Reincarnation question (3.0 to 3.5)

[Fighteer]

Okay, I'm well aware that Reincarnation is a horribly vague spell and have read some of the previous threads debating its various attributes. I'm curious for an answer - not necessarily from RAW, although I'm curious about that too - but more what you would do as a DM in the same situation.

My character was a half-elf bard/sorcerer (yes, it's a twinkish build) - his level doesn't really matter for purposes of the question. He died during a game session and was reincarnated as a centaur. The game then converted later to 3.5 edition, where centaurs were removed from the list of creatures on the reincarnation list, but you obviously can't go back and *poof* him into something else.

So... obviously he gets the centaur's racial ability adjustments and proficiency with its natural attacks. He keeps his existing mental attributes and class levels (minus one for being raised).

Does he get the base racial Hit Dice of the centaur? If so, how do you calculate his new ECL? I can't see him losing class levels to compensate, but if he doesn't get the racial HD, he's an awfully weak and scrawny example of his species. I also presume he would get the skill points from his racial hit dice?

Also, can this character take the Multiattack feat? Normally he only has two natural attacks (hooves) at the -4 penalty for secondary attacks, but he also wields a weapon at the same time. If he wants to dual-wield, does he need both Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack or will one work for both purposes?

[Kurald Galain]

Essentially you're asking how people would houserule this, since afaik it isn't clearly covered in the rules.

I wouldn't give you racial HD since you already have class levels. You're scrawny but compensate for it. If for any reason you would convince me to give those HD anyway, I'd subtract from your class level to keep the party balanced.

I would allow multiattack. To my knowledge two-weapon fighting is for two hand-held weapons, and multiattack is for natural attacks. So if you'd want longsword/shortsword/hoof/hoof/bite you'd need both.

YMMV.

[Zincorium]

Well, straight from the way the rules for monsters work, you add on both the LA and the racial hit dice, because those are balancing factors for the high racial stats and large size, fast movement, etc. In your case it may be overbalanced since you're a caster and not a fighter type, but as it stands you should ask the DM to remove either the LA or the hit dice to some degree.

The ECL is LA + racial hit dice + class levels, so that's the easiest part. Yes, it means you won't level again for months if you can't get it adjusted down. And you do get the skill points for each racial hit dice. And remember that feats and ability points are based on hit dice, not class level, not ECL, but your total HD (also known as character level).

You don't really need multiattack, and don't qualify for it by default. Let me explain. Right now, you can make all your normal attacks on a full attack action, and then in addition to those can use hoof attacks at a -5 penalty (centaurs as presented in the MM have chosen to take weapon focus: hoof. You don't have to, and you don't get it as a bonus either). That's how natural weapons work. If you later qualify for and get multiattack, all it does is change that -5 to a -2. You don't get any more attacks, or better options, it just reduces the penalty.

[Starbuck_II]

Okay, I'm well aware that Reincarnation is a horribly vague spell and have read some of the previous threads debating its various attributes. I'm curious for an answer - not necessarily from RAW, although I'm curious about that too - but more what you would do as a DM in the same situation.

My character was a half-elf bard/sorcerer (yes, it's a twinkish build) - his level doesn't really matter for purposes of the question. He died during a game session and was reincarnated as a centaur. The game then converted later to 3.5 edition, where centaurs were removed from the list of creatures on the reincarnation list, but you obviously can't go back and *poof* him into something else.

Actually, it does have Centuar but only id\f you rolll 100% (DM's choice so DM chose a Centuar).



So... obviously he gets the centaur's racial ability adjustments and proficiency with its natural attacks. He keeps his existing mental attributes and class levels (minus one for being raised).

Does he get the base racial Hit Dice of the centaur? If so, how do you calculate his new ECL? I can't see him losing class levels to compensate, but if he doesn't get the racial HD, he's an awfully weak and scrawny example of his species. I also presume he would get the skill points from his racial hit dice?

I'd say no HD gained or LA.

You just get Size, and other Physical bonuses. No Skill bonuses (except racial modifiers)..



Also, can this character take the Multiattack feat? Normally he only has two natural attacks (hooves) at the -4 penalty for secondary attacks, but he also wields a weapon at the same time. If he wants to dual-wield, does he need both Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack or will one work for both purposes?

Multiattack requires 3 weapons that are natural (you have 2)

You can't get it.

[Blackbrrd]

I don't get the bard/sorcerer twink thing but anyway ;)

For a caster oriented class I would give you a +1 Level adjustment, no racial HD.

