Covering Up a Genocide

[glitterbaby]

So my twentieth level dwarf wizard has recently come across an Epic Spell (Epic Spellcasting is just 9ths requiring an artifact as a focus for a power boost) that allows him to reawaken any volcanically or tectonically dormant area. In the setting, kobolds have taken up residence in the ancient Dwarven homelands and the dwarves have been given political control of the region by our party. Not many people can stand in our way at this point and so we are kinda making the laws and claiming the right of conquest. With that being said, my character would rather not let anyone else know that he's basically committing genocide so my question is this: what kinds of tools does a 20th level wizard have at his disposal to cover up this crime? It's already hard to make divinations on him as a blessing of the gods and he constantly has Mind Blank up.

[Wafan]

You could always create an astral projection and then gate into the material plane. Than there are two versions of yourself on the same plane and you can use your astral projection to do the dirty work using your artifact. Just one of one thousand ways to do that.

[Wafan]

Might also be a little bit out there but if you use Persistent Time Stop you could stop time for 24 hours. It is a thirteenth lvl spell but there are metamagic feats that reduce it.

A dm of mine also mentioned the demiplane where magic originated from and said that all metamagic cast there was considered free and didn't increase the spell lvl. <--- Don't know if it is true, but someone else might be able to explain in a separate thread.
^(Temple of so and so)

[Andezzar]

Might also be a little bit out there but if you use Persistent Time Stop you could stop time for 24 hours. It is a thirteenth lvl spell but there are metamagic feats that reduce it.And how would a persistent time stop help? You still only get 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions.

[Wafan]

And how would a persistent time stop help? You still only get 1d4+1 rounds worth of actions.

Sometimes I forget that rule. My dm allows you to carry out 24 hours worth of actions, but you can't recast time stop until the duration ends.
It's a house rule, my mistake.

[Extra Anchovies]

Reawakening a volcano on kobold-occupied dwarven homelands is kinda big news, so Kurtulmak and Moradin are both going to do what they can to stop you. Given that Moradin's portfolio sense extends nineteen weeks into the future (and that what you're planning definitely "affects dwarven welfare"), I don't think you have much chance of getting to cast the spell at all.

And why are you destroying the dwarven homelands anyways? Setting off a volcano isn't going to leave much to reoccupy after the kobolds have burned to death.

[atemu1234]

I'd spread a plague, of some sort, and then start a mass exodus by spreading rumors of a safe haven in whatever direction you can trap and kill them.

I say plague because Kobolds have low constitution scores, and something with a high save DC would do the trick.

[Andezzar]

What are you trying to achieve with the volcanic activity, glitterbaby? Remove the kobolds? Remove the dwarves? Both? Or do you just want to play with your new toy?

If you want to selectively remove one race, a volcano probably is not the best solution. If you want to kill them all, who will be left to question you. If you fear the wrath of the gods, you may be best served by neutralizing them first.

[Taveena]

Volcanoes are actually pretty damn solid for the landscape. Ash is very fertile.
The larger concern is - barring a Yellowstone scenario - how is this going to cause genocide? Lava's very slow moving, volcanic winters are slow and unreliable, and pyroclastic flows don't go that far from the individual volcano.

[Inevitability]

Volcanoes are actually pretty damn solid for the landscape. Ash is very fertile.
The larger concern is - barring a Yellowstone scenario - how is this going to cause genocide? Lava's very slow moving, volcanic winters are slow and unreliable, and pyroclastic flows don't go that far from the individual volcano.

Earthquakes, I think. Kobolds live in underground tunnels, and a good earthquake would cause almost all of them to collapse. All you need to mop up the survivors is a moderately big army of dwarves.

[Seto]

Plus, if Kobolds were to live inside the dormant volcano... Well.

[Vizzerdrix]

Shame youre not willing to broker a truce between them. Kobolds are exelent miners. Maybe even better at it then dwarves.

[noob]

Shame youre not willing to broker a truce between them. Kobolds are exelent miners. Maybe even better at it then dwarfs.
They have only two points more.
And do not forget mining is linked a lot to technology and so if dwarfs have high technology in their mines(like efficient working carts, caged birds and so on) it probably gives them a circumstance bonus of two which completely remove the difference.
What would be great would be peace lasting long enough for kobolds and dwarfs to organize and exchange technology and so on.

[Coidzor]

So kobolds are in the area? In ruined dwarven cities specifically?

Why don't you want anyone to know you're getting rid of the kobolds and reoccupying the territory? Or is it just specifically the volcano genocide component of your arsenal you don't want to tip your hand about?

[glitterbaby]

You could always create an astral projection and then gate into the material plane. Than there are two versions of yourself on the same plane and you can use your astral projection to do the dirty work using your artifact. Just one of one thousand ways to do that.

I'm trying to cover up the act of me doing it afterwards, I'm not super worried about getting in and out unnoticed. The people will all be dead, hopefully.


Reawakening a volcano on kobold-occupied dwarven homelands is kinda big news, so Kurtulmak and Moradin are both going to do what they can to stop you. Given that Moradin's portfolio sense extends nineteen weeks into the future (and that what you're planning definitely "affects dwarven welfare"), I don't think you have much chance of getting to cast the spell at all.

And why are you destroying the dwarven homelands anyways? Setting off a volcano isn't going to leave much to reoccupy after the kobolds have burned to death.

The Gods are all somewhat indisposed at the moment so I'm not super worried about them. Vecna took over and became a supergod or something and Kas turned into a large godslaying crow that made Vecna and the rest of the gods run into the Prime to hide. There are a lot of holes in the story and the God of Secrets is making things difficult to find out.

I'm a relatively Good wizard and I made the mistake of telling my racist king that I'm capable of blowing up the mountains and I feel I have to do it now because dwarf. My character has been trying to be as dwarfy a dwarf as he can be because he's a 20th level wizard and he's supposed to be the savior of his people and stuff.


What are you trying to achieve with the volcanic activity, glitterbaby? Remove the kobolds? Remove the dwarves? Both? Or do you just want to play with your new toy?

If you want to selectively remove one race, a volcano probably is not the best solution. If you want to kill them all, who will be left to question you. If you fear the wrath of the gods, you may be best served by neutralizing them first.

There actually aren't any dwarves there anymore. They're the "ancient homelands" which is to be read as the dwarf king claiming all the mountains on the continent and my wizard telling everyone that they don't get to be there anymore. Thousands of years ago dwarves use to be there and there's probably some infrastructure there but I'm guessing the kobolds have defaced most of it over the last thousand or so years. It's half him wanting to play with his new toy and half him wanting all the kobolds gone. Once the kobolds are devastated, dwarven armies will march in, after lava cools of course, and clean up and resettle.


Volcanoes are actually pretty damn solid for the landscape. Ash is very fertile.
The larger concern is - barring a Yellowstone scenario - how is this going to cause genocide? Lava's very slow moving, volcanic winters are slow and unreliable, and pyroclastic flows don't go that far from the individual volcano.

Being decent for the landscape is mostly an added bonus, I was hoping to burn all the kobolds in fire. You don't think it'd actually be that effective?


Earthquakes, I think. Kobolds live in underground tunnels, and a good earthquake would cause almost all of them to collapse. All you need to mop up the survivors is a moderately big army of dwarves.

Earthquake eh? Hehe. He. It seems like it'd be much more easily concealed then an exploded mountain.


Shame youre not willing to broker a truce between them. Kobolds are exelent miners. Maybe even better at it then dwarves.

A shame, yeah. We're looking for a clean genocide here. A good wipe.


So kobolds are in the area? In ruined dwarven cities specifically?

Why don't you want anyone to know you're getting rid of the kobolds and reoccupying the territory? Or is it just specifically the volcano genocide component of your arsenal you don't want to tip your hand about?

Probably not in ruined dwarven cities but maybe. I know of one ancient dwarven king's tomb that had a massive amount of treasure that they nobody dared break into out of fear. I'm fine with people knowing the dwarves are retaking the place, I don't want people to think the dwarves, or me for that matter, would be cool with genociding a race. I still want to do it but I don't want people to know.

So any extra ideas then? The input so far has been quite helpful.

[Coidzor]

Seems like anyone who would care would put two and two together, especially if you made the mistake of telling the king and being ordered to do it in a place that wasn't warded against scrying.

