arch from the entire series before hand. Throw in some love triangle stuff and we've now covered most of Season 1. Her growth into accepting who she is, where she's from is worth exploring - but she never gets enough focus to do that. We're told she transitions from spoiled rich girl to mature and capable CEO - but again little is done to show this. It isn't fair to compare Asami's role in the story to Zuko's because she was never an antagonist and she's very much a background character.

Nagga: Nagga is very much a puppy and is totally awesome - plot wise she's an Appa who can't fly and much less often guilty of Deus ex Buffalo.


I agree with the OP that Korra feels like the more believable character because her arc is one we've seen many times before. She's the classic "Holden Caufield" whose going to grow into a mature and responsible person.
Aang is idealistic specifically because his arc is about holding on to our ideals and morals in the face of challenges.

I think both are done very well. What Korra does has been done many times before in many genres and in many ways - this doesn't make it any more or less good. What Aang does is more representative of Epics and Legends like Rama from the Ramayana or King Arthur.

Looking at the other heroes' character arcs I found Last Airbender superior in that there was thematic cohesion in the character arcs and more growth across the cast.

Villains: Without going into nearly as much detail:

Korra Season 1, 3, and 4 had good villains. Amon was "ruined" by the reveal because the shorter format didn't leave time to build and arc around him, his movement, Korra, and everything else. Amon might have been a better "series ender" than Kuvira was because of how much they could have done with him. Best potential villain.
Korra Season 2's villain was a literal incarnation of evil at a point where Korra herself had yet to "prove" herself as an incarnation of good. (Season 3) Aang vs. Vatu could have been interesting because by that point Aang was the ideal personified - but even Aang in season 1 would have felt forced against Vatu.

In contrast, Ozai was about as complex as Unaloq only he was presented as a credible threat to the Avatar the whole way in. Azula was the evil prodigy much as Zaheer was and her collapse was very satisfying (unlike Amons).

Korra did better at making the villains "personal" to the hero. Airbender did better at making the villain serve as a plot point in the character's arc. The story wasn't ever really about whether or not Aang would defeat Ozai - we knew from the first episode that he would because of what type of show it was - the question was always how Aang would do so while staying true to himself.

Story:
Theme wise they are completely different monsters. Format wise they are completely different monsters.
Airbender was about exploration, wonder, idealism, hope, and a celebration of innocence as a part of a mature adult.
Korra was about conflict, about abandoning childish things and becoming an adult.

Airbender was one story with "filler" elements as part of its focus on "Exploration, wonder, and the celebration of innocence"
Korra was 4 different stories with at least a cause-effect relationship between Season 2, 3 and 4.

I enjoyed both quite a bit, but If I wanted to pretend that they were similar enough for a fair comparison and that "objectivity" was possible - I'd have to say Airbender was the better told story. It was more coherent, more cohesive, and used its time better. Even much loathed episodes like "The Great Divide" connect back to its central ideas and motifs.

[Malak'ai]

Appa: Appa is very much one note - the loveable furry companion. -Contrast with Nagga

You forgot Momo... How dare you forget the awesomness that is Momo, Mortal God of the Flying Squirel-Monkies! :smalltongue: :smalltongue:


I want a Momo :-( .

[thorgrim29]

Well I had forgotten how bad season 2 and the first half of season 3 of Korra are.... There's a lot of good stuff in there (Avatar Wan, Aubrey Plaza, Varrick, Old Zuko, , Spirit Iroh, the Spirit world, the Red Lotus interactions, Bumi shedding his overcompensation, etc...) but a lot of it is painful and it's all disjointed.

It picks up really fast once they get to Zaofu though. I like how they snuck in almost Nietzchean/objectivist themes in the series too. Sue is someone who rejected society's mores, did her own thing for a while then built her own society where she expresses herself mainly through art and encourages everyone to follow their own path (though she fails where it comes to her daughter). The Beifong sisters are probably my favourite characters outside of the main 4, and actually Lin might be a better character than Mako (and she's awesome enough in season 1 to redeem not doing anything in 2).

Also I still like Bolin and Asami a lot, but I've soured on Mako a bit. He's the voice of reason a lot sure, but there's not much else to him in seasons 2 and 3. At least in season 1 he had the protective big brother thing going for him.

Finally... The probending is fine. It worked as a framing to explore Republic City in season 1, gave us a measure of the characters, and allowed them to show off the new bending styles. I'm not sure why people were dumping on it.

[Reddish Mage]

You forgot Momo... How dare you forget the awesomness that is Momo, Mortal God of the Flying Squirel-Monkies! :smalltongue: :smalltongue:


I want a Momo :-( .

