Knock-Down Feat 3.5e

[karinrin55]

We all know munchkins, always looking for a way to get stronger.
Well in my group's new campaign we decided that this time we are only using a few selected books that we called "Base Books" which includes: all the "Complete *enter class here*", all the Dungeon Master Guides, all Player's Handbooks, all Compediums, Deities and Demigods (we have more than one pantheon) and the complete rule book (for thoes tricky "WTF JUST HAPPENED AND IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE?!").
FYI we're playing 3.5e as mentioned in the title.
Now, that is what we limited the PCs with, the DM can use whatever he/she likes (we're running two campaigns so we aren't dependent on one person).
Naturally, our munchkin wants to be a strong AF mother-fer so he decided to take the knock-down feat described in Deities and Demigods (he specializes in two weapon fighting and trip for as many attacks and DMG as possible).
When the DM told him he couldn't take the feat a huge argument broke out and we couldn't continue playing.
When i looked up the feat tk end that fight i got even more confused.
It was described as a divine feat but it had normal perquisites.
Then when readjng the description it talked about the deity using it, bht in the intro to the feat section it was told that these geats were originally designed for mortals.
Long story short we were all confused and our munchkin was really mad, now I wanted to ask others for their opinion.
Can mortals take the knock-down feat or not?

[Scots Dragon]

Almost certainly. The feat originally appears in Sword and Fist and was reprinted in D&DG purely because some of the stat-blocks in the book used it.

[Necroticplague]

The section the feat is in is labelled "Feats". There is no such thing as a "Divine Feat". The section starts with saying deities can take them, but does no exclude anyone else from doing so. The general rule about feats is that if you qualify for them, you can take them. Unless the feat has a specific override to that (such as epic feats, which explicitly require level 21), that applies. Note that knock-down is specifically a [General] feat. The srd has this to say on general feats:

Some feats are general, meaning that no special rules govern them as a group. Others are item creation feats, which allow spellcasters to create magic items of all sorts. A metamagic feat lets a spellcaster prepare and cast a spell with greater effect, albeit as if the spell were a higher spell level than it actually is.
So, knock-down is specifically a subset of feats with no special rules governing it, while not being a subset of feats with any special rules attached to it. I'm now sure how this is in any way ambiguous that it falls under the general paradigm of "if you qualify, you can take it".

[Seppo87]

Limiting content based on sourcebooks available is as effective for game balance as limiting content based on the class or feat name having even or odd number or letters.


However,
there are no rules preventing mortals from selecting knock-down

[Troacctid]

As the feat appears in identical form in Sword and Fist, I think it's quite safe to say that it works just fine for player characters. (Note, if you're using it, that there is errata for it in the S&F errata file.)

[Âmesang]

There's also the online (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) version that appears courtesy of the System Reference Document. It does not include the errata from Sword and Fist, which I recall caused some kerfuffle in a previous thread. :smalltongue:

Personally I'm in the "nonspellcasters-should-have-nice-things-too" camp, so I'd have no problem having another player use the feat as is.

(Granted, I'm of the personal belief [or, at least, houserule] that SRD trumps everything.)

[karinrin55]

I completely agree with all of you, but again we agreed on the books above only. Sword and Fist is NOT included there.
Therefore I think our group has justification to deny that particular feat from him (because ORIGINALLY it is not from those books), do we not?

[TheNivMizzet]

The feat is ALSO printed in Sword and Fist. It appears in one of your allowed texts then I believe you should allow him to have it.

[LTwerewolf]

There are deities that have power attack. This does not mean power attack is unobtainable by mortals. Nothing says mortals can't take it, or that only deities can, so no justification outside of "you';re not allowed to have nice things, go play a caster."

[Anlashok]

I completely agree with all of you, but again we agreed on the books above only. Sword and Fist is NOT included there.
Therefore I think our group has justification to deny that particular feat from him (because ORIGINALLY it is not from those books), do we not?

No, you don't. The feat is in one of your legal sources and has no particular prohibitions that prevent him from taking or using it.

If you're not going to let him do it, it's because you don't want him to have it and for no other reason. Don't try to hide behind anything else, because that's just misdirection anyways and trying to trick one of your players by pretending there's some other reason than an explicit desire to nerf him is kind of ****ty.

[AvatarVecna]

A few things worth mentioning: firstly, there's other good methods for getting free trip attempts (Jack B Quick is a particularly well-known build that abuses one particular method), so taking this one away just means he uses a slightly less efficient method; secondly, if your optimizer's idea of Overpowered involves somebody who would spend two feats to be super-good at tripping people, things aren't anywhere near as bad as they could be.

[karinrin55]

The thing isn't only about "the feat isn't in the books we agreed on", it's about a free trip each time he attacks! In the description it says you get a trip attempt, as a free action mind you, every time you deal more than 10 DMG to an enemy.
Now, I don't know how you build your fighters but I'm pretty sure that they deal more than 10 DMG per attack.
Not to mention his abuse of our DM ignoring the XP penalty for multi-classing by taking two other classes (one of which he already broke the requirements for by turning evil) so he could add both his DEX and INT and his STR modifiers to his DMG with each attack.
That's with excluding the fact that he is constantly Large by a means of a magic ring that does not exist in the books mentioned so he could further abuse his reach to trip even more often, has an unobtainable Attack modifier even with all the penalties of two weapon fighting, even if he has the greater version(probably because of magic items obtained in gold he does not posses) and his unwillingness to exept the fact that when the majority of the group votes against him taking the feat and banning it all together he refuses to be a team player ans uses it anyway.
Now, I'm not here to rant about his behavior at the game table, I'm here to ask you if it's fair that with each (and it's truly EACH) attack he gets a free trip attempt which doesn't even count against his attack limmit.
By the way, after introducing him to a less OP way to get free trip attempts (High Sword Low Axe style stuff) he refused by claiming that he would do very little DMG.