Presumably if you care about any infrastructure or lost relics, you aren't going to want to destroy them by flooding the tunneled out portions of the mountains with magma.

...How fine of control can you do? It might be possible to bake the kobolds by increasing the amount of magma welling up inside each mountain to the point where they die or flee to the surface and have to live like goblins. This would probably destroy any remaining paper records and the like, but the stones and metal goods should be largely intact.

Even just destroying a generation of their eggs would have a fair impact.

Of course, you might run into some issues from any dragons living in the mountains ruling over kobolds.

[MisterKaws]

I think you might want to check if there are Dragonwroughts in the area. If there are, you might want to strengthen your armies first, because even if the gods can't exactly move much right now, I think Tiamat Might get pissed-off enough to help her bastard son if there are some dragon-descended in there, and sending her spawns wouldn't be that hard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You can't cover up a genocide. You can conceal your involvement in a myriad of ways but people are going to notice, rather quickly, that an entire race has been wiped out. Especially if you do it by literally moving mountains.

If you want to minimize the chances of being linked to the war-crime you're contemplating here, you need to do something subtle that will take longer than the 4-5 months that a greater deity's ability to see the future can cover.

I agree with atemu1234's suggestion of spreading plague amongst them. The advantages are pretty solid, you can seed a few 'patient-zero' targets amongst the population and use something with a moderately long incubation so that it has a chance to spread before it's noticed. You can call in backup from a god or goddess who's portfolio includes plague to cover your backside from kurtulmak's sight, at least. You only have to cover your connection to the zero-patients, whom you can abduct and dispose of when things get well under way. There's just a -lot- of advantages to this method.

On the other hand, plagues have been beaten back in the past so you'll have to do -something- to make it harder to break or to stymie efforts to fight it until it's spread so much that it's basically uncontainable. There's also the minor matter of disease completely ignoring species boundaries in D&D; there's going to be collateral. This will be a blight on the world as a whole with the extinction of the kobold people being a footnote in history when people read about the lavender death*. There's also the unfortunate fact that it will ultimately, probably fail. Kurtulmak will almost certainly deliver at least a handful of his chosen from the disaster.

That's my two cp. Good luck.

*Working title

[daremetoidareyo]

As I understand it, it doesn't matter who did it. All that is apparent is that a series of volcanoes and earthquakes killed off the kobolds.

Now if you want to untraceably cast the spell that allows you to hulk smash the entire race of kobolds, the conceal spellcasting skill trick is a nice touch. Astral projection shenanigans would also help.

Another option is to frame someone else. That seems easier than covering it up. Any fanatical fire/earth religions in your game world? Any with a headpriest with a historic thirst for power? Easy patsy.

[glitterbaby]

Seems like anyone who would care would put two and two together, especially if you made the mistake of telling the king and being ordered to do it in a place that wasn't warded against scrying.

Presumably if you care about any infrastructure or lost relics, you aren't going to want to destroy them by flooding the tunneled out portions of the mountains with magma.

...How fine of control can you do? It might be possible to bake the kobolds by increasing the amount of magma welling up inside each mountain to the point where they die or flee to the surface and have to live like goblins...
...Of course, you might run into some issues from any dragons living in the mountains ruling over kobolds.

Yup. That was kinda what I was thinking would be the most likely thing and I was mostly just hoping people would have something to help me out.

I think the king would be mostly ok with it but I'm sure, I'll make sure he's cool with it before I do it.

No dragons in the mountains here. They were largely contained to their own mountain range (connected to this mountain range but in a different political province) and then there was the whole "draconic holocaust" where many of the metallics were outright killed for not pledging to Vecna during his takeover.


I think you might want to check if there are Dragonwroughts in the area. If there are, you might want to strengthen your armies first, because even if the gods can't exactly move much right now, I think Tiamat Might get pissed-off enough to help her bastard son if there are some dragon-descended in there, and sending her spawns wouldn't be that hard.

Probably no dragonwroughts but I can't be certain. My group started this campaign three years ago when we didn't have a lot of system mastery so no VDK's really anywhere. If you meant to say Dragonspawn, none of them either as all the dragons are in the other province I was talking about. I could make the entire plate active and mess up the dragons but I'm a little afraid of the repercussions of angering literally all the dragons.

[MisterKaws]

Yup. That was kinda what I was thinking would be the most likely thing and I was mostly just hoping people would have something to help me out.

I think the king would be mostly ok with it but I'm sure, I'll make sure he's cool with it before I do it.

No dragons in the mountains here. They were largely contained to their own mountain range (connected to this mountain range but in a different political province) and then there was the whole "draconic holocaust" where many of the metallics were outright killed for not pledging to Vecna during his takeover.



Probably no dragonwroughts but I can't be certain. My group started this campaign three years ago when we didn't have a lot of system mastery so no VDK's really anywhere. If you meant to say Dragonspawn, none of them either as all the dragons are in the other province I was talking about. I could make the entire plate active and mess up the dragons but I'm a little afraid of the repercussions of angering literally all the dragons.

Guess you've got it all covered up then. Although I doubt you can do a quick genocide without them noticing, even with Kas going berserk on the gods. Also, keep an eye out to make sure your DM doesn't do an Asspull with an Epic Dragon's egg; you don't want to enrage Mama Force Dragon.

[ATHATH]

As I understand it, it doesn't matter who did it. All that is apparent is that a series of volcanoes and earthquakes killed off the kobolds.

Now if you want to untraceably cast the spell that allows you to hulk smash the entire race of kobolds, the conceal spellcasting skill trick is a nice touch. Astral projection shenanigans would also help.

Another option is to frame someone else. That seems easier than covering it up. Any fanatical fire/earth religions in your game world? Any with a headpriest with a historic thirst for power? Easy patsy.
Aw, you stole what I was going to say.

You could also just pump out enough propaganda to make the majority of the Dwarven people just not care about the genocide, with some of them probably actively supporting it.

Also, Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel. He's good with PR, right?

[glitterbaby]

You can't cover up a genocide. You can conceal your involvement in a myriad of ways but people are going to notice, rather quickly, that an entire race has been wiped out. Especially if you do it by literally moving mountains.

If you want to minimize the chances of being linked to the war-crime you're contemplating here, you need to do something subtle that will take longer than the 4-5 months that a greater deity's ability to see the future can cover.

I agree with atemu1234's suggestion of spreading plague amongst them. The advantages are pretty solid, you can seed a few 'patient-zero' targets amongst the population and use something with a moderately long incubation so that it has a chance to spread before it's noticed. You can call in backup from a god or goddess who's portfolio includes plague to cover your backside from kurtulmak's sight, at least. You only have to cover your connection to the zero-patients, whom you can abduct and dispose of when things get well under way. There's just a -lot- of advantages to this method.

On the other hand, plagues have been beaten back in the past so you'll have to do -something- to make it harder to break or to stymie efforts to fight it until it's spread so much that it's basically uncontainable. There's also the minor matter of disease completely ignoring species boundaries in D&D; there's going to be collateral. This will be a blight on the world as a whole with the extinction of the kobold people being a footnote in history when people read about the lavender death*. There's also the unfortunate fact that it will ultimately, probably fail. Kurtulmak will almost certainly deliver at least a handful of his chosen from the disaster.

That's my two cp. Good luck.

*Working title

As effective as a plague might be I'm mostly looking to blow the thing to kingdom come. My character also really wouldn't go for disease as a weapon. He's been trying to be all dwarfy lately and disease sounds like a dishonorable way to wreck some fools. Blowing it all up just feels cooler, too.


As I understand it, it doesn't matter who did it. All that is apparent is that a series of volcanoes and earthquakes killed off the kobolds.

Now if you want to untraceably cast the spell that allows you to hulk smash the entire race of kobolds, the conceal spellcasting skill trick is a nice touch. Astral projection shenanigans would also help.

Another option is to frame someone else. That seems easier than covering it up. Any fanatical fire/earth religions in your game world? Any with a headpriest with a historic thirst for power? Easy patsy.

