5e - Suggestions to make player happier

[Ultra4Life]

I'm running a game with some friends at the local game store. Well will be, the first meet up was to put characters together. The semi-issue was that someone was completely new to DnD in general and they decided "I want to be a wizard!". Now that in and of itself isn't an issue. They're new, and we felt he should get priority on class choice. The other players were a rogue, and a ranger focused on archery. This led to the final player and the issue. He felt we should have some sort of caster who can cast healing spells. Not necessarily just cure wounds, but restoration and the like. Plus he felt he should be able to serve as semi-permanent frontline combatant. So he settled on cleric.

The issue is he isn't sure he'll enjoy it. See he's normally our wizard. He looooves playing wizards. It's not a power thing, he's just the type who likes to spend his time reading through the spell list, trying to decide what spell to work on next, etc etc. Kinda like how you'd expect a wizard to act in character Also likes the spell list and from a roleplaying aspect loves the idea of a character who always has an excuse to adventure (his being hunting for more arcane lore to add to his collection). And almost none of that is involved in being a cleric.

At first he thought to be an arcana domain cleric to fit with that roleplay aspect he likes so much, and take Green Flame Blade and possibly Sword Burst to bring his melee abilities up to par. Except there's little point to searching out magic aside from adding it to a library. For him the part of an adventure he looks forward to the most is adding a new spell to his spell book. And with a cleric that's gone.

So I'm trying to figure out a solution that settles this issue without causing in game problems. My first thought was to give him the Ritual Caster feat for free. Except there's so few spells on that list that I don't think it'd change the feel of being a cleric all that much. Then I though to just change clerics to use a spell book. Make it so nothing else changes, but they prepare from a book and can add cleric spells to it. Except the cleric list is fairly narrow. Far as I can tell forcing a spell book on a cleric is nothing but a nerf. So my second thought is to expand the cleric's spell list a bit, possibly add in other divine spells. What are your thoughts on this? Is this a straight up bad solution? If not, any suggestions as to what spells I should or should not add?

[JoeJ]

I'd suggest that he forget cleric and play a valor bard. If he really wants a book, variant human lets him start with a feat; he can choose Ritual Caster. Alternatively, he could play a variant human wizard with the Magic Initiate feat to grab either Healing Word or Good Berry, but they he won't get the Restoration spells.

But having a party healer is not necessarily required in 5e. Any character can take a short rest to recover some of their hit points, and a healer's kit can be used to stabilize anybody that drop. Healing potions are a little pricey, at 50gp each, but they're another option.

[Ultra4Life]

Well I did say that a big part of the issue he's having is he likes the idea of finding new spells to add to a spell book and Valor bards can't really do that. I've already considered Ritual Caster, we talked about it and it just doesn't seem like what he's looking for. And on the healing front he's less concerned about cure spells and more with stuff like restoration, revivify, remove curse, etc. Part of this is the placebo effect that he wants to give the players. Players tend to be a lot more willing to engage in heroics if they know there's someone who can put them back together again if things go wrong (and again, I'm not talking exclusively about hit points here). Admittedly bard gets those spells for the most part, but given the few spells known picking them kinda locks the character into being a dedicated healer (which he does not want). At least a cleric can swap their spells around/use domains. Plus Bard is his least liked class (long list of points for disliking them, but there's a reason he went to a divine caster rather than the arcane bard).

A better way to put this is I'm not trying to find ways to say "no, you can do this instead" to him. I'd rather do a little houseruling to make sure he's happy. Or if someone knows of a non-overpowered homebrew archetype or class that helps cover this then that'd work too.

[Thrudd]

Just let him play a wizard. Why shouldn't he? So there's no cleric, so what. The game's rules for short rests and healing are really lenient already. It will just change their strategy about how to do some things, maybe be more careful.

[Inevitability]

Let him play a wizard and give them enough healing items and opportunities for short rests to compensate for not having a cleric. Really, it is mathematically optimal to delay in-combat healing until someone reaches 0 HP, so as long as they have a few healing potions to get people back up they'll be fine.

[dps]

Just let him play a wizard. Why shouldn't he? So there's no cleric, so what. The game's rules for short rests and healing are really lenient already. It will just change their strategy about how to do some things, maybe be more careful.

Yeah, and there's no inherent reason that there can't be 2 wizards in the party. I would suggest that it would probably be better if they're not the same type of wizard--maybe have one of them focused on blasting (probably the newbie) and the other on other types of magic. But really, even if they're both blasters, I don't think it would be a real problem.