[LTwerewolf]

I'm not seeing the problem. In order for him to be getting tons of attacks (and thus tons of trips) requires full attacks, which means he can't move. D&d is a very mobile game, so most often he'll be getting 1 attack in a round. How is that more overpowered than the ability to change into a storm giant, create a demiplane, and completely shut down an entire group of enemies at once all before breakfast?

[OldTrees1]

The thing isn't only about "the feat isn't in the books we agreed on", it's about a free trip each time he attacks! In the description it says you get a trip attempt, as a free action mind you, every time you deal more than 10 DMG to an enemy.
Now, I don't know how you build your fighters but I'm pretty sure that they deal more than 10 DMG per attack.
Not to mention his abuse of our DM ignoring the XP penalty for multi-classing by taking two other classes (one of which he already broke the requirements for by turning evil) so he could add both his DEX and INT and his STR modifiers to his DMG with each attack.
That's with excluding the fact that he is constantly Large by a means of a magic ring that does not exist in the books mentioned so he could further abuse his reach to trip even more often, has an unobtainable Attack modifier even with all the penalties of two weapon fighting, even if he has the greater version(probably because of magic items obtained in gold he does not posses) and his unwillingness to exept the fact that when the majority of the group votes against him taking the feat and banning it all together he refuses to be a team player ans uses it anyway.
Now, I'm not here to rant about his behavior at the game table, I'm here to ask you if it's fair that with each (and it's truly EACH) attack he gets a free trip attempt which doesn't even count against his attack limmit.
By the way, after introducing him to a less OP way to get free trip attempts (High Sword Low Axe style stuff) he refused by claiming that he would do very little DMG.

You have 3 problems here (in no particular order):
1) Yes, Knock-down is a reasonable feat. Yes every hit will grant a free trip attempt just like the precursor feat, improved trip allowed every successful trip to grant a free attack. For the total cost of 3 feats (6 class levels for a Fighter) it is a reasonable but even its all day usage is a much weaker benefit than what the casters got in those same 6 levels. The fact it is an At-Will ability is likely causing you to drastically overestimate its power (Normal human cognitive fallacy).

2) The player appears to be cheating in other areas (How did they get the ring? Why does their attack modifier not match attempts to double check it? Continuing to use the ability after the DM banned it.)

3) You seem to be going after this player in a way that sounds more and more like an OOC problem. You started by initially concluding that the feat was deity only. Then you asked the forums to prove you right. Now you have fallen back on asking if the feat is "fair" (by which we assume you meant balanced since fair would be applying the rules about allowed content to everyone equally).

From your 3 problems I draw this conclusion:
Yes, Knock-down is fair and eventually you will see why, however in the meantime you have a more pressing issue. An out of character conflict has arisen with knock-down being merely a coverstory for the conflict. You, the other player, the DM, and maybe the whole group need to talk about this OOC conflict and resolve it IRL.

[Namfuak]

Now, I'm not here to rant about his behavior at the game table, I'm here to ask you if it's fair that with each (and it's truly EACH) attack he gets a free trip attempt which doesn't even count against his attack limmit.


I think you are overvaluing tripping. It's quite effective against enemies that are your size or smaller and stand on two legs, but tends to lose a lot of value against others. The biggest issue is that if you fail a trip attempt, the other person gets a chance to try to trip you - if that succeeds, you have to drop your weapon to avoid being tripped, so no more attempts that round (I haven't really played a trip focused character, so I may be forgetting a feat that avoids this). Realistically though, unless your group only fights medium or small humanoids, there are going to be fights where at least some enemies will be very difficult to trip, such as centaurs or huge demons. There are also going to be fights that take place in the air, and your DM may decide that tripping has either a different, lesser effect or no effect in the air since the rules as written for air tripping are silly. Some enemies may not mind being prone either, if they cast spells or use a crossbow. All of this still requires that the tripper is close to the opponent and has a full round to attack him - again, flying enemies or enemies using ranged weapons/spells and terrain to their advantage will be the tripper's bane.

All that said, if you expect that your campaign is going to be just fighting humanoids around your size in tight corridors (not an entirely unusual campaign), you might be justified in asking the player to choose a less effective option, it's your group and you know them better than I. But if you take that route, you should just tell him straight that you are banning the feat because it is too powerful for your group, not contrive some nonsense about book legality when you are arbitrarily deciding the books used anyway.

[Anlashok]

The thing isn't only about "the feat isn't in the books we agreed on", it's about a free trip each time he attacks! In the description it says you get a trip attempt, as a free action mind you, every time you deal more than 10 DMG to an enemy.
If that's what you're worried about and you're going to ban the feat because you think it'll be problematic in that player's hands then say that. Trying to weasel your way around it with another justification like "it's originally from an unapproved book" or "it's a deity feat" is really underhanded. Be honest about it.


issues
You seem to have a lot of other problems with the player that seem much more important to talk about, like how he's getting magic items that don't exist seemingly without your DMs approval and all that jazz.


I'm here to ask you if it's fair that with each (and it's truly EACH) attack he gets a free trip attempt which doesn't even count against his attack limmit.
It's a strong feat but I have personally found it to not be particularly abusive.

