Battle of the Schools

[Inevitability]

Assume eight 20th-level single-classed human wizards are created from nothingness by some weird Power. Each wizard is specialized in a different school of magic.

Each wizard has no equipment but a spellbook containing all wizard spells of his chosen school.

The wizards do not possess feats or skill points. They do not appear with a familiar. They start with full spells prepared.

The wizards have a single goal: destroy the seven other wizards. They possess full knowledge of each others' spell lists.

The wizards appear on an endless featureless plane with material plane-like conditions, about one mile from each other. Nothing is keeping them from plane shifting or teleporting away to a different place on the plane.

Who will be the last one standing?

[Eloel]

What are their ability scores? Do they at least have a spell component pouch?

Assuming core and 10 10 10 10 19 10 stats (all 10s and minimum for 9th level on int), Illusionist. Go Greater Invisible. The only one that can see you is the Diviner, but being a single-school diviner, all he can do is shoot crossbows at you with true strike. Now, Shadow Evocate: Delayed Blast Fireball to your heart's content.

[Arcanist]

I'm going to cast my vote for Conjurer. Planar Binding an Efreeti and just wish the other Wizards out of existence. Possibly from the safety of another plane.

[Bullet06320]

I'm going to cast my vote for Conjurer. Planar Binding an Efreeti and just wish the other Wizards out of existence. Possibly from the safety of another plane.

I'm gonna 2nd this option

[Pippin]

Well the Necromancer can't die, as per the Hide Life spell.

[Vampire]

Necromancy wins, Necrotics spells so amazing too.
After kill one, Animate Dread Warrior to win =O

[Arcanist]

Well the Necromancer can't die, as per the Hide Life spell.

Not necessarily true. the Necromancer has access to Hide Life, yes, but he has no means to protect it. No abjurations to prevent the Diviner from finding it, however the Diviner has no means of directly attacking the Necromancer.

To this end, I change my vote from Conjurer to Illusionist because the Illusionist has access to Ice Assassin and can make duplicates of the other Wizards.

[Eldariel]

If they're only specialized, there are no major differences. Everyone will ban two less important schools (Enchantment/Evocation-or-Necromancy most likely) and have access to all the key spells - every school has useful spells for most levels so no specialist is really FUBAR'd (even if their spell list lacks the spells from other schools, they have access through some Universal spells such as Limited Wish/Wish, which could allow Psychic Reformation and Wish Resting to acquire a more balanced spell list). Evocation loses Contingency and some great Force-spells but Shadow Evocation replaces Contingency and you can mostly make do, Enchantment mostly loses stuff that's irrelevant in a world of Mind Blanks (though it does have some big minionmancy such as Mindrape, Dominates, etc. and some circumstantially useful anti-caster spells like Ray of Stupidity, Irresistible Dance, Power Words - but again, Mind Blank negates it all). Necromancy admittedly loses Animate Dead/Animate Dread Warrior/Magic Jar/certain other superb spells, but it's still rather bearable.

The battle seems like it should mostly revolve around the indirect power of Conjured/Simulacrum'd minions and the direct power of Abjuration in particular: Disjunction and Dispels are of course going to play a big part (and Maw of Chaos is a good finisher), as well as the various immediate action counterspells and protections (indeed, a Wizard without Abjuration would be completely and utterly ****ed if anyone got anything close to a line of effect on his current location).


Now, if they're just limited to the individual school without access to Universals, the differences become more readily apparent. How far apart are they? Do they have time to start rituals? Certainly, Conjuration with full access to Planar Bindings and company would probably eventually triumph: he has all the teleportation and all the best minionmancy. Though Transmutation could use Shapechange to mimic most of Conjuration/Generic capabilities. Those two are probably the strongest overall.

The most formidable direct combatant would probably be Abjuration: immune to almost everything the others could throw at him and able to dispel all their buffs with Disjunction (and access to offensive Antimagic Fields and such). However, he is relatively immobile and lacks the means to consolidate power so I doubt his raw power could win him the long game. He can't generate minions nor access other schools of magic so all he can do is dispel all enemy buffs and nuke them into oblivion while being hard to kill - solid but nothing to write home about.

Illusion has Simulacrums/Ice Assassins if he has time to make any and those allow a rather wide array of powers, and he has Superior Invisibility which would make him rather tricky to detect but without means to shorten cast times, actually getting the materials and getting any Ice Assassin-type stuff online takes a while. He does have the Shadow Walk-type Plane of Shadows-stuff to stay mostly safe though.

Enchantment would actually be interesting in an environment: Mindrape, Dominates and such are quite potent if the enemies lack immunities and if he's able to avoid Abjuration and overcome some other Wizard swiftly, he could become really powerful indeed, able to draw upon multiples' powers. However, he lacks mobility, many defenses and he's reliant on others for minionmancy lacking things in the plane to Mindrape so overall, his only real hope lies in a swift blitz to Mindrape Conjuration, Transmutation or Illusion fast.

Evocation has access to Contingent Force walls and some nukes but ultimately he isn't quite as strong against raw magic as Abjuration. Streamers is a real good one. He's certainly rather tough to nail down with two different Contingency variants including a Teleportationish Instant Refuge and initially many of the Wizards here are actually killable for him but I doubt he could make a run for it in the long run with limited mobility, rather indirect defense and singleminded offense, no minionmancy. Depending on the details, I doubt he could beat the top tier Wizards but Evocation vs. Abjuration would be interesting far as direct power goes.

