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Scatman
2007-06-19, 04:14 PM
I myself think monks own the playing field.1d20 fists beats any barbarian any day.They also get DR and become an extraplanar creature at 20.Monk=T3h Pwnzars.

Saph
2007-06-19, 04:20 PM
Oh no.

*puts head in hands*

Not again. Now we're going to get:

- 20 posts about how much monks suck
- 30 posts about how much wizards/clerics/druids rule
- 40 posts claiming how awesome monks are in their game
- 150 posts endlessly arguing the specifics of who would win in a monk vs. x PvP match, with both sides constantly changing the rules.

Didn't we just have one of these threads? Do we have to do it all again? Can't we just leave off the PvP stuff? Please?

- Saph

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-19, 04:22 PM
No...just no.
A) It DR 10/magic. That means it doesn't block enough at the levels your playing at to really help, and that a plus 1 weapon negates it. Most highlevel monsters alos have this little ablity that says that there Natural attacks/ attacks in gereal are considered magic weapons.

B) 2d10 is nothing. Barbarians/fighters regulatly deal more than 30 on every attack, and they ac hit things because they have a high BAB.

So, no monks aren't gods of meele. They can be fun to play, but that doesn't mean that they are awesome in any way.

Edit: Here's a link to a previous discussion.
So why is the monk weak? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45165&highlight=monks)

Morty
2007-06-19, 04:24 PM
Generally, wizards own everything. It's been said 321 times and will be said again. And now we have yet another "Wizards rule-no, they don't-yes, they do-etc." thread.
And I'm absolutely sure Vow of Poverty and Antimagic Field will appear here eventually.

Jack Mann
2007-06-19, 04:27 PM
Heh heh heh.

Yeah, monks do look pretty awesome, when you first see them. I remember when I first saw the monk class, and I thought, "Hey! That seems pretty cool!"

Unfortunately, monks just aren't good at much.

Yes, they get 2d10 (not 1d20, in 3.5) damage with their unarmed strikes. But what you have to realize is that this just isn't that much damage. It's only four more damage than a greatsword (11 average damage compared with 7 average damage). This is more than made up for by the barbarian's superior strength (+4 strength bonus at level twenty yields +6 damage with a greatsword), the barbarian's ability to power attack for a 2-for-1 bonus, and his higher base attack bonus, allowing him to sink more into power attack while still having a chance to hit.

Consider also that the monk's abilities don't add up to much. He has a lot to offer him increased mobility, but his primary attack forces him to stay in one place.

Because of their MAD (multiple ability dependency), they can't afford to raise their relevant stats as high as other classes. They need wisdom and dexterity for armor class, strength for damage (if not to hit), and constitution so that they don't die. This makes it difficult for a monk to boost any particular aspect without having a tougher time keeping the others up. If he concentrates on strength and constitution, he's easy to hit and his DCs are too low. If he concentrates on dexterity and wisdom, he does very little damage on his hits, and can't take much damage without dying.

Their low BAB also makes it difficult for them to use some of the special attack forms they get as bonus feats. They aren't very good at grappling (lower strength than the primary combatants, lower BAB), nor are they particularly good at disarming (lower attack bonus, plus the penalty for using a light weapon).

Monks are generally all right at surviving. They don't have great armor class (compared to a fighter of their level, say), but they have reasonably good saves and spell resistance. However, this doesn't allow them to do a great deal to help the party.

Sometimes, someone will suggest they make good mage-killers, but honestly, they're not very good at that either, due to the number of options a wizard has to avoid attackers, as well as spells that don't allow the monk a saving throw (the spell resistance is actually quite easy to get past).

Monks are actually the weakest of the core classes, and tend to be weaker in a PvP (and much more importantly, a normal campaign) scenario.

Rad
2007-06-19, 04:33 PM
It is not hard to pull off a couple hundred damage per hit if you put yourself into it. 1d20 is not that much, also considering that in 3e characters have a lot of HP.

Not to mention a wildshaped druid that can hit much harder than 1d20 AND cast spells...

Not to mention Force Cage if the wizard has money to spare

Saph
2007-06-19, 04:39 PM
Here's the link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45165) for the previous thread with people arguing about monks. It went on for two weeks straight and ran to six hundred posts.

I'd really been hoping that the "Monks suck/are broken!" argument had finally died . . .

- Saph

Jack Mann
2007-06-19, 04:42 PM
No chance, Saph.

You see, new people will continue to join the forums, and many of them will not have seen or participated in the previous debates. They will, at some point, make a claim that is not supported by actual experience with the rules, and others will correct them, sparking up the debate again until the new person either concedes that they were mistaken or else they decide they no longer wish to argue about it. And thus the cycle of life continues.

If it bothers you, then I suggest you simply don't read these threads. Oftentimes, I don't, especially when the arguments start circling each other. There are surely plenty of other threads to read.

Saph
2007-06-19, 04:45 PM
If it bothers you, then I suggest you simply don't read these threads. Oftentimes, I don't, especially when the arguments start circling each other. There are surely plenty of other threads to read.

I've read all the others in the forum, actually. Yes, I've got too much time on my hands. Yes, I know I should be doing something more productive. In my defence, I just finished work. :)

- Saph

Jack Mann
2007-06-19, 04:46 PM
Perhaps you need another hobby. Have you considered the fine art of macramé?

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-19, 04:47 PM
In terms of PvP, I would say that it comes down to who goes first in most cases. Which means wizards win (via Celerity). Between two wizards with Celerity, whoever wins initiative wins.

Sorry, but thems the ropes.

de-trick
2007-06-19, 04:50 PM
too many posts on classes that are over powered or underpowered STOP THE MADNESS NOW!!!!
think of the children

Scatman
2007-06-19, 04:50 PM
I could just swear you people havnt played PvP...

Jack Mann
2007-06-19, 04:52 PM
We have, Scatman. We have. Believe me, a well-built fighter, barbarian, or druid can outdamage the monk any day of the week, and past level nine, a wizard has little to fear from your average monk.

De-trick, you aren't going to get your way by shouting. I have already explained why this isn't going to stop. Please calm down. Emo is not the answer.

Morty
2007-06-19, 04:53 PM
I could just swear you people havnt played PvP...

And you have? Have you seen barbarian being beaten by monk?
... oh no. I'm participating in "Monks aren't overpowered" argument. There's no hope for me.
It's funny, really. Monk seems broken if you aren't very experienced and you look at him for the first time, many people mistake him as being very strong- but he's in fact weak. At the same time, wizard is probably the strongest core class, yet I've met many people claiming that wizard is weak after reading about them.

Tengu
2007-06-19, 04:53 PM
I could just swear you people havnt played PvP...

If you've played pvp (what's the point anyway, in an RPG?) as a monk and won, then either those you fought didn't know heck about optimizing or you were lucky. Read the thread linked for details.

The best pvp class is, of course, samurai. Fear the mass staredown!

Spiryt
2007-06-19, 05:16 PM
If you've played pvp (what's the point anyway, in an RPG?) as a monk and won, then either those you fought didn't know heck about optimizing or you were lucky.

Optimizing... I don't like this word. It just doesn't fit in RPG.

Anyway, taking Power Attack isn't optimazing itself . And what else do you need to defeat Monk when you are barbarian :smallbiggrin: ?

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-19, 05:22 PM
Hey! a Monk CAN shine in PVP. A monk has just as much potential to be whored out and min-maxed as any other melee class. The difference is, the other melee classes are plug-and-play: they don't need any optimizing to be able to do what they are supposed to be able to do. A monk, on the other hand HAS to be optimized, or else it is a hindrance to the party.

A barbarian that takes power attack has just incredibly increased his effectiveness. Power Attack is a duh! feat for barbarians. Level of optimization -slight.

A monk has to take all the right feats, use all the right magic items, and can't afford to put a good stat somewhere sub-optimal for 'flavor reasons'.

the high charisma Barbarian, is weird. The high charisma monk- is made of lose and suck.

Kurald Galain
2007-06-19, 05:40 PM
Been there, done that.

Win initiative with MOP or Celerity. Then forcecage + cloudkill, or timestop + prismatic sphere + reverse gravity, or quickened empowered enervation + disintegrate, or whatever. Flawless Victory.

Subotei
2007-06-19, 05:45 PM
If it bothers you, then I suggest you simply don't read these threads. Oftentimes, I don't, especially when the arguments start circling each other. There are surely plenty of other threads to read.

Like what music to play whilst DnD-ing? Seems to come round regularly.

...Eh?
2007-06-19, 05:50 PM
Emo is not the answer.

Its...its not? I've been wasting my life! *Cuts self*

Spiryt
2007-06-19, 05:51 PM
Like what music to play whilst DnD-ing? Seems to come round regularly.

Like Fighter fixes. Come around regulary and fixed fighter anyway can't fight with mage, just owns poor barbarians, rangers, not to mention swashbucklers...

Skyserpent
2007-06-19, 05:55 PM
Scatman, please, just stop. If you can't see that

a. You're evidence is nonexistant

b. Their evidence is plentiful and informative

Then clearly you can't see that

c. You've lost this discussion.

So I'm just going to glide over the whole revelation thing and just let you move on to getting the heck out of here until you come back with something relevant to say. Trust me, just go, it will not end well for you if you stay your current course. This discussion will get angrier and ignorance (Not saying "Whose") will become more apparent, maybe not to you but to everyone else for sure. If anything that I have said is false, then I apologize, but these are my observations and my humble advice.


This thread has pained me to read but I had to because clearly I have become a closet Masochist.

Generic PC
2007-06-19, 06:08 PM
At the same time, wizard is probably the strongest core class, yet I've met many people claiming that wizard is weak after reading about them.
Of course a Wizard is weak. They have strength penalties.:biggrin:

Mysticaloctopus
2007-06-19, 06:17 PM
*ahem*

GESTALT

My work here is done.

Bassetking
2007-06-19, 07:31 PM
Dear Scatman,

indentFirst, hello! Welcome to the endlessly cyclical GITP Forums Overpowered/Underpowered argument. Take off your coat, relax, and fix yourself a drink. There's punch on the Buffet table, and, if we're lucky, Vorpal Tribble is making Crab Puffs.

indentComfy? Excellent!

indentIndependent of how high a Monk can raise his grappling ability. Independent of his increased movement speed, his potentially high AC, his fantastic saves, His status as an extraplanar creature, or his DR... A Wizard has Phantom Steed, Contingency, Celerity, Greater invisibility, Magic Missile, and Prestidigitation. A sorcerer has all of that, and looks pretty while doing it.

indentIndependent of a Monk's increased damage die, Lawful, magic, adamantine hands, and stunning fists... A Fighter can, with little overall effort, Power Attack the Monk into a greasy stain. With a 1 level Barbarian Dip, I can make that Power Attack count for every attack in a Full Attack.

indentWhile initially tempting, and, admittedly, a HELL of a lot of fun to play, Monks flatly, mechanically, and mathematically get stomped into Stew-meat by nigh-on every other class; Core and Splat.

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-19, 07:51 PM
indentWhile initially tempting, and, admittedly, a HELL of a lot of fun to play, Monks flatly, mechanically, and mathematically get stomped into Stew-meat by nigh-on every other class; Core and Splat.
Waitaminutehere. I resent the implication that the Compete Warrior Samurai is acually good for something.

Ivius
2007-06-19, 08:06 PM
While initially tempting, and, admittedly, a HELL of a lot of fun to play, Monks flatly, mechanically, and mathematically get stomped into Stew-meat by nigh-on every other class; Core and Splat.

What about Commoner?

(Sorry, I had to)

Bassetking
2007-06-19, 08:06 PM
Waitaminutehere. I resent the implication that the Compete Warrior Samurai is acually good for something.

Do note "Nigh-On" in my quote. It was, truth spoken, placed there specifically with the Samurai in mind.

Draz74
2007-06-19, 08:07 PM
Waitaminutehere. I resent the implication that the Compete Warrior Samurai is acually good for something.

No such implication. This was the very reason for the words "nigh-on." Without the CW Samurai to compare with, and maybe the Soulknife and the NPC classes, the "nigh-on" implied exception could have been left out. :smallwink:

herrhauptmann
2007-06-19, 08:08 PM
I will not say that monks are over/under powered.
I will say that you can occasionally do some very cool things with a monk, assuming your dm allows it.
Like ripping the head off a gargoyle barehanded after 3 rounds of grapple... It gets even better when teh fighter with an 8 higher strength, tries and fails, for 1 hour of real time. Soaking up all the clerics heal spells in the process because he hasn't learned about damage reduction.

That's my two cents.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-06-19, 08:31 PM
Yeah, macramé is awesome.

Damionte
2007-06-19, 09:07 PM
Monk the king of pvP that's a good one... hey I got one.


A farmer had a champion bull he bred 200 times a year
Farmers wife said "200 times! Isn't that wonderful dear."
"Maybe you aut to watch him. Maybe he'll show you how."
Farmer said "Yeah that's a hell of a bull but it wasn't all with the same cow!"


.

.

.

.

Oh I'm sorry. I thought this was the bad joke thread. It's not the bad joke thread? I read the first post and assumed we were telling jokes, like a forum game.

Ditto
2007-06-19, 09:27 PM
Fun point of reference: the Monk is 0-for-2 in the Battle of the Core Classes. He lost in less than 10 rounds both times, to a Druid and a Bard. The Bard won with a coup-de-grace delivered by his Celestial Bison.

If that isn't 'humping the corpse' (as they say on XBOX Live), then I don't know what is.

Skyserpent
2007-06-19, 09:35 PM
Fun point of reference: the Monk is 0-for-2 in the Battle of the Core Classes. He lost in less than 10 rounds both times, to a Druid and a Bard. The Bard won with a coup-de-grace delivered by his Celestial Bison.

If that isn't 'humping the corpse' (as they say on XBOX Live), then I don't know what is.

He lost to a BARD!?

For the record, the Battle of the Core Classes posseses players of varying optimization skill and knowledge, I don't know if that's a particularly good point of reference.

A Wizard might own with many players but some guys like to go all blaster happy and become evokers... lord knows how that ends...

anyway, Monks are not all that great mechanically, I'm sorry. Deal with it.

Ditto
2007-06-19, 09:40 PM
Indeed, but on the one hand I think that lack of even expert char-op makes it a little more real. The monk lost on some pretty nasty save rolls, to be fair, but it still wasn't going well as I heard it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-19, 10:15 PM
Sorry, but nothing says 'screw you' like Contingency Celerity upon my being attacked or the target of a negative effect, then using that celerity to cast Sudden Max Time Stop, then using the following rounds to go Forcecage, Dim Lock, and Cloudkill.

Not even the mighty CoDzilla can get out of guarenteed con damage every round no save no SR allowed, and you can't escape because DimLock keeps extra-dimentional transportation (like ethereal, astral, or teleportation) and Force Cage is invincible.

Granted, with a CoDzilla, you might want to toss on a Silence or something to keep him from trying to Dispel, but still...

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-19, 11:51 PM
I'd suggest powering up your monk a bit. He'll probably be even more fun to play with a few cool powers.

At level 20 you could have a LA template like Phrenic bought down.

Taking 5 Levels of Enlightened Fist topped with 5 levels of Abjurant Champion (Despite the wording it should also work for the psionic Force Shield and Inertial Armor powers) along with the ascetic rougue feat and a few levels of psi rogue, ninja and psi assassin to get that sneak attack and sudden strike damage stacking with your unarmed monk damage. Taking the Spellfire feat wouldn't be a bad idea if it is available.

Yor PC will almost certainly die in a straight up individual combat against a capable comparable level experienced wizard expecting to deal with a single combatant duel one on one as most will have situationally useful spells ready or in place along with useful gear except at low levels and even then it can be iffy. Individual one on one class duel challenges against a comparable level wizard usually favor the prepared wizard usually obtaining initiative somehow in that first and possibly subsequent rounds. Even if two wizards duel one will win.

Wizards and full casters are agreeably the most powerful classes in the game but you don't see very many wizard only parties playing because most DMs don't let them go around renting meatshields although you occassionnally find full spellcaster only parties.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-20, 12:31 AM
Caster classes will always be superior in a one on one duel because they are designed for 'burst' with downtime, their limiting factor is supposed to be endurance. Go through six or eight fights, then the wizard isn't so tough, as most of his reality-altering spells have been used up already. That is their limitation. A straight up duel with all spells prepped takes this limitation away, and they are free to go nova as hard as they like, knowing that they have no other opponents to fight. They can pop off dozens of spells in rapid succession, which they cannot do in a typical D&D setting, because that would leave them vulnerable for the rest of the encounters that day.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-20, 05:16 AM
Generally, wizards own everything. It's been said 321 times and will be said again. And now we have yet another "Wizards rule-no, they don't-yes, they do-etc." thread.
And I'm absolutely sure Vow of Poverty and Antimagic Field will appear here eventually.

And they do! :smallbiggrin:

Well, about vow of poverty I do not know (guess the consensus around the boards is to generally not advise to take it, except in equipment/wealth-poor campaigns), but since the OP asked about PvP (so, in my interpretation, arena-like duels), I still wonder about how caster opponents are overcoming an anti-magic field used by a monk (let's say, which he got up with cross-class UMD and a scroll) at the mid-high levels (say, 11-16; at lower levels the monk will likely not even need AMF to overcome a caster).

The only thing possible is to fly out of range (the monk outmoves the caster otherwise) and wait for the AMF to end (since teleporting away or such usually are banned in PvP scenarios). However, the overland flying spell that has a long enough duration has only 40ft move (so 20ft upward speed). And the caster better be up fast to avoid the monk reaching him with a jump (and suppressing with 10ft radius AMF the flying ability). And the monk can still used ranged attacks...

Now, said monk with AMF has a harder time vs fighters and barbarians, but I guess that is part of an overall rough duel class balance circle (for which, btw, the game was not made):
monk>cleric/druid*>wizard/sorcerer>rogue/bard>ranger/paladin>fighter/barbarian>monk etc.

*druids may be a bit special case here (broadly seen as the most powerful class around here, since it offers full spell progression, an-almost-another-pc-character-theanimalcompanion, plus plenty of supernatural abilities that strengthen the druid's melee capability almost to that of the full BAB classes. However, a druid (or cleric) with the typical melee tactics will lose vs an AMF monk (since that also supresses the animal form of the druid).

- Giacomo

Armads
2007-06-20, 05:28 AM
I like playing a kobold rogue/combat trapsmith. It's so fun at level 10 to entangle, immobilize, exhaust, deny dex bonus, blind, deafen, and nauseate someone with a few rounds of preparation. They also can never detect the traps, as no one ever puts ranks in Search and Disable Device in PvP, and the DCs are usually too high for them to make. They also have to make a DC 26 fort save or fall asleep, which is when I pull out a heavy pick and coup de grace.

Zincorium
2007-06-20, 05:36 AM
Well, about vow of poverty I do not know (guess the consensus around the boards is to generally not advise to take it, except in equipment/wealth-poor campaigns), but since the OP asked about PvP (so, in my interpretation, arena-like duels), I still wonder about how caster opponents are overcoming an anti-magic field used by a monk (let's say, which he got up with cross-class UMD and a scroll) at the mid-high levels (say, 11-16; at lower levels the monk will likely not even need AMF to overcome a caster).


Antimagic field is 10 foot radius, unless the monk can kill the caster the first round of combat in addition to successfully making a minimum DC 31 cross class, charisma based skill check successfully, it's not really all that relevant. Wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall all function normally, and the force cage spell, a standard tactic against dangerous opponents, can simply be cast around the antimagic field. And guess what? the monk can't even dimension door out until the antimagic field goes down and the monk is vulnerable to all the wizard's spells again.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-20, 06:00 AM
Antimagic field is 10 foot radius, unless the monk can kill the caster the first round of combat in addition to successfully making a minimum DC 31 cross class, charisma based skill check successfully, it's not really all that relevant. Wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall all function normally, and the force cage spell, a standard tactic against dangerous opponents, can simply be cast around the antimagic field. And guess what? the monk can't even dimension door out until the antimagic field goes down and the monk is vulnerable to all the wizard's spells again.

Let's not forget the ultimate combo... forcecage/cloudkill. Since you're in an AMF, you can't use your ability to go ethereal or dim door (since it's a supernatural ability), so there's no way you can get out. Neither of these effects allow SR, and function perfectly in AMF, and guarentee Con damage every round until monk is dead.

PirateMonk
2007-06-20, 07:28 AM
Well, if we're assuming that your DM isn't sane and you're going strictly RAW, as is usually the case here, the wizard can simply pull off some horrendous Gate abuse...

squidthingy
2007-06-20, 07:39 AM
druid, end of question

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-20, 08:10 AM
Hi again,

the stuff outlined by Zincorium, SneekeytheLost and PirateMonk are the most common measures vs an AMF monk at high levels, I think, and I'm afraid that they are not foolproof.

