[3.5] Couple of RHD Questions

[Thurbane]

Couple of questions I've seen debated a couple of times, and I wanted to get your thoughts (I've asked about these in the Q&A thread previously).


Special attack DCs are generally based on 10 + (HD / 2) + ability mod. If the creature gains class levels, do the class levels count towards towards the DC?


Initiator classes add 1/2 of the total of other classes to the Initiator Level (i.e. a Warblade 3/Fighter 2 would have an Initiator Level of 4). Do you racial HD count as classes towards this calculation?

Need citations for both please, as I've seen these argued both ways.

Cheers - T

[Jormengand]

When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows:

10 + ½ the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier.


That answers the first one. In the second case, the initiator thing presumably says levels, so it means levels. If it says hit dice it means hit dice.

[Thurbane]

That answers the first one. In the second case, the initiator thing presumably says levels, so it means levels. If it says hit dice it means hit dice.

Where does that quote come from - I've seen people pull out other quotes where it simply states "hit dice" not "racial hit dice"?

For instance, under Supernatural abilities in the Rules Compendium it says this:


Supernatural ability saving throw DC = 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the modifier for the ability score on which the ability is based + other modifiers (often racial)

[Jormengand]

Where does that quote come from - I've seen people pull out other quotes where it simply states "hit dice" not "racial hit dice"?

For instance, under Supernatural abilities in the Rules Compendium it says this:

It's disputed whether the RC actually trumps the original rules (as in, even the rules on which one wins when they contradict are themselves contradictory) but my quote was from the monster manual, page 6.

[Thurbane]

On Initiator Levels, not sure if these are relevant:


If you are a multiclass martial adept, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial adept class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes.


The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. A creature’s "monster class" is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size.

[Jormengand]

On Initiator Levels, not sure if these are relevant:

Ah. "Monster class" is put in inverted commas to explain that it's not actually a real class, I would imagine. So no, "Monster classes" are not real classes (although they are favoured classes, not all favoured classes are classes). Or at least, I assume as much.

[HunterOfJello]

It's disputed whether the RC actually trumps the original rules (as in, even the rules on which one wins when they contradict are themselves contradictory) but my quote was from the monster manual, page 6.

The Monster Manual 1 isn't a very good source for quotes. Lots of rules were changed after the book was released. Typos were corrected, loose ends were tied up, and things were improved in general. The Monster Manual 3 and the SRD have much better definitions and are streamlined to contain almost all the same information (but updated).



The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

For a specific ability, I would check what the monster or class entry says to calculate it. Some say racial hit dice and others say hit dice. If it doesn't say anything I would assume hit dice (without the racial-only limitation).

So,

1. Yes. Unless the ability specifically says "racial hit dice" when it mentions how its being calculated and isn't in the MM1.

2. Looks like they keep using the term class level over and over instead of hit dice, so only class levels would count RAW. No clue on RAI, but if you give a Cloud Giant one level in Warblade and an initiator level of 9 right off the bat, then that will be a very scary cloud giant.

[Troacctid]

The rule for supernatural abilities is more specific than the rule for all special abilities, so if it's a (Su) ability, the (Su) rule takes precedence anyway.