Carry Capacities

[PallentisLunam]

So I was playing Hoard of the Dragon Queen last night with my friends (I am the DM) and we are still in the first chapter where Greenest is under siege.

The party decided to split up to manage the defense of the castle and rescue townsfolk from the church.

Well on the way back the players rescuing the townspeople got spotted and they had to hold off waves of kobolds, cultists, and drakes while panicked civilians filed into the secret tunnel. Having broken the lock on their way out the players now needed a new way to secure the secret tunnel. So the party wizard, a halfling with an 8 for a strength score decided to throw the biggest box she could lift in front of the door.

This was when we discovered that she could lift 120 pounds! Does anyone else think the carry rules in 5E need some tweaking?

[Demonic Spoon]

For one, being able to lift something and being able to throw something aren't the same thing. Also, were you factoring in the weight of the halfling's equipment that they were presumably still carrying?

[Lines]

So I was playing Hoard of the Dragon Queen last night with my friends (I am the DM) and we are still in the first chapter where Greenest is under siege.

The party decided to split up to manage the defense of the castle and rescue townsfolk from the church.

Well on the way back the players rescuing the townspeople got spotted and they had to hold off waves of kobolds, cultists, and drakes while panicked civilians filed into the secret tunnel. Having broken the lock on their way out the players now needed a new way to secure the secret tunnel. So the party wizard, a halfling with an 8 for a strength score decided to throw the biggest box she could lift in front of the door.

This was when we discovered that she could lift 120 pounds! Does anyone else think the carry rules in 5E need some tweaking?

Just port the rules from 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm), they fit right in without having to make any other adjustments.

[PallentisLunam]

For one, being able to lift something and being able to throw something aren't the same thing. Also, were you factoring in the weight of the halfling's equipment that they were presumably still carrying?

Throw was me being idiomatic. I meant pick up, carry over, and place.

And no I guess we didn't but she is a wizard so it's not like she's got even 20 pounds of gear.

[Ninja_Prawn]

The rules are ridiculously generous, but you run into all sorts of problems if you try to cut down the allowance.

[PallentisLunam]

How do you mean?

[Spectre9000]

The rules are ridiculously generous, but you run into all sorts of problems if you try to cut down the allowance.

You mean like in real life? :P

Somehow I feel the size and weight of an individual should factor into how much a person can hold at any given moment, but then we're just being simulationist, which 5e is most certainly not.

Do what feels right to you and your party. The rules are generous as Ninja said, but if you want a tighter system just figure out for yourself and your party what feels right for that halfing wizard to carry, and go with that from then on. If you're gonna be that specific though, be prepared for "I put my back up against it and push it to the door, which should allow me to move it, even if I can't carry it" and other bends of the rules.

[Joe the Rat]

The other wrinkle being that small creatures become hella strong. Carry capacity goes down for tiny, but even then, you still run into the pseudodragon jet pack halfling problem.

The variant encumbrance cuts down on your crazy carry shenanigans, but doesn't help on that peak weight. You could pull the 3/4 carry capacity for Small creatures, but then you need to downscale the armor weight.

Downscaling armor weight might not be a bad idea in general.

[Finieous]

The average man can squat 125 lbs., bench 135 lbs. and deadlift 155 lbs. Since Str 8 is only slightly below average, and the game abstracts away from gender and racial size differences (except where otherwise noted), this seems to be working as intended.

[Giant2005]

The rules are ridiculously generous, but you run into all sorts of problems if you try to cut down the allowance.

The rules aren't really that generous.
My character has their starting gear with their armor upgraded to splint, a total of 288 coins, a Herbalism Kit, a Block and Tackle, a Crowbar, a Magnifying Glass, and a Spellbook. All of that comes to a whopping 175.76 lbs.
The carry weight might seem like a lot, but it doesn't go very far. Unless you get it to the extreme by being a level 6 Bear Totem Barb, or a Goliath, it is unlikely that a character is even going to be strong enough to carry another fully-geared character while carrying gear of their own.