By the way, after introducing him to a less OP way to get free trip attempts (High Sword Low Axe style stuff) he refused by claiming that he would do very little DMG.
HSLA has a ton of prereqs and requires you to use a pretty weak combat style with some questionable weapons and only gives one trip attack per round with some specific requirements so I can see where he's coming from there.

[AvatarVecna]

The thing isn't only about "the feat isn't in the books we agreed on", it's about a free trip each time he attacks! In the description it says you get a trip attempt, as a free action mind you, every time you deal more than 10 DMG to an enemy.
Now, I don't know how you build your fighters but I'm pretty sure that they deal more than 10 DMG per attack.

Yes, dealing damage is something martial characters can do pretty well. Even without the ridiculous Str/Dex/Int to damage stacking, dealing more than 10 damage consistently is not that difficult


Not to mention his abuse of our DM ignoring the XP penalty for multi-classing by taking two other classes (one of which he already broke the requirements for by turning evil) so he could add both his DEX and INT and his STR modifiers to his DMG with each attack. That's with excluding the fact that he is constantly Large by a means of a magic ring that does not exist in the books mentioned so he could further abuse his reach to trip even more often, has an unobtainable Attack modifier even with all the penalties of two weapon fighting, even if he has the greater version(probably because of magic items obtained in gold he does not posses) and his unwillingness to exept the fact that when the majority of the group votes against him taking the feat and banning it all together he refuses to be a team player ans uses it anyway.

1) XP penalties for multiclassing are a joke anyway, to the point that no sane DM uses them (since they only make XP calculation more of a chore than it needs to be, and XP being a river means that the penalty is pointless even if you do use it).

2) I'm not sure how they're getting all three of those attributes; Str is default, and Int can be from Swashbuckler, but most methods of getting Dex to damage replace the Str bonus, and a lot of the other methods aren't from approved sources (I think).

3) Continuous "Enlarge Person" is a pretty cheap custom item, but if your DM is allowing custom item design that involves continuous/at-will spells, he's already allowing for way more abusable combos than just being big. Besides, there's at least a couple existing ways to be Large all the time (although some of them involve weird races).

4) Him being an ******* about it is an OoC problem; trying to solve it with IC solutions (such as forbidding material) isn't solving the root problem, it's making it worse. The group as a whole would need to talk to him about this.


Now, I'm not here to rant about his behavior at the game table, I'm here to ask you if it's fair that with each (and it's truly EACH) attack he gets a free trip attempt which doesn't even count against his attack limmit.

Yes. Fighters need nice things.


By the way, after introducing him to a less OP way to get free trip attempts (High Sword Low Axe style stuff) he refused by claiming that he would do very little DMG.

That just confirms what I believe I've already stated that I suspected: he's not really that good at optimizing, at least beyond the incredibly easy stuff. On its own, HSLA isn't all that good...but combine it with...
ridiculous Reach (about 20 ft or so from Huge and other reach boosters)
Robilar's Gambit (feat where enemies trigger AoOs by attacking you)
Double Hit (feat that lets you AoO with dual-wielding)
Thicket of Blades (Crusader Stance that makes any movement in your reach provoke AoOs, including 5 ft steps and Withdrawing)
Deft Opportunist (+4 to AoO attack rolls)
Cleave (extra attack when you take someone out)
Combat Reflexes/Improved Combat Reflexes/cheap Everwhirling Weapon (for all the AoOs you could want)

...and you basically lock down the area you can reach; anybody who attacks you or moves at all within that reach provokes an AoO, which grants you two attacks; if both hit (which they probably will), you get a free trip attempt from HSLA, and another attack if that succeeds. If you take out an enemy by getting three attacks against them, you get another free attack against someone else within reach. Sure, your regular attack routine won't be the most impressive thing in the world, but that doesn't matter because your AoOs are where you deal all your damage. Assuming even a fairly easy-to-get 20 Dex, you're looking at up to 18 attacks from AoOs (you get 6 AoOs per round, and each of those result in two attacks, with a possible third). Needless to say, with Improved Combat Reflexes (or Nine-forbid, the generous interpretation of the Everwhirling weapon quality costing 10000 on its own), you no longer have limited AoOs per round, making that 18 extra attacks per round look positively dinky, especially if you can find ways to extend your range even further.

EDIT: But yeah, the really important part is to deal with the OoC problem OoC.

[theboss]

Now, I don't know how you build your fighters but I'm pretty sure that they deal more than 10 DMG per attack.
Not to mention his abuse of our DM ignoring the XP penalty for multi-classing by taking two other classes (one of which he already broke the requirements for by turning evil) so he could add both his DEX and INT and his STR modifiers to his DMG with each attack.
.

The class which provides me Dex to damage is Champion of Corellon Larethian, yes im evil but that was after i advanced 2 levels in this class, moreover, there are an irrata for ex-Champion of Corellon Larethian which says i dont lose the dex to damage after i break one or more requirments.About the int to damage, i still dont apply it cause i havent reached 3 levels in swashbuckler yet.



That's with excluding the fact that he is constantly Large by a means of a magic ring that does not exist in the books mentioned so he could further abuse his reach to trip even more often, has an unobtainable Attack modifier even with all the penalties of two weapon fighting, even if he has the greater version(probably because of magic items obtained in gold he does not posses) and his unwillingness to exept the fact that when the majority of the group votes against him taking the feat and banning it all together he refuses to be a team player ans uses it anyway.


okay wait a sec.. let me unpack this for a moment...
Inlarge person is 1th spell, i think 16K gp (As i agreed with the dm) is pretty fair. my modifers to attack arent so big, i hit 60-70 precent of the times in all attacks.
I accept the fact that the majority of the group dont allow me to take this feat, but again why would i stay quiet when someone does this :

than the ability to change into a storm giant, create a demiplane, and completely shut down an entire group of enemies at once all before breakfast? as mentioned.