Necromancy is a bit weird here. Normally you could get a lot of minions as a Necromancer but here you kinda lack the time and the bodies needed for Undead/body takeovers (á la Magic Jar)/etc. He still has some good magic as direct nukes and some useful protective tools but overall, he lacks some tools. Of note is Astral Projection, an amazing spell but you need to get somewhere else first. With just few Conjuration, Transmutation or Evocation spells, he could become a powerhouse but as it stands, he has trouble making the most of his skills and I expect he'd Ray or Save-or-Die someone and then die or get Mindraped (unless he's got a Clone somewhere else whence he could commence Astral Projectioning and getting **** done). He does have some indirect access to some Enchantment abilities which could help a bit.

Divination is of course the worst here. The school is awesome - but it's an incomplete set of tools. You cannot actually protect yourself very well nor can you attack enemies with these spells. He'd make a great underling for someone in the business for mindcontrol though (Conjuration, Transmutation, Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy). The fact that you don't have skill points ****s this school over further since the few direct things Divination can do involve boosting skill checks and doing things with Epic Skills.


Overall, I'd say the single-school no-universal mages would stack up about as thus (individual placements depend on things and could be argued):
Transmutation* > Conjuration > Illusion > Abjuration > Necromancy** > Evocation > Enchantment > Divination

* Though Transmutation relies on Shapechange's supernaturals allowing him to do others' stuff, mostly (and does he indeed have the ability to turn into anything with no Knowledges and no way to see creatures?). He does have Time Stop to make it a lot easier, however, and he's no slouch in direct combat either. Conjuration has a similar limitation.

** Necromancy gets higher if he can get his Clone somewhere and access some bodies and overall, get his undead machine churning. However, such options were not present in the OP so I'm going by his direct potential coupled with his few amazing tricks.

As always with the high level fights though, immediate personal power in direct confrontation is rather secondary to victory. Of course, this doesn't mean Transmutation would actually win: other wizards would know he's the strongest and could try to team up to take him down. That gets too complex though so I'm not going there.

[Inevitability]

You know, now I kind of feel like running a quick PbP game, just to see who'd win in practice.

[Dr. Azkur]

The one with Improved Initiative.

/Thread

[Inevitability]

The one with Improved Initiative.

/Thread

The wizards don't have feats.


Necromancy wins, Necrotics spells so amazing too.
After kill one, Animate Dread Warrior to win =O

Thank you for your insightful comment. I am, however, wondering where you are getting the material component necessary to cast the spell as well as the ten minutes of casting time required to create a dread warrior, and I doubt the effectiveness of a wizard with -6 intelligence who has trouble handling complex orders.

[Dr. Azkur]

The wizards don't have feats.

lmao Totally missed that line. Apologies.

[A.A.King]

The Transmuter will win. He will be able to go first because of 'Nerveskitter' and then he can freeze time with 'Time Stop' to get set-up perfectly. First Turn Advantage + Time Stop is all you need in a battle of the mages.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

If the Conjurer Plane Shifts, do any of the others actually have any way to follow him? Because if so, he is likely to win by naffing off, setting up whatever kind of hideous preparations he desires, then Scry and Die'ing the others (which he can do quite effectively thanks to accessing the abilities of summoned creatures etc.) I'd say the transmuter is the only other one with any chance, given he also possesses access to out-of-school abilities courtesy of shapechange The Illusionists efforts to make Ice Assassins and Simulacra are rather weakened by the fact she possesses none of the relevant material components (powdered gems and samples of the subjects) nor the means to effectively acquire them. The others lack, I think, any viable way to get at targets that have left the plane, unless one of those remaining turns out to love the conjurer/transmuter above all else.


The Transmuter will win. He will be able to go first because of 'Nerveskitter' and then he can freeze time with 'Time Stop' to get set-up perfectly. First Turn Advantage + Time Stop is all you need in a battle of the mages.
Firstly, while Nerveskitter increases his chances of going first, they hardly guarantee them (+5 initiative against +0 on a d20 - far from reliable against 7 others). Secondly, even if he does win initiative, I don't actually see a way for him to reliably take out all 7 before they can act, given how far away from each other they are. Bear in mind the conjurer only needs to get off a single action to plane shift, and then he has an infinite universe to hide in.

[Inevitability]

If the Conjurer Plane Shifts, do any of the others actually have any way to follow him?

Well, the illusionist can mimic it with Shades or just cast Shadowfade, the evoker has a handful of spells that allow planar travel at a risk (Reality Maelstorm, Prismatic Spray), and the transmuter can just shapechange into something able to travel the planes, but I'm not too sure about the other classes.

I think we can consider them unable to win if this is the case, though. After all, even a 20th-level wizard still needs to eat and drink.

[Pippin]

I'm still looking for a creature that could cast Gate as a Supernatural ability. Once I found it, it's easy for the Transmuter to win this contest I suppose.



Cast Time Stop.
Cast Shapechange.
Morph into something that can cast Greater Teleport as a Supernatural ability. An Archon will do. Warp to one of the other wizards' location.
Cast Reverse Gravity where that wizard stands.
Morph into something that can cast Gate as a Supernatural ability. (???) Create a Gate that travels to the bottom of a lava lake, right above the wizard's head.
Concentrate on that Gate and quietly wait for Time Stop to end. The wizard will be denied any saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. Enjoy the show.
Repeat.