[PallentisLunam]

The rules aren't really that generous.
My character has their starting gear with their armor upgraded to splint, a total of 288 coins, a Herbalism Kit, a Block and Tackle, a Crowbar, a Magnifying Glass, and a Spellbook. All of that comes to a whopping 175.76 lbs.
The carry weight might seem like a lot, but it doesn't go very far. Unless you get it to the extreme by being a level 6 Bear Totem Barb, or a Goliath, it is unlikely that a character is even going to be strong enough to carry another fully-geared character while carrying gear of their own.

How often does that actually come up outside of OOTSverse?

[Ninja_Prawn]

How often does that actually come up outside of OOTSverse?

I actually had a fighter in heavy armour force-march through the night, carrying two fallen allies and all their gear a couple of months ago. She only just had the capacity to do it (and one of the allies was tiny), bit it definitely comes up.

[Giant2005]

How often does that actually come up outside of OOTSverse?

I don't know what you mean by OOTSverse, but it comes up every time you want to grapple someone.

[PallentisLunam]

Okay that makes it the more sense. I was thinking more in the vein of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html)

Edit: since when do the grappling rules reference carry capacity? :smallconfused:

[Giant2005]

Okay that makes it the more sense. I was thinking more in the vein of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html)

Edit: since when do the grappling rules reference carry capacity? :smallconfused:

You have to be strong enough to move something in order to move it.

[PallentisLunam]

Well I don't think grappling is a thing in 5th but at least in 3.5 you weren't moving your opponent most of the time and when you were it specifically said that you could on a successful check without referencing the need to be able to lift your opponent.

[RickAllison]

Well I don't think grappling is a thing in 5th but at least in 3.5 you weren't moving your opponent most of the time and when you were it specifically said that you could on a successful check without referencing the need to be able to lift your opponent.

It most definitely is a thing. A common grappling tactic is dragging an enemy through the druid spell that damages with movement (I don't remember the name).

[Lines]

It most definitely is a thing. A common grappling tactic is dragging an enemy through the druid spell that damages with movement (I don't remember the name).

Spike growth. Dragging them back and forth in and out of a moonbeam does even better, however.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Spike growth. Dragging them back and forth in and out of a moonbeam does even better, however.

I'm daaaaancin' in the moonbeam, I take daaaamage and I scre-eam... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yBnIUX0QAE)

[Joe the Rat]

Into a cloud of daggers, into a bonfire, into a burning sphere, into the Hunger of Hadar, stick 'em in a web, drop them off a cliff, run up a cliff and let go...

[Pyon]

In a campaign I'm playing a Bearbarian Goliath. My strength is 20.

We were on a ship, and fighting a ghost ship that destroyed all our canons. I tell my DM "I'm going to pick up a barrel and throw it." he said "You possibly lift it". I ask him how much it weights. I don't remember what number he said, but I pulled out the weight rules. Basically, my character being a Goliath can lift 1200 pounds. After this revelation, the DM gave up and let me roll the attack to use a barrel of gunpowder as a ranged weapon :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[PallentisLunam]

Dear god. Where are the grappling rules for 5th? I couldn't find them in the PHB

[RickAllison]

In a campaign I'm playing a Bearbarian Goliath. My strength is 20.

We were on a ship, and fighting a ghost ship that destroyed all our canons. I tell my DM "I'm going to pick up a barrel and throw it." he said "You possibly lift it". I ask him how much it weights. I don't remember what number he said, but I pulled out the weight rules. Basically, my character being a Goliath can lift 1200 pounds. After this revelation, the DM gave up and let me roll the attack to use a barrel of gunpowder as a ranged weapon :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Have someone Enhance Ability (Strength) on you and your cargo capacity is that of an airship :smallsmile:

EDIT: page 195!

[Pyon]

Have someone Enhance Ability (Strength) on you and your cargo capacity is that of an airship :smallsmile:

EDIT: page 195!

Oh god yes I didn't even think of that. The bard in the party also has that spell... Let's go lift some dragons.

[RickAllison]

Oh god yes I didn't even think of that. The bard in the party also has that spell... Let's go lift some dragons.

Actually just thought of a hyper-theoretical and not very useful build. The Cannon-Lock!
Goliath werebear, Barbarian (Bear) 8/Warlock (Blade) 3/Sorcerer 3
Based on some cursory research, the cannon in the DMG weighs somewhere around 3400 pounds. With 20 Strength, doubled strength from goliath, from being large as a werebear, from bearbarian, and from Enhance Ability, the carrying capacity is 4800 pounds. Stick a bayonet on the cannon to qualify it as a melee weapon and have someone enchant it and the big lug can carry around a cannon as his pact weapon.