Now, I'm not here to rant about his behavior at the game table, I'm here to ask you if it's fair that with each (and it's truly EACH) attack he gets a free trip attempt which doesn't even count against his attack limmit.
By the way, after introducing him to a less OP way to get free trip attempts (High Sword Low Axe style stuff) he refused by claiming that he would do very little DMG.

First of all, my behavior? im not the one who's screaming in reality after being rekted by some NPC's...
Second, try not to reject everything i build because its simply stronger than yours, and as the majority says here :"Fighters deserve nice things".

and for the ones who didnt understand - i am the one who is she talking about.
Im ready for some questions.. go for it

[TheNivMizzet]

I like your style, Boss. Your character seems completely legitimate, but what level are you guys running at?

[theboss]

I like your style, Boss. Your character seems completely legitimate, but what level are you guys running at?

I like yours too buddy, at the moment we're level 14...

[TheNivMizzet]

And you're currently Large or Huge? How many attacks of oppertunity or tripping attempts are you getting a turn? From the sounds of it the wizard is getting upset that they don't get to do everything, because another party member is getting good at something they can do with a flick of their wrist.

[AvatarVecna]

I like yours too buddy, at the moment we're level 14...

Level 14, with the sources listed? Yeah, no, making a solid tripper build is about the only way you'll keep your melee martial guy relevant at that level; at this point in the game, uberchargers are the only other viable melee'ers that don't cast spells, and even then ubercharging is pretty easy to block Hell, with 14 levels and those sources, I could make a viable thrown weapon combatant, if the DM was willing to be reasonable about a couple things (and if he wasn't, I guess I could just go full Hulking Hurler).

EDIT: If the whole party is saying that Knock-Down is unreasonable, present your case, but back down if they refuse. It's not like it's the only way to make tripping viable (although it's definitely one of the better ways). Also, 16k for continuous Enlarge Person is more than RAW suggests it should cost, but those price guidelines are wacky in a lot of ways, and it's not a huge difference anyway (RAW item creation rules says continuous Enlarge Person would be 4k).

[theboss]

And you're currently Large or Huge? How many attacks of oppertunity or tripping attempts are you getting a turn? From the sounds of it the wizard is getting upset that they don't get to do everything, because another party member is getting good at something they can do with a flick of their wrist.

Im currently large and i beileve i'll stay the way untill epic levels.
Attacks of Oppertunity? As my dex modifer : 6.
Before she uploaded the forum i agreed with the dm that i only allowed to do 2 trip attemps per turn(when i do full attack and i deserved every single attack) .. so that would be 2 trip attemps per full attack and 1 when charging.
Wizard? if i got that one right, i think u ment karin55? no, she plays knight..
We dont have any caster in our team expect Wu-jin (did i spelled it right?) but she's new to D&D and most of the time we tell her what she needs to cast.

[AvatarVecna]

Im currently large and i beileve i'll stay the way untill epic levels.
Attacks of Oppertunity? As my dex modifer : 6.
Before she uploaded the forum i agreed with the dm that i only allowed to do 2 trip attemps per turn(when i do full attack and i deserved every single attack) .. so that would be 2 trip attemps per full attack and 1 when charging.
Wizard? if i got that one right, i think u ment karin55? no, she plays knight..
We dont have any caster in our team expect Wu-jin (did i spelled it right?) but she's new to D&D and most of the time we tell her what she needs to cast.

Close, it's Wu Jen.

[TheNivMizzet]

Hmmm. What kind of character is Karin trying to play? Party tank? Then I can see the difficulty when another party member is tripping everyone. And only two trip attempts? That seems like an extreme nerf considering how many enemies aren't affected by tripping or simply ignore it.

[theboss]

Level 14, with the sources listed?


All players handbook and the followers of it (complete warrior, complete mage, complete adventurer and etc..)



Yeah, no, making a solid tripper build is about the only way you'll keep your melee martial guy relevant at that level; at this point in the game


Agreed.. but u need to tell that to Karin55..


uberchargers are the only other viable melee'ers that don't cast spells, and even then ubercharging is pretty easy to block Hell, with 14 levels and those sources, I could make a viable thrown weapon combatant, if the DM was willing to be reasonable about a couple things (and if he wasn't, I guess I could just go full Hulking Hurler).


ammm.. ok?


EDIT: If the whole party is saying that Knock-Down is unreasonable, present your case, but back down if they refuse. It's not like it's the only way to make tripping viable (although it's definitely one of the better ways). Also, 16k for continuous Enlarge Person is more than RAW suggests it should cost, but those price guidelines are wacky in a lot of ways, and it's not a huge difference anyway (RAW item creation rules says continuous Enlarge Person would be 4k).


i know it way too much... but thats our DM and i agree with almost everything he says because in our sitution he's the only one who can be DM and everyone will enjoy, further i respect him as a friend and he is my best friend.


More?

[theboss]

Hmmm. What kind of character is Karin trying to play? Party tank?

Excatly..at least she's trying too...



Then I can see the difficulty when another party member is tripping everyone. And only two trip attempts? That seems like an extreme nerf considering how many enemies aren't affected by tripping or simply ignore it.


I know buddy, but thats my party memebers and i respect their opinions but when it comes to remove it at all thats when i step in..