And that's what I'm hoping for. I'm not worried about people noticing me actively casting the spell, I want to make sure people don't trace it back to me. Pinning it on someone else might not be a bad idea, to be honest. I just don't know how I'd spin it. I honestly don't know how many NPC's know I'm capable of doing this. I know that the entire party does, at least, and we have two exalted characters. One of the PC's is already Evil so I'm not worried about their reaction too much He wields the Sword of Kas which conveniently drinks in all of the souls of the people he kills and they power up the Godslayer monster/crow/thing. I'll be honest when I say that I'd prefer literally nobody but my character and the dwarf king know that I did the explody/earthquaky/devastation genocide. Sadly no fanatical fire or earth religions in the world. Pretty much the only religion allowed is worship of Vecna.


Guess you've got it all covered up then. Although I doubt you can do a quick genocide without them noticing, even with Kas going berserk on the gods. Also, keep an eye out to make sure your DM doesn't do an Asspull with an Epic Dragon's egg; you don't want to enrage Mama Force Dragon.

I don't think my DM would pull something like that. He's an author so he hates when people pull things out of nowhere that don't belong. Every one of this guys dungeons are ecologically feasible, or so he claims.


Aw, you stole what I was going to say.

You could also just pump out enough propaganda to make the majority of the Dwarven people just not care about the genocide, with some of them probably actively supporting it.

Also, Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel. He's good with PR, right?

It's not that I want the genocide to be cool with the dwarves, it's that I just don't want people to know who was behind the genocide. Best case scenario for me is everyone thinking it was a freak geological event. Hehe, I'd certainly appreciate any advice the Master of Evil himself could offer.

[MisterKaws]

Oh, one last thing: Find a way to cover up the aura; it's going to last for almost a week with your current level, and that'd be pretty easy to trace back to an epic Wizard, since it's pretty rare.

[Telonius]

I'm a relatively Good wizard and I made the mistake of telling my racist king that I'm capable of blowing up the mountains and I feel I have to do it now because dwarf. My character has been trying to be as dwarfy a dwarf as he can be because he's a 20th level wizard and he's supposed to be the savior of his people and stuff.



Did you specifically tell your King that you wouldn't tell the Kobolds about it beforehand? I imagine that if you can literally move a mountain, transporting the current Kobold settlement an additional mile below the surface shouldn't be too hard. Kobolds get to hide out deeper than they ever could have (and hail you as their savior), the Dwarves get their mountain back (and hail you as their savior), you blow up your volcano (and everybody is impressed) - everybody wins.

[Feint's End]

IMO this whole thing wouldn't be very dwarfy (considering that you said your character is very much a typical one). Blowing up your ancestors homeland? Likely destroying most of whats left? That sounds a bit crazy to me. This whole thing will likely do more damage to the environment and the mountains than to the kobolds.

Which brings me to the next point. You won't get a clean whipe from this. You might be able to get a good portion of them dead but nothing like a genocide. Unless we are talking nuke levels of devastation but then again you are blowing up your dwarfen ancient homelands (2 holy words for them IMO).

In conclusion I doubt any "typical" dwarf would risk destroying their ancestors homes.

[Red Fel]

Also, Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel. He's good with PR, right?

http://i50.tinypic.com/11l7si1.jpg

Alright, what's all this then? Covering up a genocide? How cute. Let's see.


So my twentieth level dwarf wizard has recently come across an Epic Spell (Epic Spellcasting is just 9ths requiring an artifact as a focus for a power boost) that allows him to reawaken any volcanically or tectonically dormant area. In the setting, kobolds have taken up residence in the ancient Dwarven homelands and the dwarves have been given political control of the region by our party. Not many people can stand in our way at this point and so we are kinda making the laws and claiming the right of conquest. With that being said, my character would rather not let anyone else know that he's basically committing genocide so my question is this: what kinds of tools does a 20th level wizard have at his disposal to cover up this crime? It's already hard to make divinations on him as a blessing of the gods and he constantly has Mind Blank up.

Aaaaand now you're Evil. Have fun with that.


I'm trying to cover up the act of me doing it afterwards, I'm not super worried about getting in and out unnoticed. The people will all be dead, hopefully.

Why? You cover this up, people won't know what to think. The Dwarves, not knowing whether the volcano could act up again, will be afraid to return. The ever-resilient Kobolds, not knowing the difference, might try to return anyway.

You don't cover it up? Everyone knows two things. First: This land is yours, and nobody lives there without your consent. Nobody lives being the operative language. Second: Nobody messes with you.


I'm a relatively Good wizard and I made the mistake of telling my racist king that I'm capable of blowing up the mountains and I feel I have to do it now because dwarf. My character has been trying to be as dwarfy a dwarf as he can be because he's a 20th level wizard and he's supposed to be the savior of his people and stuff.

Hahahahaha. Not anymore. You're officially one sick, twisted, Evil son-of-a-demon.

I don't care that your king told you to do it. I don't care that you feel some misguided racist pride, "because Dwarf." "Because dwarf" is a reason to craft, or drink, or worship Moradin. It's a reason to mock Elves and dislike Orcs. It's a reason to appreciate smacking a hammer against things, and against people.

It is not - more accurately, it is never - a justification for genocide. Unless by "Dwarf" you mean "Duergar," in which case go nuts, you Evil card, you.


There actually aren't any dwarves there anymore. They're the "ancient homelands" which is to be read as the dwarf king claiming all the mountains on the continent and my wizard telling everyone that they don't get to be there anymore. Thousands of years ago dwarves use to be there and there's probably some infrastructure there but I'm guessing the kobolds have defaced most of it over the last thousand or so years. It's half him wanting to play with his new toy and half him wanting all the kobolds gone. Once the kobolds are devastated, dwarven armies will march in, after lava cools of course, and clean up and resettle.

So, in other words, the Dwarf king took the land by fiat - by unjust and unlawful fiat, at that - based solely on the fact that maybe some of his ancestors were there once, centuries ago. And now you are being the hand of the king and the fist of the gods with your genocide-cano.

I love this story.


A shame, yeah. We're looking for a clean genocide here. A good wipe.

Stop, stop, you're killing me. Clean genocide? Kid, there is nothing clean about genocide. It's genocide. It's going to be messy. You're killing entire warrens, thousands of Kobolds. And not just soldiers and trapsmiths. Warren matriarchs, storytellers, and lots and lots of infants and eggs. The tunnels will reek of Kobold remains for years to come.

Revel in it a little. Clean genocide? Pfft, amateur.


Probably not in ruined dwarven cities but maybe. I know of one ancient dwarven king's tomb that had a massive amount of treasure that they nobody dared break into out of fear. I'm fine with people knowing the dwarves are retaking the place, I don't want people to think the dwarves, or me for that matter, would be cool with genociding a race. I still want to do it but I don't want people to know.

They're not. Nobody is cool with genocide. But you're still willing to do it.

You monster.


As effective as a plague might be I'm mostly looking to blow the thing to kingdom come. My character also really wouldn't go for disease as a weapon. He's been trying to be all dwarfy lately and disease sounds like a dishonorable way to wreck some fools. Blowing it all up just feels cooler, too.

Oh, how humane. He doesn't want to go the dishonorable route of using disease. He'd rather burn them all with lava, bury them in debris, and choke them with ash.

How chivalrous of him.


And that's what I'm hoping for. I'm not worried about people noticing me actively casting the spell, I want to make sure people don't trace it back to me. Pinning it on someone else might not be a bad idea, to be honest. I just don't know how I'd spin it. I honestly don't know how many NPC's know I'm capable of doing this. I know that the entire party does, at least, and we have two exalted characters. One of the PC's is already Evil so I'm not worried about their reaction too much He wields the Sword of Kas which conveniently drinks in all of the souls of the people he kills and they power up the Godslayer monster/crow/thing. I'll be honest when I say that I'd prefer literally nobody but my character and the dwarf king know that I did the explody/earthquaky/devastation genocide. Sadly no fanatical fire or earth religions in the world. Pretty much the only religion allowed is worship of Vecna.

And you guys are the heroes. I love this story.

How is this even possible? You have two Exalted characters. You have one guy who wields a soul-drinking sword. And you have your PC, who wants to commit genocide. How has your party not completely imploded?


It's not that I want the genocide to be cool with the dwarves, it's that I just don't want people to know who was behind the genocide. Best case scenario for me is everyone thinking it was a freak geological event. Hehe, I'd certainly appreciate any advice the Master of Evil himself could offer.

