what would you have done?

[EvilElitest]

Ok presume for a second that you have a level 13 wizard and your job is to hold that breach in AC in the same manner V did? How would you have done it?
from,
EE

[Scatman]

Ha, I love this question...

I would empowered fireball every single hobo..EVERY SINGLE ONE.I would finish the rest off with fingers of death, and hire a team of builders to fix it.I would use my timestop scroll and screw around with physics to where it stopped all of azure inside a massive unmoving time flow.I would then use an empowered implode that was supersized by a glitch in time and destroy all of azure city.

[rankrath]

Control weather, tornado right at the Hobb army, run it around till they route.
Any that survive, lightning bolt.

[Morty]

I'd block the passage with Wall of Iron and put Cloudkill before it. No hobgoblins would go past this.
Yay lame but ridiculously powerful spells!

[Quikngruvn]

Ok presume for a second that you have a level 13 wizard and your job is to hold that breach in AC in the same manner V did? How would you have done it?
from,
EE

Wait, are we 13th level Evokers with Conjuration and Necromancy(?) barred, like V is, or are we 13th level wizards who have all spells available?

If the former, the previously mentioned Wall of Iron/Cloudkill combo would not be an option.

(Personally I don't see the point of specialized wizards, but I've always tended to favor versatility over doing a few things really well.)

[added] Gah, I just looked at the material components of Wall of Iron. Who carries around a pound of gold dust?

[Aquillion]

Are we allowed to set our own build? Like, say, can we not have conjurations barred? And can we, say, put several levels in IotSV or something similar? (Granted, at level 13 I think we could only mange 3 levels of IotSV, but that's still 2/day up to the yellow ward for 30 minutes, not bad for stopping an assault so you can cloudkill the massed opponents.)

Anyway. Cloudkill, cloudkill, cloudkill. Most typical hobgoblins won't even get a save; they'll just die instantly.

And any symbols without hit point limits. Consider a shield or other flat object prepared in advance with a Symbol of Weakness or Symbol of Sleep. 3d6 strength damage would cripple most of the attackers to the point of uselessness, and few could make the save; while Symbol of Sleep will put almost all of them to sleep. Of course, if you want to be snarky, prepare it in advance with Permanency so it can last the whole battle, and couple it with a permanent symbol of stunning... or even multiples of each symbol, if you want. Spread them out so they can't easily be dispelled.

Oh, and Wall of Stone or Wall of Iron to seal the breach, naturally.

[Spiryt]

I'd block the passage with Wall of Iron and put Cloudkill before it. No hobgoblins would go past this.
Yay lame but ridiculously powerful spells!

They wouldn't run into it like idiots.
They will gather many towells and draft will move cloud to the city :smallbiggrin:

[Mystyco]

cloudkill, cannot think of a better one ATM :|

[Emperor Ing]

2 words, meteor bombardment, target? Guess!

[Kurald Galain]

Isn't there some kind of massive-area-effect illusion spell that you can foil the hobbos with? Or use tremor spells to make a chasm across the battlefield, stuff like that. Or weather control to summon any kind of sleet, fog, rain, whatever makes charging difficult.

[Brianish]

Ha, I love this question...

I would empowered fireball every single hobo..EVERY SINGLE ONE.I would finish the rest off with fingers of death, and hire a team of builders to fix it.I would use my timestop scroll and screw around with physics to where it stopped all of azure inside a massive unmoving time flow.I would then use an empowered implode that was supersized by a glitch in time and destroy all of azure city.

So you're not familiar with the level system then?

[Studoku]

I'd go with web. It won't stop them all but some troops on the other side of the breach can take out anyone that gets through. Anything caught in the web gets hit by archers and the occasional fireball.

Simple and effective, with only 3rd level spells being used.

[chibibar]

There was an old spell that I love in mass combat..

Virus charm ;)

[Snake-Aes]

Is preparation beforehand allowed? I'd like to use a shape terrain to create a hole around the wall(is that druid-only? I don't remember)

Symbols without HP Limits are a big win, weakness, for me, seems enough, for most hobbos would stay with 2...3 str, they'd fall on ground due to excessive encumbrance.Permanency ftw.


if not... wall of iron? cloudkill is kinda hard to retain, maybe wall of fire.Iron would retain the army but fire would kill them as they enter, and wounded units woudln't survive a hit.

[TheNovak]

Given V's restrictions against Conjuration, I would go with Illusory Terrain around the wall, and a Walls of Fire (extended, preferably) layed across the gap in case they got through. Hobbos have decent Reflex saves with their inherent +2 Dex, but half damage would still likely kill a standard, MM-statted orange dude.

[Ganurath]

Ok presume for a second that you have a level 13 wizard and your job is to hold that breach in AC in the same manner V did? How would you have done it?
from,
EEAssuming I have V's spell options, I would have picked up a Scroll of Reverse Gravity, assuming the spell wasn't on his list. I'd then follow up with Animate Rope to lasso the parapets to catch myself as I enter the field, eventually pulling myself out of it atop the wall. After eliminating the hobgoblins caught in the gravity with a fireball, I'd summon some Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion to seal the breach for an extended duration.

If I had my own spell list, Conjuration would be my specialty instead of a barred school, so I'd toss up Wall of Stone in front of the breach, ride Tenser's Floating Disc up the rubble like stairs, and summon Earth Elementals of optimal number to give them something to talk about, keeping a spell slot open for a catch-all Limited Wish. Plenty of dispel magic handy, of course, such as if Xykon flies within range with his Overland Flight, high altitude, falling damage, and poetic justice.

[EvilElitest]

Wait, are we 13th level Evokers with Conjuration and Necromancy(?) barred, like V is, or are we 13th level wizards who have all spells available?

If the former, the previously mentioned Wall of Iron/Cloudkill combo would not be an option.

(Personally I don't see the point of specialized wizards, but I've always tended to favor versatility over doing a few things really well.)

[added] Gah, I just looked at the material components of Wall of Iron. Who carries around a pound of gold dust?

Clarify, you are built like V, 13 level elf evokers with conjuration and necro mancy banned sorry


Basiclly, assume you are V right their, just at the breach. I'd assume that you have already did the giant soilder's deal, but what then?

from,
EE

[Kreistor]

Hallucinatory Terrain doesn't work once someone interacts with it. You need something real and permanent.

The conjured walls are permanent, but denied to V, who we know can't Teleport due to Conjuration being a banned school.

The other walls are all temporary, and mostly rounds/level, so they'll last one minute and 18 seconds. That's not going to stop an army. Cloudkill is better at 1 min/level. Unfortunately, Cloudkill doesn't affect the ghouls.

Maximized Fireballs, being overkill, are still only going to kill 44 hobs per casting. V isn't going to have many more than half a dozen of those, even if V memorized only that for the day. As an instantaneous, this will hold the breach for only as many rounds as V has spells, which is not going to exceed a minute. Even falling back on just evocations, you're still looking at holding the gap for a few minutes. It also has the side effect of making V the obvious target for ranged enemies. Even worst case, V is hit 5% of the time. A couple thousand archers concentrating on V for one round hit >100 times, which V will not survive.

V's actual solution was temporary and limited as well, and I feel overplayed. The defenders were strengthened, yes, but an organized assault would work to sunder their weapons, making the large defenders useless. The hobs at that breach were, in short, played to be stupid.

One of the better options available to V is Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. Minutes per level and a 4th level cast, and it should block a gap 26' across. Four castings hold the breach for an hour. It can't be penetrated or moved. It might not block the entire breach, but it certainly restricts where the hobs can come through, making it much easier to defend against them.

Still, the problem is that V did not foresee the breach, and therefore did not have spells available to block it. V was set to help others fight, but not to defend a sudden weak point. Simply put, she had the wrong spells memorized. That is part of the ultimate weakness of the Wizard. A wizards lower castings per day relative to a sorcerer is supposed to be countered by being able to tailor spells to the situation on a daily basis; however, in practice, the Wizard doesn't know what will be faced most days, and so doesn't get the bonus they should.

[EvilElitest]

Hallucinatory Terrain doesn't work once someone interacts with it. You need something real and permanent.

The conjured walls are permanent, but denied to V, who we know can't Teleport due to Conjuration being a banned school.

The other walls are all temporary, and mostly rounds/level, so they'll last one minute and 18 seconds. That's not going to stop an army. Cloudkill is better at 1 min/level. Unfortunately, Cloudkill doesn't affect the ghouls.

Maximized Fireballs, being overkill, are still only going to kill 44 hobs per casting. V isn't going to have many more than half a dozen of those, even if V memorized only that for the day. As an instantaneous, this will hold the breach for only as many rounds as V has spells, which is not going to exceed a minute. Even falling back on just evocations, you're still looking at holding the gap for a few minutes. It also has the side effect of making V the obvious target for ranged enemies. Even worst case, V is hit 5% of the time. A couple thousand archers concentrating on V for one round hit >100 times, which V will not survive.

V's actual solution was temporary and limited as well, and I feel overplayed. The defenders were strengthened, yes, but an organized assault would work to sunder their weapons, making the large defenders useless. The hobs at that breach were, in short, played to be stupid.

One of the better options available to V is Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. Minutes per level and a 4th level cast, and it should block a gap 26' across. Four castings hold the breach for an hour. It can't be penetrated or moved. It might not block the entire breach, but it certainly restricts where the hobs can come through, making it much easier to defend against them.

Still, the problem is that V did not foresee the breach, and therefore did not have spells available to block it. V was set to help others fight, but not to defend a sudden weak point. Simply put, she had the wrong spells memorized. That is part of the ultimate weakness of the Wizard. A wizards lower castings per day relative to a sorcerer is supposed to be countered by being able to tailor spells to the situation on a daily basis; however, in practice, the Wizard doesn't know what will be faced most days, and so doesn't get the bonus they should.

So, what would you do if you were a 13 level elf envoker? Other than the sphere idea
from,
EE

[Twilight Jack]

As a 13th level Evoker, I do know one thing I'd have done. I'd have saved a Prismatic Spray for that final Hobgoblin charge. Good times, that.

[Kreistor]

So, what would you do if you were a 13 level elf envoker? Other than the sphere idea
from,
EE

Lose? There's probably something somewhere that might help for a while, but nothing is going to hold that breach short of Conjuring a wall, or repairing it. Stone Shape would help, but at only 23 cu ft, it's not going to put that wall back full without a lot of castings.

Besides, it doesn't come down to "what would you do?", since it is too late to prepare for it if you didn't predict it. It is "What would you have memorized for the day, and when faced with this surprise situation, could you have dealt with it?"

[David Argall]

Still, the problem is that V did not foresee the breach, and therefore did not have spells available to block it.

But the breach was a very obvious threat. V might have assumed it would not happen the first day and thus prepared other spells, but it is a serious failing anyway.

Of course, we should be asking just what was the city thinking? Why wasn't there a conjurerist on call to make walls in such a case?

[BanjoTheClown]

I Probably would have killed everyone in the breach with Fireball.

[comicadv]

Unlike DnD this is a comic and the rules can be bent...into a U. I would have used a control to blow the hobbgobblins into a big pile.
Then only the min. amount of fireballs would have been needed to get them all.
Then I would supersize the soldiers to get any that still are going for the wall.

[Chronos]

I my biggest asset is that the hobs don't know what my capabilities are. This makes illusions potentially very powerful. The best choice would be Illusionary Wall, made to look like a Wall of Stone. Eventually, they'll figure out it's fake, but it might fool them for quite a while. They won't get a save until they interact with it, and why would they try to interact with a wall of stone? And unlike most of the non-conjuration barriers, it's permanent, so if they're fooled, it could stop them indefinitely.

Of course, V may or may not have that prepared, and may not even have it in es spellbook. The poor man's solution, then, is a Silent Image. That's low enough level and versatile enough that V almost certainly knows it, and is not unlikely to have prepared it (what else is e going to do with those 1st-level slots?). The downside, compared to Illusionary Wall, is that it's got a duration of Concentration. I would, of course, drop it as soon as hobs start coming through, but in the meantime, I can't cast any other spells.

Reading through the spell lists, I see that Wall of Fire actually has a duration of Concentration + 1 round/level, and like the illusions, there's no reason I can't concentrate on the wall all day. Unlike the illusions, a Wall of Fire will actually stop the hobgoblins if they try to charge through. Or, rather, it won't stop them, but it will kill them: 2d6+13 damage will kill most things up to about 3rd or 4th level, and if anything bigger than that comes along, it'll be weakened enough that the regular soldiers (or soldiers buffed with Potions of Heroism) can kill it. At 4th level, I can't be assured of having it available, unlike Silent Image, but it's a pretty good spell for a battle, so a smart wizard would likely have prepared it even without anticipating a breach. If, again, that wizard knew the spell.

Of course, no matter what V could have done, almost all of it is subject to Dispell Magic. And the hobgoblins have a lot of clerics running around. They've probably filled most of their 3rd-level spots with Animate Dead, but they have to have a few Dispells between them.

[de-trick]

i would have give every soldier that was high level bull strength, bears endurance to make them extra strong then rage on the most strongest, then start blasting

[Mashadar]

Just curious, but is there a per-entry limit to dimension door spells?

Because I had a thought of combining Hallucinatory Terrain to make the breach appear smaller, and a dimension door sitting where it appears open...and an exit some 1500 feet up over the plains.

Hobgoblin rain! :smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

Lose? There's probably something somewhere that might help for a while, but nothing is going to hold that breach short of Conjuring a wall, or repairing it. Stone Shape would help, but at only 23 cu ft, it's not going to put that wall back full without a lot of castings.

Besides, it doesn't come down to "what would you do?", since it is too late to prepare for it if you didn't predict it. It is "What would you have memorized for the day, and when faced with this surprise situation, could you have dealt with it?"

1. defeatist, bear in mind, you have control of the troops. You can very well order them to help after your spells. I think your sphere idea combined with the giant troops could be clever, if only V moved the remaining troops from behind into the breech as well
2. We don't know all the spells V knows, so we can only assume that we could memorize spell related to such a situation.
from,
EE

[Kreistor]

But the breach was a very obvious threat. V might have assumed it would not happen the first day and thus prepared other spells, but it is a serious failing anyway.

Why focus on V? There are other people there. V wound up at the breach, but it was not V's job. V went to deal with the Ti Elementals and discovered those at the breach needed help and stayed.

Whose job is it to "deal" with a breach? Stone Shape is the best way to fix the breach, and look at that. It's a 5th level spell for V. It's a 3rd level spell for Durkon. And Durkon doesn't have to have it in a spellbook: he only needs to pray for it that morning. Durkon can fix more breaches than V can.

You're trying to put a square peg in a round hole, and blaming the peg for not fitting.

[Kreistor]

defeatist

Just thinking like V. V bailed on the breach, after all, defeated.


We don't know all the spells V knows

And that is what limits our ability to place ourselves in V's shoes. Without V's spell list, we can't do any more than say, "Ideally we might do this if we expected the situation and had these spells in the spell book."

If you're looking at planning for a breach the previous day, then i would definitely not be assigning V to the breach. That would be Roy and Durkon's job. V's job would be maximizing the number of deaths V could cause. Though V only kills 44 per casting, with about 20 castings, that's about 900 enemy dead, which is a noticable dent in 30000.

[EvilElitest]

Just thinking like V. V bailed on the breach, after all, defeated.

But i'm not asking V, we have seen what He/she did, what would you do if you were the same class same situation, but able to prepare spells


And that is what limits our ability to place ourselves in V's shoes. Without V's spell list, we can't do any more than say, "Ideally we might do this if we expected the situation and had these spells in the spell book."
Hence why all your are doing is assumeing you are a level 13 elven evoker with an natrual 18 int in the same situation using your own spell selection


If you're looking at planning for a breach the previous day, then i would definitely not be assigning V to the breach. That would be Roy and Durkon's job. V's job would be maximizing the number of deaths V could cause. Though V only kills 44 per casting, with about 20 castings, that's about 900 enemy dead, which is a noticable dent in 30000.

Your evading the question, if you were a wizard of V's level in that situation with command of the troops, what would you do? Could V, with the right spell selection held the breach?
from,
EE

[Setra]

If I were a 13th level Elf evoker...

I'd run off and find someone who can cast Prismatic Wall.

[Ganurath]

Come to think of it, most of my plan was pretty redundant. Cast Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (remember the Chimera?) just inside the breach, out of the view of the charging hobgoblins. Have a line of infantry with reach weapons hold position outside the spell area to keep in hobgoblins who get lucky on Tumble checks, with archers to pick off the grappled hobgoblins. If there starts to be too many hobgoblins for the tentacles to contain, throw a Fireball into the mouth of the breach to scare them off long enough for the archers to clear up the mess.