First, how to get UMD up for all classes out there who have to raise it crossclass?
Core:
Cross-class ranks (at 11th level when AMF could be available that would be 7)
+3 competence (circlet of persuasion)
+4 synergy (from spellcraft and decipher script, raise also cross-class; monk has enough skill points to spare if he goes the AMF route)
+3 skill focus feat
+2 magical apitude feat (also helps spellcraft)
+2 morale bonus (from typical buffs like potion of good hope or a fellow party spelluser)
+1 luck (from an item or again, spell)
For a total of +22.
Now, for making certain to get the AMF up from scroll as an 11th level monk, you'll need either to have a high CHR bonus of +8 (may not be the focus of every monk build there admittedly) or get a luckblade for re-roll or simply retry as often if ahead of combat (and get some spare AMF scrolls).
Clearly, at 11th level, the AMF monk should be ahead of any spellcaster this way.

Now for the higher-level countermeasures vs an AMF monk...
Wall of Force, Prismatic Sphere and Forcecage can all be dispelled with a rod of cancellation (quite cheap for these levels at 11,000, and can be used as many times as you like since the rod is only used up when touching magic items).
Forcecage in the 20ft form is useless, since the monk simply can toss the rod of cancellation outside his AMF and thus dispel the cage.
The 10ft cube forcecage form is clever, but effetively shuts down the monk from all the wizard can do (=draw). Plus the monk can then lower the AMF, cancel the cage, and put up an AMF again (without the wizard noticing possibly, since he cannot detect inside the forcecage).
Quite good is the cloudkill/forcecage combo (do not forget the hefty 1,500gp component per casting of the forcecage!), but again the monk can simply lower the AMF, and this time even get the forcecage away without the wizard noticing, slipping away behind the cloudkill and then cast AMF again, and move quickly to the unsuspecting wizard.

Gate (the most powerful spell in core) is quite a nuclear answer to the monk's AMF, but here again it is not that much of a guarantee (barring the infinite wish/titan chains that any sane DM or PvP organiser will bar since it shuts down the campaign by logic even before any player character can enter play in it).
- first, the monk may be able to evade the horror from beyond and still reach the wizard with the AMF and kill the wizard before the gated horror kills him.
- second, the price is quite high for the wizard/spellcaster to pay (apart from the XP), since it is very likely that the creature called seeks revenge (which has a chance to be unwilling there in the first place), since a calling actually risks its life. Many in these boards call that fluff simply, but I bet that most DM would in their campaigns handle it that way.

Overall, casters rule definitely when they get 9th level spells (so lvl 17 and up), but the monk should not be underestimated...

- Giacomo

Pestlepup
2007-06-20, 08:11 AM
I for one like to steer away from these conversations. Though given that I'm more of a fluff than crunch person anyway, it kinda makes sense. Monk has a number of fun abilities and skills, but there is no single aspect of a Monk's repertoire that isn't matched or exceeded in power by another class. With the exception of unarmed damage and movement rate, but they only amount for so much. Nevertheless, this makes monk a great jack-of-all-trades, but when faced with a highly specialized character, will, regrettably, most likely have his or her backside gently offered as a lovely parting gift. There are situations and environs for the Monk to shine in, but PvP most likely isn't one of those. (Of course, it all depends on the set-up. There are ways to foil any class imaginable. I'd imagine.)

For the record, I'm also a huge fan of VoP. Anything to get my feats I guess.

By the by, where is Celerity introduced? Sounds alien to me...

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-20, 08:29 AM
celerity is in PHB II I think...

one more note: all the force and prismatic sphere spells have a "close" casting range; so without some means of extending that range, the caster has to move within move/attacking distance of the monk...

- Giacomo

Zincorium
2007-06-20, 09:17 AM
Hi again,

the stuff outlined by Zincorium, SneekeytheLost and PirateMonk are the most common measures vs an AMF monk at high levels, I think, and I'm afraid that they are not foolproof.

First, how to get UMD up for all classes out there who have to raise it crossclass?
Core:
Cross-class ranks (at 11th level when AMF could be available that would be 7)
+3 competence (circlet of persuasion)
+4 synergy (from spellcraft and decipher script, raise also cross-class; monk has enough skill points to spare if he goes the AMF route)
+3 skill focus feat
+2 magical apitude feat (also helps spellcraft)
+2 morale bonus (from typical buffs like potion of good hope or a fellow party spelluser)
+1 luck (from an item or again, spell)
For a total of +22.
Now, for making certain to get the AMF up from scroll as an 11th level monk, you'll need either to have a high CHR bonus of +8 (may not be the focus of every monk build there admittedly) or get a luckblade for re-roll or simply retry as often if ahead of combat (and get some spare AMF scrolls).
Clearly, at 11th level, the AMF monk should be ahead of any spellcaster this way.


So...you postulate a monk that sucks at being a monk due to the use of two feats and a lot of gold that do nothing except allow the monk to use an item that only helps against spellcasters. Two of those you just sort of assume will happen (luck and morale bonus). Also, in a PVP fight, preparation is going to favor the caster, and the caster is going to have a much greater ability to determine the opposition's abilities. Disjunction, anyone? Twice the cost, but it shuts your monk down hard, and an 11th level wizard with practiced spellcaster and an orange ioun stone (which are good choices anyway, unlike skill focus: UMD) only needs a 4 to successfully cast it.

Not to mention, you're making a poor attempt to beat a caster by casting spells. By that alone, you're hurting the idea that the monk is worthwhile. Your suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with why a monk is good, pretty much any other class has a better chance of success at that endeavor, due to the ability to put a decent score into charisma or UMD not being cross class.



Now for the higher-level countermeasures vs an AMF monk...
Wall of Force, Prismatic Sphere and Forcecage can all be dispelled with a rod of cancellation (quite cheap for these levels at 11,000, and can be used as many times as you like since the rod is only used up when touching magic items).
Forcecage in the 20ft form is useless, since the monk simply can toss the rod of cancellation outside his AMF and thus dispel the cage.


...Except that again you're using a really expensive item. More expensive than the component for forcecage. Guess who runs out first? And if you're going to argue that negating a forcecage doesn't cause the rod to become drained, then I'm gonna stop arguing with you because you're assuming there's a DM for this acquiescing to your blatantly unreasonably request.



The 10ft cube forcecage form is clever, but effetively shuts down the monk from all the wizard can do (=draw). Plus the monk can then lower the AMF, cancel the cage, and put up an AMF again (without the wizard noticing possibly, since he cannot detect inside the forcecage).


Congratulations. As an 11th level caster with an orange ioun stone, that forcecage will last 24 hours. Your AMFs last 110 minutes apiece. Again, guess who runs out first? And I'm talking about the 20 ft caged form, the one that lets the wizard target you with spells all he wants once the AMF goes down without you being able to retaliate.



Quite good is the cloudkill/forcecage combo (do not forget the hefty 1,500gp component per casting of the forcecage!)


Trust me, I won't...you're spending a whole lot more with the rod of cancellation and scrolls of AMF that are being used up at an atrocious rate.



, but again the monk can simply lower the AMF, and this time even get the forcecage away without the wizard noticing, slipping away behind the cloudkill and then cast AMF again, and move quickly to the unsuspecting wizard.


Because the wizard is just standing there, not watching, within range, not teleporting away or anything, for nearly two hours? Seriously, are you smoking something that negatively affects your basic reasoning? Because that's something I'm interested in knowing at this point.



Gate (the most powerful spell in core) is quite a nuclear answer to the monk's AMF, but here again it is not that much of a guarantee (barring the infinite wish/titan chains that any sane DM or PvP organiser will bar since it shuts down the campaign by logic even before any player character can enter play in it).
- first, the monk may be able to evade the horror from beyond and still reach the wizard with the AMF and kill the wizard before the gated horror kills him.
- second, the price is quite high for the wizard/spellcaster to pay (apart from the XP), since it is very likely that the creature called seeks revenge (which has a chance to be unwilling there in the first place), since a calling actually risks its life. Many in these boards call that fluff simply, but I bet that most DM would in their campaigns handle it that way.


That 1d20 + str will not shut the wizard down with a single hit. And the wizard is going to move, since the wizard can move at least 30' and still cast spells.



Overall, casters rule definitely when they get 9th level spells (so lvl 17 and up), but the monk should not be underestimated...

- Giacomo

You are dramatically overstating, overblowing, and ignoring reasonableness with your post.

The monk can and should be correctly estimated, which you are not doing. Most monks do not spend their entire lives figuring out how to cast AMF. If they wanted to do that, they could do it far easier by being a rogue, bard, or heavens forbid, a wizard.

You are talking about a very specific monk, built only for one thing. Most people are only mentioning a typical, not logic-ninja'd-up wizard. And you still aren't winning, due to a basic failure to not grasp the wizard not turning into dust from a single poke. Wizards have a d4, but constitution is their second most important stat, so they will have a goodly number of hit points at 11. You need to land multiple hits and your build cannot provide that against a wizard, because they are smart enough to use solid tactics.

PirateMonk
2007-06-20, 10:13 AM
Gate (the most powerful spell in core) is quite a nuclear answer to the monk's AMF, but here again it is not that much of a guarantee (barring the infinite wish/titan chains that any sane DM or PvP organiser will bar since it shuts down the campaign by logic even before any player character can enter play in it).

...I did specifically state that I was assuming that you didn't have a sane DM available. Besides, you don't need infinite wishes or Titans; 10-15 should be enough to pound the Monk into a grease stain in one round, and there is almost certainly that many willing Titans who have not yet used Gate.


- first, the monk may be able to evade the horror from beyond and still reach the wizard with the AMF and kill the wizard before the gated horror kills him.
- second, the price is quite high for the wizard/spellcaster to pay (apart from the XP), since it is very likely that the creature called seeks revenge (which has a chance to be unwilling there in the first place), since a calling actually risks its life. Many in these boards call that fluff simply, but I bet that most DM would in their campaigns handle it that way.

No, pounding a Monk into the floor with a few dozen buddies does not qualify a life-threatening experience.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-20, 12:08 PM
So...you postulate a monk that sucks at being a monk due to the use of two feats and a lot of gold that do nothing except allow the monk to use an item that only helps against spellcasters. Two of those you just sort of assume will happen (luck and morale bonus). Also, in a PVP fight, preparation is going to favor the caster, and the caster is going to have a much greater ability to determine the opposition's abilities. Disjunction, anyone? Twice the cost, but it shuts your monk down hard, and an 11th level wizard with practiced spellcaster and an orange ioun stone (which are good choices anyway, unlike skill focus: UMD) only needs a 4 to successfully cast it.

OK, let me try correct you where I think you are wrong, step by step.
- two feats at lvl 11 of the 9 feats a human monk has are not too specialising, I dare say.
- disjunction allows will saves. By the time a wizard can cast it without UMD (lvl 17) the monk has a high enough will save for his magic items to survive most disjunctions. And the monk can carry enough spare AMF scrolls. If the disjunction goes vs the monk when AMF is already up, good luck there since even with the ioun stone you have only 20%-ish chance to dispel the AMF.
- casting with UMD: practiced spellcaster only ups your caster level to your character level, so nothing gained here. A cleric with the magic domain could boost his caster level with karma beads, but this will not help with disjuncting the AMF much, and gains nothing for disjuncting the AMF scrolls the monk has. A wizard below lvl 17 may use a 9th level spell (why disjunction? Try gate in that case even!) with UMD, but then he really needs to be certain that the cost is worth it. If you resort to magic above your caster level to overcome a same level non-caster, you are basically saying that they are otherwise unbeatable.:smallsmile:
- the monk in a PvP fight does not even need to prepare. 1st round, win initiative, AMF up. Lose initiative, AMF still up (if not countered but what caster will waste his first round initiative vs a non-caster with a readied greater dispel magic?). Caster is under pressure in both cases.
- a luck skill bonus of +1 and morale skill bonus of +2 for an arena duel are not that difficult to get at that level (11). Potion of Good Hope and a luck stone, and you are set (and those are also highly useful in many other circumstances). And there are likely tons of other ways to get bonuses.



Not to mention, you're making a poor attempt to beat a caster by casting spells. By that alone, you're hurting the idea that the monk is worthwhile. Your suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with why a monk is good, pretty much any other class has a better chance of success at that endeavor, due to the ability to put a decent score into charisma or UMD not being cross class.

This is one of the major misperceptions I encounter on these boards, imo. Magic is available to ALL classes. Only the casters get it on a daily basis (but not for free either, they are often vulnerable while re-learning/refreshing spells), that is the only difference.
And casting AMF as a non-caster certainly does not illustrate that they are weaker than casters in that aspect, but to the contrary they make much more use of it!:smallsmile: (the instances where a wizard casts AMF are quite rare...)
Plus, the monk can make quite good use of AMF even compared to other non-caster classes since he has the highest movement, has many class abilities that still work in AMF and is less dependent on magic weapons than other classes (he has good unarmed combat capabilities). Basically, besides a rogue the monk is the best character to use AMF vs casters and magic-rich monsters.

Quite a nice side effect of the high UMD skill (which makes it REALLY worthwhile for the monk to take) is that due to the high WIS of the monk, he can cast basically ALL divine spells (cleric, ranger, druid and paladin) from scrolls. This can at times be REALLY handy. So basically in tight situations he can emulate a full divine caster while retaining all his other class abilites. Hey, nobody said that only CoDzillas out there can do the trick to emulate other class abilities while being able to do much more. Everyone can :smallbiggrin:



...Except that again you're using a really expensive item. More expensive than the component for forcecage. Guess who runs out first? And if you're going to argue that negating a forcecage doesn't cause the rod to become drained, then I'm gonna stop arguing with you because you're assuming there's a DM for this acquiescing to your blatantly unreasonably request.

At 11th level, the wbl certainly easily allows an item for 11,000, and it does not get used up unlike the spell component. The description specifically mentions only items as being able to drain the rod.
Blatantly unreasonable would be to assume that casters have the full range of no-save-no-dispel-no-destroy force effects at their disposal without any possibility for non-disintegrate-wielders (including other casters!) to overcome. THAT would be blatantly unreasonable imo.


Congratulations. As an 11th level caster with an orange ioun stone, that forcecage will last 24 hours. Your AMFs last 110 minutes apiece. Again, guess who runs out first? And I'm talking about the 20 ft caged form, the one that lets the wizard target you with spells all he wants once the AMF goes down without you being able to retaliate.

Er...as I outlined above, the monk will simply end the AMF (impossible to notice by the caster), cancel the forcecage, get out and raise AMF again when appropriate. (he could also simply dim door out if that is better). And remember, the caster will have to risk getting into melee range for all force wall effect spells and prismatic sphere (close range) to cast the stuff.
It is much safer to fly up and try calling spells from further away (which are quite rare in core, though).



Trust me, I won't...you're spending a whole lot more with the rod of cancellation and scrolls of AMF that are being used up at an atrocious rate.


No, I do not think they are used up that much. The rod of cancellation is not used up, as I outlined above. And the scrolls with AMF are quite cheap compared to 11 level wbl and used only when there is a key wizard to overcome (in typical PvP arenas, they could win one duel/AMF scroll, which is quite good).



Because the wizard is just standing there, not watching, within range, not teleporting away or anything, for nearly two hours? Seriously, are you smoking something that negatively affects your basic reasoning? Because that's something I'm interested in knowing at this point.


Please calm down. As I said already in the prvs post, the monk will be able to get out of the forcecage when he chooses to.



That 1d20 + str will not shut the wizard down with a single hit. And the wizard is going to move, since the wizard can move at least 30' and still cast spells.


Er...IF the monk gets close to the wizard, ALL spell defenses are gone (including contingencies, freedom of movenment, touch AC improvements, stoneskins, moment of prescience, zip); the wizard then is basically a wobbly commoner of his level. A grapple is almost guaranteed to work. Alternatively, the monk could simply stun him and then full attack the next round.



You are dramatically overstating, overblowing, and ignoring reasonableness with your post.


OK, the OP asked about PvP situations, which are already quite unreasonable most of the times, or they are in an arena-like-duel situation. For these situations, it is entirely conceivable to do a CHR-maxed out monk that makes use of AMF tactics to hunt down casters. In normal play, that may be not that great a tactics to use, but still...imagine if there is a cleric in the party with the monk and the monk being able to UMD the scrolls the cleric does. And at levels 18-20? Get a 200,000 ring of spell storing and fill it with an AMF that the cleric casts into it again and again. It is quite a viable party tactics to basically carry an "anti-npc-caster" weapon with them.[/QUOTE]

I see often the threads like these were newcomers in particular get swamped with a perception of caster power/superiority/overpoweredness which frankly, I found are not supported by the core rules (anything beyond that may be different, depending on what expansion sets/books you use).



The monk can and should be correctly estimated, which you are not doing. Most monks do not spend their entire lives figuring out how to cast AMF. If they wanted to do that, they could do it far easier by being a rogue, bard, or heavens forbid, a wizard.


Well, if in a campaign casters are quite dominant (which you seem to think) what kind of fighting style will monks then learn? Backstabbing the rogue? Likely not. Say the BBEG and his minions are a bunch of super-cleric-casters. If the pc monk then chooses to maximise his tripping and spring attack tactics to overcome town guards, I guess the DM should give him a hint...:smallsmile:



You are talking about a very specific monk, built only for one thing. Most people are only mentioning a typical, not logic-ninja'd-up wizard. And you still aren't winning, due to a basic failure to not grasp the wizard not turning into dust from a single poke. Wizards have a d4, but constitution is their second most important stat, so they will have a goodly number of hit points at 11. You need to land multiple hits and your build cannot provide that against a wizard, because they are smart enough to use solid tactics.


The monk I outlined with the UMD maxing above does not even spend 30% of his ressources to do that "specialisation", plus the UMD and the accompanyig feats and items can also come in handy for other situations.
In fact, it is rather the (albeit brilliantly) logic-ninja'd-up wizard that is highly specific, and not necessarly represantative of what many players would like their caster/wizard to do.
As I said above, if the monk gets close to the wizard with an AMF up, the wizard loses, no matter how high his hit points.

- Giacomo

@PirateMonk: correct, the more big guys are gated in, the less risk for them. That leaves the "unwilling" part, though. And when the first guy starts to gate the 2nd in, the monk moves past and AMFs the wizard.
Do not get me wrong: with gate, the caster should be stronger than almost any opponent, but
- what happens before lvl 17?
- how to handle unwilling biggies after they depart?
- why pay 1000 XP all the times an opponent attacks the caster? The monk may not appear to be such a tough threat to start with...the caster may not even realise an AMF is up until it is to late (Arcane Sight detecting nothing normally means that the guy without armour running towards you actually HAS NO MAGIC and thus no threat for you, anyhow...:smallbiggrin: )

Pestlepup
2007-06-20, 01:55 PM
Thank you Sir Giacomo, much appreciated. That would explain why I'm not familiar with it.

One thing bothers me, though. I've been hearing the Cloudkill/Forcecage combo being brought up every now and then, but what is so marvelous about it? If cast a barred cage variant, the Cloud will drift outside of the cage in two rounds, and henceforth be unable to effect more damage. Granted, it could be argued that the windowless cell variant would contain the cloud, but wouldn't it then also cause suffocation? And even so, Druids and Monks both gain immunity to poison at levels 9 and 11 respectively, rendering Cloudkill ineffective. Furthermore, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers all gain access to Neutralize Poison at character levels 11, 7, 5, 15 and 12 respectively. And that's assuming some of the classes don't have enough of an ability modifier to receive it a level earlier. Neutralize Poison, as it happens, renders the target immune to Cloudkill's effect for 10 minutes per caster level. Given that Cloudkill has a duration of 1 minute per caster level, it would require a level disparity of such magnitude in the favor of the mage to outlast even a Paladin's Neutralize Poison, that it makes the whole battle pointless. It is even impossible for the mage to determine if such a spell has been cast, as the cloud conceals the subject effectively, even from detec magic (needs line of sight). Assuming that the mage will start randomly casting area dispels into the cage, it still risks dispelling the Cloudkill on each attempt. You cannot choose not to try to dispel your own spells. Besides, it's wasting perfectly good third level spell slots (or higher if using greater dispel) for potentially no effect. And it still leaves the naturally venom immune untouched.

Besides, a wizard can, as far as I know release a maximum of two spells per round. One quickened and one cast normally.Thus, a Monk could during his/her turn, teleport next to the mage and, with Sun Schools Flash of Sunset, hit and potentially stun the mage all in the same round.

Please tell me that there's something wrong with my reasoning.

PirateMonk
2007-06-20, 02:06 PM
^That was addressed in the past. Emperor Tippy clarified that he brought it up strictly for wizard vs. fighter debates, and against others, you're better off using Shapechange or Gate. Also, for the spells per round thing, you're forgetting Time Stop.

A lot of this depends on how far apart the duelists start. If they begin next to each other and the Wizard doesn't have Celerity, the Barbarian can just Rage and Full Attack, smashing the Wizard before he can react. Otherwise, the Wizard wins.