It's probably best to start with the Conjurer.

[Inevitability]

I'm still looking for a creature that could cast Gate as a Supernatural ability. Once I found it, it's easy for the Transmuter to win this contest I suppose.



Cast Time Stop.
Cast Shapechange.
Morph into something that can cast Greater Teleport as a Supernatural ability. An Archon will do. Warp to one of the other wizards' location.
Cast Reverse Gravity where that wizard stands.
Morph into something that can cast Gate as a Supernatural ability. (???) Create a Gate that travels to the bottom of a lava lake, right above the wizard's head.
Concentrate on that Gate and quietly wait for Time Stop to end. The wizard will be denied any saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. Enjoy the show.
Repeat.


It's probably best to start with the Conjurer.

Actually, 20d6 fire damage from total immersion averages out for about 70 points of damage. An undamaged 20th-level wizard with 12 constitution (easily possible with the elite array, nonelite array, and point buy) will have 70 HP by himself, and the abjurer, conjurer, and illusionist are all able to prevent more fire damage on their next turn (the abjurer might even thank you for getting him away from the demiplane).

[Pippin]

Actually, 20d6 fire damage from total immersion averages out for about 70 points of damage. An undamaged 20th-level wizard with 12 constitution (easily possible with the elite array, nonelite array, and point buy) will have 70 HP by himself, and the abjurer, conjurer, and illusionist are all able to prevent more fire damage on their next turn (the abjurer might even thank you for getting him away from the demiplane).
I'm not sure how diving into lava could result in taking XdY damage. Any human body stops existing the second it plunges into lava?

[LTwerewolf]

I'm not sure how diving into lava could result in taking XdY damage. Any human body stops existing the second it plunges into lava?

The rules say lava does 20d6. Average 70. A normal human commoner has 4 hp. They absolutely stop existing the second it plunges into lava.

[Inevitability]

I'm not sure how diving into lava could result in taking XdY damage. Any human body stops existing the second it plunges into lava?

Nope! Behold the Environmental Dangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm) rules.


Lava Effects
Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round.

Damage from magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round).

An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava.

Shame on you for trying to apply common sense to D&D! :smalltongue:

[The Great Wyrm]

But this is D&D. Lava does 20d6 (which is admittedly enough to destroy *most* human bodies)/
See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm

Edit: Ninja'd

[Pippin]

Woops, my apologies!


Shame on you for trying to apply common sense to D&D! :smalltongue:
Don't I feel silly now :v

[GreatDane]

Actually, 20d6 fire damage from total immersion averages out for about 70 points of damage. An undamaged 20th-level wizard with 12 constitution (easily possible with the elite array, nonelite array, and point buy) will have 70 HP by himself, and the abjurer, conjurer, and illusionist are all able to prevent more fire damage on their next turn (the abjurer might even thank you for getting him away from the demiplane).
But without skill points, how are they going to make the DC 80 (10 + ongoing damage dealt) Concentration check to cast the spell that will save them?

[Inevitability]

But without skill points, how are they going to make the DC 80 (10 + ongoing damage dealt) Concentration check to cast the spell that will save them?

I'm fairly sure that rule only applies when you take damage during the spellcasting, such as from an opportunity attack or a readied action. Environmental damage isn't taken over time (weird, I know), it's taken at a single point in time. This single point in time probably isn't the exact moment you are casting your spell.

[Eloel]

I'm fairly sure that rule only applies when you take damage during the spellcasting, such as from an opportunity attack or a readied action. Environmental damage isn't taken over time (weird, I know), it's taken at a single point in time. This single point in time probably isn't the exact moment you are casting your spell.

It's half of last damage dealt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm)so DC45, but it's there (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#lavaEffects) (x damage per round implies continous).

[Eldariel]

I'm not sure how diving into lava could result in taking XdY damage. Any human body stops existing the second it plunges into lava?

Abjurer at the very least should have total immunity to fire damage (which Lava deals) and a Necro/Evo have all-day buffs that should also protect them. Illusionist probably too; Conjurer also has some tricks. It could take out Enchantment and Divination reasonably though. Of course, this assumes you get to act; I'd assume anyone who doesn't go and get superstrong with rituals would gun for Trans/Conj first so if they act first they might just be out before an action (though 1 mile is a long distance; I'm not sure non-teleporters could do much in the very beginning).

[Inevitability]

It's half of last damage dealt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm)so DC45, but it's there (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#lavaEffects) (x damage per round implies continous).

Aaaand I need to put more ranks in Spot. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Invader]

The Transmuter will win. He will be able to go first because of 'Nerveskitter' and then he can freeze time with 'Time Stop' to get set-up perfectly. First Turn Advantage + Time Stop is all you need in a battle of the mages.

Except for the evocation wizards with contingencies against it...

[Invader]

As with all these scenarios the only right answer is that there are to many variables and there won't be a definitive winner every time.

[Inevitability]

As with all these scenarios the only right answer is that there are to many variables and there won't be a definitive winner every time.

I'm curious: what variables are you referring to? I believe I've eliminated quite a few.

And for the record, Contingencies won't be possible unless the evoker has ten minutes to cast it (which, given the transmuter's and conjurer's abilities, probably won't be possible).

[TheTeaMustFlow]

As with all these scenarios the only right answer is that there are to many variables and there won't be a definitive winner every time.

That's probably true, but it's also boring and will thus be ignored.