[Aquillion]

Still, the problem is that V did not foresee the breach, and therefore did not have spells available to block it. V was set to help others fight, but not to defend a sudden weak point. Simply put, she had the wrong spells memorized. That is part of the ultimate weakness of the Wizard. A wizards lower castings per day relative to a sorcerer is supposed to be countered by being able to tailor spells to the situation on a daily basis; however, in practice, the Wizard doesn't know what will be faced most days, and so doesn't get the bonus they should.I do feel compelled to point out that the conjuration spells people have suggested are almost all bread-and-butter spells that any wizard is going to memorize every day; unless you fight nothing but flying things outdoors or intangible creatures, say, Wall of Stone is always going to have a use. It isn't that wizards have an "ultimate weakness", it's that V is, for story reasons, deliberately built to be an underpowered wizard so as to preserve dramatic tension.

As far as we can tell, V seems to memorize very little non-blasting spells. Naturally a wizard is going to find themselves without the right spell for the job if they devote 90% of what they have to one (highly limited) thing.

[Kreistor]

But i'm not asking V, we have seen what He/she did, what would you do if you were the same class same situation, but able to prepare spells

As stated, not expect a better result. I see nothing that does more than what V did, that is, buy time on the scale of minutes. Otiluke's R Sphere can buy more time than most.


Your evading the question, if you were a wizard of V's level in that situation with command of the troops, what would you do? Could V, with the right spell selection held the breach?

I have flat out answered that spell; to whit, maybe Stone Shape could, if the breach were small enough. But there is no permanent solution without Conjuration.


I do feel compelled to point out that the conjuration spells people have suggested are almost all bread-and-butter spells that any wizard is going to memorize every day

I have to disagree that Wall of Stone is bread and butter. Mage Armour, Mirror Image, Magic Missile, Fireball -- these are bread and butter. Walls, though, are not memorized every day. You might find a use for a wall every day, but the Wizard(Diviner) that plays in my game doesn't memorize the wall spells at all, preferring teleportations instead. that he loves teleports doesn't make teleports bread and butter for wizards, just B&B for his wizard.

And Wall of Stone is of limited use here, anyway. Unlike Stone Shape, you can't put the rampart back on the wall, just block the gap. So no defenders can defend that position directly. It's also thinner than the original wall, and more prone to being knocked down again. Stone Shape modifies 23 cu ft. V's Wall of Stone is only 3" thick at 65 sq ft, for 16 cu ft. Stone shape builds more wall and can recreate the rampart, and it's lower level for clerics and druids.

[Kreistor]

Cast Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (remember the Chimera?) just inside the breach

As a modified Evard's Black Tentacles, this spell will last 1/round per level. You just held the breach for 78 seconds.

[Chronos]

Stone Shape doesn't create any new stone; it just reshapes stone that's already there. So to close the gap in the wall, you'd have to reshape the existing wall, thinning it. It'd probably be better than nothing, though.

[Ganurath]

Stone Shape doesn't create any new stone; it just reshapes stone that's already there. So to close the gap in the wall, you'd have to reshape the existing wall, thinning it. It'd probably be better than nothing, though.Oh! What are the spikes that come out of the ground angled against the charging enemy called again? A wireframe of slicing blades with a horizontal top to double as a bridge. Any comers will get sliced to bits as getting tangled makes them prone to archer fire, while hypothetical V has ascended stairs (s)he made to show the pressed hobgoblins what a L13 evoker can do.

[Dean Fellithor]

2 words, meteor bombardment, target? Guess!

the city? :biggrin: :thog:

how about we use "enlargement" card and then cast Death Cloud on their socks...

[Kreistor]

Stone Shape doesn't create any new stone; it just reshapes stone that's already there. So to close the gap in the wall, you'd have to reshape the existing wall, thinning it. It'd probably be better than nothing, though.

The broken stone from the creation of the breach is still there. Just use that to fill the hole. Or the cobblestones. I suppose some DM's might require a single casting for every single block, and others may feel that a wall is not a single pice of stone and therefore doesn't qualify as a target at all.

The Giant tends to play a looser game, though. I'd expect him to allow it.

[David Argall]

Why focus on V? There are other people there. V wound up at the breach, but it was not V's job. V went to deal with the Ti Elementals and discovered those at the breach needed help and stayed.


It is not a matter of focus on V. The fault lies with the entire defense. Any competent commander should have reasoned that the city was is his top defensive factor, and one the enemy was going to try to destroy. Accordingly, wall scrolls and mages able to cast such should have been stockpiled. This is simply very basic tactics. And clearly not done.

It is pretty much pure speculation why they didn't. Possibly they simply deemed themeselves the big boy on the block and didn't see the need to prepare a defense. 10,000 gp in wall spells sitting in a vault could finance a really big coronation celebration instead. And Soon did have something of an anti-magic attitude. So maybe he and the paladins were actively hostile to having even sensible magic defenses. Real-world paladins have been known to scorn useful tools for reasons of honor, so the story ones may have been as foolish.

[Saph]

Your evading the question, if you were a wizard of V's level in that situation with command of the troops, what would you do?

I'll take a shot at it, since I play a wizard of around V's level and this was something I was thinking about in case I ever had to do something like that. The wizard I play is an enchanter with evocation and necromancy banned, so some of the things I'd do wouldn't work for V, but the basic ideas should be the same.

Here are a mixture of tactics. Some of these require Conjuration, some don't. Which one I'd use at any given time would depend on how they're attacking - is it a full charge, or just a few skirmishers?

Web - The cheap option at only level 2. 20-foot radius means 40 feet wide at the maximum point, which should cover the breach completely. Let the soldiers stab the hobgobs who make it out the other side. Eventually they'll figure out to burn it, or dispel it, and at that point you move onto the next option.

Wall of Fire - Level 4, and blocks the breach quite effectively. This spell has a duration of concentration + 1 round/level. So, in theory, as long as you keep concentrating, you can keep it up pretty much forever. Eventually they'll figure out a way to get round this one too. However:

If you want to be nasty (and effective) about it, the way to use these two spells isn't to cast them to keep the hobgoblins out - it's to cast them to keep them in. Pull the soldiers back and let the hobgoblins advance into the breach, let about 20 or 30 get in, THEN drop the Wall of Fire. Then order the soldiers to advance, and drive the hobgoblins who are inside into the flames. After you do this a couple of times, the attackers are going to start getting really reluctant about advancing.

Eventually the Wall of Fire tactic will fail somehow, and it's time to move on to the next one.

Move Earth - Level 6. If you can't make the wall higher, make the earth lower. Cast this on the earth just before the wall. Dig a 10-foot trench and pile the earth into the breach. This'll take a good few minutes, but you don't need to concentrate to maintain the spell. Once this is finished, you'll have a trench and a rampart, effectively giving you a 15-foot wall or so. If the hobgoblins try to charge you before the earth finishes moving, drop another Web or Wall of Fire. Combine with:

Obscuring Mist (Level 1) or Darkness (Level 2). Ever tried to charge across broken ground when you can't see? It's not easy. Even less easy when there's rubble and a big trench in the way.

Fireball - Level 3. By this point the hobgoblins will probably have started bringing up clerics to try to dispel or get around your effects. Fry them. Clerics have a bad Reflex save and your Fireballs do an average of 35 damage, so you should be able to get several in one shot. If you see some clerics and/or commanders that look too tough to kill with a single Fireball, then use:

Confusion - Level 4. Send their command squad insane. Should make a mess of their plans.

And if you ever get in really serious trouble and need them to be kept out:

Wall of Stone - Level 5. Should do the job. Unfortunately, V's banned Conjuration. However, there's still:

Shadow Conjuration - Level 7. Who cares if you've banned Conjuration? Make yourself a Wall of Stone anyway. That'll fill the gap for a while. It's only 60% real, but that's enough to hold off Level 1 warriors who are very unlikely to make their Will save to disbelieve.

I wouldn't be able to hold out forever - but I wouldn't have to. I'd just need to hold out long enough to get reinforcements.

Unfortunately, they'd get reinforcements too, namely, Redcloak. And this is where it goes from "difficult" to "just plain impossible". Hold off some ghouls, a few spellcasters, and several thousand hobgoblins? Hard, but doable. Hold off some ghouls, a few spellcasters, several thousand hobgoblins, and a 15th-16th level cleric on a giant mammoth? Not going to happen.

So if I hadn't been reinforced by then, that's where I'd have to withdraw. Depressing, but that's the kind of thing that happens in battles.

- Saph

[factotum]

I think it has to be said that SOMEBODY among the Azure City commanders (or the OotS, for that matter) should have anticipated that the hobgoblins would breach the wall and have some means of dealing with it. However, while Azure City had a small advantage in casters over the hobgoblin army, we mustn't forget that the enemy does have casters of their own--a single targeted dispel magic would handily deal with that Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, for example, while a True Seeing would dispose of any illusions that could act as a defence.

Given that, the only way to permanently seal that breach would be to use something permanent that couldn't be dispelled, such as a Wall of Iron. The Stone Shape idea would also work, but as already pointed out, the amount of stone you can move using the spell is limited and so it would probably take several castings to create a reasonable barrier.

[Castamir]

You're trying to put a square peg in a round hole, and blaming the peg for not fitting.Bah... 18 INT is overrated. Try to put that peg into the hole with 18 STR, and it will fit.

[Yeril]

14 frenzied beserkers, cast featherfall, and launch them into battle.

once they land they can great cleave 15 or so hobgoblins a hit with supreme cleave, factorise deathless frenzy into that and youve got 14 creatures who are nigh immortal until everything is dead, course deathless frenzy only lasts about 6 or 7 rounds but extend rage and some other choice feats can bring this up ro a 2-3 minute duration.



But if I was a wizard? I dont know my spell list that well so Id probaly have troops with highest ac, such as tower shield wielding swordsmen up front taking full cover until hobos get close enough, spread out so a convenient fireball in the middle would incinrate all the hobgoblins but not harm the troops.

but until then set up a wall of fire and concentrate for aslong until your needed.

I dont know if this is on a wizards spell list but if I had alittle time to prepare, spike stones. very long duration and very effective.
would last 13 hours, size of about 260x260 square feet. anyone who passes over it takes 1d8 damage per 5ft moved and has to make a reflex save or halve their base speed. whats that? 400 hobgoblins just charged 60ft towards us? 12d8 damage to each of them with no reflex save to resist damage. I wonder if redcloak is going to spend time casting levitate on all his troops. even redcloaks mammoth would take about 200 damage from marching over it all, making it dead half way through or supple enough for 1st levels to stick a spear in it.

at the sight of recloak approaching and me being on low spells Id use whatever ive got to slow them down, wall of fire, wall of ice, illusionary terrain, ect. and have all the troops retreat to the castle thingy.

preety much as effective as renewable landmines.

Then fireball all clerics. Magic missile all hobgoblins. tentacle all chimara's.

[doliemaster]

I have a simple strategy, wall of force, permancy, Greater Geas on Titanium elementals. That would have won the battle.

[Baalzebub]

I think everyone is forgetting about the Invisible Dragon Riding Epic Lich :xykon: and the supreme goblin cleric :redcloak:.

[chibibar]

I personally would learn chrono magic and get MacGuyver here... give him a ball of string and some paper clips and we're golden :)

the thing is that there are non-magical way to do things also. V is intelligent but not good with tactics probably (most mages are quest for power not field tactics usually IMO)

You could use move earth to make a trench and fill it with oil and light it on fire :) that will keep it going (water is on the other side) it is non magical and hard to get pass without getting burn.

Evan's tentacle would work inside the wall if any hobgoblin get pass. The main problem is that if a player/character (like V's case) who don't have the field battle experience, will generally memorize spells that they think they might need or will use per smaller campaign.

[Kreistor]

It is pretty much pure speculation why they didn't. Possibly they simply deemed themeselves the big boy on the block and didn't see the need to prepare a defense.

Considering the use of Ti Elementals was unexpected, I think they simply didn't think a breach could be made that quickly. Late period siege engines could do some serious damage, but they never matched a Cannon for taking down walls. Hinjo expected a siege engine vs. siege engine battle on day one.

The only reason for that would be that something like this has never been done before. Frankly, I find that brutally unlikely. There are simply too many ways to make a breach for that not to have been foreseen as possible. It should have been handled without the OotS's involvement.

[chibibar]

Considering the use of Ti Elementals was unexpected, I think they simply didn't think a breach could be made that quickly. Late period siege engines could do some serious damage, but they never matched a Cannon for taking down walls. Hinjo expected a siege engine vs. siege engine battle on day one.

The only reason for that would be that something like this has never been done before. Frankly, I find that brutally unlikely. There are simply too many ways to make a breach for that not to have been foreseen as possible. It should have been handled without the OotS's involvement.

That is the problem with magic. Under normal combat scenario, there are ways to keep the defenses and repel the enemies. All the greatest battle tactical mind in the world (even Sun Tsu) can't think of possibility vs magic. I mean in theory you could have a part of eight high level magical warriors vs a castle and the castle can lose depending on what items/spells/class the group is. :)

A single mage can wreck havoc and really turn a battle.

[EvilElitest]

As stated, not expect a better result. I see nothing that does more than what V did, that is, buy time on the scale of minutes. Otiluke's R Sphere can buy more time than most.

So you think, that if you were in V's place, you would have done no better. You can think of nothing that could have turned the tide righ their if you were V



I have flat out answered that spell; to whit, maybe Stone Shape could, if the breach were small enough. But there is no permanent solution without Conjuration.



Not asking you to win, I'm asking you to do better to V, or to hold until renforcements arrive


Now i don't have my PHB so i'm not sure, but if i was facing Redcloak's charging army, i'd cast confusion in the front ranks behind redcloak, followed by a fear and a disergration on Redcloak's mount. I'm going to presume that I have three rounds until they come
Round 0 (We have just defeated the last ghouls) I send a few runners, on to go to Elan Haley Hinjo and Durkon (and also to yell down to Belkar) to tell them a set of instructions that i have written down (apperently writting is a free action in OOTs), i send a runner to O-Chul telling him to get his force here as fast as possible using mounts, send a runner for the reinforcements to get here faster, and send a runner to the clerics telling them we need their spells now. Then i'd order my soilders to make bottle neck around the barrier. Horray speaking is a free action. Then would ether cast message to Belkar if i know where he is to get to the opening as fast as possible, or i'd cast magic armor (I've already cast protection from arrows, so sweet) or maybe some minor group buff. (Of course, prior to this i've already put a exploding runes spell somewhere useful)
Round 1, we see the enemies coming, i cast confusion right behind Redcloak. Bear in mind they are chargin rapidly and so it will be even more chaotic and generally screw up the charge in that area, as some hobs will be retreat, some will be trying to wander away (to be trampled by the others) and some will be attacking eachother. As it is a charge, i think the only clerics who could think fast enough would be RedCloak or his blue cloaked friend, who would have to stop to cast the spell, or keep chargin with chaos in the ranks behind. All my soilders open fire at the hobs. I also use my free action to tell the deserters that the gods have given me mighty magic to stop the attack. I'm going to presume that Haley can shoot at this point and as she shoots three shots per round that helps a tad bit, Elan with sing a bard song to make my guys better
Round 2, If RedCloak stops to dispel, i'd cast confusion again this time at the hobs who have charged past him when he stopped causing even more chaos. If he keeps up hte charge, i'd cast fear in the middle of the hoard. It is bad for moral when some hobs are desperately trying to run away, and getting trampled, right after the chaos. It would be even better if Belkar showed up, but i think he wouldn't be here yet, nether would durkon, but Hinjo might get here with his mount, if not then next round
Round 3. If RedCloak stopped to dispel again, i'd cast confusion again (if i cast fear) or fear (If i casted confusion twice) to piss keep him from coming next round as he would have to keep hte charge together. If he ignored his guys and kept going, i'd cast disenergrate on his mount (As i wouldn't have cast one on the death knight) and make Redcloak fall, thus being (Hopefully) trampled by his own men, also disrupting any spell he has prepared. That would also buy me one more round of time. At this point i'd think Hinjo would Show up and start turning undead, my archers are still doing damage, i hope haley is aiming for the clerics, Elan is singing, and Durkon is one his way). Also, I'd think belkar would be here by now, as he would be trying to get to the hobs for more victoms and would hopefully stab, then fireball (The Eye of fear and flame has its own attack) thus doing lots of damage.
Extra Round, Fireball just to destroy moral
from,
EE

[Fitzclowningham]

I wonder how V could cast Evan's Tentacles of Forced Intrusion - it's conjuration, isn't it?