@PirateMonk: correct, the more big guys are gated in, the less risk for them. That leaves the "unwilling" part, though. And when the first guy starts to gate the 2nd in, the monk moves past and AMFs the wizard.

As I recall, Gated creature immediately get an action in which to Gate in buddies. Also, I'm not sure whether or not you can specify willingness in the Gated creature.


Do not get me wrong: with gate, the caster should be stronger than almost any opponent, but
- what happens before lvl 17?

Then what level is it?


- how to handle unwilling biggies after they depart?

Gate in more Titans when the others show up for revenge. :smallbiggrin:


- why pay 1000 XP all the times an opponent attacks the caster? The monk may not appear to be such a tough threat to start with...the caster may not even realise an AMF is up until it is to late (Arcane Sight detecting nothing normally means that the guy without armour running towards you actually HAS NO MAGIC and thus no threat for you, anyhow...:smallbiggrin: )

Simple: on these boards, wizards are assumed to be paranoids easily capable of soloing dragons. :smallamused:

Vaniel
2007-06-20, 02:52 PM
I myself think monks own the playing field.1d20 fists beats any barbarian any day.They also get DR and become an extraplanar creature at 20.Monk=T3h Pwnzars.

What....

Really...

No...

You must be joking...

------------------------------------------------

In my opinion, though, classes like this were not perfected to go against each other, but against creatures. Between them, magic is pretty much vastly stronger than anything else.

Wizard = Batman

/Vaniel

Kurald Galain
2007-06-20, 04:09 PM
Besides, a wizard can, as far as I know release a maximum of two spells per round.
Plus one cast by his familiar, imbued with spell ability.
Plus one cast quickened by his familiar.
Plus one from a triggered contingency (many more if you're cheesy enough to allow the Craft Contingent Spell feat).
Plus several more from Spell Matrix, Greater Spell Matrix, Spell Trigger and a variety of other contingency-like spells.
Plus one if the wizard casts Celerity or Greater Celerity.
Repeat the entire process two to five times if the wizard casts Time Stop.
Repeat the entire process as often as you like if the wizard Plane Shifts to a plane with accelerated time, rests, re-prepares and returns the next round.
I'm pretty sure I missed a few, and I'm pretty sure you can set up infinite loops like this. Two spells is just the beginning.

...Oh yeah, shapeshifting into a Roper. How could I miss that one...

PirateMonk
2007-06-20, 04:35 PM
Repeat the entire process as often as you like if the wizard Plane Shifts to a plane with accelerated time, rests, re-prepares and returns the next round.

But then he's in the next round.

Brother_Franklin
2007-06-20, 04:47 PM
Maybe he was talking about a level 1 PvP battle.

Quietus
2007-06-20, 05:24 PM
Maybe he was talking about a level 1 PvP battle.

Doubtful, with those 1d20 fists.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-20, 05:51 PM
Just one problem, Sir Ginkola...

Cast the cloudkill first, then the 10' version of the forcecage. He's stuck inside the cube, with the con damage each round, and no way out. And then Dimension Lock to make sure he can't dim-door out (can't ethereal out because it's a FORCE effect).

If you blow a Rod of Cancellation on the cage, I drop another cage on you. I spent 1,500... you spent 11,000. I think you're gonna run out of cash first.

I'd also like to point out that with minimal cheeze, a Wizard can easily get his DC's waaay up over 35+, making it possible for him to Disjunction the monk with ease.

This is, of course, simply assuming the wizard won't use Polycheeze to become Pun-Pun or something similarly broken. Heck, just turning into a Dragon then laughing as you try with futility to hit my AC of 50+ with your puny 3/4 BAB, plus the breath weapon, the aura of fear (which you'll have to save against every round), and natural flight (which the monk doesn't have).

Heck, the easiest way to beat a monk as a wizard is to fly up out of reach of the monk and rain down death and destruction. If he wants to fly, he'll have to come out of his AMF to get you. If he does, he's dead. Otherwise, you can rain down Conjuration effects on him and kill him anyways. Heads I win, tails you loose.

PirateMonk
2007-06-20, 08:48 PM
Just one problem, Sir Ginkola...

Cast the cloudkill first, then the 10' version of the forcecage. He's stuck inside the cube, with the con damage each round, and no way out. And then Dimension Lock to make sure he can't dim-door out (can't ethereal out because it's a FORCE effect).

For the last time, Forcecage + Cloudkill is a vs. Fighter only win button; Monks are immune to poison by the time you start casting Forcecage.

Armads
2007-06-20, 09:20 PM
For the last time, Forcecage + Cloudkill is a vs. Fighter only win button; Monks are immune to poison by the time you start casting Forcecage.

You don't need a forcecage + cloudkill to kill a monk. Just cast otiluke's resilient sphere on yourself, then fly, then dimension door all the way up into the sky, and rain fiery doom onto the monk.

If you're trapped by an AMF, then use Invoke Magic, followed by a Dimension Door to escape the Monk.

PirateMonk
2007-06-20, 09:34 PM
Exactly. Which is why I was objecting to Shneekey continuing that line of debate.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-20, 10:06 PM
Gotta love it when people don't read the rest of your post before complaining about the first paragraph... :smallbiggrin:

Try reading my ENTIRE post before complaining... like where I point out that the easiest way of killing a monk is just to fly out of reach and bombard until he falls over. Heck, go ahead and use a bunch of save or die/loose spells... he's gotta roll a natural one eventually, eh? Not like he can reach you. If he uses a flying item, forcecage him. if he uses a rod of cancellation, cage him again.

Or just Shapechange into a mature adult silver dragon and laugh as your +24 natural armor makes all his attacks bounce harmlessly. Heck, you can PAO it if you like, make it nearly permanent (make it permanent if you are already dragon-blooded).

PirateMonk
2007-06-20, 10:08 PM
I did read your post, and for the most part, I agree. Now can we move on to discussing that rather than Forcecage+Cloudkill tactics that don't work? Thanks.

Pestlepup
2007-06-21, 12:59 AM
I'm terribly sorry is this will count as digging up the previous debate, but why even bring the CK/FC combo up in a thread that originally revolved around the cheesiness or lack of it of the Monk? Fighters've been hardly even mentioned. And I've not forgotten about Time Stop, which, contrary to the stated intent, does not allow to cast multiple spells per round, but rather grants rounds during which to cast spells. Subjectively, there may be no difference, but mechanics-wise it's a whole different thing.

TheOOB
2007-06-21, 01:02 AM
Assuming the character is built for single 1-on-1 arena matches, a sorcerer wins all from my experiance.

Since you can tailor your spell list for that specific circumstance, the ability to spontaneously cast (as well as more high level spell slots) beats out the wizard advantages.

I myself won the 2005 Open D&D tourny at PAX with a caster build based on a sorcerer.

Pestlepup
2007-06-21, 02:22 AM
Assuming the character is built for single 1-on-1 arena matches, a sorcerer wins all from my experiance.

Sounds reasonable enough. Provided one can tailor spell selections to match precisely one's needs, I see no reason why in such a limited environment a sorcerer wouldn't exceed a wizard in effectiveness. A wizard's strength comes from being able to solve any problem given enough of a spell selection and time to prepare. In a scenario where the needs of the situation are known before even character creation, though, they lose that advantage.

Of course, the entire PvP practice is a bit out-of-place, as its realities translate in almost no way to the actual game, and contribute to it even less. At least some strategies fail outright due to insufficient preparation and knowledge, not to mention the lack of an ideal situation or site of combat. Or the inability to withstand a sustained assault. Or the use of outright suicidal or cost-ineffective strategies in a persistent world. (As opposed to the one-shot-no-repercussions-carry-over arenas used in PvP.) It's just not plausible to assume that every fight will be fought on the players' terms. It's not even plausible to assume that the players will have steady access to tons of ruby dust to keep casting Forcecages for eons, or not be crippled by spending thousands of Exp on summoning Titans or whatnot. (Especially since they won't recoup practically any experience from it. If it's no challenge to the caster or the party, there's no reason to award that much Exp.)

But if it's your cup of tea, no skin off my nose. To each his/her own and all that. I just personally find it a bit pointless. No offense intended to the fans of PvP. It has its joys and merits, I'm sure. At the very least, it allows for quick, action-packed games that are most likely great fun in the right company.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-21, 05:31 AM
Just one problem, Sir Ginkola...

Cast the cloudkill first, then the 10' version of the forcecage. He's stuck inside the cube, with the con damage each round, and no way out. And then Dimension Lock to make sure he can't dim-door out (can't ethereal out because it's a FORCE effect).

Ginkola is great...sounds like a Swiss herb drop.
As PirateMonk correctly said, a monk at the level of forcecages is immune to poison and thus the cloudkill effect. Dimension Lock would be a good idea, but you cannot cast it into the forcecage, so you would have to cast that first and one of those 8th level spells would thus need to be quickened (with a very expensive greater metamagic rod of quicken) to be cast in 1 round. Ah, and of course the lock has a chance to fail due to the SR of the monk which is still up even in the AMF.


If you blow a Rod of Cancellation on the cage, I drop another cage on you. I spent 1,500... you spent 11,000. I think you're gonna run out of cash first.

As I said before, the rod is not spent when used vs force effects, only when used vs items.
Plus, if you cast a cloudkill alongside the forcecage, you cannot see when the monk decides to cancel the forcecage.


I'd also like to point out that with minimal cheeze, a Wizard can easily get his DC's waaay up over 35+, making it possible for him to Disjunction the monk with ease.

With ease? A monk of 20th level (when the disjunction is available possibly with such a DC) has a will of 12(base)+12(Wis)+5(resistance item)+1(luck item)+2(iron will)+2 morale (potion) = +34. Good luck beating that will save for all the, say 10, AMF scrolls that the monk carries by that level.



This is, of course, simply assuming the wizard won't use Polycheeze to become Pun-Pun or something similarly broken. Heck, just turning into a Dragon then laughing as you try with futility to hit my AC of 50+ with your puny 3/4 BAB, plus the breath weapon, the aura of fear (which you'll have to save against every round), and natural flight (which the monk doesn't have).


I imagine that if you use all available material you could easily turn the monk into something similarly horrible.
If we remain core, the uber dragon shapechange extravaganza is over the moment the monk gets close to it with his AMF (so no need to even attack an AC of 50 here). The dragon frightful presence is quite cool and will get trhough the AMF since it is extraordinary, but even if it manages to overcome the monk's high will save it at best causes -2 to the monk's rolls.



Heck, the easiest way to beat a monk as a wizard is to fly up out of reach of the monk and rain down death and destruction. If he wants to fly, he'll have to come out of his AMF to get you. If he does, he's dead. Otherwise, you can rain down Conjuration effects on him and kill him anyways. Heads I win, tails you loose.

Now you are talking! That's what I said right from the start as being the best tactics available for a wizard. However, that still is far from being a safe win.
- if you rain stuff on him (what exactly is that going to be?), that sounds to me like inviting reflex saves, which means the monk with evasion and improved evasion hardly is affected by that (those abilities are also extraordinary and won't vanish with AMF up).
- the monk could get a griffon mount (whose flying ability the AMF does not hinder) to get after a wizard (all that is needed is the wizard to be within up to 320ft of the monk astrice his griffon).
- the monk could use ranged tactics with missiles that regain their magical properties once they leave the AMF (like slaying arrows).

But, admittedly, the wizard may have the upper hand IF (and that is a big if) he manages to get outside the monk's AMF/movement/jumping range fast enough.
But in such a situation I guess the likely outcome is a draw. The monk can retreat before the AMF is gone before the wizard can do much about it, and if an arena situation the wizard has likely a problem since the ability to move out of the monk's AMF/move is impaired.

- Giacomo

Jack Mann
2007-06-21, 05:38 AM
EDIT: Nothing to see here, folks. Missed the description in the force cage spell.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-21, 05:53 AM
and some short afterthoughts:

- yes, I'd agree that PvP situations are not the best stuff of the game. The OP asked about such a situation, though, with particular reference to a monk's abilities, so I commented.
- the levels so far tackled seemed to have been lvl 11&up (when AMF is available). At lower levels, I guess the monk also does quite well vs arcane casters and may have difficulties vs clerics and druids (the latter in particular) who have ways to boost their combat abilities beyond that of the monk with magic (which the monk can hardly counter yet with AMF tactics).

@pestlepup: thanks for the support :smallsmile: On your idea with teleporting next to a wizard: the problem is that in that case, the monk has used his standard action and can no longer attack the wizard.
@PirateMonk: the gating ideas are clever (gate in someone, order him to use his action for the current round for another gate etc) but eventually independent of the number actually gated only one will be able to do something vs the monk in that crucial first round when the monk can reach the wizard with his AMF. Similarly, using gate to get rid of angry titans is quite expensive over time...:smallsmile:
@KuraldGalain: the multiple actions available to a wizard with contingency, celerity, matrices, time stop choker shapechange etc. are powerful. But they also need to produce stuff (say, barring a gate) which will be able to defeat an AMF monk. Summon monsters? Won't help. Force effects around the monk and prismatic sphere around yourself? Will be destroyed with the rod of cancellation. Iron golems? Are too slow. Contingency? If not worded very carefully, will not go off once it is touched by an AMF from 10ft away. SpellMatrix? Only will get off 1st-3rd level spells. Time Stop? Depending on interpretation, you could not even gate in creatures since you cannot affect anyone but yourself or your familiar. The familiar casting? The same problems as for the master casting.
@TheOOB: Sorcerers are probably a bit stronger than wizards in typical PvP duels since they run out of spells later and are not dependent on learning in advance. But has your sorcerer ever fought against someone who used AMF tactics? (not necessarily monk, a paladin or fighter or rogue, maybe?).

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2007-06-21, 06:01 AM
I was only in fact responding to the comment that wizards could only get two spells off in a round.

But if those spells also need to kill a monk, use whatever spell you like to create some kind of magical fire near the monk, add a DimLock for good measure, surround the guy with a demi-spherical wall of stone. Oxygen runs out, monk suffocates. I mean really, a wizard that gets off 5-10 spells in a single round is going to totally pwnzor any bottom-tier melee class in the game, hands down.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-21, 08:15 AM
Ginkola is great...sounds like a Swiss herb drop.
As PirateMonk correctly said, a monk at the level of forcecages is immune to poison and thus the cloudkill effect. Dimension Lock would be a good idea, but you cannot cast it into the forcecage, so you would have to cast that first and one of those 8th level spells would thus need to be quickened (with a very expensive greater metamagic rod of quicken) to be cast in 1 round. Ah, and of course the lock has a chance to fail due to the SR of the monk which is still up even in the AMF.

Umm... with a time stop I have 1d4+1 free rounds... sudden maximize and I've got a guarenteed 5.




As I said before, the rod is not spent when used vs force effects, only when used vs items.
Plus, if you cast a cloudkill alongside the forcecage, you cannot see when the monk decides to cancel the forcecage.
Not true. No where does it say it is not consumed when used vs force effects. Also, any mage without some form of True Sight by level 20 is just plain silly.



With ease? A monk of 20th level (when the disjunction is available possibly with such a DC) has a will of 12(base)+12(Wis)+5(resistance item)+1(luck item)+2(iron will)+2 morale (potion) = +34. Good luck beating that will save for all the, say 10, AMF scrolls that the monk carries by that level.

Red Wizard of Thay. DC of saves easily up over 50's with minimal effort. More if he has apprentices.



I imagine that if you use all available material you could easily turn the monk into something similarly horrible.
If we remain core, the uber dragon shapechange extravaganza is over the moment the monk gets close to it with his AMF (so no need to even attack an AC of 50 here). The dragon frightful presence is quite cool and will get trhough the AMF since it is extraordinary, but even if it manages to overcome the monk's high will save it at best causes -2 to the monk's rolls.

The only way you could turn a monk into something similarly horrible is by taking so many levels of other classes that it isn't really a monk anymore, nor does it have it's nifty inuvlnerability to poison, so the cloudkill/forcecage works just fine.

Also, PAO is a permanent effect if he is already dragon-blooded, so he could permanently turn himself into a dragon, and laugh when you try to close with his AMF.



Now you are talking! That's what I said right from the start as being the best tactics available for a wizard. However, that still is far from being a safe win.
- if you rain stuff on him (what exactly is that going to be?), that sounds to me like inviting reflex saves, which means the monk with evasion and improved evasion hardly is affected by that (those abilities are also extraordinary and won't vanish with AMF up).
- the monk could get a griffon mount (whose flying ability the AMF does not hinder) to get after a wizard (all that is needed is the wizard to be within up to 320ft of the monk astrice his griffon).
- the monk could use ranged tactics with missiles that regain their magical properties once they leave the AMF (like slaying arrows).

But, admittedly, the wizard may have the upper hand IF (and that is a big if) he manages to get outside the monk's AMF/movement/jumping range fast enough.
But in such a situation I guess the likely outcome is a draw. The monk can retreat before the AMF is gone before the wizard can do much about it, and if an arena situation the wizard has likely a problem since the ability to move out of the monk's AMF/move is impaired.

- Giacomo

Raining stuff down on him doesn't necessarily mean reflex saves. I was thinking more along the lines of Quickened True Strike/Empowered Enervation. this gives him 1d4+1 * 1.5 negative levels. I put in the True Strike because I'm well aware how insane monk touch AC can be, otherwise I'd simply go with a Rod of Empower (not even greater) then go Quicken (rod)Empowered Enervation + Twin Ray (rod) Empowered Enervation. 1d4+1 * 7. And if I get more than 20, you're dead. No save. If he can't reach me, I can continue doing this every round until he falls over.

Solid Fog. No save, No SR, you're stuck. Rain down death and destruction at will. Doesn't matter if he has a mount or not, he's still stuck. Even better, you can put this in mid-air. Even more fun, if he's using a mount, wait until he's way up there, then blow his mount (which has NONE of the monk immunities or resistances) out from under him. Monk slow fall ONLY works when he has a wall nearby. Splat.

Also, here's a cheezy trick... Stinking Cloud. It's NOT a poison effect, but it is a conjuration effect. Sure, it allows a Fort save, but if you're stuck in it (like, say, forcecaged or Solid Fog'd in the same area, nothing RAW says they can't be cast on top of one another), you're eventually gonna roll a 1.

Black Tentacles is another good way to keep a monk ocupied, oddly enough. You'd figure they'd be better at grappling, but they really aren't. 3/4 BAB, usually poor Strength scores... pity really. And again, conjuration effect, so it's around even in AMF.

Also, sometimes it's best to attack his surroundings. PAO the ground underneath him into lava, for instance, then Resilient Sphere over the top as a cork to keep the monk from getting out.

Or just rain down the various Elemental Orb spells, doing raw elemental damage until he goes down. Again, conjuration effects that persist even in AMF. No reflex save, either. Quickened True Strike does for making the ranged touch attack nearly guarenteed.

And good luck trying to hit him with ranged attacks. Mirror Image. you've got a one in eight chance of hitting the right one. Meanwhile I'm launching ten times the damage back in your face.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-21, 11:43 AM
Umm... with a time stop I have 1d4+1 free rounds... sudden maximize and I've got a guarenteed 5.

But for casting dimensional lock you need to be outside a time stop since it affects someone.


Not true. No where does it say it is not consumed when used vs force effects. Also, any mage without some form of True Sight by level 20 is just plain silly.

Hmmyes, I admit that by lvl 20 a mage should have some way to look inside a cloud.
The rod of cancellation description is very clear: items drain the rod, but there is no mention of spell effects. Only in the spell description themselves it is added that a rod will also destroy the effect, without any mentioning of the rod being destroyed. For what that means, best read my sig...:smallwink:



Red Wizard of Thay. DC of saves easily up over 50's with minimal effort. More if he has apprentices.

Whoa. Do not know that one - but that may well be the case (although I doubt the "minimal effort" part, otherwise the Forgotten Realms would be ruled by the Wizards of Thay, don't you think?). But if non-core material is allowed, I bet people can come up with ways to boost a monk's will save to the stratosphere as well. And with an AMF up, the disjunction likely will not work.



The only way you could turn a monk into something similarly horrible is by taking so many levels of other classes that it isn't really a monk anymore, nor does it have it's nifty inuvlnerability to poison, so the cloudkill/forcecage works just fine.


As far as I recall, a pun-pun is not really that much of a classic wizard either...:smallbiggrin:



Also, PAO is a permanent effect if he is already dragon-blooded, so he could permanently turn himself into a dragon, and laugh when you try to close with his AMF.

Er...also permanent magic effects, and even non-artefact items are suppressed when touched by AMF.


Raining stuff down on him doesn't necessarily mean reflex saves. I was thinking more along the lines of Quickened True Strike/Empowered Enervation. this gives him 1d4+1 * 1.5 negative levels. I put in the True Strike because I'm well aware how insane monk touch AC can be, otherwise I'd simply go with a Rod of Empower (not even greater) then go Quicken (rod)Empowered Enervation + Twin Ray (rod) Empowered Enervation. 1d4+1 * 7. And if I get more than 20, you're dead. No save. If he can't reach me, I can continue doing this every round until he falls over.