Negotiations not going well? Cannon-Time!

[Pyon]

actually just thought of a hyper-theoretical and not very useful build. The cannon-lock!
Goliath werebear, barbarian (bear) 8/warlock (blade) 3/sorcerer 3
based on some cursory research, the cannon in the dmg weighs somewhere around 3400 pounds. With 20 strength, doubled strength from goliath, from being large as a werebear, from bearbarian, and from enhance ability, the carrying capacity is 4800 pounds. Stick a bayonet on the cannon to qualify it as a melee weapon and have someone enchant it and the big lug can carry around a cannon as his pact weapon.

Negotiations not going well? Cannon-time!

"I am heavy weapons adventurer. And this? This is my weapon"

[RickAllison]

"I am heavy weapons adventurer. And this? This is my weapon"

Take three levels of Rogue (Thief) and have someone Haste him and he will be able to fire every turn! It is an utterly ridiculous combination, but darn it all it would have a place. Heck, grab 5 in Sorcerer and accept that you can't actually carry the thing and you can do it yourself!

[Serket]

The rules are incredibly generous. In pathfinder, playing str 12-14 finesse characters, I am always juggling items to try and keep my load in the "light" category, and it's difficult. But in 5th my str 8 arcane trickster can carry 120lbs without slowing down.

Not that this is a bad thing, per se. I mean, adding up weights and worrying about how many arrows to carry is not actually fun. But it is rather unreal-seeming.

If you wanted more restrictions, you could port or adapt the PF rules, but before you do I recommend you think hard about why you're doing it and what effect you're hoping to create:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/carrying-capacity


I'm daaaaancin' in the moonbeam, I take daaaamage and I scre-eam... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yBnIUX0QAE)

Damn it, I was hoping for Thin Lizzy. :smallsmile:

[RickAllison]

The rules are incredibly generous. In pathfinder, playing str 12-14 finesse characters, I am always juggling items to try and keep my load in the "light" category, and it's difficult. But in 5th my str 8 arcane trickster can carry 120lbs without slowing down.

Not that this is a bad thing, per se. I mean, adding up weights and worrying about how many arrows to carry is not actually fun. But it is rather unreal-seeming.

If you wanted more restrictions, you could port or adapt the PF rules, but before you do I recommend you think hard about why you're doing it and what effect you're hoping to create:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/carrying-capacity



Damn it, I was hoping for Thin Lizzy. :smallsmile:

They also have variant rules for encumbrance that capture more of that feel, and that is actually the system my IRL campaign runs. Basically, you can only freely carry 5 times your Strength. Up until 10 times your Strength, your speed is reduced by 10 feet, and beyond that to 15 times Strength the speed is reduced by 20 and disadvantage is applied to ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws that use Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. So for a 10 Strength PC, they could freely carry 50 lbs, 100 lbs at reduced speed, and be straining at 150 lbs.

EDIT: You can find those rules on page 176 of the PHB.

[PallentisLunam]

The Cannon Bearer was a nice thought.

[RickAllison]

The Cannon Bearer was a nice thought.

I am looting your pun if I can ever find a DM insane enough to allow it :smallbiggrin:

[PallentisLunam]

Hah, good luck with that :smallbiggrin:

[Vogonjeltz]

So I was playing Hoard of the Dragon Queen last night with my friends (I am the DM) and we are still in the first chapter where Greenest is under siege.

The party decided to split up to manage the defense of the castle and rescue townsfolk from the church.

Well on the way back the players rescuing the townspeople got spotted and they had to hold off waves of kobolds, cultists, and drakes while panicked civilians filed into the secret tunnel. Having broken the lock on their way out the players now needed a new way to secure the secret tunnel. So the party wizard, a halfling with an 8 for a strength score decided to throw the biggest box she could lift in front of the door.

This was when we discovered that she could lift 120 pounds! Does anyone else think the carry rules in 5E need some tweaking?

Isn't her movement speed reduced to 5 feet though?