[Kreistor]

That is the problem with magic. Under normal combat scenario, there are ways to keep the defenses and repel the enemies. All the greatest battle tactical mind in the world (even Sun Tsu) can't think of possibility vs magic. I mean in theory you could have a part of eight high level magical warriors vs a castle and the castle can lose depending on what items/spells/class the group is. :)

A single mage can wreck havoc and really turn a battle.

You don't want me as your DM. If you came at my castles with that attitude, you'd find yourself squashed fast.

Your above assumptions are true only if the enemy is not knowledge in magic. Given that the Sapphire Guard had a force of Diviners, they most certainly did have magical knowledge, and therefore could glean from that knowledge methods that are combat effective.

Sun Tsu couldn't think of how to counter magic, because there was no magic to counter and he didn't have magicians on his own side. Had they existed, he would have made them a priority for commanders. He's not going to write about something that doesn't exist.

[Kreistor]

I wonder how V could cast Evan's Tentacles of Forced Intrusion - it's conjuration, isn't it?

Black Tentacles is. It's a homebrew, so maybe the Giant made it transformation or Evocation.


So you think, that if you were in V's place, you would have done no better. You can think of nothing that could have turned the tide righ their if you were V

If I prepared for that and only that? I have no doubt I would hold it longer, but I couldn't influence the long term result any more than V did.


Now i don't have my PHB so i'm not sure, but if i was facing Redcloak's charging army, i'd cast confusion in the front ranks behind redcloak, followed by a fear and a disergration on Redcloak's mount. I'm going to presume that I have three rounds until they come

You already lost then. By retaining spells until Redcloak's charge, you allowed the breach to be taken earlier in the day. V was out of magic when Hinjo charged, all cast to hold the breach. By not casting your spells earlier, you are relying on the defnders to hold the breach for you, which means there are either far fewer of them, or the enemy established their foothold inside the breach.

Confusion is rnd/level, so each casting holds them off for 78 seconds. It's less effective than Fireball since the unconfused can Grapple or Disarm the Confused individuals in order to make them combat ineffective. Only 1/3rd of the COnfused on any particular round will attack allies to cause damage, so they aren't going to rip the heart out of the charge behind them. With that horde, they'd just trample over the affected hobs anyway.

[Saph]

Like I said - you save Confusion for the command squads. Don't waste it on mooks, use it to send their leaders crazy. Use Web/Wall of Fire or Move Earth + vision-blockers to deal with the hordes.

If they're doing a full head-on charge, pull back 30 feet or so, then cast a Wall of Fire in the breach just as they're crossing through it. Should make quite a mess if they've gotten up to full speed. First three ranks are cut off inside the walls, next three ranks are incinerated, next three ranks run into the wall before they can stop, and X many ranks behind get trampled as they frantically try to slow down.

- Saph

[marquiz]

Our task is to slow down and immobilize opponents, repair the breach and give time for our troops to destroy enemy troops.

Our supplies are, V, a wizard 13, with conjuration and necromancy barred. also a few LG folks. Coconut oil. Azure city troops. breached wall.

A Forcecube spell, when used with bars option, is both invisible and covers a 20' cube area, for a duration of 2 hours per level. There is nothing more annoying than charging through a breach and then suddenly getting stopped by something... uh... what the? coconut oil? eek the cholestrol. heh... so that covers our level 7 spell which can potentially be countered by our main nemesis only to the best of our knowledge. can red cloak cast disintegrate?

Even if the 20 cube blocker doesnt cover the entire breach it will reduce the amount of critters that can pass through. at least until the number of corpses fill a ramp high enough as we saw. at which point, the transmute rock to mud spell, perhaps combined with move earth spell can make the land hostile... very hostile against the attackers. Not to mention transmute mud to rock which will a) turn the terrain solid, b) cause the half buried hobgoblins become obstacled terrain, thus disabling charges and slowing movement, third, allowing us to use our next spell.

Using stone shape spell to form stone spikes on the newly formed floor would give some decent damage against the hobgoblins too, not to mention it can possibly be used in a limited manner of wall repair.

Then again a bit of exp sacrifice and permanencied wall of force would do wonders too. remember what I said about invisible walls?

A symbol of persuasion would be useful also, but until the lucky dispel comes along.

These assume we are limited by V's schools of course, if we are not, rules of engagement change a bit. But those are not our arguments I guess. Still enhancing the troopers was a good idea.

[Nightgaunt]

Nice thought question, by the way. I decided to use only SRD material, I have to assume non-srd is not used because of the nature of the world (recalling lawyer issues)
____

Symbol of Sleep would have been an excellent option... Were it not for the lofty material component requirements. In addition if the rules allow "bouncy ball" symbols then the spell should be placed on a movable object, like the Shield of some no-name to bring out and hide again.

Guards and Wards is a lovely option (due to size and duration), but with a 30 minute casting time it would have been cast prior to knowledge of the location of breech. Making it slightly less useful. It does cover a good distance, but without knowing the absolute size of the city I would guess it would only have been mildly helpful.

Transmute Rock to Mud directly outside of the breech would have been a strong move. The Gobbos could only move 5 feet a round, and the effect is permanent. 2 10ft./cubes a level is a reasonable size too. Of course I have no way of knowing if it was Rock they were running on...

Wall of Fire: It has been mentioned before but this could have effectively stopped the breach. The down side is because the duration is Concentration it puts V out of the battle to maintain the spell. A Permanent Wall of Fire could have done this too, but the XP cost is too high. As a PC I would be loathe to do that.

I have to admit in this battle lack of Conjuration and lack of Necromancy is difficult. Just having Control Undead would have been terrific. Access to Planar Binding before the battle would have been phenomenal. A few celestial creatures to help defend azure city would have helped in turning the tide...

-just some thoughts.

[EvilElitest]

1. Your double posting



If I prepared for that and only that? I have no doubt I would hold it longer, but I couldn't influence the long term result any more than V did.

Yes, if the question was if you prepared for that and only that, what would you do?



You already lost then. By retaining spells until Redcloak's charge, you allowed the breach to be taken earlier in the day. V was out of magic when Hinjo charged, all cast to hold the breach. By not casting your spells earlier, you are relying on the defnders to hold the breach for you, which means there are either far fewer of them, or the enemy established their foothold inside the breach.
1. Assuming here
2. I would have used different spells when holding hte breach earlier


Confusion is rnd/level, so each casting holds them off for 78 seconds. It's less effective than Fireball since the unconfused can Grapple or Disarm the Confused individuals in order to make them combat ineffective. Only 1/3rd of the COnfused on any particular round will attack allies to cause damage, so they aren't going to rip the heart out of the charge behind them. With that horde, they'd just trample over the affected hobs anyway.

I think you miss my point, my point is to cause chaos in the hoard itself. When Hobs start attacking eachother, random hobs will not bother to grappel or disarme they will kill their own guys or be killed by hte confused. As they are all hobs, the will have trouble figuring out who is confused and who isn't. If i destroy the charge, i can hold them off long enough for men from the wall to get into the breach, or Belkar to show up there. Also Hobs will be wandering in the wrong direction (bumping into their friends, ect) retreating (Moral issues), or getting trampled, and that just makes the charge falter. It is even worst because it is located in the center of the Hob army, so the people on the out side can't help and it is hard to figure out the problem. My goals it to cause chaos and make hte hobgoblin orginization fall apart, hence fear and confusion
Now for part two
After four rounds (I bought one more round i hope) i will then order my men, along with Hinjo to make a spear wall and bottle neck the hobs, while my archers shoot. General Chan is most likely dead, but if he is somehow alive he will then join in the fight, along with Durkon using Thor's might, and Belkar who is fire balling, fearing, and stabbing. Now about Belkar's skull.

I know i shoots one fireball every three rounds, and fear once a round, can it shoot fireball and fear? Because if it can, I will intruct Belkar (talking is a free action) to shoot Redcloack and hobs near him with fireball, while fearing hte mops in the rear. As we know, moral crumbles when some guys are running, more so when fire is flying. I then use The spiked Tenticals of forces intrusion on the head hobgobline cleric, because that would really hurt moral, then spend the rest as fireballs and lighting bolts, until i get to level 1, where i use Magic Missels on every ghasts or wounded clerics, and then spend all my level zero's using acid splash or ray of frost on the zombies (acid splash) or weak hobs. Then i will use a melf's acid arrow instead of an invisiblity on a random hob cleric, and then run like hell, hoping that Durkon could have taken over by then
from,
EE

[chibibar]

You don't want me as your DM. If you came at my castles with that attitude, you'd find yourself squashed fast.

Your above assumptions are true only if the enemy is not knowledge in magic. Given that the Sapphire Guard had a force of Diviners, they most certainly did have magical knowledge, and therefore could glean from that knowledge methods that are combat effective.

Sun Tsu couldn't think of how to counter magic, because there was no magic to counter and he didn't have magicians on his own side. Had they existed, he would have made them a priority for commanders. He's not going to write about something that doesn't exist.

True... but if I were to bring eight level 20 epic characters... it would be hard to squash me flat in AC setting (at least the current defense and situation)

now under normal circumstances you are right about Sun Tze and tactics.... but that is the problem.. Magic doesn't flow here in our world and thus only our imagination fuels it so it would be hard to see what it can/cannot do. Any given players (even in this thread) given us different situation of what they would do with magic and without.

I would personally think that if you had 4 Xykon riding dragons and 4 Redcloak coming at you in AC setting.... yea.... they could crush the defender pretty easily.

Now of course this exempts from more powerful cities where you may have epic characters as defenders like in Lodoss Wars... then it would be a different story.

[Tokiko Mima]

If I were an elf evoker with the same schools banned as V, the spell I would use would be Whirlwind of Teeth, an Evocation spell that creates 70' (5'/level) cylinder of whirling teeth that deals 7d8 (1d8 per 2 levels) damage a round for anything in it, quickly slaying any hobgoblins that try to pass through the gap.

Basically a Cloudkill for the Evocation school.

[EyethatBinds]

I would've had a much stronger grasp of tactics. First problem is the party split up to deal with threats of an inconsequential nature, first Xykon was attempting to reach the throne room to capture the gate, and he should have been ignored. The gate would take a great deal of time to control and so plays no factor in the battle itself and animating the dead wouldn't have helped much since Soon could have taken Xykon out while he was alone without problem.
The next issue is the focus on stopping the main force of the army, this is not an adventurer's job. The team should have been sent out to kill the commanders using wind walk to get past the army and invisibility sphere to avoid the arrows. Throwing a wind wall or two at the walls would stop several casualties by blocking any incoming arrows, but let's focus on killing Redcloak.
While he is a powerful spellcaster and a few levels higher than the Order he would have been a tough fight but I'm convinced that 6 13th level characters could handle an unarmored cleric by simply keeping him injured. The Hueceva would be easy for Durkon to turn and the MitD could be taken down with two castings of Ray of Stupidity [maybe three], leaving Redcloak's only recourse to call his higher levels soldiers to his aid pulling them away from the city. The elementals should have been taken care of by the city, particularly by Sangwaan. A cleric that can cast True seeing should be able to shut down a small amount of elementals without even trying.
So the war could have been won without much issue by a well organized party with a good grasp of tactics, but that wouldn't have been as amusing. So I guess I would have kept the group together, organized, and focussing on taking out the leaders.

[chibibar]

I would've had a much stronger grasp of tactics. First problem is the party split up to deal with threats of an inconsequential nature, first Xykon was attempting to reach the throne room to capture the gate, and he should have been ignored. The gate would take a great deal of time to control and so plays no factor in the battle itself and animating the dead wouldn't have helped much since Soon could have taken Xykon out while he was alone without problem.
The next issue is the focus on stopping the main force of the army, this is not an adventurer's job. The team should have been sent out to kill the commanders using wind walk to get past the army and invisibility sphere to avoid the arrows. Throwing a wind wall or two at the walls would stop several casualties by blocking any incoming arrows, but let's focus on killing Redcloak.
While he is a powerful spellcaster and a few levels higher than the Order he would have been a tough fight but I'm convinced that 6 13th level characters could handle an unarmored cleric by simply keeping him injured. The Hueceva would be easy for Durkon to turn and the MitD could be taken down with two castings of Ray of Stupidity [maybe three], leaving Redcloak's only recourse to call his higher levels soldiers to his aid pulling them away from the city. The elementals should have been taken care of by the city, particularly by Sangwaan. A cleric that can cast True seeing should be able to shut down a small amount of elementals without even trying.
So the war could have been won without much issue by a well organized party with a good grasp of tactics, but that wouldn't have been as amusing. So I guess I would have kept the group together, organized, and focussing on taking out the leaders.

basically kinda like Dynasty Warriors tactics :) take out the leaders.

[Poppatomus]

I would've had a much stronger grasp of tactics. First problem is the party split up to deal with threats of an inconsequential nature, first Xykon was attempting to reach the throne room to capture the gate, and he should have been ignored. The gate would take a great deal of time to control and so plays no factor in the battle itself and animating the dead wouldn't have helped much since Soon could have taken Xykon out while he was alone without problem.
The next issue is the focus on stopping the main force of the army, this is not an adventurer's job. The team should have been sent out to kill the commanders using wind walk to get past the army and invisibility sphere to avoid the arrows. Throwing a wind wall or two at the walls would stop several casualties by blocking any incoming arrows, but let's focus on killing Redcloak.
While he is a powerful spellcaster and a few levels higher than the Order he would have been a tough fight but I'm convinced that 6 13th level characters could handle an unarmored cleric by simply keeping him injured. The Hueceva would be easy for Durkon to turn and the MitD could be taken down with two castings of Ray of Stupidity [maybe three], leaving Redcloak's only recourse to call his higher levels soldiers to his aid pulling them away from the city. The elementals should have been taken care of by the city, particularly by Sangwaan. A cleric that can cast True seeing should be able to shut down a small amount of elementals without even trying.
So the war could have been won without much issue by a well organized party with a good grasp of tactics, but that wouldn't have been as amusing. So I guess I would have kept the group together, organized, and focussing on taking out the leaders.

How exactly would killing the leaders have turned the tides of battle in this case? Assuming that you plan wouldn't prevent the wall from being breached in the first place, logical enough, than all you've done is reduced the organization of the Hobgoblin side by a modest amount. Not even that much, since the leadership was mostly just pointing the units in a particular direction, rather than doing much "leading." If anything, fractured leadership would have led the city to fall faster, since the obvious plan is not, move around and attack random points on the wall but rather, head into the damn breech.

Now, its possible that the hobgoblins, upon hearing RC was dead would have picked a new Supreme leader and left, but we have no reason to think that's the case once the battle was joined. Even if true, the C2 system was clearly fairly basic, involving runners and the like, so it may have taken time for the Hobs to even realize that RC had been killed to begin with.

Even beyond that, you are taking a terrible risk. Remember, this is what you would have done to protect the city, not knowing what was coming. While small group targeting leadership may have proven effecctive given what happened what if Xykon had decided to stay with the main force on that dragon, laying in invisible wait for the party to show up? Now all the heroes are conviniently concentrated for maximum efficiency in destroying them. What if RC saved the elementals for his own protection, and just used normal seigeworks and his vast advantage in numbers to break down the cities fortifications (or xykon's magic for that matter?)

[pjackson]

first Xykon was attempting to reach the throne room to capture the gate



So I guess I would have kept the group together, organized, and focussing on taking out the leaders.

There is a bit of a contradiction there.
Xykon was the only leader the OotS knew about (unless Miko mentioned meeting Redcloak, but I doubt that).
The OotS were supposed to be focused on taking him out.
They certainly did not know he was aiming for the throne room. The location of the gate is secret, and the room is protected against scrying.

[chibibar]

The OoTS knew about RedCloak :) he was there!

[Chronos]

Quoth Saph:
Move Earth - Level 6. If you can't make the wall higher, make the earth lower. Cast this on the earth just before the wall. Dig a 10-foot trench and pile the earth into the breach. This'll take a good few minutes, but you don't need to concentrate to maintain the spell. Once this is finished, you'll have a trench and a rampart, effectively giving you a 15-foot wall or so. If the hobgoblins try to charge you before the earth finishes moving, drop another Web or Wall of Fire. Combine with:Good thinking, but I think you misread the description of Move Earth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/moveEarth.htm). It's not a 1 action casting time which takes tens of minutes to take effect; it's a tens of minutes casting time. So you can't cast any other spells while the earth is moving. Move Earth is a great spell for use before a battle, but during a battle, there just isn't any time for it.