Me and my Naga doll (my girlfriend decided it's a he and his name is Saki) are happy enough, but lately I've been feeling a Momo-shaped whole in my life.

[SuperPanda]

You forgot Momo... How dare you forget the awesomness that is Momo, Mortal God of the Flying Squirel-Monkies! :smalltongue: :smalltongue:


I want a Momo :-( .

To be fair, I also forgot Pabu who I love everybit as much as Momo - I just couldn't remember them doing much beyond being fun parts of the show to be counted as "heroes" instead of "supporting cast."

[Sapphire Guard]

I loved season one of Korra, but it never quite got back to that quality. The team dynamic fractured in Season 2 and they didn't fully gel together again, because the plots branched out and everyone was doing different things and growing apart.

Individual heroes goes to Korra, but as a team bouncing off each other, TLA.

Villains: Amon was brilliant, Unalaq less so, Zaheer and Kuvira needed more time to get to know them.

Supporting characters: Tie.

Story: TLA progresses more naturally overall. Season by season might be different.

Plot tightness: Korra, things that happened were generally relevant.

Overall quality: Hard to say, depends on what you're looking for.

Neither show could do romance well, but that's not in your criteria.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Finally... The probending is fine. It worked as a framing to explore Republic City in season 1, gave us a measure of the characters, and allowed them to show off the new bending styles. I'm not sure why people were dumping on it.

Because for the amount of time they spent on it, it wasn't relevant enough to the actual story. Amon and his idealogy was rushed? Well why didn't they cut back on probending?

[Reddish Mage]

Because for the amount of time they spent on it, it wasn't relevant enough to the actual story. Amon and his idealogy was rushed? Well why didn't they cut back on probending?

Given the targeted demographic of the channel and timeslot...I'm amazed they got away with as much of the mature politics as they did on the show including showing the Queen getting killed and then the riots after in season 3...not to mention ending things with Korrasami.

The probending was the thing they always highlighted in advertisements and they go back to it in the video game and recap. It's the sort of harmless formulaic sport fun that networks think is appropriate and will appeal to kids.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah I agree the civil war part was rushed (how did they go from having 50 or so ninjas to an army in a month?) and no probending would have freed a bit of time. But I think that on the other hand it's a window to Republic city culture.

Almost finished with the series now. Really enjoyed the end of season 3 and Korra's recovery. They really went all out with the fight scenes at the end of 3, they were fantastic, especially Tenzin vs Zaheer and Bending Bros vs Min Hua and Gazaan.

Old Toph was a bit overblown, and Kuvira is a tad too obviously evil (having the viewers unsure she's really a bad guy for the first third or so of the season would have been fun), and the colossus is just dumb, but overall good stuff. I tried to spot where they started to lay the groundwork for Korrasami in season 3 but I couldn't find anything. Slightly dissapointed in that.

[Talakeal]

Am I the only one who saw the thread title and is now dissapointed that it isn't about benders fighting blue cat people?

[thorgrim29]

We can make it so, it's not getting a lot of traffic as it is and having a thread I started reach 50 pages would be a big ego boost :smallbiggrin:

Let's say the mechasuits are roughly as strong as the suited up marines in Avatar (they are tankier, absurdly nimble and have a lot of flashy weapons but as pointed out by Stargate SG1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjlCVW_ouL8) sending a lot of lead downrange accurately beats flashy any day of the week so let's call it a draw). Average benders have a lot of trouble against them but elites slap them around like unruly children. Similarly the Avatar marines are able to control large numbers of blue catpeople with a small force but they have trouble against dedicated warriors and they can get overwhelmed fairly fast.

Both are remarkably tough and crazily agile, the benders can bring more boom to the table but the catpeople have a range advantage and a psychic bond with crazy animals... All in all I'd say the benders take it but by very little.


To expend on my point in my last post about Kuvira's obviousness. I just watched a thing on the battle of Waterloo (which BTW is a great candidate for the Great Men history side of that debate, that battle was only possible because Napoleon Bonparte and Arthur Wellesley were alive at the same time and on opposing sides.... Hell, allied those two could have conquered the world, maybe with Nelson to handle the Navy) and it occurred to me that, handled differently (and with more time than they had to be fair), Kuvira could have been a very tragic figure. She could have started out as a Napoleon-like figure, a populist genius military leader, creating stability and pride out of chaos, beloved beyond all reason by her people but hated and feared by everyone else. Then, as the war dragged on and on she could have degraded into the Hitler expy she became, slowly crossing line after line, the desertion of her more idealistic followers only deepening her resolve to carry on. That story is in there somewhere, maybe potentially in a comic series following Kuvira's perspective from the moment she left Zaofu to her declaration that the Earth Empire was a thing. I would read the hell out of that.