*SPOILERS* Questions about Pillars of Eternity

[NRSASD]

So, I've beaten the base game of Pillars of Eternity and really had a good time with it. That said, I've got a few questions about various parts of the lore. I'm not sure if I missed the explanations somewhere or if they've been left deliberately vague. Needless to say, this is going to be very spoiler heavy. I'm going to spoiler tag the questions, but any responses should be fine without them. If the answers are covered in either part of the White March expansions, just let me know that the answer exists without spoiling please!

What is this stuff? We know it's a green magical rock/shell that seems to play a critical part in the world's reincarnation cycle, but do we know what or why it is? It apparently "grows", is described as shell-like, and is an absurdly good conduit for souls, which seems to suggest it's "alive". Do we know anything more about it?
The lore goes to great lengths to describe how souls are responsible for magic, magical creatures, and most "mental illnesses" but remains curiously silent about Godlikes. Given that they're born to ordinary parents, their souls are almost certainly responsible for their condition, but even animancers seem to have no interest in them. Do we know anything more about them or why the world at large appears uninterested in them?
The Engwithans were a society that understood more about soul magic and animancy than modern civilization does today. They appear to have been comprised of all races, which is odd because each race has a specific geological place of origin in the modern world. Why was their nation so diverse when all the modern factions are relatively homogeneous? Were they an international globe spanning culture? What happened to them? I know a lot of them got zapped in Sun-in-Shadow, but surely some Engwithans survived that incident...?
I realize that it's deliberately ambiguous whether or not Eothas actually possessed Waidwen, but do we have any idea why Eothas could have decided to take such a drastic approach? It seems out of place for a god of mercy to deliberately possess someone and go berserk, as several characters note.

As always, thanks for the input!

[houlio]

As far as I can remember from playing, I think the Engwithans had enclaves all over the place, and their god machine thingies were spread over the world as well (I believe you only see Woedica's). Not all the Engwithans died, but the ones that didn't went to be the Leaden Key I believe.

I believe if you follow through with Durance's backstory, its implied that Eothas was trying to prevent the events of the main game from happening by invading the Dyrwood. Magran decided to team up with Woedica to blow him up, because she's like that.

That's what I remember my interpretation of events was for those two. I don't recall anymore information for the others.

[Narkis]

Been a few months since I played the game, and I've played neither of the expansions, but this is what I remember from the base game:

I believe you've included everything known about Adra. At least I don't remember anything else being mentioned

Again, nothing more mentioned about them afaik. That was, by the way, my biggest issue with the game and its world. Various cool ideas that weren't properly connected to create a cohesive whole.

I don't remember them being globe-spanning, or containing all races. Were did you get that? I thought their ruins and artifacts were so coveted because they could only be found in the new world, where the game is set.

I was left with the impression that Eothas did possess him, in order to, as houlio said, stop Woedica's scheme and the main game from happening. It could be argued this was the lesser evil, though Magran, and others, would disagree. The only ambiguous thing was whether he was dead for good, or would reappear in time.

Also, are the spoiler tags really necessary? With "spoilers" in the title, I really doubt anyone who hasn't finished the game is gonna wander into the thread.

[NRSASD]

@Narkis Nope, they aren't.
I'm going to spoiler tag the questions, but any responses should be fine without them.

Yeah, it bugged me because the game world bent over backwards to make everything magical fit together (and did a decent job), while ignoring the Godlikes and the Adra. I'm hoping we'll see more explanations about it in future games.

About Engwithans: Even though all the ruins we see/hear of are in the Dyrwood, they have murals depicting all the races living in harmony.

[Narkis]

@Narkis Nope, they aren't.

Yeah, it bugged me because the game world bent over backwards to make everything magical fit together (and did a decent job), while ignoring the Godlikes and the Adra. I'm hoping we'll see more explanations about it in future games.

Actually, I can't agree on the "decent job" part. Ciphers and animancy were connected, yes, and even adra was relevant to the major workings of the setting, even though our knowledge of it is incomplete. But wizards were disconnected to anything else, and druids and paladins had a tenuous connection at best. These felt more like classes that were included just because Obsidian used to make DnD games, not because their kinds of magic fit into the world they made.


About Engwithans: Even though all the ruins we see/hear of are in the Dyrwood, they have murals depicting all the races living in harmony.