But how exactly is this overcoming an AMF?
And even without an AMF, there are various ways around this. Just one: enervation attacks are quite common in the mid-high levels, it is not that unlikely that a monk carries a cheap ring of couterspell vs that effect.


Solid Fog. No save, No SR, you're stuck.

Cannot overcome AMF, since the fog is magical (it even slows falling!) it is suppressed in the monk's area.
Only conjurations that are instantaneous and create non-magical stuff like a wall of stone will help, but those cannot be used for attack since they need to rest on the ground.


Rain down death and destruction at will. Doesn't matter if he has a mount or not, he's still stuck. Even better, you can put this in mid-air. Even more fun, if he's using a mount, wait until he's way up there, then blow his mount (which has NONE of the monk immunities or resistances) out from under him. Monk slow fall ONLY works when he has a wall nearby. Splat.

Yep, the fun part is that the AMF has a 10ft radius. Nothing the mage throws at the monk on his mount will affect the mount excepting instantaneous conjuration effects (see below).



Also, here's a cheezy trick... Stinking Cloud. It's NOT a poison effect, but it is a conjuration effect. Sure, it allows a Fort save, but if you're stuck in it (like, say, forcecaged or Solid Fog'd in the same area, nothing RAW says they can't be cast on top of one another), you're eventually gonna roll a 1.

Stinking cloud cannot penetrate the AMF, since it is also a continuous magic effect.


Black Tentacles is another good way to keep a monk ocupied, oddly enough. You'd figure they'd be better at grappling, but they really aren't. 3/4 BAB, usually poor Strength scores... pity really. And again, conjuration effect, so it's around even in AMF.

Nope. It has a duration, so the AMF suppresses it. And even if the AMF was down, a monk can quite easily win an opposed grapple with his flurry and then move outside the tentacles. At higher levels, the monk likely has a ring of freedom of movement like most high-level PvP characters.



Also, sometimes it's best to attack his surroundings. PAO the ground underneath him into lava, for instance, then Resilient Sphere over the top as a cork to keep the monk from getting out.

Resilient sphere allows a reflex which the monk likely passes. Similarly, resilient sphere does not help vs AMF.
The ground underneath the monk is protected by the AMF. And the PAO does not have line of sight/effect to ground below that (similar to the usual rock to mud/mud to rock combos).


Or just rain down the various Elemental Orb spells, doing raw elemental damage until he goes down. Again, conjuration effects that persist even in AMF. No reflex save, either. Quickened True Strike does for making the ranged touch attack nearly guarenteed.


I guess the elemental orb spells would work if they are instantaneous in duration (do not have the rules with me here). However, you need to hit the monk's touch AC for those, I wager. So the wizard could quicken some true strikes, but not more than he has 6th level spell slots (plus some with a rod of quicken), but it is a big question whether with the orb spells alone the monk woud go down (while the monk could meanwhile attack as well). Targetting the monk's mount when he flies up with the orbs would be a good tactics, though.


And good luck trying to hit him with ranged attacks. Mirror Image. you've got a one in eight chance of hitting the right one. Meanwhile I'm launching ten times the damage back in your face.

Not 10times, I guess. A Mirror image is actually not the best way to counter archery, a wind wall would be more efficient in that case (not if the monk could approach flying on a mount, though, then a mirror image can buy nice time).

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2007-06-21, 12:08 PM
It would seem the wizard has a hundred things he can throw at your monk, and your single answer to any and all of them is "Anti Magic Field". That's not tactics, that's relying on a plot device, and one from the "list of Epic-level Obstacles", to boot.

Pestlepup
2007-06-21, 12:17 PM
- yes, I'd agree that PvP situations are not the best stuff of the game. The OP asked about such a situation, though, with particular reference to a monk's abilities, so I commented.

First, you're quite right. Though it wasn't intended as critique, just stating my personal opinion. :smallsmile:


On your idea with teleporting next to a wizard: the problem is that in that case, the monk has used his standard action and can no longer attack the wizard.

Ah, but that is where the Flash of Sunset comes into play (quite literally, even). I was referring to a tactical feat called Sun School from the Complete Warrior (For reference's sake, it's found on page 112.), which allows for three maneuvers. Inexorable Progress of Dawn, Blinding Sun of Noon and Flash of Sunset. The other two are of lesser concern in this case, but Flash of Sunset allows the monk to make a single attack at his/her highest attack bonus after using Dimension Door or Abundant Step class feature to move adjacent to an enemy. But you're right in that without Sun School a Monk can only teleport and not attack in the same round.

PirateMonk
2007-06-21, 01:03 PM
Here's what happens with AMF tactics:

Round 1: Monk wins initiative. He runs up to the wizard and casts AMF.
The wizard moves 30 feet, out of the AMF. He gates something scary (that isn't Su/Sp ability dependent) in.

Round 2: The monk runs up to the wizard, bringing the AMF, and punches him.
The wizard moves 30 feet and gates something else scary in. The first monster attacks the monk.

Round 3: The monk either stands to fight the monsters, or goes after the wizard again.

Et cetera. It continues until:

A) The monsters kill the monk.
B) The wizard runs out of Gates, casts fly, and creates some popcorn while he watches the monk try to fend off the monsters. Maybe drinks a healing potion, too.
C) The monk runs away.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-21, 01:04 PM
It would seem the wizard has a hundred things he can throw at your monk, and your single answer to any and all of them is "Anti Magic Field". That's not tactics, that's relying on a plot device, and one from the "list of Epic-level Obstacles", to boot.

AMF is a 6th level spell, not epic. And an AMF is not a single answer, but I merely pointed out that many spell tactics will not work vs AMF.

Otherwise, the monk of course has his good saves, speed, spell resistance, poison and disease immunities and good touch AC that make it quite difficult to overcome with spells.

Plus: Does it not tell anything if so much of a caster's ability is shut down by a mere 6th level spell? Still, it is quite situational, as is again a lot of a caster's tactics. In PvP, there are quite a few unknowns and hardly any "win buttons".

@Pestlepup: sorry, I misread some stuff. Yes, the feat form the CW is a good way to overcome the dimdoor/teleport "fatigue" and makes the monk more powerful outside core.

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2007-06-21, 01:12 PM
I am aware that AMF is a 6th level spell. It is, however, also on the list of epic obstacles. Besides, it is rather un-monkish to use 6th level spells, or indeed spells period. If the monk's strategy is to use magic, then the wizard's strategy should be to draw his Hackmaster +12 and slash away. Aside from that, one can shut down so much of a monk's ability by a mere 1st level spell (e.g. Sleep).

Oh and Create Popcorn? I'm totally going to research that. Does it come with a soda?

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-21, 01:13 PM
[QUOTE=PirateMonk;2773241]Here's what happens with AMF tactics:

Round 1: Monk wins initiative. He runs up to the wizard and casts AMF.
The wizard moves 30 feet, out of the AMF. He gates something scary (that isn't Su/Sp ability dependent) in.[QUOTE]

First problem: the wizard incurs an AoO by moving outside a monk's threat range. Monk grapples him (95% likely to succeed except on a roll of a "1". Get a luck blade with the extraordinarly ability to re-roll and that risk is reduced to a 1:400 chance). Wizard stays in AMF. No Gate cast.
But let us assume the wizard went first and cast gate.

[QUOTE=PirateMonk;2773241]Round 2: The monk runs up to the wizard, bringing the AMF, and punches him.
The wizard moves 30 feet and gates something else scary in. The first monster attacks the monk.[QUOTE]

If the monk reaches the wizard, grapple ensues, with the same chance of success as the AoO in round one. Now the mighty gated creature will attack the monk, but loses all magical boni touching the monk. It could join the grapple, though - but it will be unable to free the wizard in this way.

[QUOTE=PirateMonk;2773241]Round 3: The monk either stands to fight the monsters, or goes after the wizard again.[QUOTE]

Monk sqeezes wizard with flurried grapple checks. Wizard dies. Then the gated creature full grapples/attacks monk. Monk likely survives due to higher hp. Monk then escapes grapple in subsequent round.
Alternatively, since the wizard died, the creatures is no longer under control and acts as decreed by the DM/judge (which may not necessarily involve attacking the monk, but returning likely to the home plane.

As I said above, gate is the most powerful spell in the core game and should give casters the advantage. Advantage, but no "win-button".

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-21, 01:15 PM
I am aware that AMF is a 6th level spell. It is, however, also on the list of epic obstacles. Besides, it is rather un-monkish to use 6th level spells, or indeed spells period. If the monk's strategy is to use magic, then the wizard's strategy should be to draw his Hackmaster +12 and slash away. Aside from that, one can shut down so much of a monk's ability by a mere 1st level spell (e.g. Sleep).

Oh and Create Popcorn? I'm totally going to research that. Does it come with a soda?

Once again, all classes can use magic. It is not "un-monkish". It is "un-monkish" to lose vs a spellcaster, in particular in PvP :smallbiggrin:
The wizard actually has a spell to emulate a fighter, but that is not without drawbacks (CoDzilla is better in that respect).

- Giacomo

sleeping fishy
2007-06-21, 02:40 PM
giacmo--wtf?? monk... maxing out umd... and casting an amf?

ok, FIRST off, thats ridiculous, totally impractical for a monk... and even for pvp its pretty dumb, because you have WHAT chance of getting that scroll off? DC 31 UMD check?! Good luck! youre likely to just waste your round.

second, even if you DO win init, AND you DO get your amf up, and move next to the wizard with one move action... then the wizard just freakin tumbles away!! even a wiz with 14 dex & a +6 item (totally legit at lvl 20) has a 50% chance of making it! mw tool for +2 is only 100 gp... and crossclass ranks mean he can make it pretty damn early. so you run up, wizard tumbles off, then TELEPORTS too far away for you to reach, or gates in a freaking EPIC monster, like a FORCE DRAGON (good luck beating that in your AMF!!!) and has it fly him away from you... or just has it grapple you!! good luck beating it, or gettin out of that grapple... sry, your screwed. even w/o gate, wizard just drops wall of force or forcecage!! you want to get out? ok then you have to drop amf, that takes 1 round, then you have to use the rod, that takes a 2nd round, and you cant put the amf back up (which takes ANOTHER scroll, which you can ALSO fail to use) until the third round, in which thats all you can do!! wiz has 3 rounds, in 2 of which he can kill you w/ magic...
oh, or the wiz can put wall of stone around HIMSELF, half of a globe, hes safe while you spend forever punchin through it, can buff up, your amf cant reach him through the stone (which doesnt vanish in an amf)...
so even IF you win init, AND get amf up, wiz has tons of options.


and oh yeah, you CAN CAST DIM LOCK DURING TIMESTOP!! it affects an area, area spells that arent instant like fireball are FINE, itll start affecting people as soon as the TS ends.

Kurald Galain
2007-06-21, 04:30 PM
You don't win init because of Moment of Prescience (not to mention a wizard plausibly having a better dex than a monk), you don't get close to the wizard because of Contingent Dimension Door, and you don't grapple the wizard because of Freedom of Movement.

Pwnz0red, have a nice day.

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-21, 05:21 PM
Is anyone else as amused as I am by people arguing against a monk cross-classing UMD and then in the next breath talking about how the Wizard will have cross-class tumble? I'd say it's fairly asinine to arbitrarily say a monk would not bother cross-classing a useful skill but a wizard would.

So long as the monk can get within range of the wizard before any contingencies go off to get him out of the way and AMF, the wizard's defenses will do nothing. For example, Freedom of Movement cannot prevent grappling from an AMF-ing monk.

Note I'm not saying the monk is the clear victor, but he's not as boned as one might think (as I recall, the final opponent The OOB fought in his tourney was a rather vicious monk).

Also, from a PVP standpoint, why is contingency an issue? Do most PVP arenas allow Wizards to come into combat with a contingency in place?

And on the case of Celerity, does the wizard count as flat-footed for the first round of combat? If so, I don't believe Celerity can be cast.

Jack Mann
2007-06-21, 06:16 PM
It's less ridiculous for a caster to cross-class tumble than it is for a monk to cross-class UMD.

First, casters tend to have decent dexterity scores. It's one of their two secondary abilities (con being the other), and is in fact the one that people are more likely to have boosted in some way. He can give some moderate boosts to his dexterity while still focusing on his intelligence. A monk who has pushed up his charisma is neglecting his important abilities; strength, constitution, dexterity, and wisdom. Even under the best circumstances, it's extremely hard for a monk to keep all of these reasonably high.

Second, the DC is much lower for tumble. The wizard only has to make a DC 15. He can make that without putting too many points into the skill. +5 from 20 dex (to use the example noted below), and a masterwork tool for tumbling, and the wizard can make it on an 8. He only needs seven cross-class ranks and he can't fail. Possible at level 11. He can then spend his skill points elsewhere. The monk needs to spend all of the skill points he can dump into the skill.

Which brings us to point three. A wizard is likely to have more skill points to spend than the monk. The monk only has a base skill allotment 2 higher than the wizard. As intelligence is the other ability the monk needs least, the wizard should easily have 6 intelligence on the monk (especially one that's focused on UMD), for one extra skill point. And that's before level increases.

This all means that the wizard has spent a much lower amount of his resources to be ready for this encounter. The monk has had to give up a great deal of his effectiveness elsewhere just to be able to try this. The wizard is still effective in most scenarios. Indeed, being able to tumble away is a boon in most situations. Being able to make UMD checks is of dubious use to the monk, since it can burn through resources fairly quickly. Put the monk up against a fighter or monster bruiser, and he's going to take a pretty bad whoopin'.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-21, 08:10 PM
20 levels of Hexblade for spell immunity. Take that, casters!


You don't need a forcecage + cloudkill to kill a monk. Just cast otiluke's resilient sphere on yourself, then fly, then dimension door all the way up into the sky, and rain fiery doom onto the monk.

Improved evasion and a high touch AC is gonna make that a little more difficult.

FdL
2007-06-21, 08:21 PM
Oh no.

*puts head in hands*

Not again. Now we're going to get:

- 20 posts about how much monks suck
- 30 posts about how much wizards/clerics/druids rule
- 40 posts claiming how awesome monks are in their game
- 150 posts endlessly arguing the specifics of who would win in a monk vs. x PvP match, with both sides constantly changing the rules.

Didn't we just have one of these threads? Do we have to do it all again? Can't we just leave off the PvP stuff? Please?

- Saph

Yeah, also my mandatory post questioning the very concept of PvP in a cooperative narrative game like D&D :p

Damionte
2007-06-21, 08:30 PM
20 levels of Hexblade for spell immunity. Take that, casters!



Improved evasion and a high touch AC is gonna make that a little more difficult.

But only a little more difficult. The monk doesn't have anything built into his class to deal with that type of attack. Except to get out of dodge and re-engage when the battle suits them better.

The crazy thing is that a sorc or wizard realyl doesn't have to go all exotic to defeat a monk. You really don't need any spells above probably lvl 3 oor 4o to defeat a typical monk. Thier offense isn't good enough. At best the Monk can stay alive a coupel rounds longer than the other melee types against a caster due to good saves.

Damionte
2007-06-21, 08:31 PM
BAH double post

lumberofdabeast
2007-06-21, 08:33 PM
Please calm down. As I said already in the prvs post, the monk will be able to get out of the forcecage when he chooses to.

Just wanted to pop in and point out that you didn't actually address what he said, instead opting to be condescending in the hopes that no one would notice that he had a perfectly valid point. You cannot expect that the wizard will, once the Forcecage is up, completely ignore you and start whacking himself in his head with his spellbook, going "Dur dur dur! I are a unstoppable wizard!" The wizard will spend the time you're in the forcecage with your AMF up either preparing to kill you or, more likely, simply teleporting away.

Xuincherguixe
2007-06-21, 09:15 PM
Squirrel Raiser.


They can sic their deadly trained Squirrels on any enemy. If they also have levels in wizard, they can polymorph the Squirrels into Hydras.

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-21, 11:00 PM
It's less ridiculous for a caster to cross-class tumble than it is for a monk to cross-class UMD.

First, casters tend to have decent dexterity scores. It's one of their two secondary abilities (con being the other), and is in fact the one that people are more likely to have boosted in some way. He can give some moderate boosts to his dexterity while still focusing on his intelligence. A monk who has pushed up his charisma is neglecting his important abilities; strength, constitution, dexterity, and wisdom. Even under the best circumstances, it's extremely hard for a monk to keep all of these reasonably high.

Second, the DC is much lower for tumble. The wizard only has to make a DC 15. He can make that without putting too many points into the skill. +5 from 20 dex (to use the example noted below), and a masterwork tool for tumbling, and the wizard can make it on an 8. He only needs seven cross-class ranks and he can't fail. Possible at level 11. He can then spend his skill points elsewhere. The monk needs to spend all of the skill points he can dump into the skill.

Which brings us to point three. A wizard is likely to have more skill points to spend than the monk. The monk only has a base skill allotment 2 higher than the wizard. As intelligence is the other ability the monk needs least, the wizard should easily have 6 intelligence on the monk (especially one that's focused on UMD), for one extra skill point. And that's before level increases.

This all means that the wizard has spent a much lower amount of his resources to be ready for this encounter. The monk has had to give up a great deal of his effectiveness elsewhere just to be able to try this. The wizard is still effective in most scenarios. Indeed, being able to tumble away is a boon in most situations. Being able to make UMD checks is of dubious use to the monk, since it can burn through resources fairly quickly. Put the monk up against a fighter or monster bruiser, and he's going to take a pretty bad whoopin'.

That doesn't mean there's no conceivable reason a Monk wouldn't want to cross-class UMD. There are many uses Monks could make of UMD, and depending on where their other skill points are going, it's not at all out of the question that one might pick up some points in it. Rarer, sure, but it shouldn't be treated as a complete anomaly. I can think of any number of reasons, both fluff and crunch, to do it. Not to mention monks tend not to spend a significant portion of their wealth on a cool weapon, which gives some elbow room for other things. Having the ability to use a few scrolls or wands here and there gives the monk a good deal of versatility.

Jack Mann
2007-06-21, 11:54 PM
The problem is that because of the high DCs for skill checks, it's going to be difficult for the monk to make most of those checks until he's fairly high level. To be even that good at it, he's going to need a reasonably high charisma. As well, consider that he's not going to have many skill points. If he's raised up his charisma, then his lowest score is in intelligence (if it's not, then he's really screwed), so this represents a very large investment, to the point where he is no longer even as effective as a normal monk.

And while monks don't need a weapon or armor, they're much more reliant on other equipment than a fighter. They need to boost their AC (too much MAD makes it hard for them to compete with the fighter AC-wise), increase their attacks (they have a mediocre BAB and again, MAD makes it hard for them to have a an attack bonus anywhere like the fighter, never mind damage), stat boosters (four important stats, and now charisma too; this is going to take most of the monk's wealth-by-level if he wants to have a chance of using those scrolls in addition to being able to use his regular abilities), and any other equipment that a fighter might want.

Indeed, because he has to have a high charisma, his other abilities are going to suffer. If he neglects wisdom, his will save isn't so great. If he neglects dexterity, his reflex is shot. Either lowers his touch AC as well. Neglecting Con means he has few hit points and a shoddy fortitude save. Neglecting strength probably hurts the least, but makes him much less of a grappler and means that he won't be doing much damage.

Incidentally, this is a bit easier if you take, say, ascetic mage. But you have to take three levels of sorcerer to prove that mages aren't so great, which rather dilutes the argument. As well, it means wisdom has fallen by the wayside, which again means a lower will save.

Yes, there may be fluff reasons for doing so, but mechanically, this character is going to suck pretty badly. He won't be survivable in combat. He's acting as a caster, but he has to wait until higher levels before he can do so regularly. And he's still not as good at it as a caster would be, or even a rogue, who actually has a chance of being good at UMD.

Pestlepup
2007-06-21, 11:58 PM
Zombie squirrels! Boosted with Deadly Chill, Destruction Retribution and Nimble Bones, they easily swarm the hardiest of targets, and if the opposition takes to the air, light and handy to throw! Never feel left out at reunions again!

Jack Mann
2007-06-22, 12:07 AM
Well, they'd certainly take out Sir Giacomo's monk.

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-22, 12:19 AM
I just realized that +skill rings are for specific skills, not just generic "apply x price to whatever skill you want" like I was thinking they were for some reason.

In that case I must concur that a UMD monk is difficult and expensive, but I can still see application beyond AMF. Divine Power, anyone?

Still though, without being able to drop 10,000 on a +10 UMD ring, the build's a lot less viable.

Dementrius
2007-06-22, 12:56 AM
*Pokes stick in hornet's nest*

Anti-magic torc from FR Underdark. Expensive? Yes. But also gets around cross-class UMD tomfoolery.

sleeping fishy
2007-06-22, 01:14 AM
*Pokes stick in hornet's nest*

Anti-magic torc from FR Underdark. Expensive? Yes. But also gets around cross-class UMD tomfoolery.

pfft, w/e, underdark is 3.0 plus if were going out of core then foresight up & running (prebuff) or one of other ways to become immune to flatfootness + celerity + timestop means the wiz goes first & kills you, no matter what...