[weaseldust]

How about he plays as a rock gnome and you allow him to discover how to build different tools/mechanisms with his tinkering ability? Perhaps by finding examples, or by reading ancient books.

Or he could play as a Druid instead of a Cleric and have to seek out new beasts to be able to turn into them. (You could even let him turn into some creatures other than beasts. E.g. a manticore would be fine. Anything without spells or really unusual abilities, I suppose.)

[Ultra4Life]

The problem there is we have a completely new player playing a wizard and a player who specializes in playing wizards. The concern is the player who's experienced overshadowing the new player and leaving them turned off to tabletop roleplaying games. This is also why I considered if I gave the cleric a spell book adding in a few other divine spells rather than giving him wizard/sorcerer spells. He still gets to gather spells for his spell book, but they aren't arcane spells leaving that area the sole dominion of the wizard player. The other concern is every time I've run a game with these people when there's no one in the group who can take care of status effects beyond HP damage (in addition to no one casting healing spells) the response to "you have to go into this dungeon to slay the dragon" becomes "let's go do something else that sounds dangerous". And it's not just simple slay something adventures. Anything that involves the risk of combat or danger in general causes them to run in the opposite direction if they don't have a cleric or other character capable of casting the various spells associated with them.

Now you may be thinking "well if that's the type of game they want..." Thing is it definitively isn't the game they want. If I try to adapt it to not involve combat they complain about there being no danger, or how the various abilities their characters have are pointless as a result ("I'm a fighter and there's no fighting, this is stupid"). On the other hand if I involve those situations they complain about being forced into "dangerous fights" since there's no one who can heal. There should be an addendum that when designing encounters I try as hard as I can to adhere to the guidelines laid out in the Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide. I don't randomly throw things several challenge levels above them at them and expect them to win. I also try to leave out monsters with abilities they have no way of recovering from (such as a basilisk if they don't have access to greater restoration). Trying to explain this to them does nothing to sate the concerns. So if I adapt it to their in game cowardice, I get complaints. If I keep the encounters as is when there's no cleric type character, I get complaints. Which is why that player offered to play a cleric. The complaints vaporize as soon as they get one. Which then links back to that player not being entirely sure he'll enjoy being a cleric.

And as for the "just change groups" suggestion these threads seem to always get, I live in a small town and these are pretty literally the only people who play these games within several miles. Everyone else who frequents that store pretty much exclusively play Magic the Gathering or Yu-Gi-Oh. Which in turn brings us back to why we absolutely do not want to turn the new player off from these games. He's new blood we haven't had in a long, LONG time. Conversely online games have certain common aspects to them that I just don't like (not going into that).

This is why I'm looking for suggestions to houserules/possible homebrew character options to fix this. If there's a way to give the wizard fan a way to play a cleric and get what he likes about being a wizard while playing a cleric then PERFECT. Problems solved. New player gets to enjoy being the only wizard and there's no risk of being overshadowed in wizardry, the paranoid ones get their cleric who can patch them up (which as pointed is a placebo effect acknowledged by the wizard player), and the wizard player still gets to have the aspect of the game they enjoy. And I get the joy of (beyond this initial headache) not needing to worry about players complaining about everything I do. Everyone wins, which is why I want a way to achieve this.

Also have been poring over the 5e Homebrew Compendium thread for ideas, but haven't found anything thus far.

Now as for Ritual Casting, big block that I kinda rushed to write.


First let's cover every spell available through ritual casting as per the three big classes (cleric druid wizard)

Cleric
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Purify Food and Drink
Augury
Gentle Repose
Silence
Feign Death
Meld into Stone
Water Walk
Divination
Commune
Forbiddance

Wizard
Comprehend Languages
Contact other Plane
Detect Magic
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Feign Death
Find Familiar
Gentle Repose
Identify
Illusory Script
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Magic Mouth
Phantom Steed
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Tenser's Floating Disc
Unseen Servant
Water Breathing

Druid
Animal Messenger
Beast Sense
Commune with Nature
Detect Poison and Disease
Purify Food and Drink
Feign Death
Meld into Stone
Speak with Animals
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Locate Animal or Plant

Now of these spells, let's remove any spell the cleric can already cast from the Wizard and Druid lists.

Wizard
Comprehend Languages
Contact other Plane
Dramij's Instant Summons
Find Familiar
Identify
Illusory Script
Leomunds Tiny Hut
Magic Mouth
Phantom Steed
Rary's Telepathic bond
Unseen Servant
Tenser's Floating Disc

Druid
Animal Messenger
Beast Sense
Commune With Nature
Speak with Animals
Water Breathing


So those are what he gets out of taking the Ritual Caster feat, 12 for wizard 5 for druid. So now the issue is he only has at most 12 spells to seek out. A good few of those he can probably copy out of the wizard's book when he gets them. Either way he only needs to find 12 spells maximum as opposed to always trying to find every wizard spell out there.