[ace rooster]

Assuming I have this right, the spellbooks don't contain anyone elses spells, so the wizards don't start with any spells outside thier own school.

I put my money on the conjurer. They can teleport near to the diviner and black tentacles them. The reason to go for the diviner is that he is fairly harmless and his spellbook is the one with see invisibility. Once the conjurer has the diviners spellbook they do not have to worry, and can scry and die at their leasure. The conjurer should never lose (though the battle might stall out).

The illusionist is second for me. Shadow walk keeps him safe, and invisibility is almost invulnerability except against the diviner. Spamming illusions with project image thrown in occasionally can draw out lots of spells against false targets, and rainbow pattern is a SoS that you can spam silently. See invisibility is critical against him, which is why the diviner is the conjurers first target.

As a note, do not go near the evoker. They have a 400' reflex save or suck with an 80' burst. If they even have a rough idea where you are you are in trouble. it takes them 10 mins to cast a contingency, but that 10 mins can be spent safely in a resiliant sphere.

[ATHATH]

I'd like to point out that the Diviner isn't completely unable to attack his opponents- if he's TN, he has access to Sanctified and Corrupt spells.

Remember that none of the Wizards have Spell Component Pouches.

Some Wizards might team up in a Hunger Games-like fashion.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Small nitpick on the lava front: lava's damage is untyped, but any resistance to fire makes you immune to it. Making the Abjurer immune to lava is trivial.

[Jormengand]

Small nitpick on the lava front: lava's damage is untyped, but any resistance to fire makes you immune to it. Making the Abjurer immune to lava is trivial.

I believe rules compendium changed that.

[LTwerewolf]

The issue here is that whatever fight would happen is too open ended. More guidelines are needed to give a real answer.


Example 1: All the wizards are dropped into an arena without notice, and death or flight means loss. There was no time to prepare, even for the diviner, and the arena is relatively small (let's call it 50x50)

This gives one specific type of fight.

Example 2: Each wizard starts in their own area of the world, knowing that they are going to have to seek out and destroy the others in order to win supremacy and keep their life. They have a year to prepare before the first seeking each other out may begin.

This gives an entirely different fight, both within your parameters. I think it would be more beneficial to talk about a specific scenario, or even list out a few scenarios like the above in order to get a better idea.

[Invader]

I'm curious: what variables are you referring to? I believe I've eliminated quite a few.

And for the record, Contingencies won't be possible unless the evoker has ten minutes to cast it (which, given the transmuter's and conjurer's abilities, probably won't be possible).

Just the fact that it'll play out differently each time. Who goes in what order, which wizard attacks which other, what spells are cast and then able to be countered by the next, there's no way to really get a single answer. You'll get a different winner each time.

[Jormengand]

If the transmuter time stops, manages to use some method of getting 5000 GP worth of powdered diamond (PAO some dust into diamond?), and uses the time stop to make an energy transformation field to cast a spell that the transmuter doesn't need to be actually able to cast, such as a summon monster spell (or worse, an epic spell), that could easily be a win. Mostly, though, I think conjuration is most likely. That said, if they are split apart, Divination may be able to win by running other wizards into each other. It all depends how they're played, as there are multiple viable strategies and no clear answer. Let's have a look what they have going for them:

Abjuration: Can throw up an AMF and hit things with a stick if desperate, meaning that if another wizard is damaged you'll be able to win the fist fight: also you may be able to throw up protections against most things.
Conjuration: Gate allows you to use pretty much any school for fun and profit; also you can plane shift off and no-one can stop you.
Divination: You're pretty much the only one who knows anything. Run the other wizards into each other.
Enchantment: Given that the other wizards - except the abjurer - aren't protected from you, dominate monster to the face.
Evocation: All of the hand/fist spells are potentially really neat, practically acting as summons, and also contingency and greater floating disk. Also there's just the fact that these wizards don't have the standard everything immunity, so direct damage in their faces might actually work.
Illusion: Apart from the diviner, you can actually potentially fool everyone, but invisibility and its greater cousin, as well as shadow spells, are your friends. Also prismatic stuff.
Necromancy: While you may not get your cool undead stuff, since no-one is a cleric or a paladin or a druid and can therefore cast death ward, you may be able to hit people hard with negative levels, or just save-or-die. What? It's not like they have good saves or anything.
Transmutation: ETF, shapechange and timestop, PAO to turn rocks into dragons, or even just control weather (hope you prepared endure elements!) can all be fun.

I think Conjuration or Transmutation will win just by cheating and using other schools.

[dextercorvia]

Just pointing out a thing. Shapechange has an expensive Focus, so the equipmentless Transmuter can't do his best tricks.

[ATHATH]

Since no one but the Abjurer has access to Death Ward, spells like Death by Thorns (seriously, what was WotC thinking when they made that spell) can allow a Wizard to one-shot anything (except the Abjurer, Undead creatures, and some summoned creatures) that he can touch. Initiative is key in these fights.