Then here it is, friend.

Take the press hit.

Right now, you have one option - genocide, or no genocide.

No genocide means nothing changes. You look for another route and nobody has to be the wiser. Nobody knows you have this kind of power, and nobody cares.

Genocide, though? That changes everything. Because you can't cover up the fact that a volcano suddenly snuffed out an entire Kobold population. And if you're going to do that, make it count.

Let me explain. When you commit Kobold genocide, your alignment will take a pretty permanent nosedive into the deep end of the alignment pool. Ain't nothin' gonna wash out those stains, kid. And if you stop there - if you try to conceal your involvement - then all you've done is killed a bunch of Kobolds.

I want you to think about that. You will have accomplished what first-level adventuring parties do every freaking day. You will have wielded phenomenal cosmic power to wage destruction on a truly grand scale, you will have damned your soul a thousand times over, to take out a bunch of creatures that occupy the absolute bottom of the monster food chain.

Why waste that? Why hide that? Live in your triumph, chief. Make it abundantly clear who is responsible, and why.

There's no fear of divine retribution. You already explained that. And no mortal would dare mess with someone who could explode his entire civilization. You would be the new hand of god. You would be the new world order. "Be good," you would say, "Or the planet beneath you will literally spray fire up your butt. Also you'll die." And people will listen.

Heck, issue the ultimatum first. Appear before the Kobolds in all your grandeur, and warn them that they have a fixed time period - say, seven days (it worked for Sadako) - to evacuate, after which the volcano will erupt. In seven days, on schedule, blow the thing sky high. And everyone will know your glory.

You say, "How can I conceal my involvement?" I say, "Why would you want to?"

[Segev]

All I have to say is: dibs on the corpses. You don't want to have to excavate them, anyway.

Oh, the things I can do with ash-choked, lava-baked corpses that died in agony and terror.

[atemu1234]

SNIP

Only you can combine Reason You Suck and advice so charmingly, red.

[Red Fel]

Only you can combine Reason You Suck and advice so charmingly, red.

It just strikes me as obvious. If I am contemplating genocide as a reasonable option, I must be Evil. And if I'm Evil, and I'm contemplating genocide, I want to kill two birds with one stone.

Admittedly, genocide means thousands of birds, but I want to kill all those birds and several other birds.

Efficiency, is my point. Make it count. Do more with it than just kill a bunch of Kobolds.

I mean, they're freaking Kobolds. They're not exactly teeming hordes of Outsiders, swarms of restless Undead, or a Dragon and his poker buddies. They're Kobolds. Killing them with anything more than a broadsword and a Fireball is almost wasteful.

[Zancloufer]

Actually building up on Red-Fel's plan if you want to "cover it up":

1) After some significant day for star alignment (day after the full moon(s) works well) go to the Kolbold village and proclaim your vision. Say because of your mighty prowess as a Wizard you have come to the conclusion that on the next full moon (which is like in 3-5 weeks) the volcano that they live in will explode and kill them all.

2) Help them leave, heck even offer them employment and housing after this. This way it will seem like you are there to stop the catastrophe.

3) On the appointed day using some of the stealth tricks mentioned here, blow the mountain sky high.

4) There! Not only have your obeyed your king but you also attempted to save the Kolbolds. Also doubles as giving you a reputation for knowing when volcanoes will go off. Could probably (not bluff) some other people out of places by threatening them with the knowledge of impending doom. Volcano related doom, as you know your like the Volcano Whisperer now. Will probably take some sort of alignment hit but if you want to try to do this "Clean" the only way is to infer you know the disaster is going to happen without actually saying you will deliver it.

[Strigon]

Actually building up on Red-Fel's plan if you want to "cover it up":

1) After some significant day for star alignment (day after the full moon(s) works well) go to the Kolbold village and proclaim your vision. Say because of your mighty prowess as a Wizard you have come to the conclusion that on the next full moon (which is like in 3-5 weeks) the volcano that they live in will explode and kill them all.

3) On the appointed day ... blow the mountain sky high.

4)...Will probably take some sort of alignment hit...

"Will probably take some sort of alignment hit"? Yeah, it's possible.

I mean, all you're doing is telling an entire species to drop everything and leave their homeland, and killing anyone who doesn't comply! That might have a slight impact on your alignment.

Edit: Also, Red Fel, you make it sound like slaughtering every kobold in their homeland is the same as cleaning out 3D6 kobolds in a cave; I'm disappointed.

[noob]

You might also try the regular way for wizards if you go the evil route:
Mind-rape(or programmed amnesia) all the kobolds and then make them ally with the dwarfs.
That is a way better way than genocide: you will have one ton of good kobolds who wants to help you and the dwarfs instead of a pile of corpses.

[Segev]

...instead of a pile of corpses.

Hey, back off, noob! I already called dibs on the pile of corpses!

[Andezzar]

Also a ton of kobold corpses zombies requires fewer resources to keep helping.

[noob]

Kobolds does not makes zombies and skeletons as much great as humans or other humanoids.
Then they both fail of in comparison with animals.
For higher level undeads the base type is not important: it is either the level of the guy(vampire, bone creature and other cool templates) or nothing(fixed stats undead like morghs or wights that are identical if made from chickens) or needs a particular thing that is not a kobold(like giants)
So you are not missing a lot(You are better off grabbing big animals or chickens(which are in an unlimited supply thanks to chicken infested commoners)).

[Segev]

Kobolds does not makes zombies and skeletons as much great as humans or other humanoids.
Then they both fail of in comparison with animals.
For higher level undeads the base type is not important: it is either the level of the guy(vampire, bone creature and other cool templates) or nothing(fixed stats undead like morghs or wights that are identical if made from chickens) or needs a particular thing that is not a kobold(like giants)
So you are not missing a lot(You are better off grabbing big animals or chickens(which are in an unlimited supply thanks to chicken infested commoners)).Sometimes, it's the manner and magnitude of the death that matters.

[Red Fel]

Edit: Also, Red Fel, you make it sound like slaughtering every kobold in their homeland is the same as cleaning out 3D6 kobolds in a cave; I'm disappointed.

The OP is playing a level 20 Wizard. If slaughtering every Kobold in their homeland isn't the same as cleaning out 3d6 Kobolds in a cave, you're doing it wrong.

[Segev]

The OP is playing a level 20 Wizard. If slaughtering every Kobold in their homeland isn't the same as cleaning out 3d6 Kobolds in a cave, you're doing it wrong.

I think he meant morally.

It takes a lot more to justify genocide of a homeland than it does to justify exterminating one warren. The latter can be guilty of multiple murders and a plague of banditry. The former...it takes more than a few murders to justify wiping a whole civilization out.

[Red Fel]

I think he meant morally.

It takes a lot more to justify genocide of a homeland than it does to justify exterminating one warren. The latter can be guilty of multiple murders and a plague of banditry. The former...it takes more than a few murders to justify wiping a whole civilization out.

Well, then, if you care about morality, all the more reason to send in packs of roving adventurers to knock out a few at a time until it becomes inhospitable to the Kobolds, rather than invoking Gaea's wrath and utterly annihilating them en masse.

Just saying. We kind of threw out the issue of "the better moral option" when the OP announced he was going to detonate a dormant volcano under an entire civilization because some highfalutin' king told him to.

Oh, and "because Dwarf."

[Strigon]

I think he meant morally.


No, no; I meant the actual difficulty.
I mean, specifically this quote:

...You will have accomplished what first-level adventuring parties do every freaking day...

Annihilating an entire civilization, which I can only assume has more than a few class levels between them, is no easy task. This, of course, gets harder when they're something as cunning as a kobold, and they're given fortifications built by dwarves. Even if you're a wizard 20, it takes resources.

[Segev]

Well, then, if you care about morality, all the more reason to send in packs of roving adventurers to knock out a few at a time until it becomes inhospitable to the Kobolds, rather than invoking Gaea's wrath and utterly annihilating them en masse.

Just saying. We kind of threw out the issue of "the better moral option" when the OP announced he was going to detonate a dormant volcano under an entire civilization because some highfalutin' king told him to.

Oh, and "because Dwarf."Well, yeah. I agree, if you're going to genocide a race just because they're in the way of your own, you're proooobably not Good.