This in turn leads to my idea of houseruling the cleric to use a spell book for cleric spells. Except the cleric spell list is intentionally sparse since they have access to their entire list, so this would be nothing but a nerf to his cleric. I am a firm believer that you should not have to sacrifice crunch for fluff or vice versa so this does not agree with me. Which is then why I thought to extend the cleric spell list just a bit with other divine spells to compensate for this fact. Not as many spells as a wizard gets, but more than the standard cleric (with wizard style 6 spells at level 1, two additional per level deal). Except I'm not entirely certain on how to proceed with this (why I'm asking for opinions, suggestions, etc). What spells would be good to add, which would be bad, which would steal from other classes' thunder, etc. Or possibly if there's some reasonably balanced homebrew archetype or class that does this that I haven't come across yet.

Current idea that I'm juggling is the idea that this cleric would lose his domain spells (as in they wouldn't be automatically prepared at all times), but in return would add all domain spells to his spell list. Then he'd have a spell book and need to learn spells as a wizard does (as in wouldn't automatically be capable of casting every spell on the cleric spell list, he'd need to find them in writing). Yes, a lot of spells but a decent chunk of those are already cleric spells so no added magical prowess there, and all of them are 5th level and below. The campaign world would be slightly altered to compensate for this (cleric spells in scroll/prayer books would be a bit more common). Does this sound reasonable, or do you have other suggestions?

[JoeJ]

Do you have anything against multiclassing? A cleric/wizard can have the healing, can seek out wizard spells for his book, and won't outshadow the newbie at wizard stuff because he'll be casting lower level spells.

[Ultra4Life]

...sonuva ok I completely forgot about that option in this edition. We'll go over that. Until I get his opinion on that I'd still like thoughts/opinions in case he's against it.

[Sol]

How much would it break the game to allow a super simple homebrew Divine Wizard? All wizard class features, but cleric spell list and divine keyword in place of arcane anywhere that's relevant.

[Telok]

Multiclass.
Life cleric 1 / wizard++

Heavy and medium armor, shields, a bonus on healing spells (your spell slots are class agnostic, you can cast Cure Wounds out of that 6th level slot). The only thing you may need are good stats (Str 15, Con, Wis 13, Int for heavy armor), Resilient(Con) and Warcaster feats, and maybe DM fiat someone of the restore/rez spells into rituals if they aren't already.

Edit: And he doesn't step on the other wozard's toes since he gets spells a level later and wants to save some for healing.

[Pex]

I agree valor lore bard is the better alternative. Even though he can't know all the spells you can hype up the discovering of the spells he does know. Flavor it as discovering songs. Wizards use a formula to cast spells. His character creates notes to sing to produce effects. His musical instrument is the focus for not needing material components. Handwave playing it as the somatic component. If he wants to use a wind instrument like a flute, handwave the sound made is the vocal component and his swaying of movement as he plays or even a little dance is the somatic component. Let him say actual insults for Vicious Mockery. That'll be fun.

For the multiclassing option emphasize that even though he's not getting the higher level spells until later his spell progression continues normally. Spells improve in effectiveness using the higher level spell slots he is getting. His cleric side gives him the healing and remove affliction spells he wants and can focus most of his power on the wizard spells he's getting. He can be a Life Cleric to boost healing, be proficient in heavy armor, and feel confident wearing platemail for high AC to cast short range cone Burning Hands in a 3rd level spell slot.

[Ultra4Life]

1st Point: Changing Wizard to cast Divine Spells

Issue there is that if you take only the spells printed in the cleric spell list you're left with not a lot of spells. Which is fine for clerics as written. They can pick any spell from that list whenever they prepare their spells so having a larger list would be problematic. Similarly Bards and Sorcerers don't have a giant list due to their limited spells known. They leave out a lot of the more situational spells since odds are they're not going to waste a precious spell known on a spell that "might be nice to have if that odd situation ever comes up".

Wizards on the other hand are the odd balls here. They get six spells in their book at level one and an additional two per level for every level beyond that. So that's 44 spells known. Then they can add spells to their spell books on top of those. Despite this they can only prepare spells based on their Wizard level and Intelligence for a total of 25 at level 20, 27 if you count their Signature Spells (which we will).