Whiplord
2007-06-22, 01:19 AM
The best part of this thread is that the OP left in shame after 2 posts. And yet, the arguement continues.

Oh well, carry on then.

Delaney Gale
2007-06-22, 01:23 AM
Ok, here's one I'm not sure gets around too much- a multiclass rogue/swashbuckler with a few smart feat choices is a one-on-one nightmare, and basically what the duelist prestige class really should've been. I teach rapier combat. I like having a better duelist. ^^

PvP has come up in our game because my character (a more advanced version of this build) is a duelist by trade, and sometimes while we're waiting for people to get their acts together (i.e. "Scott, you are not Sam Fisher. Stop playing the PS2 and get ready for game!") our characters spar for kicks. The Seriously Hardcore Duelist Rog/Swash is a great build for this because they're completely oriented for one-on-one fighting with a humanoid opponent.

Minimum:
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Improved Feint (requires Combat Expertise), Improved Critical, (Combat Panache optional)
Skills: Bluff, (Tumble and Intimidate with Combat Panache)
Stats in order of importance: DEX, INT, CHA, CON, STR, WIS

Advantages:

Astronomical Reflex saves. Rogue and swashbuckler have maxed Reflex, both classes strongly encourage high Dex, and with two levels of rogue you get evasion.
Decent Fortitude saves for a graceful character from the swashbuckler advancements.
Pretty good HP from the swashbuckler's d10.
Attack bonuses. Dex from Weapon Finesse and Int from the swashbuckler's insight bonus.
Feinting. I am of the firm belief that if you intend to have a combat-oriented character, they should have at least a few ranks in Bluff so they can use feinting to make a character flat-footed. Wait, did I just say flat-footed? What, my friends, does flat-footed mean to a rogue?
Sneak attack. That's right! With improved feint, you can be standing right in front of someone, flail your blade around a bit with a combat bluff, then stab them in the spleen for your sneak attack bonus.
Magic item usage. No rogue should be made without UMD*. You will already have good charisma to take advantage of combat Bluff checks.
Large crit ranges. It just makes sense to use a rapier with this build, but I'll admit I'm biased. However, why wouldn't you want to get a 15-20/x2 crit range? I take it to the next level and use two-weapon and a homebrew "case" two-rapier combat style with this build- at mid-high levels, even without a lot of two-weapon feats, you get 4 attacks/round, statistically giving you a threat per round.


Disadvantages:

Will saves. This won't be their strong suit, since WIS isn't important to either of their classes, and both classes have weak Will saves.
Things that are immune to crits. Every time I see a golem I narrate it something like this- "I go cry in a corner, you guys have fun".


Overall, not a bad build for PvP. What I like best about it is that the PvP pwnership is explainable by IC reasons. What can I say? I'm an incurable method actor.

*Re: above discussion on UMD- a monk can't take UMD unless they take levels in rogue or bard, it's an exclusive skill. Although a rogue-monk could get relatively badass relatively quickly.

Jack Mann
2007-06-22, 01:37 AM
In 3.5, anyone can cross-class use magic device. There are no more exclusive skills. There are only class and cross-class skills.

Delaney Gale
2007-06-22, 01:39 AM
I stand corrected! Yay having my Encyclopedic Memory of 3.0 (due to reading those books wayyyy too much) getting mixed up with 3.5!

sleeping fishy
2007-06-22, 01:45 AM
Ok, here's one I'm not sure gets around too much- a multiclass rogue/swashbuckler with a few smart feat choices is a one-on-one nightmare, and basically what the duelist prestige class really should've been. I teach rapier combat. I like having a better duelist. ^^

Overall, not a bad build for PvP. What I like best about it is that the PvP pwnership is explainable by IC reasons. What can I say? I'm an incurable method actor.

*Re: above discussion on UMD- a monk can't take UMD unless they take levels in rogue or bard, it's an exclusive skill. Although a rogue-monk could get relatively badass relatively quickly.

umm... sure its a fun concept, but its really not very good in pvp. feint = 1 attack/round, and str-based melee types will totally crush the swashbuckler... at the same time it has bad defenses vs. spellcasters (bad fort save, crappy will); ref saves dont really matter, the weakest spells hit them..

so, um, i guess i'd say overall it -is- a bad build for pvp... sry. not strong against anything, weak against everything...

Armads
2007-06-22, 01:54 AM
Improved evasion and a high touch AC is gonna make that a little more difficult.

Not really, you hit YOURSELF with the sphere, thus being invulnerable to the Monk's melee attacks. You can autofail the reflex save, and then you just run away

TheOOB
2007-06-22, 02:13 AM
@TheOOB: Sorcerers are probably a bit stronger than wizards in typical PvP duels since they run out of spells later and are not dependent on learning in advance. But has your sorcerer ever fought against someone who used AMF tactics? (not necessarily monk, a paladin or fighter or rogue, maybe?).

- Giacomo

Yes, I did fight AMF users (including a rather nasty monk), and won all of them even though the judge rules that my acid orb spell would work through it(despite the fact that the rules explicitly say it does), I had things like fly and telekinsis.

Unless the AMF person has a non-magical fly speed of perfect manuverbility and 60+ft, I don't see how their going to catch a halfway decent caster in their AMF, the first thing any spellcaster does in a match is fly up out of AMF range, and even if you do get me in your range, ill just move the 10ft to get out and fly away. If your field is really annoying I'll just use a prismatic wall or a wall of force to keep you out, or dimension door 400 feet away, problum solved.

Callix
2007-06-22, 02:37 AM
AMF is only any good if you can trap someone in it. Grapples are the true bane of casters, and as such a high-level monk with insane movement speeds and crazy initiative might just be able to grab the sorcerer and beat him into the dust before he can react. AMF just strips the monk of any magic item bonuses they might have. Unless they can force the other guy to stand next to them, they will be destroyed from range. Even their speed is supernatural at high levels (I think).

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-22, 02:37 AM
Warforged Juggernaught would be pretty good against a wizard. Throw in some psionic warrior and illithid slayer, you'd have decent mobility, and a LOT of attacks, as well as immunity to things that require a fort save (like cloudkill), drain (goodbye ennervate and enfeeblement), ability damage (neener neener, shivering touch) and mind affecting spells. With 6 levels of Illithid Slayer, the Wizard has NO way of detecting the warforged, outside of being a psion. That means the wizard will not have the advantage of being prepared by spying on his opponent. There's also a case to be made of whether or not foresight/celerity would work.


Not really, you hit YOURSELF with the sphere, thus being invulnerable to the Monk's melee attacks. You can autofail the reflex save, and then you just run away

I meant spamming blasty spells from above would make it a less than ideal option for killing the monk.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-22, 02:40 AM
AMF is only any good if you can trap someone in it. Grapples are the true bane of casters, and as such a high-level monk with insane movement speeds and crazy initiative might just be able to grab the sorcerer and beat him into the dust before he can react. AMF just strips the monk of any magic item bonuses they might have. Unless they can force the other guy to stand next to them, they will be destroyed from range. Even their speed is supernatural at high levels (I think).

AMF keeps spells out of it, which is very, very useful, as well as turning off forcecages.

A freedom of movement spell negates any grapple automatically; it'd be one of those spells you set up during your 5 rounds of maximized time stop, preferably quickened. Every weakness a caster has, there is a spell out there to counter it, and wizards have the luxury of collecting all those spells and cramming them into his spellbook. Bastards.

Armads
2007-06-22, 04:30 AM
I meant spamming blasty spells from above would make it a less than ideal option for killing the monk.

That's what Magic Missile is for.:smallbiggrin:




AMF keeps spells out of it, which is very, very useful, as well as turning off forcecages.

It doesn't turn off forcecages. They're the same as walls of force, which don't get eliminated by AMFs.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-22, 07:04 AM
OK, plenty of posts, I'll try to tackle as many issues as possible.

Just as an important note first: Pls, all of you who believe in caster strength: I do not deny that casters are cool and great. But they have no "auto-win" buttons in PvP, in particular not vs the monk. I'd suggest taking some of my comments not as an all-out attack on caster supremacy, but as ideas of how to combat caster strengths with non-caster classes like the monk.

Then: Thanks to Behold_the_Void- could not agree more!
@whiplord: you see, we do not know whether the OP "left", still views these posts, or if he simply as a new poster was overwhelmed by the typical "oh nos! Another doubter of the supremacy of batman! Let's trash him!"
As long as I perceive - imo - misperceptions about the game we all love, I just love to provide my opinion...:smallbiggrin:

And now on to some individual posts...


Just wanted to pop in and point out that you didn't actually address what he said, instead opting to be condescending in the hopes that no one would notice that he had a perfectly valid point. You cannot expect that the wizard will, once the Forcecage is up, completely ignore you and start whacking himself in his head with his spellbook, going "Dur dur dur! I are a unstoppable wizard!" The wizard will spend the time you're in the forcecage with your AMF up either preparing to kill you or, more likely, simply teleporting away.

Pls read the above posts more intently before assuming that I was "condescending".
I never expected that the wizard would not do anything while the monk is in the forcecage. Zincorium got worked up because he also thought I assumed the wizard would do nothing after casting forcecage, so it was not a valid point
The problem is: the forcecage is two-way, so the wizard cannot cast into it, in particular not with AMF up (he could buff himself, though, or use summonings). With an arcane sight up he'd notice that the monk successfully brought down the forcecage with a rod of cancellation (but not when the AMF is lowered ,since the force effect blocks it). However, when the monk does that, the monk still has actions (like the rest of his attacks) left - so he could maybe use missile attacks.
Getting an AMF up again in the following round (provided the monk survives the wizard`s attack) then is tricky (although the monk could use his move and tumble quite nicely to be able to cast without AoO), but the monk is not completely helpless without AMF...



You don't win init because of Moment of Prescience (not to mention a wizard plausibly having a better dex than a monk), you don't get close to the wizard because of Contingent Dimension Door, and you don't grapple the wizard because of Freedom of Movement.

Pwnz0red, have a nice day.

Valid points! However, if there is a pre-buffing round/buffing time, the monk has the AMF up already, so the wizard then will have to use his initiative to start (START!) flying up. Whether that will get the wizard outside of a monk's jump range depends on the PvP setup. Contingent Dimension Door is tricky, in particular in an arena. You have to specify ecactly where you want to dim door, and this could carry you outside of a typical arena in PvP. Plus, you need to specify when the dimension door should be triggered. "when something hits me" or "when someone tries to grapple me", for instance, will not help because the AMF has 10ft radius and thus surppresses the contingency before it goes off. Freedom of movement is surpressed the moment AMF gets within range.

Now sleeping fishy joined the debate with a lot of things that had been clarified before imo, and with some new objections to anti-wizard monk tactics:



giacmo--wtf?? monk... maxing out umd... and casting an amf?

ok, FIRST off, thats ridiculous, totally impractical for a monk... and even for pvp its pretty dumb, because you have WHAT chance of getting that scroll off? DC 31 UMD check?! Good luck! youre likely to just waste your round..


Pls read above that by level 11 (when AMF can be available) a 31 UMD check is not beyond a monk. And even if it were, he could even with a low UMD check try, re-try, re-try all AHEAD of combat if the PvP setting allows enough time before. The AMF is up for a minimum of 110 Minutes.



second, even if you DO win init, AND you DO get your amf up, and move next to the wizard with one move action... then the wizard just freakin tumbles away!! even a wiz with 14 dex & a +6 item (totally legit at lvl 20) has a 50% chance of making it! mw tool for +2 is only 100 gp... and crossclass ranks mean he can make it pretty damn early. so you run up, wizard tumbles off, then TELEPORTS too far away for you to reach,

Now this is a good point. I would definitely recommend every class to get some ranks in tumble to avoid AoO. Again, though, the tactics is not foolproof
- a DEX boosting item does not help in the AMF
- a masterwork tool cannot help tumble (what tool should that be?)
- not all wizards max DEX, although most should rank it after INT, as Jack Mann posted above
- Depending on the set up (if the move of the monk can corner a wizard), a tumble (which halves the 30ft move to 15ft, remember that all movement enhancers are gone in AMF) may not be able to move outside the AMF and still do a standard action. A double move and a quickened teleport can help, though. Even a withdraw move and a quickened teleport is an option (not necessitating any AoO) from the starting square. Again, if cornered it may not help).
- a large size monk (say, a large race) could cover even more area to make it difficult for the wizard to move away.

Note, though, that the monk can move so as to get within a range of the caster to make a charge (double move and then grapple), but outside the close range of the force spells...



or gates in a freaking EPIC monster, like a FORCE DRAGON (good luck beating that in your AMF!!!) and has it fly him away from you... or just has it grapple you!! good luck beating it, or gettin out of that grapple... sry, your screwed..

As also mentioned above, gate was already conceded by me as a likely (not safe!) winning move of a wizard. Available from lvls 17&up. But at levels 11-16?


even w/o gate, wizard just drops wall of force or forcecage!! you want to get out? ok then you have to drop amf, that takes 1 round, then you have to use the rod, that takes a 2nd round, and you cant put the amf back up (which takes ANOTHER scroll, which you can ALSO fail to use) until the third round, in which thats all you can do!! wiz has 3 rounds, in 2 of which he can kill you w/ magic... .

in the 1st round, the wizard will have no means to notice the Amf is gone, plus he cannot cast anything inside the force effect. So he'll have to do stuff outside (buff or summon) that could affect the monk later.
in the 2nd round, the monk waits for the caster's actions (again buff and summons) uses one attack to lower the force effect and then can use the rest of his attacks vs the summons and/or the caster. Not that optimal strategically, but not that shabby, either.
in the 3rd round (and only now!) the caster can fully hit the monk with stuff (quickened, maybe even three attacking spells at once). This will have to overcome the monk's formidable spell defenses. Again, the caster can be ahead but has no "auto-win" button. Monk then moves outside AoO area, uses AMF. Or attacks caster if caster appeared to have done nothing (like readying a counter vs the AMF).



oh, or the wiz can put wall of stone around HIMSELF, half of a globe, hes safe while you spend forever punchin through it, can buff up, your amf cant reach him through the stone (which doesnt vanish in an amf)...
so even IF you win init, AND get amf up, wiz has tons of options.


Forever punching through it? The monk, with power attack, likely gets through the stonewall in one round. And the moment even a small crack is in the wall, the AMF gets through.


and oh yeah, you CAN CAST DIM LOCK DURING TIMESTOP!! it affects an area, area spells that arent instant like fireball are FINE, itll start affecting people as soon as the TS ends.

Hmmm, yes you are correct here! I thought that since the lock requires a spell resistance to work on creatures, it would not work, but the time stop should be interpreted as such. Still, dimensional lock does not prevent the usual rod of cancellation tactics once the AMF is lowered.

Now on to Jack Mann...


It's less ridiculous for a caster to cross-class tumble than it is for a monk to cross-class UMD.

OK, first objection: it is not "ridiculous" to raise a cross-class skill. Examples for skills that make use for all classes are (probably some more):
- tumbling,
- spellcraft
- UMD
Sometimes also (if you want to be stealthy as a group) hide and stalk



First, casters tend to have decent dexterity scores. It's one of their two secondary abilities (con being the other), and is in fact the one that people are more likely to have boosted in some way. He can give some moderate boosts to his dexterity while still focusing on his intelligence. A monk who has pushed up his charisma is neglecting his important abilities; strength, constitution, dexterity, and wisdom. Even under the best circumstances, it's extremely hard for a monk to keep all of these reasonably high.

A charismatic monk is quite unusual, admitted. However, the above UMD at 11th level can get along with +22 bonus even without any CHR bonus. And you need much lower UMD to use the almost 2-hours-AMF way before combat.


Second, the DC is much lower for tumble. The wizard only has to make a DC 15. He can make that without putting too many points into the skill. +5 from 20 dex (to use the example noted below), and a masterwork tool for tumbling, and the wizard can make it on an 8. He only needs seven cross-class ranks and he can't fail. Possible at level 11. He can then spend his skill points elsewhere. The monk needs to spend all of the skill points he can dump into the skill.

Which brings us to point three. A wizard is likely to have more skill points to spend than the monk. The monk only has a base skill allotment 2 higher than the wizard. As intelligence is the other ability the monk needs least, the wizard should easily have 6 intelligence on the monk (especially one that's focused on UMD), for one extra skill point. And that's before level increases.

Yes, proportionately the monk has to spend more points for UMD than the wizard likely for tumbling. But he also gets more use out of it than a wizard having tumble only for that rare AoO occasion.


This all means that the wizard has spent a much lower amount of his resources to be ready for this encounter. The monk has had to give up a great deal of his effectiveness elsewhere just to be able to try this.

No, he has not. With the magical apitude feat, for instance, he can also better recognise spells that are cast, which is a good tactical option to have. The rest of the ressources? A fairly cheap magic item and a feat. All the other monk special abilities, plus feats, plus equipment are still there to use as needed.


The wizard is still effective in most scenarios. Indeed, being able to tumble away is a boon in most situations. Being able to make UMD checks is of dubious use to the monk, since it can burn through resources fairly quickly. Put the monk up against a fighter or monster bruiser, and he's going to take a pretty bad whoopin'.

UMD is a great skill to have, and much more useful even than tumble. The monk can use all wands, staffs (a monk weapon, btw!) and divine spells, with +22 safely up to 2nd level dvinie spells in combat, ahead of combat all the nice divine spell buffs. Hey, with a CHR bonus of +4 (not that hard to get even with a 10 starting CHR) he can even safely activate divine power and be much more of a force for an opposing monster or fighter in melee combat.
Scrolls are fairly cheap, in particular in PvP situations (which is also why wizards carry so many of those...).

Hmmm...since you already assume that Zombie squirrels would overcome "my monk" I could maybe post a monk build at 1st, 6th, 11th, 16th and 20th level to make my points. Will think on that...
@Delaney Gane...the build is quite close to a rogue concept, and that class can easily use UMD and thus AMF tactics. If the will save is low, your swashbuckling rogue could then use AMF for protection vs wizards and other casters. If the combat ability is not so strong vs melee combatants (CoDzilla, barbarians, fighters) then try to also provide the swashbuckler with good movement and a good ranged weapon to keep that at bay. Melee the (arcane) casters, and missile the rest (which may even mean sneaks if the PvP starts fairly closely, say 60ft from each other. Win initiative, move within 30ft, then greater manyshot adding sneaks to all arrows...)

- Giacomo

PirateMonk
2007-06-22, 10:11 AM
As also mentioned above, gate was already conceded by me as a likely (not safe!) winning move of a wizard. Available from lvls 17&up. But at levels 11-16?

Then the caster player will make a cleric and smash you into tiny tiny bits no matter what scrolls you're reading. :smalltongue:

What exactly do you mean by "not safe," though? Are you referring to the fact that the monsters could hypothetically come to attack the wizard some time off screen when the PvP match is over and the Monk is dead?

Yes, AMF is powerful against casters, just as 9th level spells are effective against, well, anything. But you'd be much better off being any noncaster but a Monk if you're going to use it. Rogues get more skill points, while others can be much more effective at squishing the wizard once you get him down. Anyone has less MAD.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-22, 11:28 AM
As also mentioned above, gate was already conceded by me as a likely (not safe!) winning move of a wizard. Available from lvls 17&up. But at levels 11-16?


Umm.... scroll, maybe? He'll need to make a DC 18 to summon a single creature at 34 hit dice for 17 rounds. Not too difficult at level 11.

-=====-

I think a disjoining mage would be a brutal PvP adversary. Even if you win against him, you've likely lost too much to be able to continue 'PvP-ing'.

sleeping fishy
2007-06-22, 01:24 PM
The problem is: the forcecage is two-way, so the wizard cannot cast into it, in particular not with AMF up (he could buff himself, though, or use summonings). With an arcane sight up he'd notice that the monk successfully brought down the forcecage with a rod of cancellation (but not when the AMF is lowered ,since the force effect blocks it). However, when the monk does that, the monk still has actions (like the rest of his attacks) left - so he could maybe use missile attacks.
Getting an AMF up again in the following round (provided the monk survives the wizard`s attack) then is tricky (although the monk could use his move and tumble quite nicely to be able to cast without AoO), but the monk is not completely helpless without AMF...
Oh PLZ!! forcecage comes in a BARRED version, maybe you noticed... and wtf, why wouldnt he notice the AMF going up/down? HE CAN SEE THE SCROLL BEING CAST, & he can Spellcraft it, plus arcane sight will show him "absolutely no magic here" and he'll be like "hmm could my powerful opponent not have ANY magic items?? Oh wait no its an AMF!"