[karinrin55]

First of all, my game table manners are much better than yours. You don't know how to respect the spotlight, you're not a team player and always look for ways to take someone down yourself.
My so quote so "getting rekt" is for once not true, I was far from death. And second was because your broken ass character has rissen our CR so f-ing high we have to fight monsters and NPCs far too strong for the majority of the team.
And my yelling was not because of what happened IC it was Ofir and your behavior OOC, so don't try and pin that on me.

[TheNivMizzet]

Karin you came to this board telling us that a member of your group was using a feat you believed was broken and only for specific characters. When we told you otherwise you ducked behind it being from the wrong book. Boss here may not be the best person at the table, but he seems to be polite and has answered our questions. He payed 4 times the cost of the ring on his finger for his size to benefit the party. He is playing a mundane battlefield controller and how he wants to roleplay is between you and him. You're playing a tank and I respect that, because it takes a certain person to get between yourself and someone else and endanger your character, but he is doing the same job you are, and just because he does it better doesn't mean you try to tear his build apart.

[theboss]

First of all, my game table manners are much better than yours. You don't know how to respect the spotlight, you're not a team player and always look for ways to take someone down yourself.

1).Table manners? was i cursing u?
2).Respect the spotlight? oh i see... i respect only the ones who repsect me.. learn to accept that.
3).yes, im not a team player but thats how my aligment works (CE), althought i wont betry u i also wont lick your as* and sacrfise my self for u.



My so quote so "getting rekt" is for once not true, I was far from death. And second was because your broken ass character has rissen our CR so f-ing high we have to fight monsters and NPCs far too strong for the majority of the team.

"f-cking high" = nice manners there...
If 5 hp is far from death then you're right!
Broken?? i play melee!!! im not even close to win a wizrd/Cleric/sorecere/Druid and many more casters...
Risen your CR? oh i see. thats your excuse for getting rekt - no our cr wasnt risen...
and it wasnt too strong for the majority of the group, only u and noa were close to death.. Ofir handled it nicly, he got many attacks and still survived..


And my yelling was not because of what happened IC it was Ofir and your behavior OOC, so don't try and pin that on me.


your yelling is because u cant win someone who is in your CR because of you low-opti chacarcter.
I dont pin anything on u, i only say u cant stand the fact that someone is stronger and better for the team than u...

[Troacctid]

16k seems overpriced for continuous Enlarge Person, considering you can get it Permanencied four times at CL 20 for the same cost.

[karinrin55]

The thing is he didn't want to trip for battle control, he wanted it so he could hit people more often. I play a shield slam knight, I daze then trip using like 5 different feats out of a total of 7. He maybe polite here but believe me he's different in person, he is a great friend no doubt, but he will always diminish me, my character and my way of play (diplomacy instead of violence).
I understand your arguments, but the DM and the group's call was banning it.
And Boss, I am opti for what i wàed to be. You are not stronger than me, you are better at doing DMG. That about all your character does, and I wasn't on 5 hp i was more on like 30 hp after falling from that cliff even after saving Noa's life by taking half her DMG.
And as for respecting the spotlight. Every time you attack someone you want a description, when the DM spends more than five minutes on something me Noa or Ofir are doing that does not include you, you complain you don't get to play. Even though in the last session Noa waited for more than half an hour before she could even speak because of what happened with you and Ofir. It's not respecting one another, it's respecting each other's play time.
Lastly playing a CE character doesn't mean not giving a sh*t about your team mates, it's about not respecting authority and acting on your own behalf. I don't mean you have to save me from death because I am your team mate, I mean save me because I might be valuable to you in the future and that applies to all of the other people on the team.

[Sliver]

Hey guys, I think that you got your answer and that it's not relevant to your game anyway... The forums aren't really an appropriate stage for your IRL drama.

Edit: Noa? Ofir? You're from Israel? Makes me wonder if I know you from IRL...

[OldTrees1]

Wizard? if i got that one right, i think u ment karin55? no, she plays knight..
We dont have any caster in our team expect Wu-jin (did i spelled it right?) but she's new to D&D and most of the time we tell her what she needs to cast.

You and karin have an OOC issue that the two of you need to resolve OOC. This forum is unlikely to help with your OOC issue since we are only hearing from the two biased sides and the forum has some irrational biases that make it an unfair judge unless provided with an unbiased account.


However, I want you to consider: Since your group has only 1 caster and they are one that is one of the weaker one and is played by an inexperienced player, your martial character has less reason to try to complete with casters and more reason to try to balance themselves relative to the other martials in your group.

[Troacctid]

IIRC the errata says you don't get an extra attack from Improved Trip when you use Knock-down.

[theboss]

The thing is he didn't want to trip for battle control, he wanted it so he could hit people more often.

Tripping people means they stay put and cant use spells with a move component, thats very helfpul in an encounter.
everthing i do is both for me and for the team.


He maybe polite here but believe me he's different in person, he is a great friend no doubt, but he will always diminish me, my character and my way of play (diplomacy instead of violence).
I understand your arguments, but the DM and the group's call was banning it.


1) as i was saying, i wont diminish u if u repsect my way of role-playing and dont try to ban everything i build simply because its stronger than yours.i never intrerupted u when u tried to use dimplcay instead of violence but u have a problem of when to drop it cause it wont help any of us.
2) Im sorry but thats very unwise thing to say, lets unpack the reasons for u to ban it :
i) cause its make my character stronger than yours and u dont like it.
ii). Noa who is your sister will follow u on every decision as would u.
iii) Ofir banned it because he thought it wasnt on the source books as we agreed. which people here tell u otherwise.
iv) Ron banned it because of the same reason ofir did.