Now a Cleric at level 20 will have 35 spells prepared at any given time thanks to following that same rule and having domain spells on top of it. A Valor Bard will only have 22 spells. They aren't a fair comparison since they're Bards who opted to sacrifice additional magical abilities for martial prowess. A Lore Bard on the other hand focuses on magic and skills and will have 24 which is just three shy of what a Wizard would get. Considering that a Lore Bard isn't supposed to be a master of the arcane (they're just a jack of all trades who focused more on magic than other jack of all trades) that isn't bad. A Moon Druid also gets 25 spells, but they're Druids who care more about ripping your throat out than casting spells (in fact odds are they'll use more spells sustaining their wild shapes than actually casting). Land Druids on the other hand get 33 spells prepared due to their circle spells. I'm not going to go into Sorcerers since that's a whole other bag of worms.

Going back to Wizards they have 27 spells prepared at level 20, and all their class can do is cast spells. They're squishier than all three of the other classes, have almost no combat capability beyond throwing cantrips or spells around, and are lacking in out of combat utility beyond their spells. Granted Clerics aren't known for their utility either, but they have armor, additional hit points, and slightly better combat capabilities to make up for it. Meanwhile Druids and Bards have Wild Shape and Skill related stuff to make up for it respectively. All a Wizard is good for is casting Arcane spells.

Now this isn't me saying Wizards are weak. They're far from it. That's because they have something to compensate for this. They have a MUCH larger spell list which covers a lot more situations than the other spell lists do. Granted they lack heals, but it's not especially hard for a clever wizard to find ways around this (such as at higher levels planeshifting to the plane of positive energy just long enough to recover from near lethal injuries and then returning just off the top of my head, results may vary based off of your campaign setting or how long the wizard stays there). And on top of that they can (in theory) have all of those spells in their book at any given time. They can have the situational spells since they can prepare them as needed.

Going back to "Wizard with Cleric spells" as a solution, the problem there is you have that Wizard chassis that's designed on the idea of "This class can only cast arcane spells, but that spell list is AWESOME so that doesn't really matter". If you take the Cleric spell list as written (that is only the Cleric spells, no domains or anything additional) you're taking a spell list that was designed under different assumptions, namely "this character always has access to every spell on this list they're capable of casting, are moderately sturdy, and moderately capable in combat". Putting that spell list on the wizard chassis isn't a good solution since now that cleric spell list is missing the things that make it work.

A very basic example of this is that the Cleric doesn't have Mage Armor or anything similar. They also don't have Shield as an "Oh crap!" button for emergencies. For clerics this doesn't matter. A baseline cleric has medium armor proficiency and shields. Those more than make up for Mage Armor. With Scale, a 12 in Dexterity, and a shield (all easily obtainable by level 1, the items you can just start with) you have a 17 for your armor class. If your domain gives you heavy armor, you can have an 18 at level one very easily with chainmail. Comparatively a wizard with 16 dex (also easily achievable at level 1) has a 16 AC with mage armor and can bump it up to 21 with shield if they really need it. Now when the wizard's shield is cast, their AC is higher by a good margin, but the cleric was using no spells whereas the wizard was using two. If we're at level one, that's a pretty big investment. It's all of their spells in fact. If the cleric uses a spell on shield of faith their AC jumps to 19/20. For one spell they have nearly the AC of the wizard at two. Not bad considering they have more HP on average.

Now when you place those same Cleric spells on the Wizard chassis there's a problem. The Cleric loses all of their armor and shield proficiency and they have less hit points. They also cannot cast Mage Armor or shield and instead are left with shield of faith exclusively. The wizard with cleric spells is actually squishier than the straight wizard. In addition they gain none of the massive utility or battlefield altering power of the wizard. In short all you get is a cleric that's weaker than a regular cleric. That's what I don't want to have happen.

2nd Point: Multiclassing
Good point as said before, will bring up the idea to him when I have the opportunity. Before that I'd like to explore other options in case he's against it since this is an extremely simple solution. Basically I'd like to have a back up plan or two in case it doesn't do it for him.