No, no; I meant the actual difficulty.
I mean, specifically this quote:


Annihilating an entire civilization, which I can only assume has more than a few class levels between them, is no easy task. This, of course, gets harder when they're something as cunning as a kobold, and they're given fortifications built by dwarves. Even if you're a wizard 20, it takes resources.Oh, okay.

[Red Fel]

Annihilating an entire civilization, which I can only assume has more than a few class levels between them,

An assumption.


is no easy task.

For people who are not 20th-level Wizards.


This, of course, gets harder when they're something as cunning as a kobold,

Kobolds: blessed with the cunning and inventive brain of a Kobold, and cursed with the flimsy and squishy body of a Kobold. Their craftiness aside, I wouldn't bet on an army of level 1 mooks against a level 20 Wizard who can bend reality to his will and doesn't even need to be present to kill them.


and they're given fortifications built by dwarves.

Those fortifications were built by Dwarves... Centuries ago. Even assuming that they've lasted to this date - again, an assumption - the Dwarves left those fortifications behind. Now, I don't know about you, but I happen to find stereotyping easier than getting to know somebody; I find that Dwarves are greedy hoarders, and wouldn't ditch a broken wooden mug if you could block up the holes in it with beard-hairs. Which tells me that those fortifications weren't up to snuff in their heyday, let alone now, centuries after their abandonment. So I'm not convinced that's as big a problem as you've made it out to be.


Even if you're a wizard 20, it takes resources.

Which you've had 20 levels to accumulate.

I'm just saying, if you have an object that lets you detonate a portion of the planet's core, I'm going to assume you have "resources."

[noob]

Sometimes, it's the manner and magnitude of the death that matters.
Drop 324235435 chickens in a volcano?
Make a gigantic chicken farm near an volcano you know to be active?
And if you need them to be sentient maybe you could use some living spells of awaken onto those chickens.(By the way it is an easy way to have spawn making undead in mass)
However I am quite sure that you could get new kind of fancy undead if you convince your gm that undead made from kobolds killed by a volcano are a cool concept.

[ATHATH]

Different Idea: Perform a coup on the King, justifying it to the populace by saying that he wanted to use your volcano-erupting powers to commit genocide (find a way to legally challenge the throne as well, to placate the people that care about that kind of thing). Now you have good publicity with both the Dwarves and the Kobolds, your Exalted party members are happy that you "rooted out and destroyed corruption", everyone knows that you can blow up volcanoes, and you gain control of the Dwarven Kingdom.

[glitterbaby]

Well looks like we're going in an awkward order here.


Different Idea: Perform a coup on the King, justifying it to the populace by saying that he wanted to use your volcano-erupting powers to commit genocide (find a way to legally challenge the throne as well, to placate the people that care about that kind of thing). Now you have good publicity with both the Dwarves and the Kobolds, your Exalted party members are happy that you "rooted out and destroyed corruption", everyone knows that you can blow up volcanoes, and you gain control of the Dwarven Kingdom.

A coup definitely isn't something my character would consider. He definitely isn't afraid of the king or really any of the dwarves so he could seize power at any point but he really has no interest in becoming king. The mantle of protector of his people was more or less thrust upon him when he gained enough power to be capable of doing so. The game started out with the dwarves being encased in a shell of unbreakable plot rock and my character was setting out to break it because overcrowding and starvation and stuff. His responsibility just grew and grew as he gained more and more power. I've actually already been named High General, basically nobody ranks above me but the king and the church, which doesn't rank above me but is outside of my command.



I'm just saying, if you have an object that lets you detonate a portion of the planet's core, I'm going to assume you have "resources."

Oddly enough, resources are kinda thin. Now I'm not saying I don't have access to resources, just that they aren't mine. I walked in and asked the king for a loan once to transform our fallen paladin into a half-golem and he just dished out 80k when I only needed 20k. I had to pay 90k back because apparently it's dwarven custom to pay back more than you borrow, thanks DM :smalltongue:. That was like five levels ago.


You might also try the regular way for wizards if you go the evil route:
Mind-rape(or programmed amnesia) all the kobolds and then make them ally with the dwarfs.
That is a way better way than genocide: you will have one ton of good kobolds who wants to help you and the dwarfs instead of a pile of corpses.

Even though he's contemplating genocide, my character still believes he's Good. He's convinced himself that protecting and nurturing the dwarven people is Good and most things that help that are then Good. He's very on the fence about the genocide and he'll certainly be broken for a good week after if he ends up doing it.


Only you can combine Reason You Suck and advice so charmingly, red.

I should feel privileged for being on the receiving end of it, eh? :smallbiggrin:


IMO this whole thing wouldn't be very dwarfy (considering that you said your character is very much a typical one). Blowing up your ancestors homeland? Likely destroying most of whats left? That sounds a bit crazy to me. This whole thing will likely do more damage to the environment and the mountains than to the kobolds.

Which brings me to the next point. You won't get a clean whipe from this. You might be able to get a good portion of them dead but nothing like a genocide. Unless we are talking nuke levels of devastation but then again you are blowing up your dwarfen ancient homelands (2 holy words for them IMO).

In conclusion I doubt any "typical" dwarf would risk destroying their ancestors homes.

The collateral damage is something that honestly hadn't been brought up yet but he'll be making sure he brings it up to the king first. Basically the dwarven people see the king as their paragon and whatever he says is dwarven, is dwarven. I think he was mostly excited about the enormity of the act. It was largely a shock to him to realize the scale of things that can be accomplished by someone pledging 100% loyalty to him and he's probably getting a little mad with power.


Did you specifically tell your King that you wouldn't tell the Kobolds about it beforehand? I imagine that if you can literally move a mountain, transporting the current Kobold settlement an additional mile below the surface shouldn't be too hard. Kobolds get to hide out deeper than they ever could have (and hail you as their savior), the Dwarves get their mountain back (and hail you as their savior), you blow up your volcano (and everybody is impressed) - everybody wins.

The tricky thing about the situation is that I can do this one specific super powerful spell but it's basically the only thing I can do that is on that power level. It's an Epic Spell and the way Epic Spells work in the setting is that you research a custom 9th level spell and make a thematically appropriate artifact the focus of it. The only reason I'm able to do this particular spell is that our group took down an Epic Wizard and I got all his spells, this one included. Given time, I would be able to research different custom Epic Spells but we actually don't have any downtime at the moment so I'm not able to. I didn't really tell the king much, no. The exchange was mostly "hey I can do this thing" followed by his eyes widening with excitement. I'm pretty sure he wants them all dead, he doesn't really care for a peaceful solution. Because kobolds aren't real people, or something like that.


Oh, one last thing: Find a way to cover up the aura; it's going to last for almost a week with your current level, and that'd be pretty easy to trace back to an epic Wizard, since it's pretty rare.

I honestly didn't know that was a thing. Are there rules for this somewhere?



Aaaaand now you're Evil. Have fun with that.

Would I be? I get that it's an absolutely heinous act and he'll be taking a significant dip but would I really drop all the way from Good to Evil with one act? My character is very "ends justify the means" but he's still on the fence about the whole thing. I mostly wanted to know what he's going to be doing if he goes through with it, because he's stupid intelligent and all.



Why? You cover this up, people won't know what to think. The Dwarves, not knowing whether the volcano could act up again, will be afraid to return. The ever-resilient Kobolds, not knowing the difference, might try to return anyway.

The dwarves will do what the king says so that's not an issue and we're looking to wipe out the kobolds so hopefully that also won't be an issue.



You don't cover it up? Everyone knows two things. First: This land is yours, and nobody lives there without your consent. Nobody lives being the operative language. Second: Nobody messes with you.


Hehe. Yeeaahhhhh. He's definitely been acting more like that lately. He was standing before the Council of Drakes last session trying to get their help to fight the Highest Cleric of Vecna and they were trying to get me to relinquish my claim to the mountains in order to get them to pledge dragons to the fight. We got off topic at some point and they were all "dwarven maggots cannot stand up to draconic might," and my character responded with "and draconic might cannot withstand me." These were all Gargantuan and larger dragons so I felt really cool. And when I told them they had to pay taxes! Too good.