And Boss, I am opti for what i wàed to be. You are not stronger than me, you are better at doing DMG. That about all your character does,


Im not gonna argue who's stronger than how, just think who kills more monsters than u do and more battle-control than u to. just think before writing...



and I wasn't on 5 hp i was more on like 30 hp after falling from that cliff even after saving Noa's life by taking half her DMG.

I dont think so, but again im not gonna argue with u about that because its your word against mine...



And as for respecting the spotlight. Every time you attack someone you want a description, when the DM spends more than five minutes on something me Noa or Ofir are doing that does not include you, you complain you don't get to play. Even though in the last session Noa waited for more than half an hour before she could even speak because of what happened with you and Ofir. It's not respecting one another, it's respecting each other's play time.


Im allowed to ask anything i want, thats not your issue, i will ask whatever i want whenever i want. the DM will decide to answer me or not.
Im not comlaining when it doesnt include me, i do compalin when the DM talks with Ofir/Karin/noa more than half an hour.
Honestly, i dont know whats the issue with Noa but she seems to be unrealted to campgian yet.. and what she does is irrelvant to the plot yet.



Lastly playing a CE character doesn't mean not giving a sh*t about your team mates, it's about not respecting authority and acting on your own behalf. I don't mean you have to save me from death because I am your team mate, I mean save me because I might be valuable to you in the future and that applies to all of the other people on the team.

Playing CE is not a routine patten, u choose how to play CE in your opinion (By the way, thank u Red Fel for teaching me that).
i said before that i will never betry u, but again i wont sacrifse myself for u.
I will decide if you're valuable to me or not, and that applies for the other team mates.


Guys Feel free the comment, the conversion between me and Karin can be made in 4 eyes...

[theboss]

Hey guys, I think that you got your answer and that it's not relevant to your game anyway... The forums aren't really an appropriate stage for your IRL drama.

Edit: Noa? Ofir? You're from Israel? Makes me wonder if I know you from IRL...

You are right, im doing it for u guys to comment..
and yes, we're from Israel.
IRL?

[OldTrees1]

IIRC the errata says you don't get an extra attack from Improved Trip when you use Knock-down.

Whether that errata is applicable/obsolete or a good/bad ruling is debated. But let's not dive into that argument at this time.



The thing is he didn't want to trip for battle control, he wanted it so he could hit people more often. I play a shield slam knight, I daze then trip using like 5 different feats out of a total of 7

3 feats (Improved Shield Bash, Shield Charge, Shield Daze) to get 2 debuffs on your attacks vs 3 feats to get 1 debuff (possibly triggering +1 attack depending on which version) on his attacks. Those sound roughly balanced to me. They should take about as much time to do as well since you have 3 rolls(attack, trip, fort save) vs his 2-3 rolls (attack, trip, depending on ruling maybe another attack). So I don't think this Knock-down feat is the issue. Address the real issue with theboss and your DM.

[Troacctid]

Tripping people means they stay put and cant use spells with a move component, thats very helfpul in an encounter.
everthing i do is both for me and for the team.

There's no such thing as a "move component".

[OldTrees1]

You are right, im doing it for u guys to comment..
and yes, we're from Israel.
IRL?
(IRL = In Real Life)

This forum cannot help when only being provided with 2 biased accounts of an OOC issue.
1) OOC issues are not resolved by "Winning" an argument. Especially when an easily discounted 3rd party is the one claiming who won.

2) This forum has biases that affect its judgement. Sometimes an unbiased account can help tone down those biases to the point of a passably wise judgement. But in this case we only have your two biased cases.

You really need to both talk with your DM. Actually you need to do more than that, you need to be on each other's sides and trying to understand why they have these grievances if you hope to resolve this deep an OOC conflict.

[theboss]

There's no such thing as a "move component".

maybe i spelled it wrong, i meant when u have to move your hands (or something else) while casting the desired spell.

[OldTrees1]

maybe i spelled it wrong, i meant when u have to move your hands (or something else) while casting the desired spell.

Somatic components (the hand/arm gestures) are not impeded by being on the ground.

[karinrin55]

Again Itzik, your measure of strong is different than mine. And I do the same amount of battle control or even more than you, I'm not only tripping, I'm dazing opponents and making them shaken while also giving you guys buffs to your AC and keeping you alive by taking DMG from you. My way of being strong is to be helpful to the team and still holding my own against BALANCED NPCs (which I can do if given the opportunity), yours is probably how fast you can kill someone.
So this:


Im not gonna argue who's stronger than how, just think who kills more monsters than u do and more battle-control than u to. just think before writing...

Is irrelevant.
Now, I didn't ban Knock-Down because it made you "stronger than me" (I couldn't give a rat's a$$ is you are). I wanted to ban it because it's broken AF and not on the books we agreed were okay to use (it originated in Sword and Fist), and Noa doesn't automatically agrees with everything I say and has her own mind and opinion. The reason she agrees with me ON THIS MATTER is because we both think everyone in the group should be at the same level of optimization or power so we could all enjoy the game.
When you kill an enemy in one turn it isn't fun for any of us except you.
But all of that is besides the point, the feat is broken, the majority decided to ban it and that was it. I don't ban everything in your build, especially not because it makes you "stronger" than me. We banned trip master because it's from 3e and it's 3.5e rework was not in the books we agreed on. We're banning Knock-Down for the same reasons, you have many more ways to trip easily. PICK ANY OF THEM!