[ace rooster]

As far as I can see the only real defences are invisibility and range. The illusionist and the conjurer should be unkillible, simply because of shadow walk and teleport. If the transmuter gets his precious focus, he can get invisibility too, but there are no summons I am aware of with see invisibility. Calling is not likely to work well, given the caster is broke, has a charisma of 10, has no skill points let alone buffs, and no access to magic circles.
If the illusionist repeatedly finds the conjurer, the illusionist should win out, because they will have been spamming nightmare to prevent spell recovery. Meanwhile if the illusionist finds themself in a bind they can shadow walk to safely regain spells.
The transmuter is a bit of a wild card, but time stop is big. The longest range spell they have is telekinesis, which is pretty good against casters without concentration or freedom of movement. The problem is that both the illusionist and the conjurer can disengage when needed, with the conjurer having a movement speed of 240 (phantom steed) and the illusionist being impossible to find.
Max range award goes to the evoker, who can sunburst you at a range of 1280' to permanently blind you.
Also worth mentioning is acid arrow. It is a long range continuing damage spell, which is hilarious against casters without concentration.

[Quertus]

Assume eight 20th-level single-classed human wizards are created from nothingness by some weird Power. Each wizard is specialized in a different school of magic.

Each wizard has no equipment but a spellbook containing all wizard spells of his chosen school.

The wizards do not possess feats or skill points. They do not appear with a familiar. They start with full spells prepared.

The wizards have a single goal: destroy the seven other wizards. They possess full knowledge of each others' spell lists.

The wizards appear on an endless featureless plane with material plane-like conditions, about one mile from each other. Nothing is keeping them from plane shifting or teleporting away to a different place on the plane.

Who will be the last one standing?

Well, since they have no spellcraft, they have no clue what their opponents can do. So you have to think like someone who's never played or even heard of D&D before.

Also, since they have no skills, they have no concept of various D&D creatures. This is only a tactical issue for spells like monster summoning (which have a set list built in), but a huge hindrance to spells like planar binding or polymorph.

Do they know that they are starting 1 mile apart? Do they know in what direction? What is the spot DC to see someone standing on a featureless plane? Because, RAW, they are taking over a 500 point penalty to see each other due to range. Thus, while escape by "I teleport 127 miles that way" is handy, intentionally finding one another is a bit more difficult. Everyone (other than the diviner) may just wander off and die of thirst before they encounter anyone else. In which case, whoever has ways not to die of thirst will be the last one standing.

If they are newly-created, just because they start with spells memorized doesn't mean that they start with spells known. In this unlikely scenario, those who can win the day with just first level spells are favored. The enchanter can charm the other wizards into giving them their spells.

But the biggest issue is that they are listed as having nothing but a spellbook. These naked wizards are lacking one very important thing: spell components. So, as written, this battle favors schools with useful spells which lack components (beyond bits of their own body the caster is willing to sacrifice), followed by schools that can prevent death by starvation / thirst.

[Inevitability]

If the transmuter time stops, manages to use some method of getting 5000 GP worth of powdered diamond (PAO some dust into diamond?)

PAO specifically says it cannot do that.


This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine.

I'm fairly sure diamond counts as having 'great intrinsic value'.

[ace rooster]

Well, since they have no spellcraft, they have no clue what their opponents can do. So you have to think like someone who's never played or even heard of D&D before.

Also, since they have no skills, they have no concept of various D&D creatures. This is only a tactical issue for spells like monster summoning (which have a set list built in), but a huge hindrance to spells like planar binding or polymorph.

The summons thing is a temporary issue, and the conjurer is able to escape to buy time easily. After that it is a case of burning through his summonings and asking what they do. Once he finds the avoral he pretty much just wins. (90' fly, see invis, magic circle). Bindings are right out though.


Do they know that they are starting 1 mile apart? Do they know in what direction? What is the spot DC to see someone standing on a featureless plane? Because, RAW, they are taking over a 500 point penalty to see each other due to range. Thus, while escape by "I teleport 127 miles that way" is handy, intentionally finding one another is a bit more difficult. Everyone (other than the diviner) may just wander off and die of thirst before they encounter anyone else. In which case, whoever has ways not to die of thirst will be the last one standing.

The penalty only applies if a spot check is required, and a spot check is only required if the DM decides something is "difficult to see". There is no cover at all, so hide checks cannot be made, and I would certainly rule that if the only features are 8 naked wizards, they will not be hard to see from a very long way away. At night everything changes though, except that the conjurer still rules supreme (spam devils). The diviner would become dangerous at this point, if he was still alive and had any way of actually attacking. The evoker has dancing lights for target illumination, but he has to find a target first.


If they are newly-created, just because they start with spells memorized doesn't mean that they start with spells known. In this unlikely scenario, those who can win the day with just first level spells are favored. The enchanter can charm the other wizards into giving them their spells.

Assuming the enchanter can get within 75', without anything to conceal or speed his approach. That gives an evoker 9 rounds to just nuke him, or a transmuter to grapple him (one spell). The conjurer can wander away on his phantom steed. The necromancer blinds him. the abjurer is immune. The illusionist is somewhere else, leaving the diviner, who is probably already dead (or the evoker is waiting to hit you both with one spell).


But the biggest issue is that they are listed as having nothing but a spellbook. These naked wizards are lacking one very important thing: spell components. So, as written, this battle favors schools with useful spells which lack components (beyond bits of their own body the caster is willing to sacrifice), followed by schools that can prevent death by starvation / thirst.
That last section? none of the spells mentioned need material components. If we do go this way though, the illusionist is heavily favoured, because their shadow conjuration spells are still in, while the conjurer's are not. The conjurer still leaves, but has no answer nightmare spam, or the enchanter.


