Turning Undead

[LoyalPaladin]

Good afternoon, playground! I am super embarrassed that I of all people have to ask this question, but can someone explain turning undead to me? At our last session I was reading over the rules for turning undead (not something I do that often, even as a paladin) and got a little confused. If someone could break it down step by step that'd be cool. I'm mostly confused about how many things you can turn. If you can turn 13 hit dice, is that the equivalent of 13 hit dice worth of monsters (13 1 hit die monsters or 1 13 hit die monster)? Or is it any undead that has 13 hit die or less?

-LP

[Draconium]

Quoth the SRD:


Turning Check
The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.

It looks like that turning affects any undead with HD equal to or less than what the result would indicate - in your example, it'd be any undead with 13 or less HD. I believe.

[Aleolus]

Its both LP. First you roll your Turning Check, which determines the highest HD an undead can have to be turned, then you roll Turning Damage to see the total number of HD you can turn. So if your Turn check indicates Cleric Level +2, and you roll 13 damage, you can turn up to 13 HD of undead, but it only affects undead with HD equal to or fewer than your Cleric level +2

[Thurbane]

Yeah, Turn undead is a little counter intuitive the way it works. Here's how it goes:


Roll your Turning Check (1d20 + Cha mod). Then consult the table to determine the most powerful undead you can effect. Say your "most powerful undead" result ended up being 7: you could affect Wights (4 HD) but not a Mummy (8 HD). Note: this is a Charisma check, so can be affected by things like a Marshal aura. You get a +2 bonus on the roll if you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge Religion.
Roll your Turning Damage (2d6 + Cleric level + Cha mod). That the total number of hit dice you can effect. Say you got a "most powerful undead" result of 11, and you were facing three Wights. You could affect the first 2 (total of 8 HD), but not the third (as you only have another 3HD you could affect). It is possible to mess up this roll, even if you succeeded on your turning check: if you rolled a turning check of 9 against a Mummy, but then rolled turning damage of 7, it would not be turned.


Things to note: you turn the closest undead first, within 60 feet. You must have line of effect to the undead, but you don't need line of sight (i.e. you could turn undead hidden in a Fog Cloud, but not those around the corner in a dungeon).




Turning Check
Result
Most Powerful Undead
Affected (Maximum Hit Dice)


0 or lower
Cleric’s level – 4


1–3
Cleric’s level – 3


4–6
Cleric’s level – 2


7–9
Cleric’s level – 1


10–12
Cleric’s level


13–15
Cleric’s level + 1


16–18
Cleric’s level + 2


19–21
Cleric’s level + 3


22 or higher
Cleric’s level + 4

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unfortunately, turning is generally not terribly useful unless you're either being assailed by a mob of weak undead or you're a turning specialist. Undead HD scale much faster than their CR and higher level undead often have turning resistance to boot. This especially sucks for paladins since they start at -3 to their effective cleric level.

[PallentisLunam]

Not really the question asked but I'm partial to the Destruction of the Undead variant from Complete Divine. You deal 1d6/level to any undead within a 30' radius with a Will save DC 10+Cha Mod for half. Evil clerics heal for this amount. Undead with turn resistance gain DR vs this equal to their turn resistance. Works much better than standard turning for me.

[johnbragg]

Not really the question asked but I'm partial to the Destruction of the Undead variant from Complete Divine. You deal 1d6/level to any undead within a 30' radius with a Will save DC 10+Cha Mod for half. Evil clerics heal for this amount. Undead with turn resistance gain DR vs this equal to their turn resistance. Works much better than standard turning for me.

Pathfinder calls this "Channel Energy", and in Pathfinder, it advances like Sneak Attack, +1d6 per 2 class levels.

Step 1. Roll your Turning Check, d20 + Charisma modifier.
Step 2. Check table for Max HD turned. That's the biggest, baddest undead beastie you can turn. Anything over the limit, you can't turn.
Step 3. Roll 2d6 + Charisma modifier + Cleric level. That's how many total hit dice of undead you can turn.
Undead are turned starting closest to you, passing over any already turned.
Any turned undead who have fewer HD than 1/2 your CL get destroyed.

[PallentisLunam]

It also gets more utility such as being used as a burst heal.

[LoyalPaladin]

Thanks for all the info, friends. It makes a lot more sense to me now.


Yeah, Turn undead is a little counter intuitive the way it works. Here's how it goes:


Roll your Turning Check (1d20 + Cha mod). Then consult the table to determine the most powerful undead you can effect. Say your "most powerful undead" result ended up being 7: you could affect Wights (4 HD) but not a Mummy (8 HD). Note: this is a Charisma check, so can be affected by things like a Marshal aura. You get a +2 bonus on the roll if you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge Religion.
Roll your Turning Damage (2d6 + Cleric level + Cha mod). That the total number of hit dice you can effect. Say you got a "most powerful undead" result of 11, and you were facing three Wights. You could affect the first 2 (total of 8 HD), but not the third (as you only have another 3HD you could affect). It is possible to mess up this roll, even if you succeeded on your turning check: if you rolled a turning check of 9 against a Mummy, but then rolled turning damage of 7, it would not be turned.


Things to note: you turn the closest undead first, within 60 feet. You must have line of effect to the undead, but you don't need line of sight (i.e. you could turn undead hidden in a Fog Cloud, but not those around the corner in a dungeon).
Turning is, in general, less useful than I thought. However, it makes a lot more sense now. So that's nice, I guess! Haha.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Roll your Turning Damage (2d6 + Cleric level + Cha mod). That the total number of hit dice you can effect. Say you got a "most powerful undead" result of 11, and you were facing three Wights. You could affect the first 2 (total of 8 HD), but not the third (as you only have another 3HD you could affect). It is possible to mess up this roll, even if you succeeded on your turning check: if you rolled a turning check of 9 against a Mummy, but then rolled turning damage of 7, it would not be turned.