Hahahahaha. Not anymore. You're officially one sick, twisted, Evil son-of-a-demon.

Yup. He'll definitely be broken for a bit. He'll be questioning how he can even live with himself after such an act and he might contemplate suicide but he knows he can't because there isn't much standing between the dwarve's complete destruction but him. He's a little stressed out right now.



I don't care that your king told you to do it. I don't care that you feel some misguided racist pride, "because Dwarf." "Because dwarf" is a reason to craft, or drink, or worship Moradin. It's a reason to mock Elves and dislike Orcs. It's a reason to appreciate smacking a hammer against things, and against people.

It is not - more accurately, it is never - a justification for genocide. Unless by "Dwarf" you mean "Duergar," in which case go nuts, you Evil card, you.


Oh you're right. Sadly, we'll probably be taking a dive into the deep end of the alignment pool.



So, in other words, the Dwarf king took the land by fiat - by unjust and unlawful fiat, at that - based solely on the fact that maybe some of his ancestors were there once, centuries ago. And now you are being the hand of the king and the fist of the gods with your genocide-cano.

Yup. So basically our group stormed in and what was akin to my character's kobold counterpart and took his artifact. I'm currently attuning to it between battles now :smallbiggrin:



I love this story.

I'm really glad. As I was saying, the DM is an author and I'm kinda hoping he ends up making the campaign notes into an actual novel.



Stop, stop, you're killing me. Clean genocide? Kid, there is nothing clean about genocide. It's genocide. It's going to be messy. You're killing entire warrens, thousands of Kobolds. And not just soldiers and trapsmiths. Warren matriarchs, storytellers, and lots and lots of infants and eggs. The tunnels will reek of Kobold remains for years to come.

Revel in it a little. Clean genocide? Pfft, amateur.


Oh no, my naivete is showing!



They're not. Nobody is cool with genocide. But you're still willing to do it.

You monster.

:smallwink:



Oh, how humane. He doesn't want to go the dishonorable route of using disease. He'd rather burn them all with lava, bury them in debris, and choke them with ash.

How chivalrous of him.


Thank you, thank you. I try. :smallwink:



And you guys are the heroes. I love this story.


Oh man you should have been there when the Godslayer was first being really active and everyone was bunkering down and hiding their artifacts and stuff. We broke into the capitol city of this mad wizard's province (the same one I took the Epic Spell from but before we wrecked him) and stole his artifact staff. We succeed and the entire complex goes all self-destruct which calls the Godslayer because it's attracted to power or something and all the other people are hiding their power so they don't attract him. Well we teleport out and he proceeds to kill like 20,000 civilians and other people, pretty much everyone who couldn't afford



How is this even possible? You have two Exalted characters. You have one guy who wields a soul-drinking sword. And you have your PC, who wants to commit genocide. How has your party not completely imploded?


Edit (Forgot to answer this one): The easy answer is that they want to redeem him. The more accurate answer is that they mostly look the other way and allow it to happen and get away with it. It's a little annoying sometimes. One of the two Exalted actually is really passively Good and I've never agreed that she should be Exalted but that's a question for another time.



You say, "How can I conceal my involvement?" I say, "Why would you want to?"

Mostly because he really doesn't understand the extent of everything he's doing. He doesn't want to be Evil, he doesn't think he is, and he isn't about to let other people see him doing something that might be interpreted as such.

[Blackhawk748]

Even though he's contemplating genocide, my character still believes he's Good. He's convinced himself that protecting and nurturing the dwarven people is Good and most things that help that are then Good. He's very on the fence about the genocide and he'll certainly be broken for a good week after if he ends up doing it.

The Road to Hell.......

Now that that is out of the way i am just gonna throw out this warning. Io made Kurtulmak because Garl Glittergold did pretty much this, and the promise was that "he would give him the power to make sure this never happened again". Now we assume that meant making him a god, but i have the sneaking suspicion that Io would have no trouble super charging Kutulmak to kill you to keep that promise, not to mention how pissed off Tiamat is going to be.

Hell if Kas is sao big a problem that Kurtulmak can't do anything issue as this Io may intervene himself. Cuz he made a promise, and from what i can tell, the Nine Fold Dragon keeps his word.

[MisterKaws]

I honestly didn't know that was a thing. Are there rules for this somewhere?

Detect magic. It's just a thing about the time the lingering dim aura lasts after a casting, which is 1d6 days for epic magic, and seeing as you can guess it was an epic magic pretty easily, since a 9th-level spell would last at most one hour, tracking you wouldn't be hard at all. You've got to find a way to camouflage the dim aura that will keep seeping from the volcano.

[Eisfalken]

LOL. Oh my effing God. Your wizard is so evil, and has been for a long, long time. He's basically insane, but kind of stupidly loyal so... Lawful or Neutral Evil.

Any DM who isn't a total moron would just pull you aside and say, "yeah, your actions in no way reflect a 'good' person, so you're evil now, enjoy the ride". It's not about some abstract notion of good at this point: you repeatedly commit acts that show a total disregard of the lives of other beings and/or you resort to the most harmful/violent methods to obtain your ends. I'm personally shocked your wizard even cares this much about the dwarves, but it does at least root you closer to Lawful than Chaotic, so... you're not a complete psychopath. Yet.

But yeah, no, your wizard is absolute evil. I would just have those exalted/good PCs start getting divine punishment even being around you at this point. Early on, you might have passed for fair; but now, you're just a step shy of the sinkhole of evil thing. Devils should be cavorting at the opportunities you present.

Congratulations: your wizard is the BBEG of the game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's cute how you think you're good. That "G" on your alignment line is a misprint friend. That you're even considering genocide, regardless of the reason, says you're not good. That the reason is "king says to" also puts you firmly in lawful territory.

A good character will go out of his way to help those less fortunate than himself, -regardless of race-.
An evil character has no compunction about killing to further their goals.
Neutral lies somewhere between those.

Clearly, you're not at all concerned with killing kobolds generally or you'd never even consider killing them all. Talk to your king about relocating the kobolds if you don't want your alignment to drop squarely into evil territory and talk to your DM about the nature of good and evil to be sure that G belongs on your sheet in the first place.

[antoin]

If I was DM of this campaign and you wanted to genocide an entire nation of kobolds...
* you are REALLY not going to like what happens next.


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRAyso5-FvPw8nT2D-ULpmdDAQ5CpIBsvmnnFym5GWJOmiFvubayXOilnw


That being said, there is no reason you should ever consider yourself Good from now on. Power corrupts, down the LE chute for you! Imho, your only redemption is overthrowing this horribly evil, mad, power-hungry king of yours. Devotion only can go so far, and you're telling me this (supposedly brilliant) Level 20 wizard of yours is incapable of seeing that blind obedience to his king is less than a good idea in this case? Saying "my character wouldn't consider a coup"...my friend, your character came to this thread to consider a coup. He doesn't have to be king. Just anyone but this psycho in charge.

[Coidzor]

Sometimes, it's the manner and magnitude of the death that matters.

I get the strangest feeling that you want to smoosh the ghosts of an entire Kobold genocide together into one massive ghost swarm amalgam creature thing.


Mostly because he really doesn't understand the extent of everything he's doing. He doesn't want to be Evil, he doesn't think he is, and he isn't about to let other people see him doing something that might be interpreted as such.

How?

He's a genius(wizard, can cast 9th level spells, survived to 20th level) and paranoid(survived to 20th level).

He knows he has the ability and wants to use volcanoes to wipe out a civilization. How could he not grasp the full extent of what he's doing?

He basically realized he could do this and because he could, he "had to," that's why he brought it up to the king who would jump on that like a fat kid on bacon, that's why he's committing to this path.

[Extra Anchovies]

I get the strangest feeling that you want to smoosh the ghosts of an entire Kobold genocide together into one massive ghost swarm amalgam creature thing.

It's like the Caller in Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/callerInDarkness.htm) turned up to 11.

...that might be a good reason to not set off the volcano, actually.

[Coidzor]

It's like the Caller in Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/callerInDarkness.htm) turned up to 11.

...that might be a good reason to not set off the volcano, actually.

Not without some way of getting it off the planet, at least.

Preferably directed at whichever side of the divine chusterflub you don't like, unless you enjoy the current divine chusterflub and want to prolong it, then send it at the side that seems to be winning.