[EvilElitest]

basically kinda like Dynasty Warriors tactics :) take out the leaders.

I thought the tatic in Dynasty Warriors is to use your powers of being super human to kill anything that moves.
from,
EE

[Lavidor]

Me? Well, first and foremost I would, before the battle, meet with all the commanders for the purpose of being able to use sending at them. I would definetly prepare (and cast) greater invisibility and extendedoverland flight, because of natural cowardice. I would fly and throw evocations at the hobgoblins and buff up the soldiers before the army charged, then when they charged, use sending to relay a message to get out of the courtyard, fire catapaults into it (to make it hard to charge across), get the archers (and single-target spells) to take out targets of oppurtunity, then either AoE's or Wall of Fire.

[Havael]

Assuming V had many disintegrate spells prepared, I'd use them to create a trench before the wall...

[kirbsys]

Super size the general and other people who have real class levels instead of the first level warrior chumps.

[doliemaster]

On second thought, I would have made alot of scrolls and wands before hand, I mean screw the exp you lose imagine the exp for Azure city being saved! Also the loot-I mean without you they is gone. The only problem with my idea is that it ends in V losing a couple levels- by having him have a permancy wall of force and making enough scrolls or wands for him to cover half of the Azure wall, which would double the amount of troops to put on the un-walled side. Then just watch the archers shoot and fling a couple fireballs-there you win without going down to level-7. Or as the guy above me said, except have Durkon use Thors might, and then mass enlarge the order- as you now have a group of giant level 13s.

[Kreistor]

Yes, if the question was if you prepared for that and only that, what would you do?

As stated, have someone else with better spells for that problem deal with it.


1. Assuming here
2. I would have used different spells when holding hte breach earlier

You're the one that seems to be so pedantic about my solutions (which were all geared at holding the breach from the moment it was made, not from the time of Red's charge). To get to dealing with Red's charge, you must first survive to see it with spells intact. Solve the first problem before assuming you get to solve the second.


I think you miss my point, my point is to cause chaos in the hoard itself.

Such a decision is made by the DM, not the player. Confusion only has effect on the individuals it hits. It is up to the DM whether it causes any delays for the other hobgoblins, which may choose simply to ignore the affected individuals, soaking up a few hits along the way, but mostly coming through uninjured. With Redcloak at the front, who presumably has Spellcraft, he can identify the spell and call out orders to just rush past.


When Hobs start attacking eachother, random hobs will not bother to grappel or disarme they will kill their own guys or be killed by hte confused.

It is established that there are clerics and other casters scattered through the horde, who are capable of identifying the problem and calling orders to the officers on what to do about it. They are, after all, charging for the gate with singlemindedness. Flat ignoring these individuals is a reasonable response for someone focused like that.


As they are all hobs, the will have trouble figuring out who is confused and who isn't.

The ones standing around drooling are pretty obvious, as are the ones fleeing.


If i destroy the charge, i can hold them off long enough for men from the wall to get into the breach, or Belkar to show up there.

You saw what happened when the hobs faced organized resistance. If you think a few random hobs attacking their allies will slow such a mass of men and material you really need to reread the charge through the breach comic. They got rolled over. Men have momentum, and it's forced by the men in the back that can't see what's happening up front. They will quite literally not have a clue and trample anything that is in their way.


Also Hobs will be wandering in the wrong direction (bumping into their friends, ect) retreating (Moral issues), or getting trampled, and that just makes the charge falter.

Again, that's a DM's decision. This is essentially a big riot, and when a riot moves in one direction, it typically ignores anything not going with it, trampling it into mush.


It is even worst because it is located in the center of the Hob army, so the people on the out side can't help and it is hard to figure out the problem. My goals it to cause chaos and make hte hobgoblin orginization fall apart, hence fear and confusion

So what? The guys behind can't see what's happening, and simply charge through it without noticing, or trampling the problem under. All you're doing is creating a blip in the ranks.

More likely, any sergeant that sees a hobgoblin retreating or fighting his allies will simply call him a deserter and run him through, ordering everyone to keep charging.


After four rounds (I bought one more round i hope) i will then order my men, along with Hinjo to make a spear wall and bottle neck the hobs, while my archers shoot.

You can ready an action to attack the first hobgoblin to approach. Yay, you. Maybe you kill one. You get an AoO to attack when the next one (or the survivor) Overruns you. Then the next rank OVerruns you. Then the next. Then the next. The Giant's defenders were trampled under legally. The hobs used Overrun (and maybe Bull Rush) rules to plow through the breach, and your Spear Wall would be no more effective against those numbers. Your archers, if aimed at the breach, have a chance of hitting their allies, so if there are any numbers of them, you'll be killing your own defenders.


General Chan is most likely dead, but if he is somehow alive he will then join in the fight, along with Durkon using Thor's might, and Belkar who is fire balling, fearing, and stabbing. Now about Belkar's skull.

I thought you were limiting to V's only. You just justified me using Durkon to rebuild the breach (instead of relying on V) by using him yourself. Even turning to Belkar allows me to use anyone I want instead of V.


True... but if I were to bring eight level 20 epic characters... it would be hard to squash me flat in AC setting (at least the current defense and situation)

Uhm... if you're attacking a castle with epic characters, expect epic defenses from my defenders. A castle of plain jane L1 humans is no threat, so you're going to be looking at a castle of some weird race on one of the outer planes, or something like that. Why would I write an encounter of so low challenge into my story?


Magic doesn't flow here in our world and thus only our imagination fuels it so it would be hard to see what it can/cannot do. Any given players (even in this thread) given us different situation of what they would do with magic and without.

I've seen players splat against even a wooden barricade, trying to use magic to punch through, instead of being smart and using subtlety. Players aren't inherently able to put together useful magical aolutions.

In the end, it comes down to the world. If my world had a Sun Tzu, then my Sun Tzu wrote on magic, and so commanders studying him will know how to utilize magic intelligently. I run an Eberron campaign, where magic was used by all sides. There is no justification for a fortress to lack defenses against magic after 100 years of that.


I would personally think that if you had 4 Xykon riding dragons and 4 Redcloak coming at you in AC setting.... yea.... they could crush the defender pretty easily.

In this case, it was NPC vs. NPC. That's an entirely different matter. A DM doesn't play by all the rules in such situations, since one has limited time. One writes the story as one sees fit, and then modifies the results based on PC action. In this case, the PC's had no influence on the battle because they wasted themselves. Roy attacked Xykon 1-1, which meant he had no effect on the battle. V held the breach a while, but V was not designed for that job and so did it poorly. The others simply held the walls and did nothing dangerous to themselves, except for Belkar who killed lots of hobs alone, but being limited to outside the walls he couldn't slow the advance. Net result: the written story proceeds apace.


Now of course this exempts from more powerful cities where you may have epic characters as defenders like in Lodoss Wars... then it would be a different story.

Which is, in the end, what happens to PC's. It's all about EL vs. CR. With limited play time, you don't waste time having PC's attack easy targets. You need to maintain the challenge, and so the castle has to have challenging defenders. By assuming the defenders are not challenging, you will die, or at least suffer a major loss to teach you respect.

[Chronos]

Super size the general and other people who have real class levels instead of the first level warrior chumps.In other words, exactly what V did, except that V didn't take the general out of the chain of command where he was useful to waste time killing individual hobs. All of the troops e enlarged were at least fifth level (plus more, from the Potions of Heroism).

On the other hand, I like Havael's idea of disintegrating a trench. Not only do we know that e has that spell in es spellbook, but we even know that e had it prepared at least twice.

doliemaster, you can't spend enough xp on a scroll or spell that you go down a level. And V is inferred to have levelled up relatively recently, so e probably didn't have much xp available for that purpose at the time.

[RyQ_TMC]

I'd call 911. Easy as that.

There is no actual WAY you'd be able to hold a breach against such a massive force, EVEN as a high-level d20 character. All I'm saying.

And yes, we all heard of Thermopylae, at least some of us saw "300". Still, I stick to my original answer.

[Deuce]

Coat the area in front of the breach with coconut oil. Should function like a more-or-less permenant Grease spell. As the main charge starts - cast Flame Arrow on a brace of arrows and light the oil as the first wave slips through it. Keep dumping/lobbing fresh oil on the blaze as long as the supply holds out. Toss wood debris on to keep fire going longer/hotter.

[Snipers_Promise]

The Stone wall idea sounds like the most likely. Mabye cloudkill would also work. However, if not constrained by levels, Vengeful gaze of god, page 87 epic level handbook. I would also try acid rain. Or earthquake.

[basilisk 89]

Wait...are we Chang or V?

If Chang...

I'd have the wizard enhance my soldiers as best as possible, then have him/her repair the wall, then booby trap it. After that, I'd have said wizard act on his/her own accord.

If V...

I'd fix the wall, enhance the soldiers, leave the warriors with some healing potions then jump on the wall and meteor shower the goblins to death.

[BisectedBrioche]

I would try and create a spell (or several) which gave me a huge charisma bonus and bluff them all: "Azure City? No, this is Cobalt City. Try Kanto"

[Snipers_Promise]

This is not the nation your looking for.....

[EvilElitest]

As stated, have someone else with better spells for that problem deal with it.

Yes we know that, but that evade's the point of the question. Anyone would want to have a person better suited, that is not the question, the question is what you would if you were V. We already know that a person with conjuring spells is better suited, that is not thw question at the moment



You're the one that seems to be so pedantic about my solutions (which were all geared at holding the breach from the moment it was made, not from the time of Red's charge). To get to dealing with Red's charge, you must first survive to see it with spells intact. Solve the first problem before assuming you get to solve the second.
In reality i was assuming Red's charge out of context, but ok i'll do it in context
1. After the giant soilders start attacking the hobs, i order those men who are standing behind to shoot arrows over their heads into the on coming hoard
2. Burn the body pile to pervent them from climbing over it,
3. Have a sheild wall right behind the giant soilders to cut off any enemies from entering the breach easilty (won't stop the death knight but will hold off ghouls
4. Do the runner idea i mentioned earlier in my other post to get reninforcements here from OOTS, clerics and paladins
5. Use all spells slots other than the ones i mentioned above on the hoard, mostly fireballs
6. order all those clerics, the low level ones and the high levels who i asked for plus Durkon to turn undead to hold off the massive hoard
7. Get some dude to find me some more scroll in that libery, get anything
8. Have Thor's might appear in the breach and start the smash
9. Don't disnergrate the Death knight, aim for his horse and save the second one for later (later to be used on RedCloak's mount
10. Have the paladin's deal with it, but tell the random soilder NOT TO CROWD AROUND IT DAMN IT, instead have them and general Chang hold the breach
12. When Roy's dragon kills it, have the paldins attack the breach
13. have the soilder's on the wall directly next to the breach start droping spears and shooting arrows from above, along with any big rocks
14. Send a runner to aim the catapults at the hoard near the wall (Not very near mind you, just at the rear of the hoard to pick off some guys
15. Extra guys fight on the wall




Such a decision is made by the DM, not the player. Confusion only has effect on the individuals it hits. It is up to the DM whether it causes any delays for the other hobgoblins, which may choose simply to ignore the affected individuals, soaking up a few hits along the way, but mostly coming through uninjured. With Redcloak at the front, who presumably has Spellcraft, he can identify the spell and call out orders to just rush past.
Here is the thing though, is this DM realistic when it comes to human emotions. Considering the moral comic, i'd say so. The deal with confusion is that the hobs don't know who is confused and who is not, hell the non spell casters might not even know that a spell was cast. Even if Red orders the charge to keep going, it only hurts the hobs in that area, here are a few situations
1. Five hobs are in a line running, when one of them attacks the other, and two more attack eachoter. Those that were not confused attack the attackers, and other hobs charging past get caught in the cross fire and then attack them, others see this attack and rush to assist their friends. One hob hearing Red's command runs past and gets hit by a stray hit from a confused hobgoblin, while a confused one stops his attack and runs away, simple to be trampled, and/or stabbed
2. Five hobs are charing when one stands still stunned while two more walk in random directions. The standing guy is sudenly trampled but trips the guy behind him, who is also trampled to death, while of the the two wanders suddenly attacks a dude behind him before being crushed. Of the two who are not affected, one follows the wander guy (trying to see what he is doing) and breaks ranks, only to break the ranks of those behind, while the last guy stops sudenly seeing all his men gone and is crushed
3. Five hobs, one wanders off and breaks ranks, one stands still and is crushed, one sudenlly runs away in fear, while two more attack eachother, really the moral is awful
For fear, imagine your a hob, big fight is going one, when about half a dozen guys near by suddenly scream and run like hell away, followed by a few more guys (some afraid by the confused, some wandering radomly by the confusion) and then the flame throwing avarter of death appears. You don't think logiclly, you run



It is established that there are clerics and other casters scattered through the horde, who are capable of identifying the problem and calling orders to the officers on what to do about it. They are, after all, charging for the gate with singlemindedness. Flat ignoring these individuals is a reasonable response for someone focused like that.
Really, because it seems like a massive disorginized mob, i ask you how would the orders get out. For that matter, how would the clerics who are not right next to the spell even know? Its a freaking hoard, kinda hard to see. Anyways, i doubt they could really convice the hobs who are being attack or bumping into their friends to just ignore it without delaying the charge for a round, giving me more time to get my troops in place.


The ones standing around drooling are pretty obvious, as are the ones fleeing.
Out of about 20 thousand guys, while charging and having arrows shot at them you think they can really stop to look. For that matter, will they even realize what is going on? Red is in the front, I cast the spell in the middle, so he is out, the other hobs are in the crowd so they have to see though the mass of men



You saw what happened when the hobs faced organized resistance. If you think a few random hobs attacking their allies will slow such a mass of men and material you really need to reread the charge through the breach comic. They got rolled over. Men have momentum, and it's forced by the men in the back that can't see what's happening up front. They will quite literally not have a clue and trample anything that is in their way.
Rolled over about two dozen guys, i mentioned above that i was going to tell the men to stay for i still have might magic to assist them (as well as i would send out for more troops from the wall a while ago) so their would be more of them and hopefully better moral (with the paladins and clerics their after all). So it would be orginized resistence worth something, not just a few guys. Also i mentioned bottle neck.


Again, that's a DM's decision. This is essentially a big riot, and when a riot moves in one direction, it typically ignores anything not going with it, trampling it into mush.
Thus causing chaos and making it easlier to
1. Crush Redcloak when i cast disnergrate on his mount
2. Bottle neck them
3. Break moral
4. Lose troops
5. Lose oginization
6. Slow down
7. raise my own moral



So what? The guys behind can't see what's happening, and simply charge through it without noticing, or trampling the problem under. All you're doing is creating a blip in the ranks.
Charge throught to be attack by their buds, or crush their buds, or generally cause even more chaos

More likely, any sergeant that sees a hobgoblin retreating or fighting his allies will simply call him a deserter and run him through, ordering everyone to keep charging.
It is a chaotic rush, you've even said so, i really doubt that
1. the sergeant will notice
2. he can even stab him in time (the time it takes for him to stab will have him trampled
3. Be able to reley any orders




You can ready an action to attack the first hobgoblin to approach. Yay, you. Maybe you kill one. You get an AoO to attack when the next one (or the survivor) Overruns you. Then the next rank OVerruns you. Then the next. Then the next. The Giant's defenders were trampled under legally. The hobs used Overrun (and maybe Bull Rush) rules to plow through the breach, and your Spear Wall would be no more effective against those numbers. Your archers, if aimed at the breach, have a chance of hitting their allies, so if there are any numbers of them, you'll be killing your own defenders.
Did i forget to mentiond spear wall. And bottle neck. And archer waves. Oh wait, no i didnt. The first line will get into the breach only to be bottle necked, shot, and then impalied. I'd say considering the size of the breach, about 5-70 could fit through at once (if my men are bottlenecking) and with a few hundred men i have plus giant dwarf with a hammer), halely sniping their cleric, their two main guys crushed, my casting any attack spells i have left (once i'm out i'm running like hell, but by then i'm useless anyways) pluse paladins, clerics ect who will be behind the spear wall, and more troops arriving from the walls to assit, it will be costly


I thought you were limiting to V's only. You just justified me using Durkon to rebuild the breach (instead of relying on V) by using him yourself. Even turning to Belkar allows me to use anyone I want instead of V.
No, your using them as V, aka V is giving them orders. (also you might want to read my quote closer, i'm not having Durkon repair just hold the breach), V is ordering the rest of OOTS, who i hope will arrive and help. That is basic troop management, hence i had to take a round to send runners to get them. Sence V is already their, I start out controling him/her, but V sends runners to get the rest of OOTS




In the end, it comes down to the world. If my world had a Sun Tzu, then my Sun Tzu wrote on magic, and so commanders studying him will know how to utilize magic intelligently. I run an Eberron campaign, where magic was used by all sides. There is no justification for a fortress to lack defenses against magic after 100 years of that.
Lack of resources or casters maybe?


from,
EE

[Setra]

I'd call 911. Easy as that.