Assuming we give them spell component pouches, another spell worthy of note is Demand. If the enchanter can live long enough to cast it, he can do something like "I suggest you put me in a resiliant sphere", then spam "I suggest we team up against the illusionist/conjurer and abjurer". He can then drop dominates on his 'teammates', and form a group that has a chance against any single other caster. Demand can also force engagements against the two who can kite. Surviving 10 mins might be tough though. Spending time around the guy that messes with heads is probably a loss condition for anyone but the abjurer, so getting team mates without the suggestion is not going to be possible for the enchanter. In the event that one of the enchanters suggestions is broken, the caster in question would probably turn on the enchanter, so the enchanter is not going to want the abjurer on his team.

In the first 10 mins the illusionist probably wants to assinate the enchanter and the abjurer. The conjurer can beat him to the punch though, by summoning an avoral (for the magic circle and safety from the illusionist) and teleporting to the enchanter, before rapidly explaining and teleporting all three somewhere safe. He major creations a gag and bindings to prevent the enchanter charming him, and should be able to clean up from there. The only negotiating position the enchanter has is not agreeing to the teleport, which makes life interesting.

Whether the int 19+ characters know enough to do this and think fast enough is another matter.


Edit: Just thinking, does anyone know of any other global threat spells?

[daremetoidareyo]

But without skill points, how are they going to make the DC 80 (10 + ongoing damage dealt) Concentration check to cast the spell that will save them?

The abjurer has nothing but dispels. They would only dispel things that hurt themselves

[Incanur]

If maw of chaos is allowed, the abjurer sure a way to damage opponents. I tend to think the conjurer would win via telporting away and prepping, but the illusionist could also potentially hide well with invisibility and so on. The enchanter's demand trick could screw over the conjurer if the two know each other. Simply hanging back and hoping your enemies kill each other might be the best approach, though then you get into a stalemate situation.

[Kelb_Panthera]

For completeness sake, the answer is transmuter. Shapechange to zodar, wish as a supernatural produces staff of wishes, infinite wishes starting on turn 3 trumps pretty much anything any of the others can do. The conjurer can get infinite wishes too* but nowhere near that fast.

Ignoring that obvious bit of cheese, I'd probably put it on the conjurer. He has access to effects that are huge force multipliers in a fight, summons, called allies, and their supernatural, spell-like, and spellcasting abilities. Gate in a solar and, even ignoring is wishes, you have full cleric casting on your side.

*not really, IMO. Insert discussion regarding the willfulness of called creatures, the rationale of bartering wishes, and the usual gate spinoff discussion. Let's not derail.

[ben-zayb]

Absence of any equipment aside from spellbook will shaft a lot of specialists, even covering those spells with inexpensive components or foci.

Just that eliminates Shapechange, Ice Assassin, and Astral Projection. My money's on either Conjuration or Illusion, just for the sheer variety of combat options.

[Cosi]

With no material components, the Conjurer wins. gate doesn't require any material components and gives you XP-free wish for infinite power.

With material components, it's a tie as shapechange and gate both take a standard action to cast and give infinite power after a round.

Ignoring wish shenanigans, the Conjurer wins because he can leave and go get magic items to cover his weaknesses. Maybe the Illusionist if he has the cheese to pop out a shadow gate as the travel version is a Conjuration (Creation) spell.

[Incanur]

Maybe the Illusionist if he has the cheese to pop out a shadow gate as the travel version is a Conjuration (Creation) spell.

How would an illusionist 20 do this? That's a shadowcraft mage trick.

[Cosi]

How would an illusionist 20 do this? That's a shadowcraft mage trick.

Arguably, emulating Sanctum Spell gate, which is 8th level outside his sanctum. I consider that a stupid argument, but not particularly stupider than any of the other arguments involving Sanctum Spell.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm telling ya'll, the abjurer is going to be counterspelling using the spontaneously dispelling ACF to dispel magic based counterspell anything coming at themselves. They'll probably immediately team up with the diviner through the use of a non-trained diplomacy check, who tells them when to ready the counterspells.

[Venger]

I believe rules compendium changed that.
yeah, RC p103 says lava deals fire damage now.


Arguably, emulating Sanctum Spell gate, which is 8th level outside his sanctum. I consider that a stupid argument, but not particularly stupider than any of the other arguments involving Sanctum Spell.
That's very clever, and it does hold water since there's no requirement for a sanctum spell to be one you actually know. however, the wizards don't have feats, so that's unfortunately out


I'm telling ya'll, the abjurer is going to be counterspelling using the spontaneously dispelling ACF to dispel magic based counterspell anything coming at themselves. They'll probably immediately team up with the diviner through the use of a non-trained diplomacy check, who tells them when to ready the counterspells.

wizards all dump cha, and no one has skill ranks. how would he do well on a diplomacy check? besides, even taking that into account, they can all do that (the enchanter has the best odds going with this since he can supplement himself with spells) there are pockets in other places, such as voice of the dragon for the transmuter

Dire_Stirge, are ACFs that don't require trading the familiar allowed? the conjurer losing abrupt jaunt is painful, but yeah, I agree he'd probably win, especially with the illusionist and transmuter being neutered via the "no costly components" rule.

[ATHATH]

I wonder which school would win at levels other than 20.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I wonder which school would win at levels other than 20.

The lower it gets, the stronger the conjurer gets in the relative. Minions become more and more potent as the wizards power declines.

[ATHATH]

Hm... What about level 15 for all of them? That would block out Gate and Shades exploits, while still preserving a lot of the Wizards' power.

[Cosi]

Hm... What about level 15 for all of them? That would block out Gate and Shades exploits, while still preserving a lot of the Wizards' power.

