Monks Stillness of the Mind usefulness?

[Calar_Gaia]

So in a group I'm DMing for, a Monk in the party recently got level 7 and gained the feature "Stillness of the Mind" It allows the Monk, with an action, end a charm or frighten effect. We had a split on what we believed the intent of it is.

The issue is this.. many charms, as far as I know, are not spells or abilities where the Monk would even know he is charmed. Examples being Charm Person, and Suggestion. Other charm spells incapacitate, which negate his ability to use an action. Examples being Hypnotic Pattern and several monster abilities.

Some of us, including me, believe that he can't still his mind if he doesn't even recognize that he is charmed. Similar to a person that is diseased but unaware of it. The others believe that the ability intends for it to be a subconscious effect. He isn't aware of being charmed, but his Monkly ki / heightened mind recognizes the charm.

So, is the ability meant to be more of a "get out of charm/frightened jail for an action" ability? Or is it meant to affect only certain charms (though most frightens)?

[RickAllison]

I would say that the monk, who has spent years perfecting body and mind, internally knows that something is affecting them. They might now know how, or why, but they know something is not quite right. Others may differ, however.

[Drackolus]

I would say that the monk, who has spent years perfecting body and mind, internally knows that something is affecting them. They might now know how, or why, but they know something is not quite right. Others may differ, however.

I completely agree with this. Also considering similar abilities are "you can't be charmed" it seems silly to assume it isn't 100% coverage. It would be frustraingly useless, since you're right in your assessment that most charms you don't know about. You'd basically be removing a class ability, and nobody would want the dm to handwave away your class skills. Besides, charms are rare enough that complete immunity is a pretty minor ability, and charm resistance is abundant.
If you don't have an action though, you can't very well spend it... Though personally, that sounds like an oversight. I'd just say you get an action to still your mind anyway (so the turn is still lost). I maintain that if a devotion paladin has an aura that includes an additional affect, requires no action, and is shared within 10 feet, giving the monk the ability to break those with an action on themselves only is already about 1/5th as good as a similar ability. If it doesn't affect all charms, it's basically just fluff at that point.

[pwykersotz]

I interpret it as a metagame option where the Monk's player can cause the Monk to snap out of the effect as long as the Monk has an action to spend. Otherwise, like you said, it's pretty useless.

[Addaran]

I interpret it as a metagame option where the Monk's player can cause the Monk to snap out of the effect as long as the Monk has an action to spend. Otherwise, like you said, it's pretty useless.

Something like that. The charm/fear still make the monk loses his turn so it's not totally wasted and there's an opportunity cost for the monk.

[Drackolus]

Wow - who knew posting in the midst of a panic attack makes it very hard to communicate coherently?

Uh, tldr from my previous textual tragedy: I think Stillness of Mind is already too weak of ability compared to other similar ones, particularly aura of devotion, which is also a 7th level ability. I'd be looking for ways to increase its usefulness, not lessen it.

[Calar_Gaia]

Makes sense to me. As a side note, the ability specifies "charmed or frightened". Does this mean the conditions of Charmed and Frightened? Or does it mean charms of all kinds, regardless of the charmed condition? In this case compare Suggestion and Geas. One specifies becoming charmed by them, the other doesn't.

[Talamare]

Plenty of people get straight immunity to Fear
Paladin even gives immunity to both Charm AND Fear for everyone near them...

Monk even needs to spend an entire action and it's their lv7 ability which is generally fairly useful ability for other classes.
I would say RP wise, Lv7 Monks are always able to instantly feel when their minds are being tampered with.
As well as they can remove Charm/Fear with an action.

I also recommend Paladin's aren't ever able to feel Fear effects (Charm too if they are Devotion), its just naturally repelled that they don't even notice it.

[Calar_Gaia]

I feel as if that's slightly skewed. While yes, Paladins get immunity to charm and fear, it's not a straight ability to ability comparison. Any paladin gets charm immunity at 7, but fear immunity is a 10th level Devotion paladin ability.

Comparing 7th and 10th abilities, monks get Evasion (half damage/no damage on Dex saves) at 7. They also get Stillness of the Mind at 7. At 10 They become immune to poison and disease. That's why im trying to avoid "Intent is based on other classes power", it just doesn't translate well.

[Drackolus]

Very good point. Evasion is an incredible ability. Still, the ability already has a big cost tied to it - losing an action basically means the effect still cost the monk a whole turn, and when many combats end in around 5 turns, that's still an impact. You could make a similar argument about the Bard's Countercharm, which also takes an action and only grants advantage, not immunity. But the rest of the Bard's kit makes up for it in spades.
I guess abilities that have high costs and are very situational just bug me. That's what spells are for. But almost every class has at least one ability that simply doesn't do much, if anything.

[MaxWilson]

I feel as if that's slightly skewed. While yes, Paladins get immunity to charm and fear, it's not a straight ability to ability comparison. Any paladin gets charm immunity at 7, but fear immunity is a 10th level Devotion paladin ability.

It's the other way around. Only devotion paladins get charm immunity (while conscious) at level 7.

