Should an archivist have access to the adept spell list?

[Dren Nas]

I'm leaning toward no because it is a npc. Due to the following:

Archivist: "Rather, he must seek out and collect new spells much as a wizard does, but from such esoteric sources as holy tablets, ancient steles, or other magical scriptures."


Adept:"Adepts, unlike wizards, do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them as divine inspiration or through their own strength of faith."


Another question. Should divine casters be able to research divine versions of arcane spells? I'm thinking yes, but to a point. Maybe not the signature spells, but definitely others.

Thoughts?

[Flickerdart]

Adepts can take Scribe Scroll, and make scrolls. Scrolls are magical writings, which archivists can learn from.

[Starkeeper]

What Flickerdart said.

As for your second question, that's up to the DM.

You might want to remove your first link too, I'm pretty sure it's against forum policies to link illicit sources.

[Esprit15]

An archivist has access to all divine spells that they can write down. As far as I am concerned, if they can find an adept, they can use those spells that the adept knows. It hardly breaks the game to allow them access to the Adept spell list. Besides, the worst of their list is relegated to high levels. If you can find a character with NPC class levels that is also high enough to be reaching the end of the spell list, then by all means. If you're really concerned, just say that when leveling up, Archivists only gain spells from the cleric spell list, though iirc that's true anyways.

[Dren Nas]

What Flickerdart said.

As for your second question, that's up to the DM.

You might want to remove your first link too, I'm pretty sure it's against forum policies to link illicit sources.

Did not know that, but I did remove the links.

[Dren Nas]

Adepts can take Scribe Scroll, and make scrolls. Scrolls are magical writings, which archivists can learn from.

When they scribe the scroll, does a scroll of lightning bolt become divine or does it revert to arcane?

[Necroticplague]

Yes. An adept source of his spells may not be from writing, but he's perfectly free to write them down as scrolls. And an archivist is perfectly free to copy the resulting scroll into his spellbook. Just like how archivists acquire Cleric spells. The archivist is literally the only book-based divine caster I know of.

[Necroticplague]

When they scribe the scroll, does a scroll of lightning bolt become divine or does it revert to arcane?

It's divine. Divine casters write down divine scrolls. Why would Lightning Bolt be inherently arcane?

[Inevitability]

When they scribe the scroll, does a scroll of lightning bolt become divine or does it revert to arcane?

It doesn't become divine, it remains divine. It's a spell on the list of a divine spellcasting class and the scroll is scribed by a divine spellcaster. I don't see any reason to assume it's nondivine.

[Draconium]

When they scribe the scroll, does a scroll of lightning bolt become divine or does it revert to arcane?

If a divine caster scribes a scroll, the scroll is divine. So if an Adept scribes a scroll of Lightning Bolt, it's still an divine scroll, and therefore a divine spell.

[Flickerdart]

When they scribe the scroll, does a scroll of lightning bolt become divine or does it revert to arcane?

The scroll stays as divine. Rules citation:


Arcane spellcasters ... can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters ... can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm)

As a divine caster, an adept creates divine scrolls.

[Dren Nas]

The scroll stays as divine. Rules citation:



As a divine caster, an adept creates divine scrolls.

Good point. XD

[DrMotives]

The only reason I can think of to ban adept spells from archivists is if you want to ban archivists from becoming hexers. Which frankly, if you're the DM, you do by saying "PCs can't be hexers, it's an NPC class" if that's how you feel. I'm not going to comment here as to whether or not you should ban hexers, just that if you ban them, cut right to the chase and tell your table that. Cutting out adept spells from archivists otherwise doesn't do very much to either game balance or flavour of archivist, it's not like they're combat trapsmiths after all.

[Âmesang]

My first thought regarding the subject is that adepts get heal as a 5th-level spell. So, there's that.

[Thurbane]

The only reason I can think of to ban adept spells from archivists is if you want to ban archivists from becoming hexers. Which frankly, if you're the DM, you do by saying "PCs can't be hexers, it's an NPC class" if that's how you feel.

You can also get into Hexer with an ACF for Favored Souls, but not until after 12th level.

There have been many handbooks written about Archivists and the spells they can get access to.

On the topic of Hexer, if you do get into Hexer with Archivist of Favored Soul entry, this open up pretty much ever Sor/Wiz spell to Archivsts, since the Hexer gets to add these to it's spell list every 2nd level. It's cheesy, and wyou'd have to track down a LOT of Hexers (since every one is only going to know 5 of these at maximum).