I don't think these depict the reality of Engwithan society. We find out the truth about them and they weren't a pleasant people. Instead, I think these represented what they thought would happen with the success of their plan, the reason for their sacrifice.

[Domochevsky]

Speaking of... that "twist" near the end did not work at all, I find. >_>

Whatsherface steps out of the soul crystal and tells you the shocking truth about the world...!

Brace yourself for it!

The gods...



...don't exist!

[Everyone in the party gasps in shock, questioning their life choices.]

MC: "...hold on a minute. Who did I talk to not even two rooms before? And throughout the game on multiple occasions? And who are we getting those divine powers from? Oh, I can't ask that? Nevermind then." :smallconfused:

Like, they do exist. The only question about them is their origin. They were apparently created by the Engwithans and beforehand there were no gods? Ok.
Where did they get their powers from? Why does that make a difference now? If it quaks like a god, smites like a god and creates like a god, can it really be said to not be a god? vov

That game did not nail the landing. (Was pretty solid otherwise though. But the "real time with pause" combat unfortunately doesn't work for me anymore. Back when I played BG2 that was still fine, but now I don't have the patience for that anymore. Do either one or the other but not both at the same time. :smallsigh: )

[Tehnar]

So I'm going to spoil stuff, without spoiler tags...you have been warned.












Adra is this funky stone you can put a soul in. If there is a soul inside it can grow. When Engwhintians did their sacrifice thingy, they put their souls in the Adra and it went grew rapidly, its pillars extending toward the core of the planet. It is speculated that there is a bunch of Adra at the core, and that is where the gods "live". The pillars allow them to communicate/give powers to their followers.


There is a lot going on with the gods behind the scenes, and lots of internal strife but the crux is they are not omnipowerful. They decided to destroy the main engwithian home continent to prevent mortals from figuring out their secrets. In the new world they decided to enlist Glawhantians (sp?) to protect their holy places.


I agree the game did not end the landing. Not the gods part, there were plenty of clues about that. Just the personal connection your character has to all of this was laid out to you in the last hour and it was kind of meh.

[Morty]

Actually, I can't agree on the "decent job" part. Ciphers and animancy were connected, yes, and even adra was relevant to the major workings of the setting, even though our knowledge of it is incomplete. But wizards were disconnected to anything else, and druids and paladins had a tenuous connection at best. These felt more like classes that were included just because Obsidian used to make DnD games, not because their kinds of magic fit into the world they made.

Pillars is generally a mix of good, fresh ideas and stuff they had to include because they marketed it to the old-school crowd, so that may be an apt summary.

[ArlEammon]

Speaking of... that "twist" near the end did not work at all, I find. >_>

Whatsherface steps out of the soul crystal and tells you the shocking truth about the world...!

Brace yourself for it!

The gods...



...don't exist!

[Everyone in the party gasps in shock, questioning their life choices.]

MC: "...hold on a minute. Who did I talk to not even two rooms before? And throughout the game on multiple occasions? And who are we getting those divine powers from? Oh, I can't ask that? Nevermind then." :smallconfused:

Like, they do exist. The only question about them is their origin. They were apparently created by the Engwithans and beforehand there were no gods? Ok.
Where did they get their powers from? Why does that make a difference now? If it quaks like a god, smites like a god and creates like a god, can it really be said to not be a god? vov

That game did not nail the landing. (Was pretty solid otherwise though. But the "real time with pause" combat unfortunately doesn't work for me anymore. Back when I played BG2 that was still fine, but now I don't have the patience for that anymore. Do either one or the other but not both at the same time. :smallsigh: )

It's theologically important. If the gods were created by HUMANS, well, Engwithans, rather than themselves or not always existent, then it's kind of shocking. Imagine one day if an ancient Greek discovered that Zeus was just an extremely powerful guy created by a lot of witches and warlocks.

[Narkis]

It's theologically important. If the gods were created by HUMANS, well, Engwithans, rather than themselves or not always existent, then it's kind of shocking. Imagine one day if an ancient Greek discovered that Zeus was just an extremely powerful guy created by a lot of witches and warlocks.