There is no actual WAY you'd be able to hold a breach against such a massive force, EVEN as a high-level d20 character. All I'm saying.

And yes, we all heard of Thermopylae, at least some of us saw "300". Still, I stick to my original answer.
Technically you're not alone, you also have allies.

And combined with them, and a wizard, one could very well hold a breach. As seen in previous answers.

[EvilElitest]

Technically you're not alone, you also have allies.

And combined with them, and a wizard, one could very well hold a breach. As seen in previous answers.

Yeah, if i had a level 20 wizard against that force i could hold with only two dozen men (who i won't need anyways but still).
Though a level 20 elf wizard without necro or conjer ablities, hmmmm, even then i most likely could.
from,
EE

[Snipers_Promise]

I would try and create a spell (or several) which gave me a huge charisma bonus and bluff them all: "Azure City? No, this is Cobalt City. Try Kanto"

That might actually work. :smallbiggrin:

[Kreistor]

1. After the giant soilders start attacking the hobs, i order those men who are standing behind to shoot arrows over their heads into the on coming hoard

Unfortunately, DnD rules do not let you avoid hitting the back of their head. Cover rules do not take into account arrow arc.


2. Burn the body pile to pervent them from climbing over it,

Bodies are mostly water. Very hard to burn. You could pour gasoline on them, and still only char the outside.


3. Have a sheild wall right behind the giant soilders to cut off any enemies from entering the breach easilty (won't stop the death knight but will hold off ghouls

No, it won't. Shield walls have no mechanical effect on Bull Rush or Overrun. Line goes down, just like before.


4. Do the runner idea i mentioned earlier in my other post to get reninforcements here from OOTS, clerics and paladins

Paladins are not available. They are in the throne room only. Clerics did come, so their effect was already accounted for in keeping the soldiers vertical in the original strip.

An dpulling the OotS away from the center may mean a foothold on the walls. They were spending their time reinforcing weak points with Hinjo. You may have held the breach and lost the city anyway.


5. Use all spells slots other than the ones i mentioned above on the hoard, mostly fireballs

Congrats, you just wasted 44x20 = 880 goblins or thereabouts. What about the other 29200? You went from 3:1 to 2.92:1. Yay, you.


6. order all those clerics, the low level ones and the high levels who i asked for plus Durkon to turn undead to hold off the massive hoard

Horde of ghouls, BTW. Treasure hoard. Horde of ghouls.

One would presume that they already were, since they had come to the aid of the breach. You didn't improve anything with this.


7. Get some dude to find me some more scroll in that libery, get anything

The AC has their own casters and they would get priority on scrolls. As an AC resource, V does not have the right to demand them, or even ask for them.


8. Have Thor's might appear in the breach and start the smash

You just made Durkon a big, easy target. Any attack has a 5% chance of hitting, no matter how bad the shooter, and hobgoblins get a dex bonus, making them commonly archers rather than melee. 2000 archers shoot at Durkon, 100 hits, for 100D8 damage. Durkon dies instantly.

The Giant really gave the V's giant soldiers in the breach a big handwave. The archers should have been clearing that breach, and given they have a huge area to fire from, they can annihilate anything in that breach. By all rights, V's enlarged soldiers should have died in just a few rounds, no matter how much healing was available. Even if Clerics ready actions to heal, they'll each be burning one healing per round, and even for Durkon, that's going to run him dry in under a few minutes. The Giant was very, very kind to those soldiers. V's buffing shouldn't have worked.


9. Don't disnergrate the Death knight, aim for his horse and save the second one for later (later to be used on RedCloak's mount

V does not have Know(religion), and therefore wouldn't know the DK has Spell Resistance, and even then, V had a more than fair chance of penetrating. Unluck happens, and unlike a sorcerer, V only gets so many chances. Were I your DM, I'd call you for metagaming for pulling this, because unless your your wizard has Know(religion), you've got no reason to think a skeleton has SR.


10. Have the paladin's deal with it, but tell the random soilder NOT TO CROWD AROUND IT DAMN IT, instead have them and general Chang hold the breach

Not available. The Sapphire Guard is in the throne room, and not available for you to give orders to.

General Chang is not under V's orders. You're also presuming that he has all Warrior levels. He may very well have Aristocrat and commoner levels, depending on his background. But, the important point is he is old and an officer, and if he goes down in that breach, all of those troops may lose morale and break. He's more important to the cause alive than fighting.


12. When Roy's dragon kills it, have the paldins attack the breach

And Xykon just captured the throne room. Without the massive reinforcements from the dead paladins, it's just Soon and Xykon, and so Xykon has the spells to devote to just Soon. Remember, X didn't know who the tough one was: he wasted spells blowing away the ranks of ghosts, but with the paladins out of the Throne Room, X has only the one paladin that had died there before -- Soon from old age. Each spell has a 50% chance of hurting Soon, and unlike Miko, he lacks Evasion, so he'll take damage. That Xykon didn't know how to deal with Incorporeal really surprises me. That's a basic knowledge that's written into many of the spell descriptions. Anyway, he'll stumble onto Magic Missile eventually.


13. have the soilder's on the wall directly next to the breach start droping spears and shooting arrows from above, along with any big rocks

Uh... they pretty much already were.

I think your problem here comes from a little lack of knowledge. I suggest you study Napoleonic era fighting. Take a look at how France's columns defeated Prussian lines. Then take a look at how the English lines defeated the French columns. With the deserters, you're now the Prussians. Without them, you might have been the English. In short, you don't have the manpower to defeat the column anymore.


14. Send a runner to aim the catapults at the hoard near the wall (Not very near mind you, just at the rear of the hoard to pick off some guys

That takes them off counter-battery duty. The hobgoblin artillery can now shoot at your artillery without taking losses themselves, positioning closer than they normally would have been able to, due to the lack of hindrance from the city's engines. So even if you win today, you're out of seige engines to win tomorrow, and there are now 10 breaches to deal with. That's what the engines did: breach the walls. With no counter-fire, they can make as many breaches as they want, and how do you plan to defend against that?


15. Extra guys fight on the wall

Extra guys deserted. You don't get to change that.

In the end, most of what you suggested is what would have been happening, albeit off camera. You've got nothing here about V that's new. V can kill a lot of hobgoblins, but it's just a dent in the overall mass. Nothing here changes the results.

[basilisk 89]

This is not the nation your looking for.....

My Will save is too high for that. You can keep your droids, too.

*sklurtch*

[Ganurath]

My previous replies to this thread have all been based on one basic assumption. Now that I have removed the assumption, I have developed a new plan:

After dismissing the elementals as V did before, let the general amass the troops before the breach to brace for charge, quickly scrambling up the enemy position for a superior firing arc. As the hobgoblins approach, use Alter Self (spell, scroll, w/e) to look like an evil humanoid, whichever is easiest. You would have explained to the general that this is to avoid drawing fire from enemy archers.

Now, the critical part. Cast Magic Missile to clear out nearby soldiers, then send a fireball into the Azurite breach-holders, preferably in a manner so that the more experienced general gets hit for impact damage. Protection from arrows is already up, so toss Magic Missiles at any Azurites coming after you while throwing Scorching Rays into the Azurite Ranks below.

That's right. I'd turn traitor. The thread didn't ask what I'd do to hold the breach, it asked what I would do if I were in that situation.

[EvilElitest]

Unfortunately, DnD rules do not let you avoid hitting the back of their head. Cover rules do not take into account arrow arc.

Ok aim above their heads and let the arch come into play later. A bit more of a hombrew situation.



Bodies are mostly water. Very hard to burn. You could pour gasoline on them, and still only char the outside.
Burn on the outside, that keeps the ghouls from climbing them



No, it won't. Shield walls have no mechanical effect on Bull Rush or Overrun. Line goes down, just like before.
1. Read tomb of battle
2. The point remains, sheild wall. Black and white rule hugging is nice to an extent, but we know giant is willing to bend the rules if need be.
3. Logiclly, when you are charging a guy with a sheild, then tend to stab you, same with spear walls


Paladins are not available. They are in the throne room only. Clerics did come, so their effect was already accounted for in keeping the soldiers vertical in the original strip.
1. As i said, send a runner to the paladins to inform them that the breach has been created and their presense is need right now. I still think that Roy is fighting Xykon so i think the paladins can come, more so if their have the ghost martry trick
2. Low level paladins were in the city itself
3. Ummmm, i'm talking about the high priest and his boys in the courtyard, i wil send a message saying their presence if vitail for the sake of the city



An dpulling the OotS away from the center may mean a foothold on the walls. They were spending their time reinforcing weak points with Hinjo. You may have held the breach and lost the city anyway.
Foot hold on the walls? If you haven't noticed, we have
1. A pissed of halfing with fireball powers running rampent their
2. Ladder attack
3. Move soilders to replace them, a breach is more important than a wall attack, a single level one soilder can push down a ladder and can effectivly hold them, the bigger concern is the breach.


Congrats, you just wasted 44x20 = 880 goblins or thereabouts. What about the other 29200? You went from 3:1 to 2.92:1. Yay, you.
Yep, less of their guys more of my guys, i'm happy. The others if will hold off with my second plan, Red's charge. Also, your math is wrong, by this point quite a few hobs are already dead, and you forget my none fireball lighting ball spells. Hell, with level one i can magic missel any hobgoblin who looks like he is giving orders, or i'll just aim for the ghasts who could take down quite a few of my men
Edit: Oh for the Red's charge plan, here is what i want to do as well, cast Evan' Spike tenticals of forced intrusion upon the hobgoblin leader guy, really bad for hob moral


Horde of ghouls, BTW. Treasure hoard. Horde of ghouls.
What?

One would presume that they already were, since they had come to the aid of the breach. You didn't improve anything with this.
Ummmmmm, no as the clerics were in the court yard only to wiped out by Redcloak and Durkon was on the wall. So no sadly, only the weak clerics were with me



The AC has their own casters and they would get priority on scrolls. As an AC resource, V does not have the right to demand them, or even ask for them.
Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, no
1. Caster's higher than level 13? Really were the hell were they during the fight because i didn't see once. If one of the could cast wall of iron, we really could use one
2. The dudes on the wall did next to nothing, and i will saftly presume none of them were really power except the one who turned traitor
3. Ummmmmm, here is a right for you. Right to help try to pervent your city from being crushed and wiped out.
4. Show me a comic where they say that V can't have scrolls
5. My orders "Bring every single caster, wand, scrolll, or anyone able to use a scroll or wand to the breach as fast as possible, bring everything, we need it to hold off the hobs. Everything, if we unlesh all the casters at the breach (where the hobs are bottle necked) we can do enough damage for the reninforcements to arrive.



You just made Durkon a big, easy target. Any attack has a 5% chance of hitting, no matter how bad the shooter, and hobgoblins get a dex bonus, making them commonly archers rather than melee. 2000 archers shoot at Durkon, 100 hits, for 100D8 damage. Durkon dies instantly.
Nice try, but it didn't work for the giant soilders because guy what, while they all died, they didn't die easily.



The Giant really gave the V's giant soldiers in the breach a big handwave. The archers should have been clearing that breach, and given they have a huge area to fire from, they can annihilate anything in that breach. By all rights, V's enlarged soldiers should have died in just a few rounds, no matter how much healing was available. Even if Clerics ready actions to heal, they'll each be burning one healing per round, and even for Durkon, that's going to run him dry in under a few minutes. The Giant was very, very kind to those soldiers. V's buffing shouldn't have worked.
Quite frankly, your not the giant, and so thank goodness, your not the DM here for the purpose of wheater or not i could hold the breach longer. If you remember right, the hob archers wre shooting at the wall and didn't come along with the death' knights group at all


V does not have Know(religion), and therefore wouldn't know the DK has Spell Resistance, and even then, V had a more than fair chance of penetrating. Unluck happens, and unlike a sorcerer, V only gets so many chances. Were I your DM, I'd call you for metagaming for pulling this, because unless your your wizard has Know(religion), you've got no reason to think a skeleton has SR.
1. Prove V doesn't have Knowlage (religion)
2. If you were the Dm, good for you
3. No but i will assume that any skelaton with flaming eyes and apperent super powers it is to much to hope that one hit will take it out
4. Metagaming in OOTS. No, that has never happened before
5. Honestly, i'd aim for the horse anyways, seeing as he took out those giant soilders, it is safe to assume he put a lot of feats in ride and combat on mounts, so taking out the mount is a fire proidy anyways
6. Leave him for the death knights


Not available. The Sapphire Guard is in the throne room, and not available for you to give orders to.
Called a runner, send it to the SG and tell them their presence is need at the wall if the city will hold. Hell i'd do it the moment the breach appered. Considered they still have the ghost matrys and that Xykon's army needs to be stoped, i'd say its a good deal


General Chang is not under V's orders.
Good for him, however i am the badass wizard and i'm the one telling him that he needs to command teh troops in the breach. If he disagrees, guess what, talking is a free action, so i can go into a whole speech of my tatics


You're also presuming that he has all Warrior levels. He may very well have Aristocrat and commoner levels, depending on his background. But, the important point is he is old and an officer, and if he goes down in that breach, all of those troops may lose morale and break. He's more important to the cause alive than fighting.
1. I ment command not fight, though he will if he has to
2. I really don't think he'd not be a warrior, but in case he is i'll use my free aciton to ask him




And Xykon just captured the throne room.
Ummmmmm, good for him he can't do anything with it, it takes ages to use the gates

Without the massive reinforcements from the dead paladins, it's just Soon and Xykon,
1. Wrong their were paladins their who were not killed in the Throne Room, presumable those who had died earlier
2. The paladins at the breach would provide reneforcements as well
3. At the moment Roy is about to be killed
4. Strangly enough, Soon was barelty wounded when Xykon died,

and so Xykon has the spells to devote to just Soon.
OK, my bets are on Soon


Remember, X didn't know who the tough one was: he wasted spells blowing away the ranks of ghosts,
Don't forget he was using fire and lighting, if Red never shows up then he might keep that up.


but with the paladins out of the Throne Room, X has only the one paladin that had died there before -- Soon from old age. Each spell has a 50% chance of hurting Soon, and unlike Miko, he lacks Evasion, so he'll take damage. That Xykon didn't know how to deal with Incorporeal really surprises me.
1. Other paladins, some from deaths at the breach and those who died before hand
2. Soon is pretty badass himself, because EVERY ONE of his hits do hit, and even once he uses up all his smite evils, he can still hurt Xykon


That's a basic knowledge that's written into many of the spell descriptions. Anyway, he'll stumble onto Magic Missile eventually.
1. Xykon is not a person who would read the rules very closely i imagine
2. Ok, remember Xykon reloctence to cast magic missile? By the time he gets to it i would think he'd be out of level 2-up spells. Remember, he didn't even catch on his spell couldn't hurt the ghost until red told him. So even if he kills Soon with magic missile, he could have taken great damage, have to deal with the dead paladins from the breach, and lastly he has no spells. Well, i'm scared



Uh... they pretty much already were.
I ment forcused at the entrice of the breach, bottleneck?


I think your problem here comes from a little lack of knowledge. I suggest you study Napoleonic era fighting. Take a look at how France's columns defeated Prussian lines. Then take a look at how the English lines defeated the French columns. With the deserters, you're now the Prussians. Without them, you might have been the English. In short, you don't have the manpower to defeat the column anymore.
Funny thing, your telling me what to look up (but you seem to not be able to grasp the concept of a bottle neck) but don't tell me what the problem is. If you mean the deserters, well then, presuming my first attack when well, their moral should be better, more so with paladins their, if not i'll just yell out to them that i have some magic to assist them. V didn't say anything in the deserter comic.