3rd Point: Bard in General
First and foremost, guy just doesn't like bard. This is a losing battle just by suggesting it. I've tried in the past to get him to like it, but it's like trying to convince someone who hates the color blue that blue is an awesome color. Just not happening. Second the reason he likes the wizard's method of spellcasting is that he likes the idea of going into each adventure thinking "I may find a new spell!". Actually asked him why he likes this when we were trying to solve the issue, his general reasoning is that even if he gains nothing else, that one spell makes it all worthwhile. It doesn't even need to be one he prepares or casts often, just the idea that his character grew in power (laterally if not linearly) makes him happy. If there's downtime, he's always got something to spend time on. If they're traveling, he knows how he's spending his time on the ship. When they're negotiating rewards for a quest or adventure, or just favors in general he knows immediately what to request (and what is reasonable to suggest, if he's a wizard who can cast level 3 spells, he knows not to request a scroll containing dimension door). If we need a plot hook to get the party together, we always have his ready to go (rumors of arcane lore and the like). With a Bard and other characters who cast spells (aside from wizard) the only way his character can grow and gain magical abilities is to gain levels. He doesn't like that since he admits it causes a mentality of only caring about the experience points in the adventure since that's the only way he gains new spells. Side note, this guy's pretty definitely not a power gamer despite how that may make him sound. I've never once seen him using high grade power builds, or the super optimal spells (or combinations there of). This is just an aspect of the game he enjoys, in fact it's the primary aspect he enjoys.

And circling back, guy doesn't like the bard. At all. I tried putting it gently the level of disdain he has for that class. Just about everything about that class on a conceptual level causes a borderline allergic reaction in the guy. He's fine with others playing it (it's not that the thinks it's weak or anything), he just completely and utterly hates everything about playing a bard, roleplaying a bard, just every aspect of the bard.

This also isn't a guy who's never tried other classes, the kind of guy who exclusively plays one class and never tries anything outside his comfort zone. No, throughout various adventures and one shots he's tried his hand at just about every other class in the game in this edition and previous ones. He's tried being a bard and other classes at that. He just hates that class no matter how you refluff it, or try to re-imagine it. And this is coming from someone who rates the bard as one of his favorite classes (I was practically giddy when the Unearthed Arcana previews included a Blade archetype for them) and has tried to get him to see it differently in the past. Also part of the reason he offered to be a cleric (he likes clerics less than wizards, but more than druids).

[SethoMarkus]

Why not allow him to play a wizard? The player being more experienced isn't a bad thing; have his character mentor the other players character. Have them be brothers, one older, one younger. Or senior student/junior student?

To cover the "oh no, we're scaredy cats" syndrome, introduce a friendly dmpc cleric who offers healing for free or greatly reduced prices than usual. Maybe she/he follows them into dungeons as well. Make the character mute or something if you absolutely want them to have minimal impact on gameplay. I'm not too familiar with 5th ed but I'm sure there are some magic items that might be helpful as well.

Largely, if he really is worried about swhether he will enjoy cleric or not, why make him feel forced into that role? I know that he volunteered to take up the mantle of healer, but there's no reason for the player to he a martyr.

[Fable Wright]

See, what I'd do is take all of the spells from SCAG and Elemental Evils, and say that they're not available for character selection on level-up (for NPCs or players). They can only be learned, even for Clerics, by finding a tome that describes their use.

Alternatively, the Cleric may know the process by which he can change his domain; if he finds a Divine spell, like a Ranger, Druid, or Paladin spell in written form, with some time and effort, he can trade a spell on the Cleric list out with the new spell, making a mechanic like the 3.5e Archivist. You have control over what spells he'll gain access to, so it shouldn't be too overpowered. Just... make sure to try and avoid the Concentration spells. Or impose a restriction that the Cleric can't swap out for Conjuration spells at all. Just... Entangle, Heat Metal, Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, and Swift Quiver can all be doozies that dramatically shake up class balance. Keep that in mind.

[Ultra4Life]

There seems to be a little misunderstanding here. This was never me as the DM telling him, or suggesting he be something other than wizard. I am not barring the class from him arbitrarily. This is him, as a player without any input from me having decided he did not want to be a wizard for reasons listed. That I agreed with the idea after he brought it up is one thing, but I was never telling him he cannot be a wizard. He decided completely of his own volition not to be one. All of this is coming as result of him opting to not be one. In fact one of the very first things I suggested to him was "why not just be a wizard" and he went into a long tirade about not wanting overlap in the party, risk of overshadowing the new player, etc. Plus from an in character stand point our adventures tend to follow the typical DnD formula of "person has quest to do, he wants a decent enough team to do it, is only willing to split the treasure X ways". From an IC stand point one issue there tends to be is


"Ok and what do you do." "Well I'm a master of arcane magic!" "...isn't that guy a master of arcane magic?" "Well yes but-" "What exactly can you do that he can't?" "Well I know these spells..." "Hey magic guy number one, can you cast those?" "Most of them yeah, just not identify. Then again I actually paid attention in school so I don't even need that spell." "Ok master of the arcane number two, you're out." "Can't you just hire us both?" "And split the treasure by an additional share? No thanks." "But you still have an additional hiring slot, you're looking for X number of people to help according to the brochure!" "And I'm looking for someone to do *non arcane magic related task*. Can you do that?" "Well I know a few spells I could probably-" "Can you do it whenever or wherever you need to?" "If I have the spells." "What if you don't have the spells?" "..." "Then get out."