Didn't notice before but this isn't quite correct.

If you rolled 11 on the turning check such that the most powerful undead you could turn has 11HD or fewer, you could stil turn all three wights as long as your turning damage comes up 12 or more. The turning check only puts a cap on how powerful an undead you can turn, it doesn't effect how many you can turn on that attempt at all.

[torrasque666]

Didn't notice before but this isn't quite correct.

If you rolled 11 on the turning check such that the most powerful undead you could turn has 11HD or fewer, you could stil turn all three wights as long as your turning damage comes up 12 or more. The turning check only puts a cap on how powerful an undead you can turn, it doesn't effect how many you can turn on that attempt at all.
He's referring to the Turning Damage section, not the Turning Check. Two different rolls. One determines maximum hit die, one determines total hit die.

[Kelb_Panthera]

He's referring to the Turning Damage section, not the Turning Check. Two different rolls. One determines maximum hit die, one determines total hit die.

That would be correct but in both instances he used the phrase "most powerful undead" to denote the check. A = A, so if he meant what we said, he wrote it poorly.

[jedipilot24]

If you have Complete Divine or Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, they offer a simplified variant that is basically the prototype to what Pathfinder did with Turn Undead.

Both allow you to actually harm undead rather than just forcing them to run away, which can really screw up encounters.

[RoyVG]

Turning loses its functionality rather quick, because undead HD scales way faster than your level in general. A 10HD creature turned into a zombie (20HD) is only CR 6 according to the SRD, it's practically impossible for a 6th level Cleric to get his effective Cleric level above 15 without the aid of some serious magic items.

It works best to get rid of large amounts of weak undead, but one single strong undead is basically impossible to do at later levels. The turn damage also does not scale all that well, though again, magic items can increase that a little. I assume you can use your 'effective Cleric level' for the damage as well, that would buff it a little if you can get a a consistent +10 on your turn check? You can get some pretty decent milage if you take the Sun domain and Glory domain, but your 'effective Cleric level' will be the most limiting factor.

Again, it might be handy to have at least one turn attempt available if you expect it, but if you don't, it's usually solved by the party wizard equally fast.

From personal experience, nothing beats the feeling of destroying >10 undead mooks in one blast at level 5 (of which only 2 Cleric!) with an 18 on the dice roll :smallbiggrin:. And I did that twice in the span of three sessions.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I have, just recently, discovered what may well be a saving grace for turning; the combine turning divine feat from the ghostwalk web enhancement. When you turn undead you can sac' extra turn attempts for +4 to both the turning check and turning damage per attempt sac'ed.

You're still going to have to specialize for turning to be viabale but this helps a -lot-.

[Aleolus]

There's also a feat in BoED that boosts turning damage by an additional 3d6, so that's a help

[RoyVG]

I have, just recently, discovered what may well be a saving grace for turning; the combine turning divine feat from the ghostwalk web enhancement. When you turn undead you can sac' extra turn attempts for +4 to both the turning check and turning damage per attempt sac'ed.

You're still going to have to specialize for turning to be viabale but this helps a -lot-.

It helps to get to that '+4 Cleric level (DC22 or higher)', and the +4 turning damage is not bad. Still the greatest limitation you have is your Cleric Level, you cannot turn anything with a high Hit die


There's also a feat in BoED that boosts turning damage by an additional 3d6, so that's a help

If you mean Exalted Turning, the way I'm reading it is that it deals 3d6 points of (ordinary, lethal, whatever) damage to each undead affected by the turning, it's not extra 'turning damage' (so no 5d6 + Cleric Level+Cha mod).

You're best bet for increasing turning damage are items that raise your Charisma score or your Cleric level, (e.g. Phylactery of Undead Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofUndeadTurning) for +4 Cleric level, and I believe there is one in MIC that is another +1 Cleric level). The Glory domain's granted power gives an additional +1d6 turning damage and is specificially mentioned as such.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It helps to get to that '+4 Cleric level (DC22 or higher)', and the +4 turning damage is not bad. Still the greatest limitation you have is your Cleric Level, you cannot turn anything with a high Hit die

Well, yeah. But see also; night stick abuse. Burning off a nightstick* with one of your normal turning attempt gets you up to +16 on both; nearly guaranteeing the +4 and giving you just gobs of turning damage to make sure it sticks. There's a reason I incorporated a houserule that turning attempts are like PP; only one source of turn attempts can be used to fuel a given feat.

*Nightsticks were 4 attempts per stick, right?

[Thurbane]

Didn't notice before but this isn't quite correct.

If you rolled 11 on the turning check such that the most powerful undead you could turn has 11HD or fewer, you could stil turn all three wights as long as your turning damage comes up 12 or more. The turning check only puts a cap on how powerful an undead you can turn, it doesn't effect how many you can turn on that attempt at all.

Yes, worded that very badly. SHould not have made reference to most powerful undead in regards to turning damage...

[RoyVG]

Well, yeah. But see also; night stick abuse. Burning off a nightstick* with one of your normal turning attempt gets you up to +16 on both; nearly guaranteeing the +4 and giving you just gobs of turning damage to make sure it sticks. There's a reason I incorporated a houserule that turning attempts are like PP; only one source of turn attempts can be used to fuel a given feat.

*Nightsticks were 4 attempts per stick, right?

It definitely works great if you want to clear a field of weak skeletons and zombies that you would otherwise not be able to with just one attempt.