That takes them off counter-battery duty. The hobgoblin artillery can now shoot at your artillery without taking losses themselves, positioning closer than they normally would have been able to,
Show me a strip were the hobs shot after the elementals, because I havn't seen any stones flying. If they launch rock, i'll lauch rocks, if the don't, i'll aim for the breach


due to the lack of hindrance from the city's engines. So even if you win today, you're out of seige engines to win tomorrow, and there are now 10 breaches to deal with. That's what the engines did: breach the walls. With no counter-fire, they can make as many breaches as they want, and how do you plan to defend against that?
And they have a greatly weakened army, but i wouldn't take the catapults away if they are still using theirs (and considering that Red said that his artillery couldn't do the damage he wanted it seems like they wouldn't)


Extra guys deserted. You don't get to change that.
They deserted because of the heavy losses teh substained, not leaders around, a wizard who admitted he/she was out of spells and they were scared. I can change that by making the first attack on the breach cost more and lose less


In the end, most of what you suggested is what would have been happening, albeit off camera. You've got nothing here about V that's new. V can kill a lot of hobgoblins, but it's just a dent in the overall mass. Nothing here changes the results.
Ummmmm, my plan is the hold the breach for as long as possible using a bottle neck until my amount of men is so short i have to call a retreat and by then i still have a second wall to pull back to, plus reinforcement. Aka, i want to hold until the reninforcements arrive, then i'll just use up the last of my spells and start shooting a bow. Or maybe i'll run to the library and find some scrolls
from,
EE

[UncredibleHallq]

If you drop the restriction on conjurations, I'd cast summon monster IV and take the rest of the day off.

Well, not quite, but almost. A yeth hound can take out half the grunts in a 300 ft. radius in one round. Sure it affects your troops, but summon it 60 ft away from them, and have it do a fly-run out 240 more feet and you're set. With any luck you will get several uses of its ability before it gets killed/dispelled. Or you can always summon extras, maybe start out with a summon monster VI instead. Sure it only lasts for a few rounds, but if you give them a moderately plausible reason to run (cloudkill, more monsters, etc.), group psychology will kick in and 1) they're fellow soldiers will run with them and 2) it will be difficult to regain control of them when the effect wears off. Have archers/calvary to chase them into the distance, and the casualties will be great enough to keep them from coming back.

Of course, smart enemies--ones who read their Monster Manual in addition to paying attention in chemistry--will do the same thing. This is why in a DnD world with mid-level casters, massive armies are useless, with the possible exception of when they're instantaneously plopped in the middle of a group of unprepared opponents with teleport circle or gate.

[doliemaster]

First before the battle put signs at random places in the battle field with explosive runes scribed on it, lets assume that there is 15 hobos within the range of the blast and they are now dead, now let with 18 intelligence he gets one bonus spell for 3rd level which means 5 of those, they lost 75 hobos.
Next after the signs go off, cast flaming spheres at different parts of the wall and each of these 5 spells last 13 rounds and can reach 30 feet each round. Now lets say it takes out 3 each round, with 13 rounds and with 5 that is=195. That is 270 hobos with your 2nd and 3rd level spells. The enlarge person trick V did. Use the leftover level 4 spells as stone shape to turn the walls and bottom of the beach into stone spikes to spear anything that charges the wall. Next acid fog outside of the breach and whenever one dies cast another till you run out. For seventh, hope like hell you have those 10 minutes to cast control weather and summon a tornado.

[the mysterian]

use a massive chain spell. over and over until drained then run.

[arkwei]

1. As i said, send a runner to the paladins to inform them that the breach has been created and their presense is need right now. I still think that Roy is fighting Xykon so i think the paladins can come, more so if their have the ghost martry trick
2. Low level paladins were in the city itself
3. Ummmm, i'm talking about the high priest and his boys in the courtyard, i wil send a message saying their presence if vitail for the sake of the city


Why would those priest listen to you? V is not an AC commander. He is not even an AC citizen, I presume. V, as it stands, has no authority whatsoever over any AC troop. Think of him as a mercenary; a very powerful one, but a mercenary nonetheless.

I agree that the head priest and people staying in the court is stupid, but V cannot change that.



Foot hold on the walls? If you haven't noticed, we have
1. A pissed of halfing with fireball powers running rampent their
2. Ladder attack
3. Move soilders to replace them, a breach is more important than a wall attack, a single level one soilder can push down a ladder and can effectivly hold them, the bigger concern is the breach.

Obviously. Do you want to think about why there's no more AC people at the breach? Because there's no more people fighting on their side. The chain of command is very important, but it is not something that V can influence.



5. My orders "Bring every single caster, wand, scrolll, or anyone able to use a scroll or wand to the breach as fast as possible, bring everything, we need it to hold off the hobs. Everything, if we unlesh all the casters at the breach (where the hobs are bottle necked) we can do enough damage for the reninforcements to arrive.

Guess what? You won't get it. All jet plane pilots claim to be low on gas so that they can land early; same thing in battles, all commanders want more troops. It's just not happening.



1. Prove V doesn't have Knowlage (religion)
2. If you were the Dm, good for you
3. No but i will assume that any skelaton with flaming eyes and apperent super powers it is to much to hope that one hit will take it out
4. Metagaming in OOTS. No, that has never happened before
5. Honestly, i'd aim for the horse anyways, seeing as he took out those giant soilders, it is safe to assume he put a lot of feats in ride and combat on mounts, so taking out the mount is a fire proidy anyways
6. Leave him for the death knights


Okay, but what you did is just saving one disintegrate. Better than nothing, but - to be honest, not that much.



Good for him, however i am the badass wizard and i'm the one telling him that he needs to command teh troops in the breach. If he disagrees, guess what, talking is a free action, so i can go into a whole speech of my tatics

No, it is not. Checkout this comic. V talked too much, and they lost one round of time.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html



4. Strangly enough, Soon was barelty wounded when Xykon died,

OK, my bets are on Soon


Remember, the wounds on Soon are not drawn out. Check out this comic, where Xykon shot him with Max Magic Missile. Soon has to have taken damage from it, yet he look the same, with no wound on him.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

And also, Xykon has an option called "retreat." With flight, that's pretty easy. We don't know whether Soon can move out of the throne room, so I can't talk about it.



1. Xykon is not a person who would read the rules very closely i imagine

He did, to do the rubber ball trick.



Funny thing, your telling me what to look up (but you seem to not be able to grasp the concept of a bottle neck) but don't tell me what the problem is. If you mean the deserters, well then, presuming my first attack when well, their moral should be better, more so with paladins their, if not i'll just yell out to them that i have some magic to assist them. V didn't say anything in the deserter comic.

So? It's not like the odds are even comparable. You yell all you want, but people are not going to face a fight at a friend/enemy ratio of 1:100. From the look of the comic, that's what happened. It's maybe over a hundred vs. over 25000. Not something "I have magic" could have helped.



Show me a strip were the hobs shot after the elementals, because I havn't seen any stones flying. If they launch rock, i'll lauch rocks, if the don't, i'll aim for the breach

So..."If not shown, didn't happen?" Why would they not shoot their rocks?



They deserted because of the heavy losses teh substained, not leaders around, a wizard who admitted he/she was out of spells and they were scared. I can change that by making the first attack on the breach cost more and lose less

They deserted BEFORE the two armies clashed. So, no, you only have like 20 soldiers to defend the wall.



Ummmmm, my plan is the hold the breach for as long as possible using a bottle neck until my amount of men is so short i have to call a retreat and by then i still have a second wall to pull back to, plus reinforcement. Aka, i want to hold until the reninforcements arrive, then i'll just use up the last of my spells and start shooting a bow. Or maybe i'll run to the library and find some scrolls
from,
EE

Then you would die. Now, come on, yes V has a okay BAB, but a wizard with a bow? Remember, V has many cuts on his/her person already when the entire army charged.









Now, about your "disintegrate RC's mount" thing:

Even less likely to have worked than on the death knight. The death knight is undead, and they have low fort saves. That might be one reason that V use the spell on him, because indeed disintegrate is the bane of all undead, bar none. Not even the death knight, he simply got lucky. The mammoth, I would venture, has high fort saves.

[Aquillion]

You already lost then. By retaining spells until Redcloak's charge, you allowed the breach to be taken earlier in the day. V was out of magic when Hinjo charged, all cast to hold the breach. By not casting your spells earlier, you are relying on the defnders to hold the breach for you, which means there are either far fewer of them, or the enemy established their foothold inside the breach.That is because V selected spells stupidly--from what we saw, V used large numbers of evocation attacks, each killing an extremely small number of hobbos and slowing the attack not at all. And in order to do anything like that, V must have been wasting something on the order of one spell a round.

Wall of Fire has a duration of concentration and would be suicide for most hobgoblins to pass; that one spell would stop the hobgoblins completely until V was forced to stop concentrating (which could easily be hours if cast from within shelter, and with the guards focusing on protecting you.)

Cloudkill (accessible to V via Greater Shadow Conjuration) lasts minutes/level and could easily kill nearly the entire hobgoblin force if cast just as they charge.

The Symbol spells, cast by V, would last over two hours after activation; many have no HD limit. V had time to cast one of those before the big attack... just about any of them would have made attacking the breach effectively impossible for the duration. If V has permanency and was willing to spend XP, they could make attacking the breach impossible until dispelled (which, in all likelyhood, only Xykon or Redcloak himself could manage.)

Permanency is really the key in some ways... it's just two rounds to cast, and anything effective that you permanency will block passage until Redcloak or Xykon arrive (in which case you're probably doomed anyway). Wall of Force would work; so would Wall of Fire. If Conjuration is allowed, a permanent Stinking Cloud, Web, or Solid Fog would make attacking the breach practically suicide.

There are other options that people have mentioned, but wall of fire is the simplest. Wasting all those spell slots was part the stupidity on V's part that this thread is supposed to be asking how to avoid; assuming that everyone would waste their spells just as quickly is silly.

[arkwei]

That is because V selected spells stupidly--from what we saw, V used large numbers of evocation attacks, each killing an extremely small number of hobbos and slowing the attack not at all. And in order to do anything like that, V must have been wasting something on the order of one spell a round.

Parts are bolded for my rebuttal. Actually, what spells did we see V use? Besides attacking the death knight and enchanting the 13 soldiers, we never exactly see V in action. So, what V actually did when he/she is not in the spotlight is largely in question.

[WarriorTribble]

That is because V selected spells stupidly--from what we saw, V used large numbers of evocation attacks, each killing an extremely small number of hobbos and slowing the attack not at all. And in order to do anything like that, V must have been wasting something on the order of one spell a round.Stupid in hindsite, but remember the original plan was for the group draw Xykon's attacks away from the city. With that as a priority I'd say V did ok at the very least.

[Aquillion]

Parts are bolded for my rebuttal. Actually, what spells did we see V use? Besides attacking the death knight and enchanting the 13 soldiers, we never exactly see V in action. So, what V actually did when he/she is not in the spotlight is largely in question.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)--every time we cut to the breach, V is throwing around lightning. But more importantly, you didn't rebut the main point: V could have held the breach indefinitely (at least until Redcloak arrived in person) with a wall of fire or any one of a number of other options, using at most two or three spells, possibly a few more if low-level enemy clerics come into the equation. Wasting multiple spells where one spell will work is stupid under any strategy.

[arkwei]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)--every time we cut to the breach, V is throwing around lightning. But more importantly, you didn't rebut the main point: V could have held the breach indefinitely (at least until Redcloak arrived in person) with a wall of fire or any one of a number of other options, using at most two or three spells, possibly a few more if low-level enemy clerics come into the equation. Wasting multiple spells where one spell will work is stupid under any strategy.

No, not really, probably V can hold it until the death knight came in. There's no way AC soldiers could have hold that thing by themselves. Again, you are assuming Redcloak will not find a way to counter V's spells, which I find unlikely. Even one more round of Ti elementals at the breach would completely change things. And yes, I do wonder why Redcloak didn't do that. Also, the reason why he didn't concentrate the first several elementals into one place is beyond me.

And, since lightning is only 3rd level, could V get any better spells than those? I'm sure he/she does, but please note the general lack of manpower at the breach here. V probably needed those spells to get those attackers out, in order to settle a clear area for him to plan things out, but he never got such an opportunity, because the enemy is coming at him continuously. His choice is limited to either blow hob's up, or the breach is going to get more breached while he plan other stuff. Redcloak used some shrewd strategy here: distract the powerful members of the enemy with trivial, tactic-level tasks, instead of strategic-level ones.

[Aquillion]

No, not really, probably V can hold it until the death knight came in. There's no way AC soldiers could have hold that thing by themselves.So you go through the encounter with it, then cast wall of fire again. Not so bad; you still have most of your spells in reserve for Redcloak.


Again, you are assuming Redcloak will not find a way to counter V's spells, which I find unlikely. Even one more round of Ti elementals at the breach would completely change things. And yes, I do wonder why Redcloak didn't do that. Also, the reason why he didn't concentrate the first several elementals into one place is beyond me.I specifically mentioned Redcloak. You argued that anyone holding the breach would've had to have wasted all their spells by the time Redcloak arrived, because V had no spells left at that point; I countered that that was because V was being stupid, and showed in several ways how V was being stupid. Anyone in V's place, playing intelligently, could've still had most of their spells in reserve to confront Redcloak, rather than nothing left at all.

Actually beating Redcloak would be much harder, and perhaps impossible, given the level difference; but a poor strategy like V's means that you don't even get a chance to try. Redcloak wasn't being intelligent or strategic; V was being stupid.


And, since lightning is only 3rd level, could V get any better spells than those?

Haste on the defenders, Major Image, Minor Image. Dispel Magic, which is important to have when enemy casters arrive. Magic Circle Against Evil, which would grant significant bonuses to the defenders, carry over to any new defenders (unlike other buffs), and have a shot at blocking summoned creatures.


I'm sure he/she does, but please note the general lack of manpower at the breach here. V probably needed those spells to get those attackers out, in order to settle a clear area for him to plan things out, but he never got such an opportunity, because the enemy is coming at him continuously. His choice is limited to either blow hob's up, or the breach is going to get more breached while he plan other stuff.Now you're just making things up. Most of those spells take one standard action to cast; if you want time, drop a wall of fire or an illusion and step back to think while concentrating on it. But, more to the point, "a clear area to plan things out?" "The breach is going to get more breached while he plan other stuff?" You don't need time or room to plan anything in D&D (especially not when you're supposed to have 18 int--at that point, it's not even good roleplaying), but in any case, V had plenty of time to plan the defense in advance. (Even after the breach occured, V had time to do some quick repairs--plenty of time to come up with a plan beyond "cast a few buffs, then throw lightning uselessly, and plenty of time to realize that any good plan had to involve saving most of the day's spells for Xykon and/or Redcloak.)


Redcloak used some shrewd strategy here: distract the powerful members of the enemy with trivial, tactic-level tasks, instead of strategic-level ones.Not at all. Redcloak's entire rush was a feint that was never intended to succeed; everything was originally banking on Xykon. Redcloak was, up until near the end, perfectly happy with all of his hobgoblins getting completely halted and slaughtered by V; the only reason that they didn't was because V was acting stupidly.

Now, the plot required that V act stupidly there (it usually requires that V act stupidly, because otherwise even with conjuration banned V would be saving the day way too often), but there you have it.

[arkwei]

First of all, I need to establish a point here. V did not plan to fight along the soldiers, he planned on taking Xykon. That's why he had all those spells like disintegrate and lightning. I'm not saying the action of taking on Xykon is not stupid, I'm saying he didn't plan on "turn the tide of the battle" enough, which is what we are trying to do now.




I specifically mentioned Redcloak. You argued that anyone holding the breach would've had to have wasted all their spells by the time Redcloak arrived, because V had no spells left at that point; I countered that that was because V was being stupid, and showed in several ways how V was being stupid. Anyone in V's place, playing intelligently, could've still had most of their spells in reserve to confront Redcloak, rather than nothing left at all.

To begin with, barring Conjuration is stupid. And I really don't think it's "most." A few spells, maybe, considering he had to personally deal with the death knight and all those elementals.



Actually beating Redcloak would be much harder, and perhaps impossible, given the level difference; but a poor strategy like V's means that you don't even get a chance to try. Redcloak wasn't being intelligent or strategic; V was being stupid.

No, Redcloak is being strategic. When you have a large army, and their morale is high, you are being strategic. He is not being tactical, for sending hob's to die, but his entire battle plan is sound. But, you know, the meaning of words is not what we are discussing here. I understand your point, and I agree to it.



Haste on the defenders, Major Image, Minor Image. Dispel Magic, which is important to have when enemy casters arrive. Magic Circle Against Evil, which would grant significant bonuses to the defenders, carry over to any new defenders (unlike other buffs), and have a shot at blocking summoned creatures.