As for why we opt for that style of game, it's mainly because we tend to switch DMs after every adventure or so and our character gets a short vacation. The episodic style of play is mainly so that we don't try the inevitable disaster of having a big overarching plot being written one section at a time by four people with distinctly different ideas of how it's supposed to go. "Now the evil sorcerer king is slain, and all is good." "And now he's come back as a vampire!" "And now he's been destroyed again, and this time his soul has been completely and utterly destroyed." "And now he's become a demi-god!" "Ok seriously this guy was supposed to just 'be dead' like three adventures ago can he just stay dead and stop getting power ups?" "Well clearly he's the big bad guy..." "No he was a starter villain, my notes had the actual villain." "Well how were we supposed to know that!?" And so on and so forth. Plus work and social obligations can get in the way of the game, so sometimes we need to take a couple weeks off and we forget bits of what happened. Having a fairly simplistic campaign makes these issues matter less.

Now that that's out of the way I've considered putting npcs in the party before. My players are all vehemently opposed to the idea. They feel is steals the spotlight from them, that it arbitrarily makes things easier, that it negates any feeling of danger, or that the npc is getting special treatment (usually if they happen to roll a 20 on anything). Mind you this is true even if the npc is literally just a walking box of bandaids. Like, seriously once it was just a construct that was a box with legs that had cleric abilities to represent it dispensing magical healing. In this scenario they got angry for the idea of it being too comical and out of place for a game to be taken seriously at all.

On the other hand, magical healing items tends to elicit negative reactions from them since they feel they're being sold short in regard to their reward for the quest. "What, a bunch of potions? I wanted a new sword, or armor." Plus in this edition in the DMG the only healing items are Potions of Healing, Potions of Vitality (which are Very Rare and just cure poisons and disease in addition to hit points), Rod of Resurrection (Legendary), Spell Scrolls (which in 5e can only be used by members of a class who can actually cast those spells, so if they can use it they belong to a class that can cast that spell kinda negating the reason for using one in this case - that is allowing someone who can't cast these spells to cast them, not that they aren't useful in general), and a Staff of Healing (can only be used by a cleric, druid, or bard so see Spell Scrolls).

Now this is all probably making them sound whiny or what not, and I'm not saying this group doesn't have issues, but getting another one isn't really an option. Besides this all leads back into "all of these problems will be solved if the player playing a cleric can replicate the experience of being a wizard with divine spells" without being hobbled since as previously mentioned I just don't believe in sacrificing fluff for crunch or vice versa.

And usually none of these comes up since normally the Ranger player plays a cleric of nature. And since we cycle DMs (which is why we opt for an episodic playstyle of quests and adventures, that way we don't have to worry about screwing up each others' overarching plots) whenever I'm a player I play bard or cleric if he's the DM or is unwilling to play one. So under normal circumstances this is a complete non-issue. Reason for them being a ranger this time is "but I'm alllllways a cleric". Which is a legitimate enough reason, wanting a change of pace. Meanwhile the rogue player refuses to play any casters whatsoever. That leaves the person who normally plays a wizard.



Alternatively, the Cleric may know the process by which he can change his domain; if he finds a Divine spell, like a Ranger, Druid, or Paladin spell in written form, with some time and effort, he can trade a spell on the Cleric list out with the new spell, making a mechanic like the 3.5e Archivist. You have control over what spells he'll gain access to, so it shouldn't be too overpowered. Just... make sure to try and avoid the Concentration spells. Or impose a restriction that the Cleric can't swap out for Conjuration spells at all. Just... Entangle, Heat Metal, Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, and Swift Quiver can all be doozies that dramatically shake up class balance. Keep that in mind.

I actually rather like that solution.

[goto124]

Like, seriously once it was just a construct that was a box with legs that had cleric abilities to represent it dispensing magical healing. In this scenario they got angry for the idea of it being too comical and out of place for a game to be taken seriously at all.

That is a literal healbot. I am so proud of you.

[MrStabby]

How about the sorcerer chassis with cleric spells and with the wizard way of learning spells and Inst casting?