[DrMotives]

On the topic of Hexer, if you do get into Hexer with Archivist of Favored Soul entry, this open up pretty much ever Sor/Wiz spell to Archivsts, since the Hexer gets to add these to it's spell list every 2nd level. It's cheesy, and wyou'd have to track down a LOT of Hexers (since every one is only going to know 5 of these at maximum).

And this is why I don't have a big problem with archivists hooking up with hexers. Honestly, there isn't going to be, realistically, a large & varied hexer community with a big variety of wizard/sorcerer spells for archivists to grab. Yes, a few if the archivists goes hunting, but not enough to allow PCs to walk into a large city & just purchase divine versions of all the arcane spells on their wish list. Many of them simply won't be found at all, as a lot of the hexers will likely pick similar spells.

The whole premise of the archivist class is the Lovecraft hero. All kinds of ultimate power is out there, potentially, but the acquiring it doesn't come easy. Making the player play out the hunting down of weirder/rarer divine scrolls instead of handwaving that into backstory, WBL, and shopping trips is the control to keep it from being OP.

[Godskook]

Are you asking RAW or balance? Everyone else has covered RAW, but by balance, having access to the Adept spell list just adds to how absurdly broken Archivist is. Short answer is: No, imho. Long answer is that the DM should be pulling on the reigns of any class that can outshine a cleric(especially if they're reigning in the cleric too). Personally, I'd do it via ensuring the Archivist had a raised difficulty towards finding spells off the cleric list, in various ways, but other DMs are perfectly reasonable to just say "no adept spell list for you".

[HunterOfJello]

Archivists can get spells off the Adept list and doing so still keeps them within the bounds of getting access to core class spell lists. If the creators of the Archivist only wanted you to have access to a few specific spell lists, they should have been way more explicit about it. It's very obvious people would certainly be grabbing from the cleric, druid, blackguard, paladin, ranger, and adept lists as a minimum.

As far as balance is concerned, getting access to the Adept list isn't going to break any Archivist and will only give them a few small boosts compared to a same level Cleric or Druid. (Evocation is not that powerful a spell school and lightning bolt is one of the less useful evocation spells of its level due to its shape compared to spells like Fireball.)

Adepts are also very common (especially compared to paladins or blackguards) and creating a scroll for an adept spell merely requires the Archivist to find a consenting Adept to build the scroll alongside him.

[Bullet06320]

There have been many handbooks written about Archivists and the spells they can get access to.


http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=185.msg613#msg613

such as this one

[Eisfalken]

Honestly, you think the most broken thing about archivist is the adept spell list?!

Let me stop you there: archivists can get shugenja scrolls; look them up in Complete Divine. There, now there's literally no reason to need an adept, unless they have some clutch spell on their list that can't be found anywhere else.

[Necroticplague]

Technically, Archivists have access to everyone's spell list. Alternate Spell Source and Southern Magician both exist, allowing for a Divine scroll of any spell to be made.

[Zancloufer]

You do realize how small the Adept spell list is and how few spells are not already on the Cleric or Druid list already?

Off the Top of my head they would gain:
1] Burning Hands, Sleep
2] Mirror Image. Also Continual Flame an entire level early! Infinite duration torches OP indeed!
3] Lightning Bolt
4] Stone Skin 1 level early. Though they do gain Polymorph and Minor Creation. Not bad actually
5] Major Creation! Also Heal like an entire level early. Because healing is totally OP in any way.

Honestly just flipping through the domains will probably give you much more power than the Adept spell list. Also would not be surprised if most of these examples are already on a domain somewhere as I was just looking at the SRD here.

Off the top of my head are things like Shadow Conjurations/Evocations (Any Conjutation/Evocation spell up to 6/7th level!), all the Teleports, Gate, Time Stop, Limited Wish, Disjunction, (Greater) Anyspell. All of those are on domains therefore can be considered Divine spells for the Archivist to scribe.

[Thurbane]

One house rule I've contemplated with Archivist is that if a spell appears on the Cleric and another list, it defaults to being the Cleric version for spell level.

For instance, Summon Giants is Disciple of Thrym level 4, or Cleric 8. It's pretty powerful for a level 4 spell, compared to say, Summon Monster IV. Would you rather be summoning a Fiendish Dire Wolf or 3 Fiendish Hill Giants?

[LTwerewolf]

Off the Top of my head they would gain:
1] Burning Hands, Sleep
2] Mirror Image. Also Continual Flame an entire level early! Infinite duration torches OP indeed!
3] Lightning Bolt
4] Stone Skin 1 level early. Though they do gain Polymorph and Minor Creation. Not bad actually
5] Major Creation! Also Heal like an entire level early. Because healing is totally OP in any way.



Most of those are in cleric domains. Quick example: Fire domain and dream domain for burning hands and sleep.