[Segev]

I get the strangest feeling that you want to smoosh the ghosts of an entire Kobold genocide together into one massive ghost swarm amalgam creature thing.Is that my to-do list you're reading, there?


It's like the Caller in Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/callerInDarkness.htm) turned up to 11.

...that might be a good reason to not set off the volcano, actually.
Awwww... but... all that POWER. I have SUCH PLANS.






More seriously, despite my own...designs...on the detritus of your proposed action, I can objectively tell you that your PC is insane if he thinks this is a good act. The kobolds have not, from what you've said, made this an inevitable "them or the dwarves" situation, which is the only possible way for a Good person to even begin to justify such an act.

Now, if you, the player, want to go through with it, then have fun, but be aware that you're not playing a Good character anymore. He may believe himself to be, but he isn't, if he goes through with this. In fact, this is the level of self-delusion and horrific decision that sometimes is accompanied by divine visitations warning you off of your course. Moradin himself should be HORRIFIED to know that you may be planning this, and seeking to inspire heroes to stop you and your megalomaniacal tyrant-dwarf-king.

If you, the player, want your character to be Good, then he should have an epiphany as he contemplates this. Turn his intellect towards examining why it's justified in his mind, and see the logical flaw, that in being willing to exterminate an entire race and civilization that is not on the cusp of doing the same to the dwarven people and cannot as long as he's there to protect them, he's become WORSE than the kobolds, and he mars his very race with his actions. His heart should break at the thought of doing this. It should break and compel him to confront that it is wrong, and therefore that he should not do it.

If you want a story behind it, perhaps his last attempt to justify it should be something along the lines of recording everything about them, for posterity, before he destroys them, so he disguises himself and goes amongst the kobolds to learn their culture from the inside. And have him fall in love. Not romantically (necessarily), just...have him make friends, feel protective of some small koboldlings, and basically appreciate them as people. Flawed, perhaps, but find ones he knows killing will be wrong. And make him unable to go through with it. Better, have his intelligence guided by these experiences show him that it is RIGHT to refuse.

Because what you're planning for him is a leap off the moral event horizon, and you, at least, as his player, should know and appreciate that, and realize that any delusions of Good are just that if he goes through with it.

[Extra Anchovies]

Is that my to-do list you're reading, there?

Awwww... but... all that POWER. I have SUCH PLANS.

Never has your avatar been more relevant. What's that laughing businessman surrounded by ghosts from, anyways?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Never has your avatar been more relevant. What's that laughing businessman surrounded by ghosts from, anyways?

A quick google reverse image search doesn't turn up much but perhaps a suggestion that segev uses it for an avatar on other sites. :smalltongue:

[glitterbaby]

LOL. Oh my effing God. Your wizard is so evil, and has been for a long, long time. He's basically insane, but kind of stupidly loyal so... Lawful or Neutral Evil.

Any DM who isn't a total moron would just pull you aside and say, "yeah, your actions in no way reflect a 'good' person, so you're evil now, enjoy the ride". It's not about some abstract notion of good at this point: you repeatedly commit acts that show a total disregard of the lives of other beings and/or you resort to the most harmful/violent methods to obtain your ends. I'm personally shocked your wizard even cares this much about the dwarves, but it does at least root you closer to Lawful than Chaotic, so... you're not a complete psychopath. Yet.

But yeah, no, your wizard is absolute evil. I would just have those exalted/good PCs start getting divine punishment even being around you at this point. Early on, you might have passed for fair; but now, you're just a step shy of the sinkhole of evil thing. Devils should be cavorting at the opportunities you present.

Congratulations: your wizard is the BBEG of the game.

I don't think it's quite necessary to take such a tone in a thread asking for some friendly advice. Even if he were uncontestedly Evil, I don't think you're in a position to be questioning the character's core values when all you've seen is a few anecdotes. In a campaign that has been running for nearly four years, the character has done a lot to earn his Neutral Good status. I will certainly grant you that even thinking about the genocide is certainly teetering him over Neutral and performing it will probably send him into Evil but for now I'm holding to the opinion that my character is Good.


It's cute how you think you're good. That "G" on your alignment line is a misprint friend. That you're even considering genocide, regardless of the reason, says you're not good. That the reason is "king says to" also puts you firmly in lawful territory.

A good character will go out of his way to help those less fortunate than himself, -regardless of race-.
An evil character has no compunction about killing to further their goals.
Neutral lies somewhere between those.

Clearly, you're not at all concerned with killing kobolds generally or you'd never even consider killing them all. Talk to your king about relocating the kobolds if you don't want your alignment to drop squarely into evil territory and talk to your DM about the nature of good and evil to be sure that G belongs on your sheet in the first place.

His "because the king said so" stance is mostly due to him actively trying to be more dwarflike. He typically doesn't have much care for rules and oftentimes acts according to his whims, should they be harmless. He certainly goes out of his way to help those around him. Actually the very last thing before the last session ended my character told his dwarves to stop taking advantage of the incredibly naive new Pelorian converts who wanted to build roads and stuff and were paying 1 pp/lb for granite when the stuff is apparently nearly worthless. I'm certainly not contesting that if the guy were to go ahead and do the genocide that he'd then be Evil, I'm only saying that my character isn't as binary as you assert.


If I was DM of this campaign and you wanted to genocide an entire nation of kobolds...
* you are REALLY not going to like what happens next.


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRAyso5-FvPw8nT2D-ULpmdDAQ5CpIBsvmnnFym5GWJOmiFvubayXOilnw


That being said, there is no reason you should ever consider yourself Good from now on. Power corrupts, down the LE chute for you! Imho, your only redemption is overthrowing this horribly evil, mad, power-hungry king of yours. Devotion only can go so far, and you're telling me this (supposedly brilliant) Level 20 wizard of yours is incapable of seeing that blind obedience to his king is less than a good idea in this case? Saying "my character wouldn't consider a coup"...my friend, your character came to this thread to consider a coup. He doesn't have to be king. Just anyone but this psycho in charge.

Unfortunately overthrowing the king is just something he would never consider. He might have in the earlier days but not anymore.



How?

He's a genius(wizard, can cast 9th level spells, survived to 20th level) and paranoid(survived to 20th level).

He knows he has the ability and wants to use volcanoes to wipe out a civilization. How could he not grasp the full extent of what he's doing?

He basically realized he could do this and because he could, he "had to," that's why he brought it up to the king who would jump on that like a fat kid on bacon, that's why he's committing to this path.

Well because he's probably a bit of a racist himself. It's not so much that he doesn't understand the number of lives he's ending, it's that he doesn't necessarily value the individual lives that much. They're more like rats than people in his eyes. I can't really describe the way he feels about the kobolds but he doesn't think it's genocide but he doesn't think it isn't genocide.

Genius Wizard? Yup, toting a 37 Int right now. Paranoid? Actually not so much. We weren't much of thorn in the Evil Vecnic regime until we were decent enough level and by that point we had reached one of the only sovereign countries on the continent. They covered our back and spent an exorbitant amount of money on protecting us from assassins and the like. They nearly bankrupted their country to protect us and soon after, we had been blessed by the remaining gods to be warded against divinations (preventing the 'ol scry & fry) and found the mythical Isle of Mages, on which literally nobody can lay a hand on another without the force of the blow rebounding on them instead. So he survived to 20 by happenstance, really.


More seriously, despite my own...designs...on the detritus of your proposed action, I can objectively tell you that your PC is insane if he thinks this is a good act. The kobolds have not, from what you've said, made this an inevitable "them or the dwarves" situation, which is the only possible way for a Good person to even begin to justify such an act.

Now, if you, the player, want to go through with it, then have fun, but be aware that you're not playing a Good character anymore. He may believe himself to be, but he isn't, if he goes through with this. In fact, this is the level of self-delusion and horrific decision that sometimes is accompanied by divine visitations warning you off of your course. Moradin himself should be HORRIFIED to know that you may be planning this, and seeking to inspire heroes to stop you and your megalomaniacal tyrant-dwarf-king.

You're entirely right. I don't expect to continue playing a Good character if he goes through with the genocide. With that being said, as I noted above, I still think he's a Good character if he doesn't go through with it. The mere contemplation might even send him Neutral, though.