The Conjurer leaves, then comes back later with huge piles of minions from planar binding. Honestly, it seems very hard to beat the Conjurer's ability to plane shift to Sigil and start turning downtime into power.

[ben-zayb]

Hm... What about level 15 for all of them? That would block out Gate and Shades exploits, while still preserving a lot of the Wizards' power.

Conjuration still has Greater Teleport , and, if good, even has Create Lantern Archon for fetch/communication/diplomatic tasks and a limited Lesser Planar Ally effect.

Illusion can still mimic teleport too.

[Incanur]

Plane shift assumes the conjurer has an appropriate forked rod as the focus. Do the wizards have noncostly focuses and components here.

[ben-zayb]

A fun and probably unintended consequence of having no skills is that you don't need to make a bluff check when you lie, and a creature can't oppose that with sense motive. Might be useful for some types of minionmancy.

[icefractal]

No Knowledge skills and no prior history (being created specifically for this challenge) makes a big difference to everyone, but particularly the Conjurer and Transmuter.

Can't gate in a Solar for wishes when you have no idea what a 'Solar' is. Can't even Polymorph into a Hydra with no concept of it. Hell - you can't even use Plane Shift, because you have no idea what other planes exist!

Conjurer probably has the advantage, because he and the Diviner are the only ones with a way to learn any info, and Conjurer has a lot easier time acting on that (and in not being killed right at the start).

So probably:
1) Teleport far away from the rest.
2) Summon Monster IX, to get an advisor. Being generous enough to consider "animals/vermin won't be useful" as common knowledge, that gives pretty decent odds for a decent advisor. I mean, the devil and the night hag will probably try to trap you in a deal of their choosing (which you will fall for, having no Sense Motive ranks), but at least only 2/8 of the options are likely to mislead you for ****s and giggles.
3) Assuming the advisor agreed to help, wait for the Summon to end and then Gate to the location of the advisor.
4) Ask them and their friends to give you a quick education about the different planes and the things that live there.
5) Once you've got enough info, go back and slay all the others that couldn't escape, which should be easy. The others that did escape, you'll have to track down, but hopefully you were able to make allies faster and stay one step ahead.

Yes, you quite likely end up as a minion of some planar ruler, but with no Sense Motive and a poor will save, that's about the best you could expect anyway.


Edit: Suggestion about the rules - no spell-component pouch, but all the Wizards get the Eschew Materials feat. Avoids having the contest hinge as much on niche factors, without oddness such as "I pull out some artifacts from my SCP and use those." Note that this still means no Shapechange, no Ice Assassin, etc until you find a way to get Wishes (Universal school, nobody has it in their spellbook) or a source of components.

Also, these need answers:
1) Are the Wizards native to the starting plane?
2) Is the starting plane coterminous with the Ethereal plane? The Shadow plane?

[Seppo87]

No Knowledge skills and no prior history (being created specifically for this challenge) makes a big difference to everyone, but particularly the Conjurer and Transmuter.

Can't gate in a Solar for wishes when you have no idea what a 'Solar' is. Can't even Polymorph into a Hydra with no concept of it. Hell - you can't even use Plane Shift, because you have no idea what other planes exist!

Maybe you're taking the limitations too far? I'm pretty sure the purpose of the rule was to prevent wizards from trying to win with means different from "the chosen school of magic used in the most straightforward and as intended way"
This is what most fail to understand while they seek creative ways to overcome their spell school limitations by achieving extra strategies and powers.
Fact is, doing that makes the challenge useless.
It was clearly designed to determine which school gives the best tools.
It's not a battle-of-the-wizards-who-want-to-win-no-matter-what. It's a battle of the schools.
Assume there are no actual wizards.
What spell set is the best choice for a direct confrontation, that is the real question.

In the case of Polymorph, the wizard should be considered as having enough skill points to use the spell at its intended potential, since wizards are assumed by design to have the required knowledge to make their spells work, otherwise you're invalidating the contest anyway, by going the opposite way tho.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Maybe you're taking the limitations too far? I'm pretty sure the purpose of the rule was to prevent wizards from trying to win with means different from "the chosen school of magic used in the most straightforward and as intended way"
This is what most fail to understand while they seek creative ways to overcome their spell school limitations by achieving extra strategies and powers.
Fact is, doing that makes the challenge useless.
It was clearly designed to determine which school gives the best tools.
It's not a battle-of-the-wizards-who-want-to-win-no-matter-what. It's a battle of the schools.
Assume there are no actual wizards.
What spell set is the best choice for a direct confrontation, that is the real question.

In the case of Polymorph, the wizard should be considered as having enough skill points to use the spell at its intended potential, since wizards are assumed by design to have the required knowledge to make their spells work, otherwise you're invalidating the contest anyway, by going the opposite way tho.

Even being used strictly as intended, the answer is, inevitably, either the transmuter or the conjurer. These two schools have the broadest applicable affects. Transmutation has buffs for days and even conservative use of summon monster gets you effects beyond your own school ala mephits, amongst other ctreature. Being able to spot summon a beastie with an SLA of a convenient effect is bare-bones basics before you even consider calling effects.

If you tighten up even more; barring summons, calling, shadow illusions, and shapechanging magics; I suppose I'd have to give it to the transmuter. Still got buffs for days while the teeth have been pulled from his major competitor.

[atemu1234]

... Now I'm imagining some sort of worldwide Battle Royale between a bunch of T1s...