[Sliver]

We banned trip master because it's from 3e and it's 3.5e rework was not in the books we agreed on. We're banning Knock-Down for the same reasons

The knockdown rework is within allowed sources and you admitted that there are other reasons why it is banned. Because of balance issues. Why would you say otherwise?

I do not think it is appropriate to refer to someone by their real names when they have chosen their own username for the forums.

I also don't think that you should continue this discussion here. We can't help you, and even if we did know the situation, it would do little to help. Reach a compromise between yourselves, in private.

Making it public only means that both of you are less likely to try seeing the other's point of view and work it out, because it will make you feel as though you have admitted defeat. It won't, it will show that you are mature. But I doubt that's how you will see that...

[karinrin55]

I do not think it is appropriate to refer to someone by their real names when they have chosen their own username for the forums.

He referred to me by my real name, my forum name is karinrin55 as you can see. And I know that might sound childish.
I referred him that way out of habit, I talk to him almost daily.


The knockdown rework is within allowed sources

None of the people in the group could find that feat in the allowed sources, But you can enlighten me by referring me to the book in which it is mentioned.

Thank you all for your comments, I do believe me and theboss have a few things to settle IRL with the DM and the rest of our group.

[Sliver]

None of the people in the group could find that feat in the allowed sources, But you can enlighten me by referring me to the book in which it is mentioned.

You started the thread by saying that you found it in deities and demigods, but were confused because it seemed like it's a divine feat. It's a general feat. Consider yourself enlightened.

[Necroticplague]

On the topic of balance, I'd just like to point out that Wild Shaping (or Polymorphing) into a wolf does something similar 9 levels ago.When someone only a little over third of your level can do something, it's can't be really overpowered for you to have an improved version of it. And going from "with a bite attack" to "with all attacks" seems like a reasonable progression over 9 levels.

[karinrin55]

You started the thread by saying that you found it in deities and demigods, but were confused because it seemed like it's a divine feat. It's a general feat. Consider yourself enlightened.

I thought you were talking about trip master and not knock-down :smalleek:

[Sliver]

You responded to "The knockdown rework is within allowed sources", which I said in response to your claim that it was banned for the same reason as trip master. You quoted that part. Why would you think I'm talking about trip master?

[karinrin55]

Sorry Silver, I'm a bit distracted. I'm simultaneously doing five more things that I just skim through what's written :smallfrown:

[nyjastul69]

Tripping people means they stay put and cant use spells with a move component, thats very helfpul in an encounter.
everthing i do is both for me and for the team.

...


Tripping a character does not prevent spell casting.

[theboss]

I'll replay to everyone and by that end the thread as far as im concerned.

As for you Karinin55, I dont know what's your problem with me, but what i do know is you dont like the fact i do something better than what your character does mainly and more..
By that, u wish to try ban almost everything i build and even came up with a thread that u wished they'd be agree with you, people here say otherwise and u still dont want to accept it cause "Its broken, Makes out CR grow.." and some other nonsense...
Now, i talked with a veteran member in our group and he said that this urge to ban something when another member dont want it to happen makes the game unlikable to play. and by that as far as his concerns i can take this feat.
As for our DM, i will talk to him cause he has the final say here and i beileve i'll make a deal with him.
thank u guys for the comments and i hope that some day she would understand that this feat is legit and wont try to ban everything i do. (XP pently for multi-classing, Master Trip , Champ of C.L and more)

[theboss]

Tripping a character does not prevent spell casting.

Didnt knew that, and that's just make my point that this feat is legit.
EDIT: wait, what if the spell require to move your hand, or making some kinda movement. cause i know pisonic dont, but as for the others i think that they have some movement rquirment for some of the spells

[Sliver]

theboss, if you want someone to agree with you, or at least listen and respect your opinion, don't patronize them. karinrin55's concerns may not be entirely invalid, and neither are yours. Neither of you have conducted yourselves maturely here.

[Necroticplague]

EDIT: wait, what if the spell require to move your hand, or making some kinda movement. cause i know pisonic dont, but as for the others i think that they have some movement rquirment for some of the spells

Somatic components are in no way interfered with by being prone. Of course, if they're prone as a result of knock-down, they're within range for you to AoO when they cast.

[Sian]

Didnt knew that, and that's just make my point that this feat is legit.
EDIT: wait, what if the spell require to move your hand, or making some kinda movement. cause i know pisonic dont, but as for the others i think that they have some movement rquirment for some of the spells

Is it impossible to make a "thumbs up" gesture while laying down? ...

[theboss]

theboss, if you want someone to agree with you, or at least listen and respect your opinion, don't patronize them. karinrin55's concerns may not be entirely invalid, and neither are yours. Neither of you have conducted yourselves maturely here.

I stated before and i'll state again : i wont disrepsect anyone unless he has disrespected me..
What are my invalid concerns?

[nyjastul69]

Didnt knew that, and that's just make my point that this feat is legit.
EDIT: wait, what if the spell require to move your hand, or making some kinda movement. cause i know pisonic dont, but as for the others i think that they have some movement rquirment for some of the spells





Prone
The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.


Being tripped makes one prone. Being prone doesn't prevent somatic components. It doesn't stop much at all really.

ETA: If being prone prevented spell casting the value of tripping would increase dramatically.

[theboss]

Is it impossible to make a "thumbs up" gesture while laying down? ...

it is possible, but it'll trigger an attack of oppertunity.

[OldTrees1]

I stated before and i'll state again : i wont disrepsect anyone unless he has disrespected me..
What are my invalid concerns?