Valid points! However, if there is a pre-buffing round/buffing time, the monk has the AMF up already, so the wizard then will have to use his initiative to start (START!) flying up. Whether that will get the wizard outside of a monk's jump range depends on the PvP setup. Contingent Dimension Door is tricky, in particular in an arena. You have to specify ecactly where you want to dim door, and this could carry you outside of a typical arena in PvP. Plus, you need to specify when the dimension door should be triggered. "when something hits me" or "when someone tries to grapple me", for instance, will not help because the AMF has 10ft radius and thus surppresses the contingency before it goes off. Freedom of movement is surpressed the moment AMF gets within range.
ummm... contingency can trigger first... can trigger it w/ regular speech as free action, as monk is rushing you... plus contingency can technically detect AMF & anything else (no limits on what it knows).
jump range?? youre gonna jump as high as the wizard can fly?? GOOD LUCK... how high can your monk jump? he gets +24 at lvl 20, 23 ranks, 47... great, let's say 48... guess what?? thatll let him jump 12 FEET up, thats w/ a running start!! sry, forget "jump & catch flying wizard".

oh, & as to prebuffing w/ amf, well guess what? if theres a "prebuff round" sure but then wiz has all sorts of short-term buffs (like his wall of stone up!), youre pretty much screwed... usually prebuffs have to last for many hours... three or six or even just hours/lvl spells... your amf is NOT one of those.


Now sleeping fishy joined the debate with a lot of things that had been clarified before imo, and with some new objections to anti-wizard monk tactics:
sry, but you "clarified" them wrong.


Pls read above that by level 11 (when AMF can be available) a 31 UMD check is not beyond a monk. And even if it were, he could even with a low UMD check try, re-try, re-try all AHEAD of combat if the PvP setting allows enough time before. The AMF is up for a minimum of 110 Minutes.
"110 minutes" isnt long enough for prebuff in most cases, its many hours active spells that get allowed. if monk has amf up already, wizard has tons of spells (that last as long or longer).
and by level 11? you fail like HALF THE TIME to activate your scroll... despite all that investment... sry, not a good tactic.



Now this is a good point. I would definitely recommend every class to get some ranks in tumble to avoid AoO. Again, though, the tactics is not foolproof
- a DEX boosting item does not help in the AMF
- a masterwork tool cannot help tumble (what tool should that be?)
- not all wizards max DEX, although most should rank it after INT, as Jack Mann posted above
- Depending on the set up (if the move of the monk can corner a wizard), a tumble (which halves the 30ft move to 15ft, remember that all movement enhancers are gone in AMF) may not be able to move outside the AMF and still do a standard action. A double move and a quickened teleport can help, though. Even a withdraw move and a quickened teleport is an option (not necessitating any AoO) from the starting square. Again, if cornered it may not help).
- a large size monk (say, a large race) could cover even more area to make it difficult for the wizard to move away.
wth?? dude, youre scrambling for any ridiculous excuse... "corner the wizard"?? how the hell are u going to force him into a corner so that youre blocking all of the wizs exits? Hes not gonna just GO there, & if you can bullrush him around youve already pretty much won... (& even if he was cornered, once wiz is out of amf he can move again, PLUS he doesnt need to tumble all 15 ft just the ones monk threatens, PLUS he can take two moves and cast quicken spell).
a duel wizard WILL have high dex (so wtf are you doing posting bout how tumble wont work if he doesnt... hello, +11 from just crossclass ranks), mw tool CAN help tumble (padded outfit to make it easier, tumbling hurts, or one of a bunch of others--you can make one for pretty much any skill). he CAN tumble away, period, sry.

why do you even do this?? your listing "wizard may not have high dex" & "monk may corner wizard" & crap like theyre actually REAL PROBLEMS, are you that desperate here??


Note, though, that the monk can move so as to get within a range of the caster to make a charge (double move and then grapple), but outside the close range of the force spells...
sure, w/e, just when is he gonna do this? wizard gets to act before he can charge. get real.


As also mentioned above, gate was already conceded by me as a likely (not safe!) winning move of a wizard. Available from lvls 17&up. But at levels 11-16?
"not safe"? are you gonna start the ridiculous "random outsider will devote life to trying to find the wizard on some random plane who gated it in for 2 minutes, to kill him" crap? first of all, NO, get real, not part of the spell AND it makes no sense... and second of all, irrelevant to duel. wiz can defend himself on his own time wiz can fly up and use scrolls of gate (since monk has scroll of amf), or just float around, make himself prism wall or sphere so monk cant shoot him, and wait for amf to go down


in the 1st round, the wizard will have no means to notice the Amf is gone, plus he cannot cast anything inside the force effect. So he'll have to do stuff outside (buff or summon) that could affect the monk later.
in the 2nd round, the monk waits for the caster's actions (again buff and summons) uses one attack to lower the force effect and then can use the rest of his attacks vs the summons and/or the caster. Not that optimal strategically, but not that shabby, either.
in the 3rd round (and only now!) the caster can fully hit the monk with stuff (quickened, maybe even three attacking spells at once). This will have to overcome the monk's formidable spell defenses. Again, the caster can be ahead but has no "auto-win" button. Monk then moves outside AoO area, uses AMF. Or attacks caster if caster appeared to have done nothing (like readying a counter vs the AMF).
yeah, right, youre still pretending caster is stupid. wiz notices AMF is gone because HE SEES ALL YOUR ITEMS START WORKING AGAIN, duh. arcane sight (permanency??), greater arcane sight.
also forcecage is BARRED, like i said above, so he CAN cast at you. using the rod isnt an ATTACK action its a standard action, sry (and why would monsters be in reach from inside cage?)
so caster has two, three rounds to hit monk with stuff. & monk wasted his scroll (how many does he have?? oneshot items usually made more expensive for duels). so wizard can do stuff stuff like (noncore) two rod-maximized "maw of chaos" spells, cl 21, take 244 damage each of 2 rounds (and more, if you live). for core, he can keep hitting the monk w/flesh to stone & etc (lets see, fort save 12, +3 from con, +5 from cloak), maybe dispel/shatter your +5 save cloak first... (or, hey, dispel/shatter your FLYING item, you can never get to him now)... or stone to mud/mud to stone, trapping you... or use TK to fling loads of giant arrows at you...


Forever punching through it? The monk, with power attack, likely gets through the stonewall in one round. And the moment even a small crack is in the wall, the AMF gets through.
why does the monk, w/ his low to-hit and no 2:1 damge, have power attack?
Lets see, 5' square per level... 9 squares to make a cube around the wizard, & more to make it stronger... 15 HP/4 CL... now break two sections (loop the wall, theres enough of it)... oh yeah lets not forget the HARDNESS, or that you have to do it with no magic items since youre in an amf!! good luck!


Hmmm, yes you are correct here! I thought that since the lock requires a spell resistance to work on creatures, it would not work, but the time stop should be interpreted as such. Still, dimensional lock does not prevent the usual rod of cancellation tactics once the AMF is lowered.
no, but your rod can be dispel/shattered... even assuming that it has many uses (it is CLEARLY meant to be a oneuse item, not an atwill spell negator. using it to cancel a spell is just like using it to cancel an item, and that beaks it).


A charismatic monk is quite unusual, admitted. However, the above UMD at 11th level can get along with +22 bonus even without any CHR bonus. And you need much lower UMD to use the almost 2-hours-AMF way before combat.
+22 is fail HALF THE TIME, that is REAL NICE... oh wait no...

Armads
2007-06-23, 04:25 AM
How much would a typical Monk's fortitude save be at level 20?

Using stats of 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 (already high-powered) at the start, the monk would probably put them in something like
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8.
Assuming a Con score of 26 (already a stretch, since he has all sorts of Monk-ey MAD) and a cloak of resistance +5, thats a +25 to Fortitude saves.

Meanwhile, the gray elf wizard 15/fatespinner 5 (Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8) with Spell focus (necromancy), Greater Spell focus (necromancy), Heighten Spell, firing a quickened heightened finger of death. He also carries a metamagic rod of quicken (greater). Assume he has an Int score of 36 (18 base +2 racial +6 enhancement +5 levels, +5 tome). Thus, he fires a finger of death, utilizing the 'spin' class feature to it's fullest, then using 'seal fate' to give the monk a -10 to it's save. After that, he fires another heightened finger of death.

The DC is now 39, and the monk's save bonus is +15. It will fail the save unless on a natural 20. Even after that, it must make another save, and it only has a 45% chance of succeeding on that one. Thus, the monk cannot even use it's 'i have all three good saves' properly, because it's MAD is too horrible for it to get decent stats. The wizard even wins initiative, using Celerity.

Scenario 2: The Monk sneaks up to the wizard, and succeeds on his UMD check to activate his UMD, and then moves up all the way to the wizard, and tries to grapple the wizard and hits, succeeds on grapple, now the wizard is grappled.

The wizard casts Invoke Magic, then uses a dimension door to get 1900 feet away. The Monk suddenly realises it can't match the distance, because it's abundant step has only 1000 feet range. Then the wizard turns around and teleports back to his study/zaps the monk with a finger of death/quickened maximized enervation + enervation.

If the Monk has immunity to death effects, then use Baleful Polymorph instead.

Jack Mann
2007-06-23, 04:33 AM
Don't forget, this monk has pumped his charisma up high, so he now has even more MAD.

My real problem with this, mind, is that even if it could do what it set out to do, it would be useless in most other scenarios. How well is this monk going to hold up against a fighter? Or a dragon?

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-23, 08:19 AM
OK guys, you really start to startle me.

Perhaps @Jack Mann first: I shall try to post a monk at 1st, 6th, 11th, 16th and 20th level over the next weeks (wil have to do some work on it yet). It is going to be based on core rules, 28 pt buy, and intended to serve as a source for to show that casters have no auto-win buttons and will offer plenty of anti-caster strategies throughout all levels. AND still be able to hold his own vs non-casters and even monsters like dragons.

The monk likely vs a high-level wizard has some problems, but the wizard hardly has any win-buttons, and any non-"gate spell" anti-AMF strategy I heard so far is not really that awesome. Instead you toss around with merely powerfully-sounding strategies that are easily foiled.

Typical example:


How much would a typical Monk's fortitude save be at level 20?

Using stats of 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 (already high-powered) at the start, the monk would probably put them in something like
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8.
Assuming a Con score of 26 (already a stretch, since he has all sorts of Monk-ey MAD) and a cloak of resistance +5, thats a +25 to Fortitude saves.

Meanwhile, the gray elf wizard 15/fatespinner 5 (Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8) with Spell focus (necromancy), Greater Spell focus (necromancy), Heighten Spell, firing a quickened heightened finger of death. He also carries a metamagic rod of quicken (greater). Assume he has an Int score of 36 (18 base +2 racial +6 enhancement +5 levels, +5 tome). Thus, he fires a finger of death, utilizing the 'spin' class feature to it's fullest, then using 'seal fate' to give the monk a -10 to it's save. After that, he fires another heightened finger of death.

The DC is now 39, and the monk's save bonus is +15. It will fail the save unless on a natural 20. Even after that, it must make another save, and it only has a 45% chance of succeeding on that one. Thus, the monk cannot even use it's 'i have all three good saves' properly, because it's MAD is too horrible for it to get decent stats. The wizard even wins initiative, using Celerity.

Now, there are so many ways against this I am surprised that you even suggest that. Of course, such a powerful finger of death is the end of anyone (including opponent wizards!). But...

...the monk does indeed not have a high enough save vs such a DC (guess the DC is wrong, it is only 34 in your example, not 39, although the fatespinner may give +5 or some such, don't have the rules...a re-roll from a luckblade ups the chance to 10% in all cases, and do not forget to add some luck and morale save boni which by lvl 20 are not that uncommon). However, if non-core as your fatespinner than there are sure a zillion ways to get that higher
...celerity does not win you the initiative. MoP arguably can (though some DMs may not allow this interpretation)
...even if the wizard has the initiative, in an arena like duel, the finger of death at the start of a duel likely cannot hit you since it is only close range
...the monk has Spell resistance (reducing success without level boosters by 50%)
...the monk with UMD can in combat easily get a Death Ward up or get non-core an item that provides that protection
...the finger of death cannot hit you if the wizard cannot see you (and there are ways beyond darkness and invisibility to make that happen)
...and what about the AMF again?



Scenario 2: The Monk sneaks up to the wizard, and succeeds on his UMD check to activate his UMD, and then moves up all the way to the wizard, and tries to grapple the wizard and hits, succeeds on grapple, now the wizard is grappled.

The wizard casts Invoke Magic, then uses a dimension door to get 1900 feet away. The Monk suddenly realises it can't match the distance, because it's abundant step has only 1000 feet range. Then the wizard turns around and teleports back to his study/zaps the monk with a finger of death/quickened maximized enervation + enervation.


Complete confusion on my side. The monk gets close the wizard with AMF, grapples him, duel is over. Casting the non-core Invoke Magic and then using dim door to get away by 1900 feet is highly arena duel-specific (for instance, a typical 100x100ft shape is fairly common). When outside PvP duel situations, the monk can also get a chance at a surprise round to bring down a wizard.
Plus, a monk getting that close with AMF in non-core duels simply uses his one attack action to do a stunning fist and a quivering palm in the same strike, then it's over in 399 out of 400 cases.
Alternatively: If the monk has more than one grapple attack (I am sure that similarly non-core as invoke magic there are ways to use pounce for a monk), then grapple, pin, prevent from speaking. Duel over (just abstracting from the fact that a pounce would do enough damage to a wizard in one round to knock him out/kill him outright.
The only way out then would be to risk a silent, stilled charm person/tasha's laughter spell with the invoke magic. But even inside AMF, the monk has very high saves vs such spells, plus still his spell resistance which is extraordinary and thus still up in the AMF.



If the Monk has immunity to death effects, then use Baleful Polymorph instead.


Baleful Polymorph encounters the same problems as the finger of death above, plus it necessitates a will save to really change the monk's mentality (he may still be able to abundant step/escape and retaliate later, although in a PvP he should give up except the DM allows the squirrel to use a scroll of greater dispel :smallbiggrin: )

Now, sleeping fishy...


Oh PLZ!! forcecage comes in a BARRED version, maybe you noticed... and wtf, why wouldnt he notice the AMF going up/down? HE CAN SEE THE SCROLL BEING CAST, & he can Spellcraft it, plus arcane sight will show him "absolutely no magic here" and he'll be like "hmm could my powerful opponent not have ANY magic items?? Oh wait no its an AMF!"

Er...in a barred version, the monk simply tosses the rod of cancellation at the bars outside his AMF (the barred version is a 20ft cube), then the AMF remains up.
Lowering the AMF is a standard action which cannot be recognised as such (spellcraft spell glitch maybe but as it is, it cannot be recognised).
Arcane sight only extends to 120ft, not always a range the wizard wishes to be in of the monk (who may have up to 180ft charge distance).
Plus, arcance sight can be foiled in various ways, AMF being one among them. If outside PvP the wizard behaves as if an AMF is up on an opponent everytime he sees no magic on that person, good luck...(because he'll blow all his non-save/SR force spells on the opponents that do not matter...)



ummm... contingency can trigger first... can trigger it w/ regular speech as free action, as monk is rushing you... plus contingency can technically detect AMF & anything else (no limits on what it knows).
jump range?? youre gonna jump as high as the wizard can fly?? GOOD LUCK... how high can your monk jump? he gets +24 at lvl 20, 23 ranks, 47... great, let's say 48... guess what?? thatll let him jump 12 FEET up, thats w/ a running start!! sry, forget "jump & catch flying wizard".


The speech thing is clever, but again not fool-proof. Contingency's main thing is to protect vs something that surprises the wizard. Surprise, though, means that you cannot act (even a free action is an action). Similar, if you lose initiative, you cannot trigger the contingency in that way.
Technically, you can set the contingency to go off when certain clearly defined effects come near/affect the wizard. But certainly not an AMF. If you set the MAGIC contingency to go off "when an AMF touches me", you're in deep trouble...I hope you see the logic here:smallbiggrin:
12 feet jump up can be enough (since the AMF has 10ft area) if the wizard is only 20ft up (from flying upward with an overland flight spell if he used a standard action in that round). For wizards that are higher up see my flying mount tactics above.



oh, & as to prebuffing w/ amf, well guess what? if theres a "prebuff round" sure but then wiz has all sorts of short-term buffs (like his wall of stone up!), youre pretty much screwed... usually prebuffs have to last for many hours... three or six or even just hours/lvl spells... your amf is NOT one of those.


With only a wall of stone protecting the wizard guess who is pretty much screwed once the AMF gets through? All other "buffs" do not help vs an AMF, because they are...MAGIC!
You are correct, though, that normally only hours/lvl or extended 10mins/level prebuffs are allowed. Which is why the the monk in PvP shoudl find ways to cast AMF during combat with the appropriate tactics to avoid the wizard for a while...but more about this in my monk build at a later date. But I can imagine that you would also find ways to do that if you would play a monk.



wth?? dude, youre scrambling for any ridiculous excuse... "corner the wizard"?? how the hell are u going to force him into a corner so that youre blocking all of the wizs exits? Hes not gonna just GO there, & if you can bullrush him around youve already pretty much won... (& even if he was cornered, once wiz is out of amf he can move again, PLUS he doesnt need to tumble all 15 ft just the ones monk threatens, PLUS he can take two moves and cast quicken spell).

a duel wizard WILL have high dex (so wtf are you doing posting bout how tumble wont work if he doesnt... hello, +11 from just crossclass ranks), mw tool CAN help tumble (padded outfit to make it easier, tumbling hurts, or one of a bunch of others--you can make one for pretty much any skill). he CAN tumble away, period, sry.


I outlined that myself as a specific example which I used to illustrate that one tumble check not necessarily gets you out of AMF trouble; it is highly duel site-dependant.
A large monk (racial, not magical), for instance, threatens more squares and could also get a reach weapon and combat reflexes to cover even more squares. If you then combine that with a more expensive and higher UMD widened AMF scroll, the wizard can get into quite some trouble.
All of this is not "ridiculous", but it merely reflects looking at potential for non-caster classes in a similar way as for caster classes. Look, you can accept or reject the ideas if you would not include them for your characters or in your campaign, but you would need to be prepared for that in PvP arena matches.



why do you even do this?? your listing "wizard may not have high dex" & "monk may corner wizard" & crap like theyre actually REAL PROBLEMS, are you that desperate here??


Like I said, that was a very specific situation. The ideas in the prvs paragraph should provide ideas what to do in non-corner situations. AMF is a good tactics vs casters and help greatly to reduce "real" problems in duels. like about most of the spells casters have.
And :since wizards at some point get MoP and not all may specialise in ray spells, some may prefer to up CON or even WIS instead as 2nd strongest stat.



sure, w/e, just when is he gonna do this? wizard gets to act before he can charge. get real.


If the wizard is somehow within a 180ft area (of a 90ft move monk), for instance because he tried close range spells, then he does not get to act before the charge. There are so many situations where both opponents after their respective turns are only within 90ft from each other that it makes no sense listing them here (for instance, if the wizard wants to get within 120ft to use arcane sight to even detect an AMF). Real enough for most, I'd wager (remember: the monk has faster movement than the wizard).



"not safe"? are you gonna start the ridiculous "random outsider will devote life to trying to find the wizard on some random plane who gated it in for 2 minutes, to kill him" crap? first of all, NO, get real, not part of the spell AND it makes no sense... and second of all, irrelevant to duel. wiz can defend himself on his own time wiz can fly up and use scrolls of gate (since monk has scroll of amf), or just float around, make himself prism wall or sphere so monk cant shoot him, and wait for amf to go down


"random outsider will devote life to trying to find the wizard on some random plane..." etc. What would you do if someone threatened your life once? Nuff' said here. Plus, some of those horrors gated in from beyond actually are...er...horrors, Chaotic evil vengeful creatures who would love to hunt you down even for less and imagined slights.
In a duel, irrelevant, yes. But the candle of invocation for 8,400 gold is available for everyone in that case. If a duel DM bans this, he likely bans gate altogether :smallsmile:
Gate I guess is a very poor duel spell. Everyone can get it via candle, a UMD scroll or from 17th level as a class spell. It basically (interpreted without drawbacks such as "unwilling") means you get double strength creatures to toss at enemies, likely a win. What kind of duel is that?
And even if gate is allowed...the monk's high move make it not a 100% safe wizard strategy to stay alive until the gated creature defeats the monk.

The prismatic stuff, again, is overcome by a rod of cancellation tossed outside the AMF and picked up again by the monk as he moves forward.



yeah, right, youre still pretending caster is stupid. wiz notices AMF is gone because HE SEES ALL YOUR ITEMS START WORKING AGAIN, duh. arcane sight (permanency??), greater arcane sight.

You in turn seem to pretend a monk player using AMF is stupid, which I showed above is not true. Once again, arcane sight, greater or not, only has 120ft range and can be foiled.


also forcecage is BARRED, like i said above, so he CAN cast at you. using the rod isnt an ATTACK action its a standard action, sry (and why would monsters be in reach from inside cage?)