It... wouldn't be that big of a deal? I mean, yeah, shocking to the faithful (IF they believe it), but the gods in Pillars are demonstrably affecting the world. Just because they didn't always exist, it doesn't mean they don't exist and aren't worth revering now. It's a question of interest to philosophers and scientists, but not to farmer #357 who can have his local priest mend his bones instantly, or perform any number of other miraculous things. Hell, even your character has only just met the gods, gotten divine aid and promised the souls to one of them. And if you don't deliver on that promise, they are very upset and they show it.

For example, no one in Faerun cares that Kelemvor used to be a mortal or Bane used to be mortals. They are gods now, and that's all that matters. It was very disappointing how the game handled that revelation, the encounter with Thaos, and pretty much the entire endgame. They "did not nail the landing" is a very charitable interpretation.

[Grif]

It... wouldn't be that big of a deal? I mean, yeah, shocking to the faithful (IF they believe it), but the gods in Pillars are demonstrably affecting the world. Just because they didn't always exist, it doesn't mean they don't exist and aren't worth revering now. It's a question of interest to philosophers and scientists, but not to farmer #357 who can have his local priest mend his bones instantly, or perform any number of other miraculous things. Hell, even your character has only just met the gods, gotten divine aid and promised the souls to one of them. And if you don't deliver on that promise, they are very upset and they show it.

For example, no one in Faerun cares that Kelemvor used to be a mortal or Bane used to be mortals. They are gods now, and that's all that matters. It was very disappointing how the game handled that revelation, the encounter with Thaos, and pretty much the entire endgame. They "did not nail the landing" is a very charitable interpretation.

It's a pity the game started off so strongly. The entire third act just fell flat for me, myself.

[Vaz]

This is similar to the Trudi Canavan stories.

[Domochevsky]

This is similar to the Trudi Canavan stories.

...do you wanna elaborate on that? (I don't know who that is.) :smallconfused:

[GloatingSwine]

It's theologically important. If the gods were created by HUMANS, well, Engwithans, rather than themselves or not always existent, then it's kind of shocking. Imagine one day if an ancient Greek discovered that Zeus was just an extremely powerful guy created by a lot of witches and warlocks.

Not the operative question, the operative question is just how accurate is he with those thunderbolts?

Otherwise one may be quick to find out what he thinks about people who depend too much on technicalities...

[houlio]

I actually enjoyed the ending, but I'm not terribly picky. The gods aren't actually gods thing would have worked a lot better if there was a more explicit connection between their constant meddling with the world-eg Skaen's secret blood cult murders or Rymrgand's constant entropy- and the fact that some random shmuck just like me decided that these things should be watching over me. Instead, the third act just involves a lot of random quests with "go here, do this" and no unifying theme underneath them. The quests that you accomplish are all there, but they aren't tied neatly together very well.

In comparison, the second act was essentially the same, except you also knew why you were doing each separate quest. The hearing on animancy felt way cooler because it felt like the culmination of everything I had just been doing.

[Vaz]

...do you wanna elaborate on that? (I don't know who that is.) :smallconfused:

Sorry. Didn't want to especially spoil her novels. I suggest you read them, in particular the Age of the Five trilogy.


A trilogy of fantasy novels recounting the story of Auraya, a young priestess who rises to the highest rank in her world’s religious hierarchy, only to find that there may be more to the gods she worships than she was led to believe.

That's the brief synopsis from the site, and are brilliant holiday/morning reading. They aren't taxing, but have a well thought out magic "system" that suspends disbelief without being "it's magic, it doesn't need explaining", and have a complexity without needing to carry around an Edding's/Tolkien/Martin/Jordan level subtext all in your head. If you enjoyed Hobbit/LotR Tolkien, Peter V Brett, or JK Rowling, I can't see why you wouldn't enjoy these. Not saying that you'd necessarily not enjoy it if you like the former list of authors either, but rather that if you require it to that extent, then it's not so much for you.

That said, very worthwhile, the first one being a holiday bucket bin £1 pick up from a local charity shops, the next two being purchases from the airport on the following years holiday, and both having been read on that 2 week vacation. I approve of them.

[Morty]

I liked the twist about "gods" being mortal creations, myself. It was left up to the player to decide if they deserve worship. And really - would they deserve worship more if they weren't made by mortals? They don't exactly do much to earn our respect.