The sorcerer chassis has a big boost to casting with metamagic, the cleric spell list is of comparable size to the sorc and it lets the PC search out new spells. New spells are researched by discovering new rituals, discovering new shines and learning about new gods. In addition the player gets to play in int based character which sounds like it suits his style.

[SethoMarkus]

I'm sorry if I offended, I never meant to come across as blaming you for forcing him into the role of healer. Quite the contrary, I was trying to say that he feels that he is forced into that role by himself. I bring this up because I have been in that situation myself. Before I knew better, I used to think that every party needed a cleric/equivalent to keep the party running smoothly. I often felt obligated to fill this role myself because no one else naturally inclined themselves to the role. So again, I apologise for my lack of clarity possibly offending you.

That is unfortunate that your players react poorly to NPC characters like that, even ones relegated strictly to the side lines. That is also unfortunate about the rarity of health items in 5th ed. I was not aware.

As for trying to make cleric feel more like wizard, I fear that may be an uphill struggle. From my understanding, 5th ed tried to make each class feel distinct, so there probably isn't an easy cross-over. What if you house ruled that a particular sect of cleric was able to gain arcane spells to their list, much like a Magic devotion? Or homebrew divine equivalents of arcane spells, set them one or two levels behind the arcane version, call them "The Lost Gospels" or something, and include them in forgotten prayer books throughout the world. Reciting the prayers included in the books add that spell to your list permanantly, acting like the spells on the clerics native spell list.

[Segev]

This will be brief, and I will try to elaborate later. How about a domain, call it Forbidden Knowledge. It does not give domain spells, but instead gives a spellbook onto which they may add any ritual, and need not have a spell prepared to cast it as a ritual if it is in their spellbook.

At level 2, they gain the ability to add Warlock spells to their tome. They may prepare them as cleric spells, but must channel divinity to cast them as cleric spells (expending spell slots as normal).

When other clerics gain a second channel divinity ability, Forbidden Knowledge clerics gain access to the wizard spell list in the same manner in which they have access to warlock spells.

[Segev]

Alright, now that I have my book in front of me, let's try building this as a proper domain.

Eldritch Domain
The eldritch domain focuses on forbidden secrets and hidden lore, whether due to blasphemous doctrines of a wicked church, a heretical sect with dark knowledge, or an inquisitor's focus on knowing the enemy. Gods which grant this domain are often of the darker sort, or are themselves the kinds of beings with which warlock pacts can be made, but their foes, too, sometimes grant special dispensation to their most faithful and least likely to be corrupted in order to understand the perverse forces which might enslave the unwary.

Eldritch Domain Spells
Each time you gain access to a new Cleric level, choose one Warlock spell of that level to add to your cleric spell list.

Know the Enemy
Your study of the ways of darkness has given you an understanding of its tricks and how to avoid them. You have advantage on all Intelligence saving throws.

Book of Secrets
When you choose this domain at 1st level, you begin accumulating secret practices in a personal tome. You gain the Ritual Caster feat.

Channel Divinity: Forbidden Spells
At 2nd level, you may begin to record spells from the class list for which you are a Ritualist into your Book of Secrets in the same way a wizard records spells in his spellbook. You may prepare these spells as cleric spells, but to cast any spells prepared this way requires a use of your Channel Divinity power (as well as the requisite spell slot).

Great Ritualist
At 6th level, your ritualist talents grow. Choose a class other than the one for which you have the Ritualist feat. You now have that feat for that class, as well, and may channel divinity to use your Forbidden Spells with such spells as you record in your book of secrets from that class, as well.

Dark Invocation
At 8th level, you may learn an Invocation as if you were a Warlock. Your Cleric and Warlock levels stack for purposes of learning Invocations.

Ritual Shortcuts
Substituting power and natural talent for care, your deep understanding of the eldritch arts allows you to cast a spell as a ritual much faster than normal. Starting at 17th level, you only add one minute (rather than 10) to the casting time of a spell you cast as a ritual.

[Kane0]

- Cleric with arcana domain
- Wizard with 'brewed subclass (essentially a wizard counterpart to the arcana cleric). Call it Archivist or something.
- Multiclass Wizard/Cleric, traditional Mystic Theurge.
- Favored soul sorcerer with Life domain.
- Tome Warlock with 'brewed patron (expanded spell list featuring clerical heals, modifying Undying light would be a good starting point).
- Bard stealing cleric heal spells with magical secrets

Any of the above with ritual caster feat.

You could pick pretty much any full casting class aside from druid and get a combination of wizardly bookish casting and clerical healing spells. Its just a matter of taste since they're all perfectly functional.