The rod effect is triggered by "touch". You toss the rod outside the 10ft AMf in a 20ft cage, it touches the cage, cage disappears. You have your other attacks still available.


so caster has two, three rounds to hit monk with stuff. & monk wasted his scroll (how many does he have?? oneshot items usually made more expensive for duels).

How does a caste rhave two/three rounds to hit monk with stuff? In timestop, you cannot target others. Celerity is non-core and at best gives you 1 round of actions.
If scrolls are made more expensive in duels, it also hits wizards who often use scrolls.


so wizard can do stuff stuff like (noncore) two rod-maximized "maw of chaos" spells, cl 21, take 244 damage each of 2 rounds (and more, if you live). for core, he can keep hitting the monk w/flesh to stone & etc (lets see, fort save 12, +3 from con, +5 from cloak), maybe dispel/shatter your +5 save cloak first... (or, hey, dispel/shatter your FLYING item, you can never get to him now)... or stone to mud/mud to stone, trapping you... or use TK to fling loads of giant arrows at you...

Maw of chaos I don't know (can't find it online, don't have the companion). Does it allow spell resistance? And non-core, I guess there are also ways somewhere to enhance spell resistance for the monk.
For Flesh to Stone and all other stuff: see my finger of death comments above (although it has medium range, so it is better).
If cast all of that before the AMF is up, remember that it needs to be likely medium range or more.
You cannot dispel/shatter a flying creature. Plus, the creature would also be protected by the AMF.



why does the monk, w/ his low to-hit and no 2:1 damge, have power attack?
Lets see, 5' square per level... 9 squares to make a cube around the wizard, & more to make it stronger... 15 HP/4 CL... now break two sections (loop the wall, theres enough of it)... oh yeah lets not forget the HARDNESS, or that you have to do it with no magic items since youre in an amf!! good luck!

Power attack? Use staff for 2:1 (it's a monk weapon).
Luck is not needed. The wall is 5 inches thick, meaning 75 hit points in a 5ft section, hardness 8. Monk full attacks with power attack. Wall is down.


no, but your rod can be dispel/shattered... even assuming that it has many uses (it is CLEARLY meant to be a oneuse item, not an atwill spell negator. using it to cancel a spell is just like using it to cancel an item, and that beaks it).

I guess that the rod of greater quicken is more at risk than the 3-5 rods of cancellation the monk carries. You also need to have line of sight, as long as the rod is not drawn, no shatter/dispel tactics.
And pls do not say anything about "CLEARLY meant to be..." when at the same time you advocate gate without drawbacks as viable tactics.
But even so, I would disagree about the "meant to be" part. A spell is much weaker than a magic item. Why should a rod be drained from dispelling a spell when it could drain, say, a ring of wishes? Makes no sense to me.



+22 is fail HALF THE TIME, that is REAL NICE... oh wait no...

Get luck blade re-roll, heighten success chance to 75%. And for in-combat use, you should wait to use AMF for the higher levels (when you have the +30 necessary quite easily even cross-class).
At 11th level, it suffices to sometimes use AMF when the occasion presents itself, or ahead of PvP if allowed (say, in an extended version).

Admit it, you have been proven wrong, on most issues. Try to maybe learn from that or continue to believe in absolute 100% caster supremacy.*

- Giacomo

*EDIT: note that I do not say that the monk is stronger than the wizard in all cases, I merely reject the idea of a wizard being uber at all high ** levels. Note also that many of the AMF/antiAMF-discussion talks about lvls 11-20, but what about 1-10? But I hope to answer that with a 1/6/11/16/20 lvl monk build later
**2nd edit. Sorry- the discussion so far has more focused on 11&up levels, I guess.

greenknight
2007-06-23, 09:42 AM
It is going to be based on core rules, 28 pt buy, and intended to serve as a source for to show that casters have no auto-win buttons and will offer plenty of anti-caster strategies throughout all levels. AND still be able to hold his own vs non-casters and even monsters like dragons.

I suggest 32 - it's becoming more common, and you're going to need those extra points.


The monk likely vs a high-level wizard has some problems, but the wizard hardly has any win-buttons, and any non-"gate spell" anti-AMF strategy I heard so far is not really that awesome. Instead you toss around with merely powerfully-sounding strategies that are easily foiled.

In Core, there's not much which can counter an AMF, although there are some things which can help. Outside Core, there are several spells which ignore it (having some method of flying and casting Cometfall will do it if you're a Divine caster and are outside).


Now, there are so many ways against this I am surprised that you even suggest that. Of course, such a powerful finger of death is the end of anyone (including opponent wizards!).

Finger of Death is really easy to counter for a Divine caster - just use Death Ward. A Scarab of Protection also works wonders.


celerity does not win you the initiative. MoP arguably can (though some DMs may not allow this interpretation)

Yeah, it does, when combined with Foresight (and Arcane casters can cast both spells at higher levels). Celerity is one of those "should be banned forever" kind of spells, and provided you aren't flat footed (which you won't be, thanks to Foresight), you can cast it at any time - including before your foes act, even if you lose initiative.


The monk gets close the wizard with AMF, grapples him, duel is over.

This might work if the Wizard is surprised, otherwise it might run into trouble. For a start, who's to say the grapple will succeed? Without magical boosters, you've only got the Monk's Strength and (maybe) Improved Grapple. Strength is rarely a high priority for Wizards, but that Monk has a lot of ability scores to build up, so maybe it isn't such a high priority for the Monk either.


Plus, a monk getting that close with AMF in non-core duels simply uses his one attack action to do a stunning fist and a quivering palm in the same strike, then it's over in 399 out of 400 cases.

I'd need to see that. Wizards do tend to have a decent Constitution score, so their Fortitude save isn't as bad as their save progression implies. And if the AMF is up, the Monk's Wisdom score will be around 28 at best, and that's only if the Monk put all level bonuses into it and has a +5 Inherent bonus.


Contingency's main thing is to protect vs something that surprises the wizard.

I'd say more like to protect the Wizard when things go bad.


12 feet jump up can be enough (since the AMF has 10ft area) if the wizard is only 20ft up (from flying upward with an overland flight spell if he used a standard action in that round). For wizards that are higher up see my flying mount tactics above.

Most people would use a double move to get out of the way, so make that 40' - beyond the reach of a jump.


If you then combine that with a more expensive and higher UMD widened AMF scroll, the wizard can get into quite some trouble.

Widen Spell requires a slot 3 levels higher, so now it's a 9th level spell, and you've increased the UMD check by a lot. Remember, once you try to activate the scroll, it's gone, regardless of whether you succeeded or not, so that can get very expensive very fast.


If the wizard is somehow within a 180ft area (of a 90ft move monk), for instance because he tried close range spells, then he does not get to act before the charge.

Remember, that's 90' ground movement. If the Wizard is 90' overhead, the Monk won't be able to do all that much about it.


"random outsider will devote life to trying to find the wizard on some random plane..." etc. What would you do if someone threatened your life once? Nuff' said here.

Not much of a threat - it's only a temporary service (lasting a few minutes at most), and a Gated creature is often much more powerful than the creature(s) it's facing. It's about the same danger level as an ant poses against a normal human.


In a duel, irrelevant, yes. But the candle of invocation for 8,400 gold is available for everyone in that case. If a duel DM bans this, he likely bans gate altogether :smallsmile:

The Gate function of the Candle is something which should be banned, mainly because it's more reliable and cheaper than a Gate scroll. Gate itself should also be nerfed, but that's another subject.


How does a caste rhave two/three rounds to hit monk with stuff? In timestop, you cannot target others. Celerity is non-core and at best gives you 1 round of actions.

Yes, but in that one round, you can cast Time Stop (or Gate).


And non-core, I guess there are also ways somewhere to enhance spell resistance for the monk.

Non-Core spell resistance becomes pointless, thanks to Assay Spell Resistance (+10 to spell resistance checks, no save or SR vs this effect). And the latest version of this spell makes it Swift, so it's always cast as a free action (essentially).

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-23, 10:29 AM
Hi greenknight,

welcome to the thread- ah, I see you raise various valid points...thx


I suggest 32 - it's becoming more common, and you're going to need those extra points.

...hmmm, OK. Would be also better comparable to two builds we know...:smallsmile:


In Core, there's not much which can counter an AMF, although there are some things which can help. Outside Core, there are several spells which ignore it (having some method of flying and casting Cometfall will do it if you're a Divine caster and are outside).

Cometfall allows a reflex save (improved evasion reduces it to little or no effect).
...hmmm, I must admit that outside core, I know too little. Is there not any good non-caster stuff outside core that, say, boosts spell resistance, allows MoP items also to non-casters etc?


Finger of Death is really easy to counter for a Divine caster - just use Death Ward. A Scarab of Protection also works wonders.

Ah, the scarab I forgot...


Yeah, it does, when combined with Foresight (and Arcane casters can cast both spells at higher levels). Celerity is one of those "should be banned forever" kind of spells, and provided you aren't flat footed (which you won't be, thanks to Foresight), you can cast it at any time - including before your foes act, even if you lose initiative.

Foresight prevents being flat-footed, but is not always up. If AMF is not allowed as pre-buff in PvP, likewise foresight is not. And outside PvP in campaigns, it is hard to keep foresight up 24/7.


This might work if the Wizard is surprised, otherwise it might run into trouble. For a start, who's to say the grapple will succeed? Without magical boosters, you've only got the Monk's Strength and (maybe) Improved Grapple. Strength is rarely a high priority for Wizards, but that Monk has a lot of ability scores to build up, so maybe it isn't such a high priority for the Monk either.

Hmmm, by lvl 20 the BAB is +15, STR bonus maybe +2, grapple feat +4, so it is 21 opposed check vs the wizard's likely STR 8 and BAB 10 (9). But true, a stunning fist attack is better in AMF.


I'd need to see that. Wizards do tend to have a decent Constitution score, so their Fortitude save isn't as bad as their save progression implies. And if the AMF is up, the Monk's Wisdom score will be around 28 at best, and that's only if the Monk put all level bonuses into it and has a +5 Inherent bonus.

That would mean a Fortitude DC of 29. A wizard by lvl 20 has +6 base save, and +2 from CON. I doubt a lot of wizards with access to so many spells and with so alluring metamagic and other feats will have higher CON and/or even a fortitude +2 feat.


I'd say more like to protect the Wizard when things go bad.

Yes, but a contingency can only do one thing at a time. In depends really on creative wording and spell choice, I guess.


Most people would use a double move to get out of the way, so make that 40' - beyond the reach of a jump.

Yes, but that round then is lost for the wizard to do anything but move and a quickened spell. Flying 40ft up is also sometimes arena PvP dependent (if it is possible at all). Plus, you can get a flying mount (but again subject to PvP DM approval).



Widen Spell requires a slot 3 levels higher, so now it's a 9th level spell, and you've increased the UMD check by a lot. Remember, once you try to activate the scroll, it's gone, regardless of whether you succeeded or not, so that can get very expensive very fast.

Here I would disagree. If you fail your UMD, the scroll is not gone (same as for wands, it does not decharge- i.e. the spell goes off- if you fail the attempt, but does nothing). And you can re-try as often as you like. A "1" on a re-try only will mean you have to wait for a day to retry.


Remember, that's 90' ground movement. If the Wizard is 90' overhead, the Monk won't be able to do all that much about it.

True, however, with a lowered AMF and a fly magic item, all of a sudden the move is 120ft and CAN go up. If the wizard does not notice that (say, the monk moves outside Arcane Sight range), he could get surprised...by a monk charging him without an AMF.
Additionally, the monk could keep the AMF on the ground and do missile attacks.


Not much of a threat - it's only a temporary service (lasting a few minutes at most), and a Gated creature is often much more powerful than the creature(s) it's facing. It's about the same danger level as an ant poses against a normal human.

Well, the ant could also use gate to call a creature also able to pose a threat - so it is highly likely that a called creature will be angry, even if it came "willing" to start with because it only expected ant oppostion.
Plus, a monk has a 1:20 chance to kill the gated creature with a quivering palm effect - something an ant cannot do to a normal human :smallsmile:


The Gate function of the Candle is something which should be banned, mainly because it's more reliable and cheaper than a Gate scroll. Gate itself should also be nerfed, but that's another subject.

Yep.


Yes, but in that one round, you can cast Time Stop (or Gate).

Yes.


Non-Core spell resistance becomes pointless, thanks to Assay Spell Resistance (+10 to spell resistance checks, no save or SR vs this effect). And the latest version of this spell makes it Swift, so it's always cast as a free action (essentially).

The Assay Spell Resistance could, however, be brought down once it enters the AMF.

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2007-06-23, 05:27 PM
The fun thing remains that if the point is that AMF is a good wizard foil, every other class pulls that trick off better than the monk :)

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-23, 06:00 PM
Why?

- Giacomo

PS: it would be only the case if the monk had less/worse extraordinary abilities than the other non-casting classes and less/worse defenses vs magic until an AMF is up

Jack Mann
2007-06-23, 06:05 PM
Every other class has less MAD, except for the paladin, who is actually helped by boosting charisma. As well, the other fighter types are generally better off in an AMF than a monk.

Obviously, the classes that have the easiest time pulling this off are rogue and bard. Rangers, paladins, fighters, and barbarians are more powerful combatants in the AMF.

greenknight
2007-06-23, 07:48 PM
hmmm, I must admit that outside core, I know too little. Is there not any good non-caster stuff outside core that, say, boosts spell resistance, allows MoP items also to non-casters etc?

Not really sure myself. If it's anywhere, it will probably be in the Magic Item Compendium, so I'll look through that.


Foresight prevents being flat-footed, but is not always up. If AMF is not allowed as pre-buff in PvP, likewise foresight is not. And outside PvP in campaigns, it is hard to keep foresight up 24/7.

A caster can Extend Foresight through a Metamagic Rod, which is something which can't be done with a scroll, so at 20th level the duration is 6 hours and 40 minutes, which is enough to qualify it as a long term buff in many PvP games.


That would mean a Fortitude DC of 29. A wizard by lvl 20 has +6 base save, and +2 from CON. I doubt a lot of wizards with access to so many spells and with so alluring metamagic and other feats will have higher CON and/or even a fortitude +2 feat.

If the Wizard has (ab)used the system to gain free Wishes, then count on a +5 Inherent bonus as well. And again, that assumes the Monk has started with Wisdom 18 and used all possible level and Inherent boosts on Wisdom.


Yes, but that round then is lost for the wizard to do anything but move and a quickened spell. Flying 40ft up is also sometimes arena PvP dependent (if it is possible at all). Plus, you can get a flying mount (but again subject to PvP DM approval).

You're right, but that assumes the Wizard started on the ground. What if the Wizard started 100' up in the air?


Here I would disagree. If you fail your UMD, the scroll is not gone (same as for wands, it does not decharge- i.e. the spell goes off- if you fail the attempt, but does nothing). And you can re-try as often as you like. A "1" on a re-try only will mean you have to wait for a day to retry.

I was just re-reading UMD, and discovered something really strange about the wording of Activate Blindly:

Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate. You get a special +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you’ve activated the item in question at least once before. If you fail by 9 or less, you can’t activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.

The two parts I put in bold are very interesting, IMO. The first part says that if you're activating blindly, you don't activate the item unless you succeed, or fail the check by 10 or more (the mishap releases the magical energy). Since the DC of Activate Blindly is fixed at 25, that means your total check must be 15 or less to get a mishap. Furthermore, the second part indicates you can activate a scroll blindly. So if you have 3rd level spell or higher on a scroll, it's better to try to activate it blindly than to decipher the spell and go through the normal UMD procedure to activate it. Makes the entire "Use a Scroll" section practically useless, IMO.

If you're trying to activate the scroll blindly and your UMD skill is 15 or better (counting modifiers) I'd have to agree there's no chance of losing the spell from the scroll. If you try to do it the normal way, then your attempt at activation would cause the spell power to be released, but I don't see why a character would do that for most scrolls.


with a lowered AMF and a fly magic item, all of a sudden the move is 120ft and CAN go up.

Depends on the item - most won't give you that rate of movement. Remember, fly speed replaces ground speed, unless it's something which gives you Air Walk or something similar.


Additionally, the monk could keep the AMF on the ground and do missile attacks.

It depends on how big the arena is, because potentially the Wizard can just move out of missile range. Or the Wizard could just go invisible and be impossible to detect while the Monk is "protected" by that AMF.


Well, the ant could also use gate to call a creature also able to pose a threat

Problem is, most ants can't do that - they're just going to get squashed.


Plus, a monk has a 1:20 chance to kill the gated creature with a quivering palm effect - something an ant cannot do to a normal human :smallsmile:

That's an effect which requires a hit which causes damage (not always possible when you take DR into account), and only works 1/week. It also doesn't work against creatures immune to critical hits (there are a few creatures you can Gate which qualify). Meanwhile the Gated creature could easily have a death type attack that works as many times per day as desired.

Interestingly, I was going to say it's only a melee attack but I see nothing which restricts it to melee (unless you count the word "strike" as meaning a melee attack or maybe unarmed strike), or to a particular range, so it's a bit more useful than I first thought.


The Assay Spell Resistance could, however, be brought down once it enters the AMF.

AMF would suppress the Assay Spell Resistance rather than negate it, and while it was up no spell would affect the character anyway, so Assay Spell Resistance isn't something someone should be using in that situation.

Armads
2007-06-24, 12:50 AM
Casting the non-core Invoke Magic and then using dim door to get away by 1900 feet is highly arena duel-specific (for instance, a typical 100x100ft shape is fairly common). When outside PvP duel situations, the monk can also get a chance at a surprise round to bring down a wizard.
Plus, a monk getting that close with AMF in non-core duels simply uses his one attack action to do a stunning fist and a quivering palm in the same strike, then it's over in 399 out of 400 cases.

Eh? This whole encounter is highly arena duel-specific. You're assuming the Monk wins initiative, activates his scroll of AMF, then has enough movement to reach the wizard (possible with it's move speed, but again, it's arena-duel specific), and attack. That requires 2 actions, and also assumes the wizard is just standing around, staring at a wall and not doing anything.

Also, have you read this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10768110#post10768110)?

It's about Magic vs Psionics, but still, at the lower portion of his post, it shows the tactics the wizard could use, and is mostly Core.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-24, 06:30 AM
Hi again,

@Jack Mann: MAD may be an issue to show that the monk is the worst to use UMD/CHR of all non-caster classes.
However, imo, MAD is an illusion. The only class ability a monk bases some special ability on is Wisdom (which non-caster classes often also have to raise since it will give a well-needed boost to will saves). It is no more MAD dependent than other classes.
Meanwhile, it has plenty of extraordinary abilities, good skills and skill points, and the 2nd most feats of all non-caster classes. This makes it the best AMF class imo (possibly the rogue is better under some circumstances).

@Armads
Thx for the link. Lycanthromancer's lvl 20 wizard core build is quite impressive, and described in more detail here in a duel vs a fighter lvl 20 build (unfortunately, that fighter build relied on a dagger charge attack! So it was extremely odd and weak).
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728013

imo, though, Lycanthromancer (who himself said he never did a wizard before and only took 10mins to come up with his build :smallwink: ) makes various mistakes:
- gate cannot be cast in time stop, since it affects/targets other creatures. Time stop specifically allows only summons as exception to this rule.
- his prismatic sphere and wall of stone protections can be overcome with a rod of cancellation and any attack that does 75 dmg+
- a simple tactics is to wait/defend until the gate is over to end most of the attack possbilities
- the caster the idea to create several simulacrums as decoys (very clever), but they were in a bag of holding at the start of combat and need time to take out (which cannot be done during time stop). I also doubt their chances of prolonged survival in a lvl 20 duel (since they are only 10th level). Worse was that the caster projected himself astrally and left his body in the bag of holding (if I read that correctly) which greatly endangers the body in the bag if that bag ever gets attacked (sundered etc).
- Lycanthromancer also circulated the idea to shrink an "item" like an acid lake (could also be a massive stone boulder) and telekentically move it above some opponent, then quicken dispel it and thus opponent takes massive object fall damage (and whatever else have you). However, since there is nothing in the rules that specifies what actions a character can take (like reflex save) to evade a falling massive boulder, that is definitely open for DM's ruling.


Not really sure myself. If it's anywhere, it will probably be in the Magic Item Compendium, so I'll look through that.

Thanks for the effort. I vaguely remember items that give extra rounds for everyone (a belt or some such).


A caster can Extend Foresight through a Metamagic Rod, which is something which can't be done with a scroll, so at 20th level the duration is 6 hours and 40 minutes, which is enough to qualify it as a long term buff in many PvP games.

Yes, that makes sense. I guess the biggest problem for non-casters in high level play is to emulate the possibilities of magic for utility and research purposes, but I'll also think on that.
Otherwise, is it possible, anyhow, to make scrolls with metagmagic feats (like an extended widened AMF?)?