I understand you read that fast, so I will clarify it:
He didn't say you had invalid concerns, he said you are best off if you recognize karinrin55 has valid concerns too. If you two continue to disrespect each other then you both lose. It takes 2 to have a respectful resolution to you conflict.

[nyjastul69]

it is possible, but it'll trigger an attack of oppertunity.

Why would this provoke an AoO? I don't see anything that would trigger one.

[theboss]

I understand you read that fast, so I will clarify it:
He didn't say you had invalid concerns, he said you are best off if you recognize karinrin55 has valid concerns too. If you two continue to disrespect each other then you both lose. It takes 2 to have a respectful resolution to you conflict.

The problem is that we tried, everything is ended up with her yelling, me getting mad and no solution. and i know you problay wont beileve me but i think she's doing it on purpose (try to ban almost everything my character do).

[theboss]

Why would this provoke an AoO? I don't see anything that would trigger one.

I dont know any RAW reasons but thats how we are playing...

[nyjastul69]

I dont know any RAW reasons but thats how we are playing...

Does any and all movement provoke an AoO while prone or just a thumbs up sign?

[Sliver]

If you aren't casting defensively at level 14, you are doing something wrong.

The thumbs up gesture would generally be a free action that does not provoke.

If feel like you are being targeted by her and nobody else supports you, either you are mistaken, or the rest of the players and DM are too awkward about voicing their concerns and you may actually be a problem player without realizing it. (Or many other reasons) Strangers can't help you solve a communication problem, only tell you that you need to communicate in order to solve it.

[OldTrees1]

The problem is that we tried, everything is ended up with her yelling, me getting mad and no solution. and i know you problay wont beileve me but i think she's doing it on purpose (try to ban almost everything my character do).

Yes it is hard, and you probably won't believe me but she is likely not doing it on purpose. However you will never hit the bulleye by trying to saw your leg off.

There is no path to victory that does not involve the two of you sitting down with your DM and trying better than your best to see where you are wrong. Yes, I know that sounds strange, but the only way the two of you can resolve this conflict is if you each honestly tries to see it from the other person's point of view. So sit down, act mature, and treat each other like friends rather than vicious politicians.

[theboss]

Yes it is hard, and you probably won't believe me but she is likely not doing it on purpose. However you will never hit the bulleye by trying to saw your leg off.

There is no path to victory that does not involve the two of you sitting down with your DM and trying better than your best to see where you are wrong. Yes, I know that sounds strange, but the only way the two of you can resolve this conflict is if you each honestly tries to see it from the other person's point of view. So sit down, act mature, and treat each other like friends rather than vicious politicians.

You right, i hope this time we can settle something which is agreeable from both sides...

[HurinTheCursed]

Your party seems to rely mostly on lower tiers classes, the most powerful classes in the hands of new players and there seems to be OOC problems so that some are nerfing others.

- For me it seems legit.
- Regarding balance, if natural spell and leadership are on the table, no martial oriented feat is going to be overpowered in absolute value. From range, grease makes multiple enemies prone and slowed and flat-footed by level one.
- As you two seem to compare who has the biggest, relative power may be a concern. It seems the concensus on the board for now is that the characters are more or less balanced with each other, so maybe one or both of you are worried about being better than the other instead of being better than the monster.
- I could see the problem if a character gets outshined by a single another in every field. Usually it happens if players don't discuss when building their character, that two play the same role and one is better at optimization and at tactics than the other.
- A character few levels ahead could increase the group CR. If a single character is too powerful, the DM could put stronger ennemies to challenge the group. But since both of you say you contribute, that's not what happens here.
- You are in the same team. Buffing the team helps, debuffing ennemies contributes, limites ennemies tactics is useful, so is killing ennemies. By level 15, our sorcerer casting haste turn 1 often makes her the biggest contributor to the fight.
- I don't get why one-shotting enemies would be problematic. If one uses entangle, or puts some nasty conditions on some enemies or turns undead, he is essentially putting ennemies out of the fight for some time, it's the same to me.
- If a character could repeatedly make all enemies useless at once, I would understand how would hurt the fun of others. Not the case here. Locking ennemies might be hurting some DM's fun, but it's another story.
- If a character didn't contribute to the fights and the roleplay and isn't useful for using skills, I could see a problem in making the group weak for the challenge, by being dead weight. It doesn't seem to be the case here.

You need to talk about what are each other intends, why you feel one is hurting the fun of the other, why is some behaviour problematic according to you, ... and separate IC problems from OOC problems.
Good luck.

[Lans]

From the looks of the feat, you don't have to deal the damage with a melee weapon. They just need to be in melee

[theboss]

From the looks of the feat, you don't have to deal the damage with a melee weapon. They just need to be in melee

what? u cannot trip from a distance.. if that's what u meant

[OldTrees1]

what? u cannot trip from a distance.. if that's what u meant

"In melee" means not at a distance.
"Melee weapon" means sword/spear/club/other weapon designed for melee range.
Lans' reading was that you could use a non melee weapon to deal the 10 damage necessary provided you were within melee range.

[Lans]

"In melee" means not at a distance.
"Melee weapon" means sword/spear/club/other weapon designed for melee range.
Lans' reading was that you could use a non melee weapon to deal the 10 damage necessary provided you were within melee range.

My idea was the incarnates flame mantle, doesn't seem broken, and it gives cool effect.

Or a wizard with flame shield.

[OldTrees1]

My idea was the incarnates flame mantle, doesn't seem broken, and it gives cool effect.

Or a wizard with flame shield.

I don't think those specific example were intended or even in the spirit of the feat, but I do agree with your assessment about balance and cool. I could go either way on allowing/not allowing those.