For a melee oriented class I would give you a +2 Level adjustment and make you take (not get) the racial HD the next 4 levels. At the same time I would give you less XP because of the increased power you just got, to balance it out a bit, so in a few levels time you should be at the same ECL as the rest of the party, but for a time you would be a bit more powerful.

[Fighteer]

I would allow multiattack. To my knowledge two-weapon fighting is for two hand-held weapons, and multiattack is for natural attacks. So if you'd want longsword/shortsword/hoof/hoof/bite you'd need both.
No bite attack. As another poster pointed out, you need three natural attacks to qualify for Multiattack, so I guess there's no legal way to bump that -5 up to -2 for the hooves.


I don't get the bard/sorcerer twink thing but anyway ;)
Two spontaneous spellcasting classes with the same primary ability score means this character gets insane quantities of low to mid level spells, since Charisma adds spells per day to both classes. Add a ring of wizardry (third level) to that mix and you have an unbeatable field artillery piece. Also, the concept arose with the 3.0 haste, which allowed two spells to be cast in the same round.

I am tempted to go with Zincorium's interpretation (and won't quote it here), and I do agree that being a primary spellcaster should qualify for a small reduction in the LA considering a centaur is a melee-oriented race.

[Jannex]

As I read it, you'd get the racial HD and the LA, and subsequently get less XP per encounter due to your increased ECL, until the rest of the party caught up with you. That's my thought, anyway.

[Blackbrrd]

Let us say level 7 sorc / level 7 bard vs a level 14 sorc... I know who I would put my money on any day.. ;) The level 14 probably has about as many spells as well, just much higher level, with much higher caster level...

[AtomicKitKat]

I'd slow your XP gain for the racial HD(ie, you would gain Exp as a character 4 levels higher, since that's the number of Racial HD), letting the rest of the party catch up(which they should do over the next 5 levels or so, which would be about the same time you'd finally get a new level), and drop the Level Adjustment altogether. You're already like what, level 7 before RHD? That is just 2 levels off from reducing LA+2 to LA+0 by the SRD. If you were level 9 or higher, I can definitely see dropping the LA without question.

[Fhaolan]

Since you have to house-rule around it anyway to make it 3.5, I'd go all the way. Adapt the Savage Species racial levels concept. I've been told that Races of the Wild has racial levels for centaurs, and that's a fully 3.5 book I believe.

The idea being that while you are technically reincarnated as a centaur, you need to take the time to learn your new body. The DM could rule one of two ways with this idea. Either you are required to level up with centaur racial levels, until you reach the end of the progression, or you can take levels of centaur just like you can of any multiclass. In that case, you just stay a very weak centaur until you 'grow' into the new body. Since this is all houserule anyway, it's up to the DM. :smallsmile:

[Aquillion]

Let us say level 7 sorc / level 7 bard vs a level 14 sorc... I know who I would put my money on any day.. ;) The level 14 probably has about as many spells as well, just much higher level, with much higher caster level...You have to remember that that build was made for 3.0, where Haste let you cast two spells a round. It's worse now.

...although, yeah, even in 3.0 it isn't that great. Lower-level spells are seriously weaker than higher level spells, and eventually hit a cap no matter what you do, so you end up losing even the limited advantage of extra weak spells.

[Fighteer]

The idea being that while you are technically reincarnated as a centaur, you need to take the time to learn your new body. The DM could rule one of two ways with this idea. Either you are required to level up with centaur racial levels, until you reach the end of the progression, or you can take levels of centaur just like you can of any multiclass. In that case, you just stay a very weak centaur until you 'grow' into the new body. Since this is all houserule anyway, it's up to the DM.
That's an interesting idea, and actually makes sense from a play balance standpoint.


You have to remember that that build was made for 3.0, where Haste let you cast two spells a round. It's worse now.

...although, yeah, even in 3.0 it isn't that great. Lower-level spells are seriously weaker than higher level spells, and eventually hit a cap no matter what you do, so you end up losing even the limited advantage of extra weak spells.
I agree, and I eventually found the build to be underpowered compared to the rest of the party against high level encounters. However, it's quite an arsenal against large numbers of low level opponents.

[Fixer]

I also agree with Fhaolan about the development.

It has never come up before in my games (there was a minotaur->pixie reincarnation once but that's a really warped story) but I would go by Fhaolan's determination. The character would gain the size adjustment and reach for a Centaur, no positive physical ability modifiers and none of their attacks/abilities (including the hoof attacks). Upon reaching the next level, you can start gaining the centaur abilities and hit dice and your physical ability modifiers start going up as you learn to use your new body.