Stillness of Mind would be more useful if it cost a ki point instead of an action*. Most frightening effects that I can think of grant a renewed saving throw at the end of your turn, not the beginning, so there's a good chance Stillness of Mind will be "wasted" on a fear effect that you were about to overcome anyway. There are charm effects which Stillness of Mind works against--and for a PC, I would never disallow any PC from knowing that they were charmed--but many charm effects also incapacitate (Hypnotic Pattern, Modify Memory, Tasha's (Uncontrollable) Hideous Laughter) and therefore prevent you from using Stillness of Mind.

Stillness of Mind is therefore pretty much irrelevant 99% of the time. Evasion is the more important 7th level feature.

* Stillness of Mind cost = 1 ki OR 1 action might be a worthwhile house rule.

[pwykersotz]

It's the other way around. Only devotion paladins get charm immunity (while conscious) at level 7.

Stillness of Mind would be more useful if it cost a ki point instead of an action*. Most frightening effects that I can think of grant a renewed saving throw at the end of your turn, not the beginning, so there's a good chance Stillness of Mind will be "wasted" on a fear effect that you were about to overcome anyway. There are charm effects which Stillness of Mind works against--and for a PC, I would never disallow any PC from knowing that they were charmed--but many charm effects also incapacitate (Hypnotic Pattern, Modify Memory, Tasha's (Uncontrollable) Hideous Laughter) and therefore prevent you from using Stillness of Mind.

Stillness of Mind is therefore pretty much irrelevant 99% of the time. Evasion is the more important 7th level feature.

* Stillness of Mind cost = 1 ki OR 1 action might be a worthwhile house rule.

That's a very interesting idea. On the one hand, I like the ability to not waste the roll. On the other though, Immunities and pseudo-immunities are my least favorite part of the game. Nothing is less fun to me than simply ignoring swaths of the game, it's why I've loved bounded accuracy so much. Making it cost a ki would make it usable enough times per day that they may as well be immune.

I think I'd almost rather have it give a large bonus on future saves when you initially fail a save versus charm or fear. But it's interesting. You've given me something to think about.

[MaxWilson]

That's a very interesting idea. On the one hand, I like the ability to not waste the roll. On the other though, Immunities and pseudo-immunities are my least favorite part of the game. Nothing is less fun to me than simply ignoring swaths of the game, it's why I've loved bounded accuracy so much. Making it cost a ki would make it usable enough times per day that they may as well be immune.

I think I'd almost rather have it give a large bonus on future saves when you initially fail a save versus charm or fear. But it's interesting. You've given me something to think about.

If you want to make it more costly, two possibilities are:

(1) increase the ki cost
(2) make it cost a bonus action or reaction.

Thinking about it some more, I think I like "reaction + 1 ki" even better than than "ki or action".

[MeeposFire]

How about "At the start of a monk's turn his mental awareness and fortitude allow him to abolish fear and charm effects from his mind even if he may not consciously aware of them. If this ability is used to remove these conditions from himself it costs him from being able to use one action for this round (normally monks only have one action per round), even if the charm or fear condition would otherwise prevent him from using it"?

Same basic effect but is unambiguously able to remove all fear and charm effects with a cost even ones that otherwise prevent actions. It does have a cost though in that the monk still loses his normal action that turn but will get rid of the effect. You could probably word it better if you try but I think you get the gist of it.

[Citan]

I completely agree with this. Also considering similar abilities are "you can't be charmed" it seems silly to assume it isn't 100% coverage. It would be frustraingly useless, since you're right in your assessment that most charms you don't know about. You'd basically be removing a class ability, and nobody would want the dm to handwave away your class skills. Besides, charms are rare enough that complete immunity is a pretty minor ability, and charm resistance is abundant.

Agreed with others that for the sake of balance and utility we should consider that Monk somehow can know by himself that he's under a charm effect (which could be the justification of an action, like doing some "preventive" self-mantra that actually makes him aware of the effect, thus ending it).

With that said I don't agree on the fact that if he could not do it himself it would be useless. If he's in a party with people that he knows from a long time, these people could tell him he may be under such an effect, inciting him to do his mantra "just in case".
Unless the one who did the charm explicitely specified something to prevent that (such as "don't trust your friends they are actually lying to you") I don't see why the Monk wouldn't trust them and do it.

Also, taking an action to dispel a charm or fear effect does not seem SO bad to me.
Fear is used mainly in battle, but many effects last several turns. Wasting a turn for a free auto-dispel is nice.
Charm can be used in battle but also outside of battle, and (IIRC) last several minutes. Outside of combat you don't usually need to track time on a "fighting level" so using an action is not important imo.

EDIT: Unless your player is metagaming (= his character is charmed and he doesn't manage/want to actually "forget" that) I don't see serious reason to restrict the use of the ability though. Because unless Monk is being a paranoid one, he should not think about using Stillness of the Mind without something happening, such as he does something very unusual to him or any exterior sign gives him a hint about his situation. So it's not OP, far from it.