View Full Version : Counterspell Vs Damage.

2007-06-19, 04:12 PM
I'm planning a Counterspelling Sorceror.

Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Improved Counterspell, reactive Counterspell, ... Something along these lines.

But then I wondered: Why just damage the caster instead? You'll help take him out, force a concentration check and might hit surrounding mooks.

Is it worth to use spells for countering, or should you hit the wizard with 10d6 fireballs for an average 45 concenctration check (27 on a succesfull save) while hitting his meatshield on the go.

Is counterspelling a good option? Or is disintegrate all the counterspell you'll ever need?

Also tips on a build/feat/spells always welcome.

2007-06-19, 04:17 PM
My reply (off the cuff) would be that it depends on how reliably you plan to be able to beat the enemy spellcaster's initiative. Obviously, if you hit him first, you can force concentration checks and don't need to worry about counterspelling. If he hits you first, you have to worry about the exact same situation in reverse. Counterspelling is a great way to avoid taking damage from him at all.

2007-06-19, 04:22 PM
Is there any feat/ability/item that allows counterspelling as an immediate action?

2007-06-19, 04:57 PM
The Ring of Spell Battle has a times per day ability like that.

2007-06-19, 07:52 PM
That's what reactive counterspell does, although you give up your next turn to do it.

I won't debate the merits of counterspelling vs. fireballing the caster. Instead, I'm going to relay the comments my brother made in one of the maximized time stop + maximized cloudkill + forcecage arguments.

"So if every spellcaster just wanders around with all of these spells memorized all the time because nobody in their right mind would fail to prepare them, why not just have your own party's wizard counterspell everything?"

2007-06-19, 07:58 PM
Because at high levels casters use Quicken Spell (feat or rod) - counterspelling is a standard action - and Time Stop ?

2007-06-19, 08:02 PM
Because at high levels casters use Quicken Spell (feat or rod) - counterspelling is a standard action - and Time Stop ?

If you beat their initiative and prep an action you'd be fine, though.

2007-06-19, 08:13 PM
If you beat their initiative and prep an action you'd be fine, though.

And why on earth would you be doing that when you could be Cloudkill/Forcecage/etc.ing them?

2007-06-19, 08:14 PM
And why on earth would you be doing that when you could be Cloudkill/Forcecage/etc.ing them?

Because you don't want to be a cookie-cutter wizard?

2007-06-20, 06:03 AM
It depends a bit on the level you play. At low level, no caster is going to make that concentration check. At mid to high level, a DC 27 concentration check stops being that much of a problem. After level 10 or so the casters will probably have 50% or better chance of making the check. Also, the chance of them making their save improves.

At higher levels, it kind of depends on your guess of the enemies saves. If you think he'd make the save, counterspell. If you think he wouldn't, fireball. (Or chain lightning or something, for a little more boom, of course)

There is nothing wrong with a sorcerer that counterspells a lot, as long as you also have other strategies.

Oh, and for spells you can't cast yourself, just fireball, don't counterspell with dispel magic, just fireball. As long as you're not of a much higher level than the other caster, the chance of your counterspell failing is probably not worth the risk.

On the other hand, there are a lot of monsters with low caster level but high saves and concentration. (Dragons for example) There a dispel magic counterspell might be the best option if you don't have the spell itself.

Also note the difference between melee casters, who already need the concentration to cast on the defensive, and other casters who may sometimes skip concentration.

The Mormegil
2007-06-20, 03:13 PM
Rapid Mtamagic + Heightened Spell.
Just to mention.

That, with possibly Elven Spell Lore, Arcane Mastery, Improved Counterspell, Reactive Counterspell, and lots of CL bonuses is what the counterspeller is.
He doesn't fail his dispel magic check. He just doesn't. Add mastery of counterspells from Archmage and reaving dispel to get that nasty sorceror down with his own spells. Use magic rings of counterspelling or the like to keep that cleric quiet for awhile, then focus on him and kill him.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-20, 03:31 PM
You might be interested in the Countercaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27152).

2007-06-20, 03:42 PM
Here are all the big counterspell boosters. May I suggest Battlemagic Perception (a 3rd lvl spell that allows you to coutnerspell as a free action, afterwards the spell is discharge), Arcane Mastery (take 10 on dispel and sr checks), and Planar Touchstone Catalogue of Enlightment and get the Inquisition Domain power (+4 untyped bonus to dispel)


Inquisition Domain, +4 untyped bonus to dispel. Get via cleric, contemplative, or the planar touchstone feat.
Master Specialist 3 gives .5*Class level competence bonus to dispel checks
IotSV 6 gives +4 to dispel vs abjurations
IotSV 7 has the kaledioscope of doom, doesn't help dispel, yet all your bonus to dispel can effectively allow you to kill someone once per day.
IotSV veils while not dispeling can effectively prevent magic, such as the violet veil
Divine Defiance feat in Fiendish Codex II requires turn/rebuke undead and a divine caster level of 3. Can spend a turn/rebuke attempt to try to counter a spell as an intermediate action
Archmage - high arcana Mastery of Counterspelling
Arcane Mastery Feat, Take 10
Improved Counterspell,
Reactive Counterspell
Epic Feat - Epic Counterspell
Chain Spell combine with Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic to take down 20 buffs at once during your round.
Arcane Thesis (Dispel followed by you retraining it to be Greater Dispel Magic), PHB2: +2 to caster level for this spell, plus any metamagic you apply such as chain is 1 spell lower.
Elven Spell Lore gives a +2 Untyped Caster Level Bonus to Dispel Checks (since it is a caster level bonus it caps at 10 for Dispel and 20 for Greater Dispel) Only applies to Dispel and Greater Dispel Magic.
Spellcaster's Bane, swift spell, gives +2 to dispel checks.
Soultouched Spellcasting, Gives essentia invested into this feat as a insight bonus to dispelling magic and overcomming spell resistance.

Every dispel magic build needs this spell.
Battlemagic Perception, lasts 1 hour/level, Wiz/Sorc/Cleric 3. Can counter a spell as a free action, if successful you lose battlefield perception.


Finally while you can normally prevent counterspelling by removing the ability to identify spells (via removing all material, verbal, and somatic components), the spells Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic though still allow you to counter these spells, for they are a blanket counterspell and rely on a caster level check to work.


Combine these two feats and spell, will allow you to counterspell as a free action spells that are cast up to 3 caster levels higher than your caster level. Add some of the other tricks and its even higher.

I also recommend if you do this to take the chain feat, and do a chain dispel on your enemies to remove their buffs and items on your turn. (Prevent them from casting via counterspell on your free action and/or immediate actions.) Without buffs and items the rest of the party will eat up your enemies like they are cream cheese.

2007-06-20, 03:42 PM
Get at least one level of Archmage for mastery of counterspelling. Then your "counterspells" become attacks. Very handy.

2007-06-20, 03:44 PM
Battlemagic Perception is in Heroes of Battle
Planar Touchstone Catalogue of Enlightment is in the Planar Handbook
Inquisition Domain Complete Divine and the Spell Compedium
Arcane Mastery Complete Arcane
Chain Metamagic Complete Arcane