[PallentisLunam]

Is it? I didn't see that in the book but I was doing a quick rule check while trying to keep the table going.

[RickAllison]

Is it? I didn't see that in the book but I was doing a quick rule check while trying to keep the table going.

Only if he is thinking of variant encumbrance. If not, he is incorrect.

[Talamare]

Both simple and variant encumbrance is in the PHB

Most people rather play the game, not play Inventory Manager

I bet fighting while carrying full gear would impose a bunch of penalties in real life, doesn't affect you at all in game.
No one ever asks if you set you backpacks down when you started fighting, no one asks if you picked it up afterwards.

Just handwaving the minor stuff

[RickAllison]

Both simple and variant encumbrance is in the PHB

Most people rather play the game, not play Inventory Manager

I bet fighting while carrying full gear would impose a bunch of penalties in real life, doesn't affect you at all in game.
No one ever asks if you set you backpacks down when you started fighting, no one asks if you picked it up afterwards.

Just handwaving the minor stuff

That's actually why the normal encumbrance is so generous. To quote the PHB:


Your carrying capacity is your
Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in
pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that
most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.

They set it at a level with the expectation that most players wouldn't have to worry. It only becomes an issue under specific circumstances.

[Pyon]

Honestly, outside of cheesing the rules with Goliaths I do believe that these ridiculous carry weights are better for the game. Penalties shouldn't be applied until something silly starts to happen. If I was DMing, and I gave a large locked chest to the party. I'd be fine with the Barbarian carrying it back to their base, but the Wizard I wouldn't allow it, even if he had the drag capacity for it.

[Once a Fool]

Dear god. Where are the grappling rules for 5th? I couldn't find them in the PHB

You probably glossed over them because they are actually simple enough to use in this edition.

[Once a Fool]

The other wrinkle being that small creatures become hella strong. Carry capacity goes down for tiny, but even then, you still run into the pseudodragon jet pack halfling problem.

The variant encumbrance cuts down on your crazy carry shenanigans, but doesn't help on that peak weight. You could pull the 3/4 carry capacity for Small creatures, but then you need to downscale the armor weight.

Downscaling armor weight might not be a bad idea in general.

Alternatively, you could treat small creatures as tiny for purposes of lifting, pushing, or pulling and leave their actual carrying capacity unchanged. This would reduce their ability to perform feats of strength without otherwise impacting the game.

[RickAllison]

Alternatively, you could treat small creatures as tiny for purposes of lifting, pushing, or pulling and leave their actual carrying capacity unchanged. This would reduce their ability to perform feats of strength without otherwise impacting the game.

Seems like a decent house-rule. Doesn't impact the game much, but does provide a penalty for verisimilitude with the bonuses for larger creatures.

[choryukami]

What's funny is the strongest people in the world aren't possiblt in D&D 5e rules, because they exceed 20 STR. Heck, my Strength is 16 and I'm not even that impressive. Deadlift 465ish. Top tier guys can do over 1000 which is impossible.

[RickAllison]

What's funny is the strongest people in the world aren't possiblt in D&D 5e rules, because they exceed 20 STR. Heck, my Strength is 16 and I'm not even that impressive. Deadlift 465ish. Top tier guys can do over 1000 which is impossible.

They must really be disguised Goliaths or werebears :smallwink:

[PallentisLunam]

Or be DM'ed by terribly lenient souls.

[Laserlight]

I treat encumbrance the same as I treat ammo or food -- ignore it unless it's a plot issue.

For example, tomorrow night the party is going to have to run a death course, inspired by the opening to Raiders of the Lost Ark. I expect some people will be slowed by poison darts, so if they're going to outrun the Boulder (a Gelatinous Cu...Sphere), someone is going to have to carry someone. But there are only two STR-based PCs in a party of five plus two NPCs. So in this instance, I'll enforce encumbrance.

[Vogonjeltz]

Only if he is thinking of variant encumbrance. If not, he is incorrect.

PHB 176, the Normal rules (not the Variant), you can only carry up to 120 lbs in total. Anything above that can only be dragged or pushed at a speed of 5 feet. It could still be lifted, but not actually carried.


They set it at a level with the expectation that most players wouldn't have to worry. It only becomes an issue under specific circumstances.