[Ultra4Life]

We've managed to resolve to situation. Thanks to all who assisted.

[KorvinStarmast]

We've managed to resolve to situation. Thanks to all who assisted. Was it resolved by the forever wizard deciding to stretch himself a bit and play something else? I got into a rut some years ago and seemed to play thieves nearly all the time. Best thing I did was to start playing other classes. None of this one trick pony for me. (As a player)

[Segev]

Was it resolved by the forever wizard deciding to stretch himself a bit and play something else? I got into a rut some years ago and seemed to play thieves nearly all the time. Best thing I did was to start playing other classes. None of this one trick pony for me. (As a player)

I have often found that when I try to "stretch myself," I get frustrated by the fact that whatever I'm playing can't do what I WANT to be doing. So while I won't fault anybody for stretching themselves, I will say it doesn't always work out as well as it has for Korvin, here.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have often found that when I try to "stretch myself," I get frustrated by the fact that whatever I'm playing can't do what I WANT to be doing. So while I won't fault anybody for stretching themselves, I will say it doesn't always work out as well as it has for Korvin, here. That's a very fair point. Some folks get a comfort zone, or a feel, and fall in love with it. Doing so is not BadWrongFun.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Recreate the Archivist-- take the Wizard, change his spell list to include both Cleric and Druid spells, let him cast off Wisdom, and give him a Divine Domain instead of an Arcane Tradition. (And Channel Divinity in place of Arcane Recovery, I suppose-- though maybe not Destroy Undead). That ought to do it. You're basically taking a chassis downgrade in exchange for broader spell access.

[Fable Wright]

We've managed to resolve to situation. Thanks to all who assisted.

How did you resolve it? I'm curious, though I don't mean to pry.

[Moctzal]

Sounds to me like this player would like playing a Druid. Druids get healing magic (HP and status), Moon Druids can wild shape for when you need frontline bodies, and they can summon bodies for the frontline, and when they want to they can spell cast fairly well.

[SethoMarkus]

Glad to hear that it was resolved :)

[Theodoxus]

Alright, now that I have my book in front of me, let's try building this as a proper domain.

Eldritch Domain
The eldritch domain focuses on forbidden secrets and hidden lore, whether due to blasphemous doctrines of a wicked church, a heretical sect with dark knowledge, or an inquisitor's focus on knowing the enemy. Gods which grant this domain are often of the darker sort, or are themselves the kinds of beings with which warlock pacts can be made, but their foes, too, sometimes grant special dispensation to their most faithful and least likely to be corrupted in order to understand the perverse forces which might enslave the unwary.

Eldritch Domain Spells
Each time you gain access to a new Cleric level, choose one Warlock spell of that level to add to your cleric spell list.

Know the Enemy
Your study of the ways of darkness has given you an understanding of its tricks and how to avoid them. You have advantage on all Intelligence saving throws.

Book of Secrets
When you choose this domain at 1st level, you begin accumulating secret practices in a personal tome. You gain the Ritual Caster feat.

Channel Divinity: Forbidden Spells
At 2nd level, you may begin to record spells from the class list for which you are a Ritualist into your Book of Secrets in the same way a wizard records spells in his spellbook. You may prepare these spells as cleric spells, but to cast any spells prepared this way requires a use of your Channel Divinity power (as well as the requisite spell slot).

Great Ritualist
At 6th level, your ritualist talents grow. Choose a class other than the one for which you have the Ritualist feat. You now have that feat for that class, as well, and may channel divinity to use your Forbidden Spells with such spells as you record in your book of secrets from that class, as well.

Dark Invocation
At 8th level, you may learn an Invocation as if you were a Warlock. Your Cleric and Warlock levels stack for purposes of learning Invocations.

Ritual Shortcuts
Substituting power and natural talent for care, your deep understanding of the eldritch arts allows you to cast a spell as a ritual much faster than normal. Starting at 17th level, you only add one minute (rather than 10) to the casting time of a spell you cast as a ritual.

Stealing this. :)

[Southpaw]

Interested in hearing how this was solved.

The idea I was thinking about ( a bit late though ) was to Play a cleric with his normal spell list but using the Wizards spell book/prepared spells format that the player likes. To compensate for this lessening of spell diversity for the player, I would add a modified magic secrets ability from the lore bard. At the levels prescribed with a lore bard this Modified Cleric can add two spells from any spell list to his divine spell book. He just needs to have the scrolls ready to go. This would allow him to not only have to search for his desired divine spells, but will allow him to take special interest in spells scrolls of other classes that he may wish to hold onto while he tries to unlock their secrets.