As I said, those spells are really useless against Xykon. That's why V doesn't have them. Also, while the image spells are certainly good (to a point), haste doesn't really add much to the table.

Actually, in thinking about it, my point was "V did alright under the given conditions," so is your point "V could have done better if he know what he is facing"? Because if it is, then we are arguing under different premises and debate like that doesn't make much sense.



Now you're just making things up. Most of those spells take one standard action to cast; if you want time, drop a wall of fire or an illusion and step back to think while concentrating on it. But, more to the point, "a clear area to plan things out?" "The breach is going to get more breached while he plan other stuff?" You don't need time or room to plan anything in D&D (especially not when you're supposed to have 18 int--at that point, it's not even good roleplaying), but in any case, V had plenty of time to plan the defense in advance. (Even after the breach occured, V had time to do some quick repairs--plenty of time to come up with a plan beyond "cast a few buffs, then throw lightning uselessly, and plenty of time to realize that any good plan had to involve saving most of the day's spells for Xykon and/or Redcloak.)

Sorry, too much the Legend of Galaxy Heroes for me these days (it's a novel about battles in space). My bad. And by the way, an 18 int doesn't mean you can come up with impeccable things on the spot. If you have too many things to handle, even the smartest guy on Earth (and I believe that's more than an 18 int) couldn't do it all at once. I'm not saying what I said is not completely made up, of course.


Not at all. Redcloak's entire rush was a feint that was never intended to succeed; everything was originally banking on Xykon. Redcloak was, up until near the end, perfectly happy with all of his hobgoblins getting completely halted and slaughtered by V; the only reason that they didn't was because V was acting stupidly.

Hold on. What Redcloak planned to do is having the hob's getting slaughtered along the walls, but he did plan on taking the city by the breach, as stated here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html). He is happy with the hob's getting killed by Belkar, not by V. Really, RC knows what he is doing, and his measures taken all more or less achieved what he wanted. And by the way, V didn't act stupidly. You can say he planned wrong, but that's it.

[Brawnspear]

Well I don't think I have noticed this yet, so here goes. Greater shadow conjuration. Mimic either wall of iron or wall of stone, it can do either. I assume duration is permanent since the duration of the base spells are. In my opinion, letting only 40% of the wee HD hobbos/undead who make their will save through is a definite benefit, and better use of spells than nuking. It is a 7th level spell, so it would be pricey to get a scroll of it and it would be an interesting one to have actually prepared. But it is made of epic win. This would definitely do the trick. I'm pretty sure that the Azurites could take care of the 40% of savers. By my quick calculations it would be 1/50 baddies who make it through. (assuming nat 20s on saves since it would be rather hard for a hobbo to make v's saves on a 7th level spell). There be my 2 cents :D

edit: Darn Saph beat me to it, just didn't see (darn you case matching find box) *tips hat to Saph*

[Senex]

V: Follow the bouncing ball, children.
REDCLOAK: What... what have you done?
V: I prepared Symbol of Persuasion this morning.

[Kreistor]

EE, you didn't want to look up Napoleon's tactics? Okay, quick trainer, then go out and find the details.

Napoleon used columns against lines. He formed ranks 4-6 men wide, and very deep. He marched these at the 3 man wide lines of the Prussians. The French would shoot once as they closed the lines, since they couldn't stop to reload or the column would stop moving. The front of the column would slowly advance to the Prussian line, where it would break into melee, and superior French numbers suddenly took over. Napolean destroyed nations this way.

The English were the only army that actually trained their men to shoot. They were required to learn to shoot three rounds per minute, where the other nations could maybe make 2. Because of this, the english needed only 2 men deep lines to maintain the same rate of fire as the Prussians, and they were still more accurate. Consequently, the front of that marching column would not actually get closer to the english line, dying faster than they were replaced by the men behind them.

I don't think I have to say very much more. It should be clear that others here think you're being far too presumptive in your solutions. You're trying to access things that are never described as existing, give orders no one will follow, and expecting effects that the rules don't include.

[Lord Zentei]

Ha, I love this question...

I would empowered fireball every single hobo..EVERY SINGLE ONE.I would finish the rest off with fingers of death, and hire a team of builders to fix it.I would use my timestop scroll and screw around with physics to where it stopped all of azure inside a massive unmoving time flow.I would then use an empowered implode that was supersized by a glitch in time and destroy all of azure city.

You don't need empowered spells against 1-HD hobbos. Try Widen Spell instead to increase the area of effect.

[EvilElitest]

Why would those priest listen to you? V is not an AC commander. He is not even an AC citizen, I presume. V, as it stands, has no authority whatsoever over any AC troop. Think of him as a mercenary; a very powerful one, but a mercenary nonetheless.

ummmmmm no
1. V is not a mercenary, because he/she is not being paid for this job, he is serving willingly out of the knowlage that it will save the world
2. V had enough authority to keep Chang from interfering with the giant soilders plan.
3. V is a friend of Hinjo and I really don't think Hinjo would not want the clerics their
4. V knows the City needs them at the breach now
5. Why the hell wouldn't they come? We have seen not cleric/army conflict as yet.



I agree that the head priest and people staying in the court is stupid, but V cannot change that.
Ummmmm, yes he can, send a runner with orders that the city's existence is at sake if then don't show up at the breach
If need be I'll get chang to sign the letter, talking is a free action so i have plenty of time to convince him of my tatic


Obviously. Do you want to think about why there's no more AC people at the breach? Because there's no more people fighting on their side. The chain of command is very important, but it is not something that V can influence.
Ummmm, i think your repleying to the wrong post, because your whole chain of command statment is out of context



Guess what? You won't get it.
Why? Your not the DM, Rich is. Hell, as such we can presume their is not DM to an extent. So why wouldn't i get all the casters? They were put in their orginal position under the presumption that they were facing a long siege and it would be better to keep them out of enemy range, not an enemy breach. I send a runner telling them they are needed at the breach


All jet plane pilots claim to be low on gas so that they can land early; same thing in battles, all commanders want more troops. It's just not happening.
Why? Cause your points seems to be "Becuase I say so" and i see not logical reason for the casters to defend the weakest point in the city's defense.



Okay, but what you did is just saving one disintegrate. Better than nothing, but - to be honest, not that much.
Are you reading my posts? I mention that i plan to use that disintergrate against a hob leader, but when i see Red's mount i use it on that, thus making the two highest ranking generals fall to the ground to be crushed by their own hoard, bad for moral



No, it is not. Checkout this comic. V talked too much, and they lost one round of time.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html
OK
1. Read PHB, talking is a free action
2. V made a command towards the dragon in that round, that failed, one round
3. And even in OOTS they say talking is a free action right in comic 166
quote from Haley in pannel two "Relax, speaking is a free action"


Remember, the wounds on Soon are not drawn out. Check out this comic, where Xykon shot him with Max Magic Missile. Soon has to have taken damage from it, yet he look the same, with no wound on him.
Umm, in the course of the comic the when something does very little damage it isn't shown at all, so i presume that it did so little damage that it didn't appear on Soon. Even if it does hurt him a lot, by the time Xykon got to using magic missile he would be out of high level spells knowing his tatical abilties


And also, Xykon has an option called "retreat." With flight, that's pretty easy. We don't know whether Soon can move out of the throne room, so I can't talk about it.
Why would Xykon retreat? He is
1. An egomaniac
2. Not a very good tatical guy
3. Arrogent
4. I don't even think he caught on about hte fire and lighting probelm until Red showed up
5. He knows that should he die he will just come back, he has not reason to fear for his life
6. Short atteintion span
7. Forgets things a lote


He did, to do the rubber ball trick.
And he didn't, the ghost fire and lighting deal? A pretty well know rule that he didn't know. Hell he didn't even know that magic missile did energy damage that could hurt a ghost.



So? It's not like the odds are even comparable. You yell all you want, but people are not going to face a fight at a friend/enemy ratio of 1:100. From the look of the comic, that's what happened. It's maybe over a hundred vs. over 25000. Not something "I have magic" could have helped.
1. Prove it
2. If they suffer less losses than they did and the hobs suffered more they will be less likely to retreat
3. If leaders are able to rally them (None were around in the comic but thats a different story) good ness
4. If i were V i'd say something along the lines of "Fear not my soilders, for my mighty magic will hold off our foes and cause choas to our enemy. And then order them into a tatical position. Really, do you want to mess with a dude who throws fire?



So..."If not shown, didn't happen?" Why would they not shoot their rocks?
1. I have seen no hob rocks launched after the breach came about
2. I have seen not damage from the rocks
Why red wouldn't shoot them
1. They could hit their own guys
2. To much effort when their current tatic is working
3. They don't do enough collateral damage
4. They don't really need them, they already have a breach and their is a ninja at the second gate.


They deserted BEFORE the two armies clashed. So, no, you only have like 20 soldiers to defend the wall.
Wow, really dude read all the of my posts before repelying because you just missed the point of the whole tatic, which is namely doing better at the first attack (along with getting more leaders to rally the troops) to hold the breach


Then you would die. Now, come on, yes V has a okay BAB, but a wizard with a bow? Remember, V has many cuts on his/her person already when the entire army charged.
Ummmmmm, when your shooting a bow you tend not to be in close range of your foes. Once i run out of spells, hopefully my troops have been holding (with the help of paladins and clerics and OOTS ect) the breach and reinforcements have arrived. Now i know that the breach will fall but i want to make it cost as many hob lives as possible, so i get in the on top of a rock and shoot. At V's level she/he could make two attacks pers turn you see, though not for much damage. Once V takes any kind of damage (though not that she/he isn't shooting spell V doesn't make a good target and already cast protection from arrows) or i think the soilders are getting close to their breaking point i run like hell to the second wall, not much i can do anyways. Then i'll go to the scroll liberay and try to find any scrolls they have left to use for the fight.


Now, about your "disintegrate RC's mount" thing:

Even less likely to have worked than on the death knight. The death knight is undead, and they have low fort saves. That might be one reason that V use the spell on him, because indeed disintegrate is the bane of all undead, bar none. Not even the death knight, he simply got lucky. The mammoth, I would venture, has high fort saves.

Ummmmmmm, a death knight has spell reisentence, he didn't get lucky. A mammoth is relativly normal and would have to overcome my level, so i'm pretty good their.
And why did you have that massive space?

EE, you didn't want to look up Napoleon's tactics? Okay, quick trainer, then go out and find the details.

No Keistor, i fall to see their relevence, which you have failed to point out

Napoleon used columns against lines. He formed ranks 4-6 men wide, and very deep. He marched these at the 3 man wide lines of the Prussians.
Ok, their is a magical thing called relevence, i know Napoleon's tatics, i just fail to see how these tatics have any play in this fight. Why
1. THESE ARE MENT FOR FIELD COMBAT! AKA, NOT DEFENDING A WALL, THIS IS MENT FOR WHEN FIGHTING IN A OPEN AREA, AND AC IS NOT!
2. you have failed to point out how these come into play in the AC fight


The French would shoot once as they closed the lines, since they couldn't stop to reload or the column would stop moving. The front of the column would slowly advance to the Prussian line, where it would break into melee, and superior French numbers suddenly took over. Napolean destroyed nations this way.

Yet again, not relevence, but if you insist
1. Field combat
2. None of us have guns, ruins a major point in the attack
3. If you haven't noticed, we are bottle necking them you havn't provided a solution yet
4. Doesn't account for magic



The English were the only army that actually trained their men to shoot. They were required to learn to shoot three rounds per minute, where the other nations could maybe make 2. Because of this, the english needed only 2 men deep lines to maintain the same rate of fire as the Prussians, and they were still more accurate. Consequently, the front of that marching column would not actually get closer to the english line, dying faster than they were replaced by the men behind them.
yes yes i know this but it has nothing to do with a middle age army attacking a breach in a wall. If AC and Red's army were on the fields then yes it would but as yet it has very little relevence. And i assume AC's men are trained how to fight.



I don't think I have to say very much more.
How about relevence, you seem bent of thorwing these french tatics in my face and saying "Here, look at this" without showing any relvence or even basic understanding of the situation

It should be clear that others here think you're being far too presumptive in your solutions.
Prove it.

You're trying to access things that are never described as existing, give orders no one will follow, and expecting effects that the rules don't include
Yet again prove it, i don't need to resort to off topic miltary tatics to prove my point
from,
EE

[David Argall]

5. Why the hell wouldn't they come?
Because they are commanded by Hinjo, not the general or V. He put them at X and that is where they will stay until they are ordered to move.

V and the general definitely should be putting out all sorts of appeals for more troops. But we can tell from the comic they didn't get them. Instead they were standing around where they were useless. This has to be deemed Hinjo's fault, not anybody near the breech.



send a runner with orders that the city's existence is at sake if then don't show up at the breach
If need be I'll get chang to sign the letter, talking is a free action so i have plenty of time to convince him of my tatic.
Presumably this was done, and Hinjo simply didn't see the obvious. We can't entirely blame him. The attack on the walls looked serious and he wanted troops to stop that. But even the drummer boys should have been able to tell that the breech was crucial and the backup troops had to be there.



why wouldn't i get all the casters? They were put in their orginal position under the presumption that they were facing a long siege and it would be better to keep them out of enemy range, not an enemy breach. I send a runner telling them they are needed at the breach
And again, you would get back a message that they are waiting for orders from Hinjo.



i see not logical reason for the casters to defend the weakest point in the city's defense.
There likely is no logical reason for the defensive casters to stay away from where they are needed the most, but as they say, "there is a right way, a wrong way, and the army way." These casters have been ordered to their posts and will likely stay there until told to move, which Hinjo seems unwilling to do. V can't make them move.



i plan to use that disintergrate against a hob leader, but when i see Red's mount i use it on that, thus making the two highest ranking generals fall to the ground to be crushed by their own hoard, bad for moral
It certainly could be tried, but it looks like it saves on a 2 or so.



when your shooting a bow you
know your contribution as a mage is now trivial. It's better than nothing, and if the battle is close, you should do it. But you are not going to swing the battle.




Then i'll go to the scroll liberay and try to find any scrolls they have left to use for the fight.
Actually a tactic that should be done a whole lot earlier. But again, we are dealing with a bureaucracy that will likely make this ineffective.



Prove it.
This sort of demand is somewhat out of place here. We are dealing with inadequate evidence of an unreal situation. Quite simply, we can't prove much of anything, in either direction. There is no ability to say "You can't prove that. Therefore you lose." Instead, all sides must blunder around in a state of uncertainity.


, Napoleon used columns against lines. He formed ranks 4-6 men wide, and very deep. He marched these at the 3 man wide lines of the Prussians.
This worked fine for Napoleon. It was a disaster for the Romans when they tried this sort of thing vs Hannibal. [If the thick and deep troops can break thru, they scatter the enemy army. If they can't, they become a helpless mob, squeezed by each other, and slaughtered in great number.] It is tactical details of the time and place that determine whether the tactic will work or not.



Here and here--every time we cut to the breach, V is throwing around lightning.
Actually we may be looking at the same casting here. It is about the same time period from different angles. We can find differences in the pictures, but these can be assigned to artist error.

[yoshi927]

"Limited Wish" to throw up a Cloudkill, by the time that wears off have the pikes in a square around myself and all the archers, and throw out some fireballs and chain lightnings, and various other damage-causing evocation spells until reinforcements arrive. Although, Redcloak is a pretty big hole in that plan I suppose.

[EvilElitest]

Because they are commanded by Hinjo, not the general or V. He put them at X and that is where they will stay until they are ordered to move.

V and the general definitely should be putting out all sorts of appeals for more troops. But we can tell from the comic they didn't get them. Instead they were standing around where they were useless. This has to be deemed Hinjo's fault, not anybody near the breech.

When did V ask for help? I didn't see any comic. If they did and Hinjo didn't give them help then Hinjo is a bad commander, but i don't think they asked


Presumably this was done, and Hinjo simply didn't see the obvious. We can't entirely blame him. The attack on the walls looked serious and he wanted troops to stop that. But even the drummer boys should have been able to tell that the breech was crucial and the backup troops had to be there.
Really, i don't think it was done.


And again, you would get back a message that they are waiting for orders from Hinjo.
Well then i'm screwed along with AC


There likely is no logical reason for the defensive casters to stay away from where they are needed the most, but as they say, "there is a right way, a wrong way, and the army way." These casters have been ordered to their posts and will likely stay there until told to move, which Hinjo seems unwilling to do. V can't make them move.
Wow, i'm agreeing with you in a lot of these posts, but that s regarding Hinjo's compatence
But anyways, if the battle was a normal siege, then their was a good chance of casters being killed, but yeah it wasn't very smart.