[ace rooster]

The issue with gate is the lack of xp to fuel it, as well as the normal dangers of binding creatures.
The issue with planar binding is the lack of magic circles and other paraphinalia.

Gating out blind is probably not a good idea, because the conjurer has one defensive spell, no defensive items, and no ranks in concentration. He can literally die because it is windy (forcing concentration checks). It also still doesn't prevent the illusionist casting nightmare on him. Additionally, leaving the plane may count as a loss by default, though staying alive is nice.

One important rules issue the illusionist has is whether a shadow wall of stone casts a shadow? He can only shadow walk from shadowy illumination, which is hard to find on a featureless plane. Shadow walk is his safe haven, so this is important.

Another trick the conjurer has up their sleeve is wall of stone. He can build himself a safe tower with no entrances, but with small windows monitored by unseen servants (needs a rules call). The windows give him cover, so he can make hide checks which do get the crazy range penalties, as well as being able to cast out when required (getting a surprise round). A few faithful hounds can guard the outside, giving some warning of any approaching invisible targets. The transmuter is best equiped to break in (shapechange pixie), but it is pretty safe once he is gone. Not that it has any rules meaning, but he can also major creation himself a telescope.

Sleet storm is a surprisingly effective way of shutting down characters, because of continuing concentration checks and long range. Only the transmuter can get out and still cast. Conjurers have great continuing AoE damage that also blocks vision and movement, on top of the summons.
Time stop is all very good, but because you can't attack the conjurer, the only way to shut them down is to get in melee range as a large improved grab creature, with movement speed limited to 480' per round (even shapechange follows the rules for polymorph, which have a limit of 120' movement modes). If you roll a one on your time stop, you don't cover long range, and max distance is 2520'. The engagement is very dangerous for the conjurer, but the transmuter cannot force it, while the only spell the conjurer needs to keep up is phantom steed. It will take a while, but he can just wait out the shapechanges. The only complicating factor is control weather, but this is assuming no summons. Even a summon monster 1 hawk is good enough to disrupt the 10 min casting time of control weather, and it can cover a considerable distance in 20 rounds. At worst, if things aren't working for the conjurer he can leave.

The other problem the transmuter has is complete imputancy against ranged invisibilty (I think, though I there probably is something with Su see invis). Outside true seeing range, the illusionist is untargetable, but has plenty of shut downs of his own. Did the conjurer just DD in, or was that the illusionist trolling? Burn a spell to find out. The conjurer is very dangerous outside true seeing range, and illusions are long range on their own. The illusionist could be 2400' from you and troll you like this with a first level spell. You can spend an action staring at it to get a will save, but if it is not an illusion that would be the end of you (depending on how you run illusions).

If we want to know about direct confrontations, we need to force direct confrontations. The main strength of the conjurer is that this is hard to do against him if he is only worrying about his own skin, which in this scenario is the only objective. It might be more instructive to consider scenarios with more forcing objectives.

How about a plane that starts 100 miles wide (square toroidal topology, keep things simple. Think final fantasy maps, where both top and sides loop round), but is rapidly shrinking, say halving every day (after 5 days the plane is 3 miles across. After 8 days long range spells can cover the whole plane). Winner is declared when there is only one wizard standing on the plane, (so the conjurer loses if they are not there, but can leave and come back). I think the conjurer wins this by building a fortress, which everyone is forced against.

An alternative is a king of the hills type scenario. There are fountains that are needed for survival. For every hour spent not at a fountain (total, not reseting every hour) a wizard loses one permenant hit point. There are always less fountains than wizards, and in the event of a wizards death, all but one fountain disappears, and the map mostly resets. The last fountain visited by the wizard that got the kill does not move, to avoid penalising casters who are defending fountains. The conjurer finds this more difficult, as his fountains will sometimes disappear out from under him, but he also has the best mobility, and can just get to the next one first and turtle.

A really simple one is simply counting kills, rather than survival, but the conjurer simply wins this from mobility.

Any other ideas?

Edit: Actually, just thinking. Who can trade equal to summon monster spam? No defensive items mean celestial hawks will kill you if you do nothing about them, and they can cover 2400' and still have 10 rounds of hitting you, including AoOs. For summon monster 1, I think the diviner just dies, while the abjurer dies slowly (magic circle will expire without allowing you to rest). The enchanter has to burn an antipithy, which is an 8th level and renders him immobile, to survive. The necromancer can use chill touch to get an AoO, which mostly keeps him alive, and can drop the ocasional vampiric touch to heal. The evoker can clear with magic missile. The illusionist might be able to escape, depending on shadow walk rulings. He is probably ok anyway, being able to ready colour spray if there is only one hawk incoming and going invisible if there are any more than that. The transmuter is born for this.

[icefractal]

It was clearly designed to determine which school gives the best tools.
It's not a battle-of-the-wizards-who-want-to-win-no-matter-what. It's a battle of the schools.
Assume there are no actual wizards.
What spell set is the best choice for a direct confrontation, that is the real question.It's funky from that perspective too. The best tools ... against item-less Wizard 20 opponents, on a featureless plane.

For example, in this challenge, Fireball is pretty damn good. Reflex +6 against a DC 17, most of the Wizards have no Evasion, no fire resistance, and only ~50 hp. If you had feats and could make it Twin Empowered Fireball, it would just one-shot people. Against 20th level foes you might see in a campaign, however, it's not nearly so potent.