If the Wizard has (ab)used the system to gain free Wishes, then count on a +5 Inherent bonus as well. And again, that assumes the Monk has started with Wisdom 18 and used all possible level and Inherent boosts on Wisdom.

Well, the free wishes thing as well as infinite gate loops likely are ruled out in all PvP situations, simply because in any campaign it would mean a shutdown of said campaign before the characters are even born.


You're right, but that assumes the Wizard started on the ground. What if the Wizard started 100' up in the air?

Hmm, in that case flying mount, fly item (and AMF not up yet) to reach wizard, or best, missile tactics. But will think on that.


I was just re-reading UMD, and discovered something really strange about the wording of Activate Blindly:
(...SRD quote...)
The two parts I put in bold are very interesting, IMO. The first part says that if you're activating blindly, you don't activate the item unless you succeed, or fail the check by 10 or more (the mishap releases the magical energy). Since the DC of Activate Blindly is fixed at 25, that means your total check must be 15 or less to get a mishap. Furthermore, the second part indicates you can activate a scroll blindly. So if you have 3rd level spell or higher on a scroll, it's better to try to activate it blindly than to decipher the spell and go through the normal UMD procedure to activate it. Makes the entire "Use a Scroll" section practically useless, IMO.

If you're trying to activate the scroll blindly and your UMD skill is 15 or better (counting modifiers) I'd have to agree there's no chance of losing the spell from the scroll. If you try to do it the normal way, then your attempt at activation would cause the spell power to be released, but I don't see why a character would do that for most scrolls.


Wow, that is really interesting. Although as a DM, I would not rule it that way (basically it would mean that at 11th level a monk with a reasonably maxed UMD skill could use ALL scrolls 1-9 level without problems, that is clearly not intended if the designers put in a whole section on scroll use).
Still, I guess the endless retry-thing is valid.



Depends on the item - most won't give you that rate of movement. Remember, fly speed replaces ground speed, unless it's something which gives you Air Walk or something similar.


The monk's movement enhancement is added to all movement methods, including swim/fly/burrowing/whatever. So 120ft movement is possible with, say, boots of flying.



It depends on how big the arena is, because potentially the Wizard can just move out of missile range. Or the Wizard could just go invisible and be impossible to detect while the Monk is "protected" by that AMF..

Yes, that is a problem. Hmmm. However, if the wizard moves away very far, he can no longer affect the monk with spells and/or basically withdraws from the duel.


Problem is, most ants can't do that - they're just going to get squashed..

Yep.


That's an effect which requires a hit which causes damage (not always possible when you take DR into account), and only works 1/week. It also doesn't work against creatures immune to critical hits (there are a few creatures you can Gate which qualify). Meanwhile the Gated creature could easily have a death type attack that works as many times per day as desired..

Hmmmyes. But if they have that immunity, maybe they lack some different power that can mean the monk remains a threat/survives long enough.


Interestingly, I was going to say it's only a melee attack but I see nothing which restricts it to melee (unless you count the word "strike" as meaning a melee attack or maybe unarmed strike), or to a particular range, so it's a bit more useful than I first thought..

Yes, but here, too, I would not go so far as interpret it that the monk who normally has hardly any missile weapons can use that ability outside melee.


AMF would suppress the Assay Spell Resistance rather than negate it, and while it was up no spell would affect the character anyway, so Assay Spell Resistance isn't something someone should be using in that situation.

yep.

- Giacomo

PirateMonk
2007-06-24, 02:55 PM
@Jack Mann: MAD may be an issue to show that the monk is the worst to use UMD/CHR of all non-caster classes.
However, imo, MAD is an illusion. The only class ability a monk bases some special ability on is Wisdom (which non-caster classes often also have to raise since it will give a well-needed boost to will saves). It is no more MAD dependent than other classes.

...Huh? If they focus on Wisdom, they do minimal damage, their AC isn't what it could be, they die easily, and they can't do UMD tactics adequately.


- gate cannot be cast in time stop, since it affects/targets other creatures. Time stop specifically allows only summons as exception to this rule.

No. It mentions that summons can be used. Not that those are the only ones.

greenknight
2007-06-24, 06:24 PM
However, imo, MAD is an illusion. The only class ability a monk bases some special ability on is Wisdom (which non-caster classes often also have to raise since it will give a well-needed boost to will saves).

I think it depends on the campaign. If the DM is allowing PAO cheese, then Monk MAD doesn't really exist since Strength, Dexterity and Constitution can be replaced by a Polymorph form. If the DM allows Complete Warrior and Book of Exalted Deeds, then MAD is reduced because the Monk can take Zen Archery and (maybe) Intuitive Attack to allow the Wisdom bonus to apply to attack rolls. But if you're playing Core only with PAO banned (along with most of the other Alter Self based spells), then you need Strength or Dexterity (with Weapon Finesse) to improve your chance to hit, Constitution for hitpoints, Wisdom to improve the Save DCs of your special attacks and Intelligence to power your skills. That's pretty much a definition of MAD.


and the 2nd most feats of all non-caster classes.

No. The order of bonus feats goes Fighter, Wizard (Scribe Scroll counts as a Bonus Feat, so that makes 5 by level 20), Rogue (remember, the Rogue can take a bonus Feat instead of a Special Ability), Monk (the Monk goes after Rogue because even though they tie for bonus Feats at 4 each, the Monk's choices are more restricted).


This makes it the best AMF class imo (possibly the rogue is better under some circumstances).

Rogue is nearly always better, because the Rogue has UMD as a class skill, more skill points (with hide and move silently as class skills for stealth, although the Monk also has those) and that awesome Sneak Attack.


his prismatic sphere and wall of stone protections can be overcome with a rod of cancellation and any attack that does 75 dmg+

It also has to overcome the hardness of the stone.


a simple tactics is to wait/defend until the gate is over to end most of the attack possbilities

While you're waiting/defending, don't forget the Gated creature can be attacking, so you might not survive that long. Even if you can move quickly, some monsters can hit you with spells and/or match your speed.



the caster the idea to create several simulacrums as decoys (very clever), but they were in a bag of holding at the start of combat and need time to take out (which cannot be done during time stop).

Time Stop doesn't include that restriction. The things you can't do are:

* Target other creatures with an attack or spell. Note that since you can summon, you can bring other creatures to you, provided you don't specifically target them.

* Move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time. You can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

So there's nothing wrong with Gating a creature, provided it's not unique (which would require a specific target), nor is there anything wrong with dumping things from a Bag of Holding. The caster could even create a pair of Walls of Iron placed to crush a foe in an AMF, giving the target no safe place to escape to once the Time Stop ends (and thus, no reflex save to avoid the attack).


Thanks for the effort. I vaguely remember items that give extra rounds for everyone (a belt or some such).

There's a maneuver called Time Stands Still in ToB which allows a character to make an extra full attack, and the Greater Celerity and Time Stop spells, but aside from that I can't find anything which grants extra rounds so far. There's also a Mirror of Time Hop, although that simply sends a creature 5 rounds into the future (which might serve the same purpose as Time Stop for some situations, but the relatively low Save DC would limit it's usefulness, IMO).


Otherwise, is it possible, anyhow, to make scrolls with metagmagic feats (like an extended widened AMF?)?

It's possible to make scrolls with metamagic Feats (although some don't make sense, like adding Quicken Spell to a scroll). The problem is you still can't exceed the level 9 cap without going Epic. AMF is 6th level (and can be 8th level if the caster is a Cleric), Widen Spell increases that by 3, and Extending it increases it by 1. A spellcaster could do this without going Epic by using a metamagic Rod, although it would have to be the Extend because there's no metamagic Rod of Widen Spell that I can find (unless some DM allows it as a house rule).


Wow, that is really interesting. Although as a DM, I would not rule it that way (basically it would mean that at 11th level a monk with a reasonably maxed UMD skill could use ALL scrolls 1-9 level without problems, that is clearly not intended if the designers put in a whole section on scroll use).
Still, I guess the endless retry-thing is valid.

Yep. If you want RAW, then activate blindly is a huge loophole which any sensible DM would disallow in any situation where the other rules would indicate a higher DC. That said, I'd say a reasonable interpretation is that if you fall 10 or more below the required DC, then you suffer a mishap, releasing the spell energy. Which means you'd need to roll more than 27 to avoid a mishap if you're trying to UMD a 9th level Scroll.


The monk's movement enhancement is added to all movement methods, including swim/fly/burrowing/whatever. So 120ft movement is possible with, say, boots of flying.

I checked the FAQ, and you're right. I'm not sure how it is that Monks can do that with other movement modes, but that's RAW for you.


Hmmm. However, if the wizard moves away very far, he can no longer affect the monk with spells and/or basically withdraws from the duel.

True. Going Invisible is probably a better tactic.


Hmmmyes. But if they have that immunity, maybe they lack some different power that can mean the monk remains a threat/survives long enough.

The Gated creature will usually have 40HD or better and will probably have a template, making it's CR somewhere in the high 20's to mid 30's at least. It probably does have a weakness, but the CR difference is going to be a killer.


Yes, but here, too, I would not go so far as interpret it that the monk who normally has hardly any missile weapons can use that ability outside melee.

Again, the fluff indicates it's a hand strike (palm), so it would be fair to say it requires an unarmed strike, or at best a hit with a special Monk weapon. But it's interesting the RAW doesn't specify it as such. Oh, and I forgot to mention, Quivering Palm qualifies as a Death effect, so a Death Ward or Scarab of Protection would prevent it (although I'm not sure whether it's the initial attack or the save which would be warded, if it's the latter then Death Ward could be made much less effective against it).


...Huh? If they focus on Wisdom, they do minimal damage, their AC isn't what it could be, they die easily, and they can't do UMD tactics adequately.

Wisdom does improve a Monk's AC, so in fairness I don't think there would be much difference in that respect. Likewise, it improves the Monk's Will save, which can help sometimes, although the Fort save and hitpoints aren't going to improve that way. But usually a Monk should concentrate on improving Strength (sacrificing AC but gaining damage) or Dexterity (with Weapon Finesse, gaining AC but losing out on damage). Of course, as I mentioned at the start of this post, if PAO cheese is allowed, then concentrating on improving Wisdom is the best tactic.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-25, 02:23 AM
I was just re-reading UMD, and discovered something really strange about the wording of Activate Blindly:

Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate. You get a special +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you’ve activated the item in question at least once before. If you fail by 9 or less, you can’t activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.

The two parts I put in bold are very interesting, IMO. The first part says that if you're activating blindly, you don't activate the item unless you succeed, or fail the check by 10 or more (the mishap releases the magical energy). Since the DC of Activate Blindly is fixed at 25, that means your total check must be 15 or less to get a mishap. Furthermore, the second part indicates you can activate a scroll blindly. So if you have 3rd level spell or higher on a scroll, it's better to try to activate it blindly than to decipher the spell and go through the normal UMD procedure to activate it. Makes the entire "Use a Scroll" section practically useless, IMO.

If you're trying to activate the scroll blindly and your UMD skill is 15 or better (counting modifiers) I'd have to agree there's no chance of losing the spell from the scroll. If you try to do it the normal way, then your attempt at activation would cause the spell power to be released, but I don't see why a character would do that for most scrolls.


There is no benefit from attempting to meet activate a scroll blindly unless you are under a severe time constraint and do not have the time to decipher it first.

A scroll is not activated unless you suffer a mishap or is interrupted during casting. If you simply fail your UMD checks without suffering a mishap the spell is not erased and you can try again.

greenknight
2007-06-25, 02:50 AM
There is no benefit from attempting to meet activate a scroll blindly unless you are under a severe time constraint and do not have the time to decipher it first.

You've missed something very important there. Activating a scroll blindly has a fixed DC of 25, regardless of the caster level of the scroll. On the other hand, activating a 9th level scroll written by a 17th level caster (for example) requires that it be successfully deciphered (DC 34), and then activated (DC 37), and you may need another roll to emulate the ability score (DC 34). So with one check of DC 25, you can bypass up to 3 checks in their 30's. I don't expect any DM to actually allow that, but it is the RAW.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-25, 03:36 AM
You've missed something very important there. Activating a scroll blindly has a fixed DC of 25, regardless of the caster level of the scroll. On the other hand, activating a 9th level scroll written by a 17th level caster (for example) requires that it be successfully deciphered (DC 34), and then activated (DC 37), and you may need another roll to emulate the ability score (DC 34). So with one check of DC 25, you can bypass up to 3 checks in their 30's. I don't expect any DM to actually allow that, but it is the RAW.

Activating a scroll blindly refers to doing it without first deciphering it. The description could be more clear, but it has to deal with all kinds of items, not just spell completion.

I can see how this would be subject to interpretation if it was not because of the very last sentence of the description.


Activate Blindly: ...
This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.

This refers to the normal mishap chance that you incur from not meeting the requirements while attempting to cast a spell from a scroll. A possibility only if you also have to make the caster level check (through UMD or otherwise).

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-25, 07:00 AM
Thanks, Silvanos, for jumping in.

I'm still confused on the scrolls thing. Would you see that scrolls now can be activated blindly with DC 25 or not (basically meaning an UMD of +24 is all that is needed to activate ALL scrolls provided CHR/INT/WIS is high enough)?


...Huh? If they focus on Wisdom, they do minimal damage, their AC isn't what it could be, they die easily, and they can't do UMD tactics adequately.

WIS gives Bonus to AC for monks (which is the only class ability dependent on it). ALL non-caster classes make great use of STR, DEX and CON and thus are MAD.
WIS does not add to damage, that is true, but it adds to stunning fist/quivering palm DCs in combat which can be even better than damage (or lead to more damage).


No. It mentions that summons can be used. Not that those are the only ones.

Yes, but if you call a creature you target it (named or unnamed; you can, for instance, cast magic missile on a creature whose name you do not know). Since both gate and time stop are already bordering on the brokenness I would as a DM definitely interpret time stop as unable to gate in maximised time stop rounds with greater quicken rod 8 horrors from beyond.

- Giacomo

greenknight
2007-06-25, 06:15 PM
I'm still confused on the scrolls thing. Would you see that scrolls now can be activated blindly with DC 25 or not (basically meaning an UMD of +24 is all that is needed to activate ALL scrolls provided CHR/INT/WIS is high enough)?

I'm still confused on this one myself, as per the RAW. I disagree with Lord_Silvanos about activating blindly referring to doing it without first deciphering it (although for a scroll, that would be part of the process), since you can activate many things other than scrolls blindly, and in cases where you can activate them more than once (which is not the case for scrolls), you even get a bonus to the roll.

Re-reading it, that last sentence might mean that for a scroll, you don't need to decipher it first, so it effectively reduces the DC to a maximum of 25. Then all you need is to pass the normal activation requirements. So if you can roll high enough to be considered at least 1st level in the class (DC 21, although higher is better), and have the necessary ability score (or can make the necessary UMD check, DC 34 for a 9th level spell), you would then have to make a caster level check (DC 18 for a scroll made by a 17th level caster). If that fails, you would need to make a Wisdom check (DC 5, 1 always fails) to avoid a mishap.

Overall, that's harder than I first thought, but it's not as difficult as doing it the normal way for higher level scrolls. A character with 19+ Wisdom would only need to have a UMD skill of around 20 to have an approximately 50% chance of making all the checks.


ALL non-caster classes make great use of STR, DEX and CON and thus are MAD.

Those aren't as important for most other classes. Strength isn't as important for an archer type character (although it's still useful), Dexterity isn't as important if you're going around wearing heavy armor, and Constitution isn't quite as important if you have higher hit dice (d10, d12). Most other classes also don't really need high Wisdom and a few can't make good use of high Intelligence either. Monks benefit a lot from each of those things, although a Strength orientated Monk might not need so much Dexterity if Wisdom is being pumped.


Yes, but if you call a creature you target it (named or unnamed; you can, for instance, cast magic missile on a creature whose name you do not know).

In the case of all spells I can think of, you don't need to know a creature's name in order to target it. Instead you target it visually. With the summoning spells, all you are doing is summoning a creature (or multiple creatures) of a particular type. You don't need to know where they are or specify a unique creature because the spell finds suitable creatures for you. It's the same process with a Gate spell, in fact with only a few exceptions, the Gate spell is almost identical to a summoning spell.


Since both gate and time stop are already bordering on the brokenness I would as a DM definitely interpret time stop as unable to gate in maximised time stop rounds with greater quicken rod 8 horrors from beyond.

A better solution for a DM would be to fix the brokenness of both of these spells. It's alright to discuss RAW to form a viewpoint and get the official take, but in-game the DM can and should make house rules to fix issues with the RAW.

Sir Giacomo
2007-06-26, 03:52 AM
I'm still confused on this one myself, as per the RAW. I disagree with Lord_Silvanos about activating blindly referring to doing it without first deciphering it (although for a scroll, that would be part of the process), since you can activate many things other than scrolls blindly, and in cases where you can activate them more than once (which is not the case for scrolls), you even get a bonus to the roll.

Re-reading it, that last sentence might mean that for a scroll, you don't need to decipher it first, so it effectively reduces the DC to a maximum of 25. Then all you need is to pass the normal activation requirements. So if you can roll high enough to be considered at least 1st level in the class (DC 21, although higher is better), and have the necessary ability score (or can make the necessary UMD check, DC 34 for a 9th level spell), you would then have to make a caster level check (DC 18 for a scroll made by a 17th level caster). If that fails, you would need to make a Wisdom check (DC 5, 1 always fails) to avoid a mishap.

Overall, that's harder than I first thought, but it's not as difficult as doing it the normal way for higher level scrolls. A character with 19+ Wisdom would only need to have a UMD skill of around 20 to have an approximately 50% chance of making all the checks.


Hmmm...I don't know if I would agree here. So far, I thought that to activate a scroll there are three ways:
1) you have it on your class list and are high enough level and have high enough requisite score. No problem, no check needed.
2) you fail to fulfill at least one of the conditions in 1); then the scroll activation rules of the DMG are relevant
3) you have the UMD skill and use the section on scrolls. The checks needed: -decipher with UMD (25+spell level) beforehand. No ill effects, but can be only tried 1/day
-use wih UMD (20+minimum caster level). Re-try as often as you like, only on a "1" retry wait for a day. Ability score can be emulated with UMD-15.

And now it seems as if a simple UMD vs DC 25 could replace all of 3). But in no case a caster level check is required, which would only be needed for 2).



Those aren't as important for most other classes. Strength isn't as important for an archer type character (although it's still useful), Dexterity isn't as important if you're going around wearing heavy armor, and Constitution isn't quite as important if you have higher hit dice (d10, d12). Most other classes also don't really need high Wisdom and a few can't make good use of high Intelligence either. Monks benefit a lot from each of those things, although a Strength orientated Monk might not need so much Dexterity if Wisdom is being pumped.

Let me try to oppose the myth of monk MAD in a different way:
Well, archer is a role, not a class. In fact, all character classes could be made into an archer and thus would not need STR that much as DEX. The monk is not "meant" to fill any particular role; similar to the fighter.
He could be a tank (needs high CON and DEX then), or a scout (needs high DEX and INT then for skill pts), or a melee attacker (needs STR and CON then, making up with combat tricks for lack of armour, or goes defensive with WIS and DEX) or a party face (needs high CHR and INT then), or a mage hunter (needs high WIS and DEX then) or an archer (needs high STR and DEX then), and so on. Similar to all other classes.
Actually, they are, in ways less MAD than, say, a fighter or a rogue. Consider this: both classes actually need somehow to find defenses vs magic attacks. The monk already got a high base will save. If all classes would then put some points into WIS, the monk would be ahead in that respect, too, since WIS gives him great synergy like spot/listen (class skills, as the rogue) and hsi special abilites AC/stun/quivering palm (which even the rogue does not have). Turning back to the archer role, again the monk (as the divine casters) could non-core take zen archery and thus make disproportionately more use out of WIS than any other class.



In the case of all spells I can think of, you don't need to know a creature's name in order to target it. Instead you target it visually. With the summoning spells, all you are doing is summoning a creature (or multiple creatures) of a particular type. You don't need to know where they are or specify a unique creature because the spell finds suitable creatures for you. It's the same process with a Gate spell, in fact with only a few exceptions, the Gate spell is almost identical to a summoning spell.

In my view, even the summoning clearly contradicts what the spell time stop is doing (freezing time for EVERYONE but yourself/your familiar). So how can you affect others, and with a summoning/calling effect, at that? Makes no sense to me.
Since the spell specifically says summoning (although it does not say summoning spells, so it could mean only sending messages or some such), summoning spells should be OK. But the massive Gate effect?
From the SRD:
By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.

Pull someone through within time stop?
No way.


A better solution for a DM would be to fix the brokenness of both of these spells. It's alright to discuss RAW to form a viewpoint and get the official take, but in-game the DM can and should make house rules to fix issues with the RAW.

Yes, house rules are definitely needed on those spells- although I would argue that the basis for those rules (say, in a RAI way) are already there.

- Giacomo