Yes, but in this specific case we're discussing the cap. If she's carrying gear any gear at all that would need to be accounted for.

[RickAllison]

PHB 176, the Normal rules (not the Variant), you can only carry up to 120 lbs in total. Anything above that can only be dragged or pushed at a speed of 5 feet. It could still be lifted, but not actually carried.



Yes, but in this specific case we're discussing the cap. If she's carrying gear any gear at all that would need to be accounted for.

He never stated how large the box was, just that she could carry 120 pounds, which she could. So yes, we were discussing the cap, but that wasn't relevant to the box. As far as any of us know, it could have been 90 pounds. Under normal rules, she can carry 120 pounds, she doesn't walk at 5 feet unless she goes over that. So you were incorrect.

[PallentisLunam]

I decided it was 3'x3'x3' and weighed 100 pounds.

But the question isn't what the rules are but if they are too lenient. This thread, tangents included, has helped me decide that.

[Vogonjeltz]

He never stated how large the box was, just that she could carry 120 pounds, which she could. So yes, we were discussing the cap, but that wasn't relevant to the box. As far as any of us know, it could have been 90 pounds. Under normal rules, she can carry 120 pounds, she doesn't walk at 5 feet unless she goes over that. So you were incorrect.

As a matter of fact he did intimate the weight:


So the party wizard, a halfling with an 8 for a strength score decided to throw the biggest box she could lift in front of the door.

This was when we discovered that she could lift 120 pounds! Does anyone else think the carry rules in 5E need some tweaking?

Bolded. Under the normal rules she can't lift that much along with her own gear and move, only drag/push at 5ft.

[Tanarii]

But the question isn't what the rules are but if they are too lenient. This thread, tangents included, has helped me decide that.Kinda sorta. It only starts to seem weird when you combine simple encumbrance and small races. Especially high strength small race characters. The Str 20 gnome can carry 300 lbs without slowing down. Of course, they're top speed was already 5/6 of a humans to start. But still.

[RickAllison]

As a matter of fact he did intimate the weight:



Bolded. Under the normal rules she can't lift that much along with her own gear and move, only drag/push at 5ft.

Yes, they wanted to find the largest box she could lift, and found out she could lift 120 pounds. That wasn't necessarily what the box weighed (indeed, the OP answered that it was actually 100 pounds), that was what they found when they looked up the rules. Pay attention to the conversation and you won't need to be corrected.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yes, they wanted to find the largest box she could lift, and found out she could lift 120 pounds. That wasn't necessarily what the box weighed (indeed, the OP answered that it was actually 100 pounds), that was what they found when they looked up the rules. Pay attention to the conversation and you won't need to be corrected.

Yes, I did that's why I state that it would slow her to 5ft dragging, no feet lifting. Which it does. You didn't correct anyone, you were just wrong.

[krugaan]

What's funny is the strongest people in the world aren't possiblt in D&D 5e rules, because they exceed 20 STR. Heck, my Strength is 16 and I'm not even that impressive. Deadlift 465ish. Top tier guys can do over 1000 which is impossible.

Ah, but how far can you carry that 465?

"The Mountain" did 1400lbs (?) but he only walked like 5 feet, and I doubt he could have gone 10.

[RickAllison]

Yes, I did that's why I state that it would slow her to 5ft dragging, no feet lifting. Which it does. You didn't correct anyone, you were just wrong.

You are only slowed to 5 feet if you exceed 120 pounds.

[Vogonjeltz]

You are only slowed to 5 feet if you exceed 120 pounds.

Yes and starting gear well exceeds 60 lbs, which puts the total at 180+ lbs

[RickAllison]

Yes and starting gear well exceeds 60 lbs, which puts the total at 180+ lbs

A) You have no idea what starting gear she has.
B) That's included in the 120 pounds she can lift.

What is so hard to understand? His remark had to do with how high the carrying capacity is, not how it related to the situation. That's not even getting into just being able to drop your backpack...

[Tanarii]

And no I guess we didn't but she is a wizard so it's not like she's got even 20 pounds of gear.


I decided it was 3'x3'x3' and weighed 100 pounds.


A) You have no idea what starting gear she has.

Pallentislunam has provided enough info that we know the total was between 100 lbs and 120 lbs.