It certainly could be tried, but it looks like it saves on a 2 or so.
I don't think so, if the spell can't effect a simple mount then it isn't much of a spell. If you prove that Red's mount would logically be able to defeat the save with only a 10 or higher, then i would instead cast the spell on the Undead cleric dude


know your contribution as a mage is now trivial. It's better than nothing, and if the battle is close, you should do it. But you are not going to swing the battle
1. Please don't take my words out of context. But
2. I know i can't do much with a box, not much at all, but i am better than the basic troop so i might as well try to take down a few hobs




Actually a tactic that should be done a whole lot earlier. But again, we are dealing with a bureaucracy that will likely make this ineffective.
At this point my guy is practiclly useless, so my tatic is look for scroll,potions, and/or wands anywere i could logiclly find them, that includes looting the bodies of casters if it is safe to do so. Not like my helping the battle would change anything


This sort of demand is somewhat out of place here. We are dealing with inadequate evidence of an unreal situation. Quite simply, we can't prove much of anything, in either direction. There is no ability to say "You can't prove that. Therefore you lose." Instead, all sides must blunder around in a state of uncertainity.
You missed the point, i was accused of making incorrect points, and the offender didn't back it up.


This worked fine for Napoleon. It was a disaster for the Romans when they tried this sort of thing vs Hannibal. [If the thick and deep troops can break thru, they scatter the enemy army. If they can't, they become a helpless mob, squeezed by each other, and slaughtered in great number.] It is tactical details of the time and place that determine whether the tactic will work or not.
Well said

Anyways, if we presume that all the clerics and wizards get into the proper places (Along with OOTS), not to lofty of a goal do you think my tatics is good?
from,
EE

[Chronos]

I still say that a caster ont the eve of a huge battle like this should have prepared several Walls of Fire, if possible (and it's an evocation, so V very likely has it in es book). Yes, es primary target was Xykon and other high-level BBEGs, but still, a single Wall of Fire can make a significant difference in a battle like this. Assuming close packing of troops, a 13th-level Wall of Fire will kill or seriously injure 104 hobgoblins in the first round, and significantly injure the same amount. Then, once it's up, it cuts the battlefield in half, for any enemies not willing or able to soak up 2d6+13 damage (which is almost all of them). Sure, it'll get dispelled as soon as a few of those clerics get close to it, but even if it only lasts a round or two, that's a round or two that the army isn't getting any closer, and quite a few kills for V.

In the specific situation at the breach, V should have cast a wall of fire in front of the breach, and concentrated on it until one of two things happened: First possibility, it gets dispelled by a hob cleric. If e can see which cleric did it, spend one round killing that cleric (the regular soldiers are on their own for this round, but hopefully they can handle it for that long). Then, cast another Wall of Fire.

Second possibility, something big and nasty comes through the wall (Redcloak, Xykon, one of the Xykon decoys, whatever). In this case, V stops concentrating on the wall: it'll still last for 13 more rounds without concentration. V spends this time doing whatever e can to deal with the BBEG (who is probably at least a little damaged from coming through the wall), in whatever manner e sees fit (disintegrates probably aren't a bad choice). Win or lose, this fight probably takes less than 13 rounds, so use any remaining rounds to cast some spells through the firewall, or buff soldiers, or even just shooting arrows (despite being a wizard, at 13th level V will be significantly better than most of the 1st-level warrior archers). When the old wall's 13 rounds are almost up, cast another one.

[Kreistor]

And again, I don't have to say anything, because someone else got there first.

Basically, if you want someone to do something for you, do it yourself first. If you can't prove your case, then I really don't need to prove anything as the defense.

You might want to start with proof that Confusion can have the secondary effects on morale that you demand. You might want to prove that scrolls exist in the library and that others are willing to provide them to V free. You need to prove the Paladins are willing to leave the throne room. You need to prove O-Chul is worth anything closer to the breach than where the Giant placed him. You need to prove that the Shield Wall can hold up against a force 30-60x their number trying to pass through their spaces in one turn.

I don't need to prove anything. I only need to disprove proofs that you provide. You're the one speculating on what you can do, without any proof from the comic that the resources you are using exist. You're the one that set the standard for the actions V can take, and you're violating your own rules. (Ie. I wasn't allowed to use Durkon, since you say V has to do the job, but you're allowed to place him in the breach for some reason.)

[EvilElitest]

And again, I don't have to say anything, because someone else got there first.

Basically, if you want someone to do something for you, do it yourself first. If you can't prove your case, then I really don't need to prove anything as the defense.

1. Countered it
2. You havn't shown any real argument on why my plan couldn't work that i couldn't counter. Sure i wouldn't win the battle, or even hold the breach forever, i'd just do more damage
3. And you still haven't explained teh damn relevence of Napoleon's tatics. Yes, good plan but has very little to do with the battle at hand


You might want to start with proof that Confusion can have the secondary effects on morale that you demand.
That is called logic. The AC guys fled because logiclly they were scared by the massive hoard and had no backup. The Hobs in the same note can be scared when their own guys start stabbing them, running away or just breaking rank, along with Red and Company being crushed after losing their mount and the head hob being voilated in awful ways


You might want to prove that scrolls exist in the library and that others are willing to provide them to V free.
Because it is logically to do so. First i convice General Change to back me up with the order, and their is no reason for the casters not to come other than trying to piss me off



You need to prove the Paladins are willing to leave the throne room. You need to prove O-Chul is worth anything closer to the breach than where the Giant placed him.
1. The paladin's are far more useful at the gate, and as writting is apperently a free action (belkar wrote that letter while running so it makes sense) and they already have the ghost matyrs their is very little reason not to. Also, considering their level, they could very well hold the breach for a long time before dying and then assiting the fight against Xykon

You need to prove that the Shield Wall can hold up against a force 30-60x their number trying to pass through their spaces in one turn.
That's just common sense, and it is a bottle neck by the way with spear and arrow surrport

I don't need to prove anything. I only need to disprove proofs that you provide.
But you havn't, you've just evaded points and then went onto an inrelevent historical disscussion about field tatics.



You're the one speculating on what you can do, without any proof from the comic that the resources you are using exist.
Ummmmmm, no
What resources don't exist, i have the
Paladins
The other wizards
The other soliders
OOTS
All who exist in the comic, i'm just using them differently
If i said
"I order the red dragon to attack RedCloak then i'm using resources i don't exist, but what resources have i made up? Can you proof that?


You're the one that set the standard for the actions V can take, and you're violating your own rules. (Ie. I wasn't allowed to use Durkon, since you say V has to do the job, but you're allowed to place him in the breach for some reason.)
No your allowed to use Durkon, you just have to use him as V. I'm not asking you if you were the commander, AKA Hinjo, i'm asking if you were a 13 level elf evoker who was is trying to hold the breach. By sending a runner to do it, I am not positioning Durkon in a different place, i'm asking him to move. If i said "I position all the paladins on the wall as the battle starts" that would be a different story, but i don't, i send a messager to get them to move to a different place

From,
EE

[Kreistor]

That is called logic.

*Beep* Wrong answer. That is opinion. For it to be logical, you must have a proof of all facts that lead you to a conclusion. In this case, you need game mechanics, since we are talking about a game system. Without those mechanics, there is no response to a particular stimulus, and therefore there is no reliable response. How a group of NPC's respond to that stimulus is not in your hands as the player. You can make a suggestion as to what should occur, in your opinion, but it is the DM's world view that determines the actual response. In a forum like this, there is only one thing we use as a determining factor for in-game effects, and that is the RAW. Anything else is just opinion and unreliable.

So, crack open a book and prove something.

[Forevergrey]

Heroism, greater.

Limited Wish

Create Undead

Create a ghast, cast greater heroism on him, and use the limited wish to give him whatever damage resistance or regeneration the DM would let me get away with.
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1592/108063766b3b08f64ljv3.jpg

[Chronos]

First of all, Greater Heroism is mind-affecting, and therefore can't be used on an undead. Second of all, Create Undead is (surprisingly) a Necromancy spell, which V therefore can't cast. Third, even if e could cast it, it can only be cast at night, which leaves a lot of time with that breach undefended. Fourth, just how long do you expect even a Limited Wish-buffed ghast to last, especially against an enemy with a whole lot of clerics? Fifth, even if your buffs are sufficient to keep the ghast alive, it can only make three attacks per round, and all the other hobgoblins that it doesn't attack will just overrun it and continue charging at you.

[Forevergrey]

First of all, Greater Heroism is mind-affecting, and therefore can't be used on an undead. Second of all, Create Undead is (surprisingly) a Necromancy spell, which V therefore can't cast. Third, even if e could cast it, it can only be cast at night, which leaves a lot of time with that breach undefended. Fourth, just how long do you expect even a Limited Wish-buffed ghast to last, especially against an enemy with a whole lot of clerics? Fifth, even if your buffs are sufficient to keep the ghast alive, it can only make three attacks per round, and all the other hobgoblins that it doesn't attack will just overrun it and continue charging at you.

You've forgotton some important things.

1.The question was, if you had *A* 13th level wizard, not V.

2. Most average, sun-touched DMs wouldn't notice or look too closely at the mind-affecting or cast at night factors due to being distracted by paying jobs and girlfriends.

3. It's cool.

4. It's damn cool

5. It allowed me to make an Iron Maiden reference.

[Forevergrey]

But to be serious, I'd just desperatly drop every single area-effecting spell I could command, if and I say IF I was forced to employ substance over style. :smallredface:

[EvilElitest]

*Beep* Wrong answer. That is opinion. For it to be logical, you must have a proof of all facts that lead you to a conclusion.

Beep wrong anwser yourself, and really dude, your evading quite a few of my questions by the by.
Ok lets break down why i would get help logiclly
1. Their is a breach in the wall. This breach is the main acess point for enemies to attack and is generally not good. The hobs are going to swarm here and break into the city if we don't stop them
2. Casters who are not evokers are needed here for aformentioned reasons
3. The casters are not helping hte battle as well as they should from their spot on the tower, and could do far more protecting the breach
4. V, a trusted member of OOTS, who have Hinjo's trust and is an intellegent enough person that his/her word can be considered very important and also is at the breach says that it is vital that hte casters come here
5. Their is not logical reason for them to stay put that we have seen in the comic
6. General Chang agress
7. Even seeing the breach from above one can figure out that it needs defending


In this case, you need game mechanics, since we are talking about a game system. Without those mechanics, there is no response to a particular stimulus, and therefore there is no reliable response.
What macanics do you lack?


How a group of NPC's respond to that stimulus is not in your hands as the player. You can make a suggestion as to what should occur, in your opinion, but it is the DM's world view that determines the actual response.
But here is the trick though, in this world their seems to be no DM so to speak, the people are only acted as is natrual to them. AKA, if a human ask redcloak to go away, Red will not do so without a good reason. If V send a runner to hinjo saying that is was vital to eat a baby in order to save AC he will not do so because it voliates the paladin code and their is not logical reason why it would save AC. But V asking Hinjo to assist at the breach? Well their is a logical reason, that fact that it is evident that hte breach is a major weak point in the defense and the men need a moral boast


In a forum like this, there is only one thing we use as a determining factor for in-game effects, and that is the RAW. Anything else is just opinion and unreliable.
Incorrect, the comic can be used as source for relaibilty. As can any tatical idea that can't be countered (as you haven't). If i proposed that i would hold the breach by casting lighting bolt on my men, then you can easilty counter that argument based on the logical understanding on how events would occure. Their is a flaw in that plan that you can point out. what flaw can you point out in my plan that you can prove?



So, crack open a book and prove something.
1. What do you want me to prove
2. You still are evading my points
3. And please explain the relevence of the French tatics?
from,
EE
Edit: Oh and forevergrey, the question is if you are a level 13 elf evoker.

[Kreistor]

But here is the trick though, in this world their seems to be no DM so to speak, the people are only acted as is natrual to them.

And you are an authorized expert in what it is natural for people to do?

Only in your dreams. I'm done with this thread.

[Scarab83]

How do people find a way to argue about something after every new comic?

[Forevergrey]

How do people find a way to argue about something after every new comic?

I don't know, but this like every other idea needs about 6 threads about it right now.

[Koretsu]

Wall of Force

Breach that. :D

No muss, no fuss. Just hundreds of Goblins slamming into an invisible wall.

[EvilElitest]

And you are an authorized expert in what it is natural for people to do?

Based on their personality and pass experience, yes. I think i am fully capable of saying that Hinjo will not kill his own guys because they looked at him funny. I know this because i have judged his personality throughout hte course of the comic


Only in your dreams.
Will your arguments have a grain of logic to them. Yes


I'm done with this thread.

So you leave without countering any of the points i made and still haven't explained the relevence of your naplaonic statment. So evanding the question on a whole new level, have fun then.
from,
EE

[Scatman]

Call Japan so they can nuke azure city.
Kitten Blood.

[Snipers_Promise]

I don't think thats possible.

[Scatman]

I suppose you havnt read my signature then.
If I was to really be Vaarsuvius, I would completely annihilate everyone with maximized fireballs on every single square inch Azure City.

[Chronos]

If I was to really be Vaarsuvius, I would completely annihilate everyone with maximized fireballs on every single square inch Azure City.And I suppose that the hobgoblins would just sit back and wait the few centuries that that would take? The question is not "how would you defend the breach if you were a god", as you seem to think, but "how would you defend the breach if you were a wizard with Vaarsuvius' capabilities", and it would take a wizard with Vaarsuvius' capabilities several centuries to do what you're suggesting.

[Inhuman Bot]

2 words, meteor bombardment, target? Guess!

So you think V can cast level 9 spells at level thirteen?

Wall of fire to seal the breach. reverse gravity( Look at those Hobos's fly) insanaity. maybe control undead. Tensers transformation to fight death knight. guards and when the wall of fire wears off. evards black tentacles to slow down several hobos. circle of death to mop up grappled hobbos. waves of fatuige to slow some down. fabricate to fix breach.. mislead so hobos attack the ilusion. mass suggestion to get a couple of the hobogobs to attack each other. veil to make some Hobgoblins look like humans. Issacs greater missle storm could waste the ones that were closests. expolsive runes on the outside of the wall. sleet storm to slow the rest doen. scare as the hobgoblins are hd 1. deep slumber a couple of times. daylight to blind them. and a negitive energy burst to mop up the survivors.

[RedScholarGypsy]

First off: LIMITED WISH

Credit to yoshi927 to actually posting it (didn't see any others before s/he) Honestly though, that was the first thought that ran through my head, and I'm surprised no one else did. Everyone saying Greater shadow conj, what are the odds V would actually have that spell prepped? The seneriao is right there at the wall as it's happening. However, if V didn't have the one 7th lvl slot loaded with LW, I'd take the char sheet and erase that 18 Int. 300 xp for any spell is worth it in this war situation, and I'd hope v'd save that much xp after making the scrolls.

As for its use, that's tough. I would be using my familiar to scout, and when I learned of the Death Knight, i'd have cast LW Wall of Stone and sealed the breach, then give the best soldiers the pots. Also, What's the range on Catapults? If I was V from the get go, and knew about the seige weapons via the Diviners, I'd have prepared Heightened Fireballs and start nailing them if 1840 ft, or 613.3 yards, is enough, though I doubt it. Otherwise I'd make it back to the group while trying to think of how to disable the catapults.

[EvilElitest]

First off: LIMITED WISH

Credit to yoshi927 to actually posting it (didn't see any others before s/he) Honestly though, that was the first thought that ran through my head, and I'm surprised no one else did. Everyone saying Greater shadow conj, what are the odds V would actually have that spell prepped? The seneriao is right there at the wall as it's happening. However, if V didn't have the one 7th lvl slot loaded with LW, I'd take the char sheet and erase that 18 Int. 300 xp for any spell is worth it in this war situation, and I'd hope v'd save that much xp after making the scrolls.

As for its use, that's tough. I would be using my familiar to scout, and when I learned of the Death Knight, i'd have cast LW Wall of Stone and sealed the breach, then give the best soldiers the pots. Also, What's the range on Catapults? If I was V from the get go, and knew about the seige weapons via the Diviners, I'd have prepared Heightened Fireballs and start nailing them if 1840 ft, or 613.3 yards, is enough, though I doubt it. Otherwise I'd make it back to the group while trying to think of how to disable the catapults.

I don't have my PHB, but is limited wish around at that level
from,
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