If you, the player, want your character to be Good, then he should have an epiphany as he contemplates this. Turn his intellect towards examining why it's justified in his mind, and see the logical flaw, that in being willing to exterminate an entire race and civilization that is not on the cusp of doing the same to the dwarven people and cannot as long as he's there to protect them, he's become WORSE than the kobolds, and he mars his very race with his actions. His heart should break at the thought of doing this. It should break and compel him to confront that it is wrong, and therefore that he should not do it.

If you want a story behind it, perhaps his last attempt to justify it should be something along the lines of recording everything about them, for posterity, before he destroys them, so he disguises himself and goes amongst the kobolds to learn their culture from the inside. And have him fall in love. Not romantically (necessarily), just...have him make friends, feel protective of some small koboldlings, and basically appreciate them as people. Flawed, perhaps, but find ones he knows killing will be wrong. And make him unable to go through with it. Better, have his intelligence guided by these experiences show him that it is RIGHT to refuse.

Because what you're planning for him is a leap off the moral event horizon, and you, at least, as his player, should know and appreciate that, and realize that any delusions of Good are just that if he goes through with it.

I'm picturing him flying high above the mountain range, tearfully trying to bring himself to pull the trigger. Whether or not he does it? I guess we'll have to wait and see.


This thread has brought up a few additional questions, however. This is assuming I'm going through with the genocide and not worrying about my character's alignment.

1) How would I ensure people would simply assume it were a freak geological event? Would they come to this conclusion on their own? Would I have to plant the theory myself?

2) Is there any way to cover up the magical signature that was brought up previously in the thread? Surely people won't believe it were a freak geological event if they throw a Detect Magic in the air and get an Overwhelming for the response.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not sure where you're getting binary.

A lawful character is a character with respect for tradition and authority, essentially a collectivist and authoritarian. The goods of the many and somebody needs to be in charge and all that.

This in contrast to the very individualistic, freedom-loving nature of being chaotic.

In any case, your dwarf may or may not be lawful but his obedience to the king is pushing him in that direction.

But to your questions;

It's basically impossible to completely conceal your involvement; legend lore says "hi." Barring that and the obvious portfolio senses of various gods and the presience of wierds, the most immediate concern is how you're going to keep the king from bragging about how "his wizard" destroyed their enemies in a glorious display of arcane might, for the good of his people of course.

The lingering dim aura doesn't actually tell anyone that -you- did it, only that somebody did so through magic. It's just one bread crumb on the trail. I -think- dispel magic can sweep it away (dispel magic's dim aura fades in a few seconds) but the area covered by dispel magic is tiny compared to a freakin' mountain. I don't think you're going to be able to do anything about this. At least not without lingering on the site so long as to make your involvement obvious to anyone who happens to be nearby, after the fact.

Oh, and rather hilariously, your intention of keeping it a secret throws this whole matter directly into Vecna's wheelhouse, for whatever that's worth.

[Coidzor]

1) How would I ensure people would simply assume it were a freak geological event? Would they come to this conclusion on their own? Would I have to plant the theory myself?

Have it mimic the projected Yellowstone super volcano instead of curiously and specifically only targeting the kobolds. The drow and duergar and illithid, etc. who live beneath them are toast. The human farmers that live downriver from them are choked in ash. Elves and trolls in the forests nearby are vaporized, along with the woods they were in, as roiling clouds of super-heated ash and gases wash over them. Random dragons flying in their neck of the woods are struck out of the air by colossal boulders sent careening into the sky by the massive explosion.

[glitterbaby]

I'm not sure where you're getting binary.

A lawful character is a character with respect for tradition and authority, essentially a collectivist and authoritarian. The goods of the many and somebody needs to be in charge and all that.

This in contrast to the very individualistic, freedom-loving nature of being chaotic.

In any case, your dwarf may or may not be lawful but his obedience to the king is pushing him in that direction.

To be honest, I'm not sure either, I'm just now heading to bed after quite a long day. I suppose I was feeling like the character was being shoved into a corner (the big E corner) with only a shred of evidence having been actually presented. I do agree, though, that he's definitely moving more towards Lawful but he definitely has to put in a lot of effort to do so. He actually started out Chaotic when I first created him at level one. He has since been trying to combat his Chaotic nature and act more dwarflike.



But to your questions;

It's basically impossible to completely conceal your involvement; legend lore says "hi." Barring that and the obvious portfolio senses of various gods and the presience of wierds, the most immediate concern is how you're going to keep the king from bragging about how "his wizard" destroyed their enemies in a glorious display of arcane might, for the good of his people of course.

The lingering dim aura doesn't actually tell anyone that -you- did it, only that somebody did so through magic. It's just one bread crumb on the trail. I -think- dispel magic can sweep it away (dispel magic's dim aura fades in a few seconds) but the area covered by dispel magic is tiny compared to a freakin' mountain. I don't think you're going to be able to do anything about this. At least not without lingering on the site so long as to make your involvement obvious to anyone who happens to be nearby, after the fact.

Oh, and rather hilariously, your intention of keeping it a secret throws this whole matter directly into Vecna's wheelhouse, for whatever that's worth.

Oh the dwarves hate arcane magic so that's not really a problem. It's pretty hilarious that all the citizens absolutely adore my character as the savior of the dwarves but they're horribly ashamed about how his power actually manifests. I was leading an army once to get a start on retaking the province.

Yup, good 'ol Vecna. I can't imagine he won't use it against me somehow but I guess that's a worry for a different day.


Have it mimic the projected Yellowstone super volcano instead of curiously and specifically only targeting the kobolds. The drow and duergar and illithid, etc. who live beneath them are toast. The human farmers that live downriver from them are choked in ash. Elves and trolls in the forests nearby are vaporized, along with the woods they were in, as roiling clouds of super-heated ash and gases wash over them. Random dragons flying in their neck of the woods are struck out of the air by colossal boulders sent careening into the sky by the massive explosion.

So the mountain range spans two whole provinces. The first one is the one in which the kobolds live and the second is inhabited by thousands of dragons. I could activate the entire tectonic plate and send a massive earthquake across two entire provinces but I feel as though that'd attract the ire of the dragons and that is something I don't think I'd want to do. I do feel like that'd be the most natural way to make it look though. I still don't know if I want to earthquake or volcano, though. Volcanoes are scattered across the area. I'm sure I could cover the entire province but I'd have to cast it [tens] of times (my DM didn't really give me a solid number) and it would be much harder to pull the trigger 20-30 times as opposed to just once.

[Kelb_Panthera]

To be honest, I'm not sure either, I'm just now heading to bed after quite a long day. I suppose I was feeling like the character was being shoved into a corner (the big E corner) with only a shred of evidence having been actually presented. I do agree, though, that he's definitely moving more towards Lawful but he definitely has to put in a lot of effort to do so. He actually started out Chaotic when I first created him at level one. He has since been trying to combat his Chaotic nature and act more dwarflike.

Well, yeah. You're contemplating one of the few things that is -always- an evil action. (Insert typical caveat about "always" not quite meaning literally 100% of the time) It's also one of the most extreme of evil actions. If your DM is using BoVD then this will likely result in a lingering evil effect on the area for years to come. What you're considering is the kind of thing that you'd have to work for decades to atone for before a Deity would even consider granting an atonement (as the spell). It really is just that bad.




Oh the dwarves hate arcane magic so that's not really a problem. It's pretty hilarious that all the citizens absolutely adore my character as the savior of the dwarves but they're horribly ashamed about how his power actually manifests. I was leading an army once to get a start on retaking the province.

The dwarves aren't the only ones that would be interested in such a geological event. Without a clear set of feet to lay the blame on, such an event may be seen as a portent or omen that needs further investigation. No one has to know anything about magic to approach a wierd and, while they're quite a long ways from forthright, they almost cannot fail to learn of anything they're asked in a matter of moments. Nevermind any kobold survivors or clerics of kurtulmak that live somewhere else seeking answers about why their brethren were, apparently, smote by the gods.

Ultimately, this will either get out relatively quickly or it won't get out at all and will fade into history. The deciding factor will ultimately be your DM's familiarity with the system and/or whether he wants to use it as a plot-point. If you really want to conceal this, your best bet is to lie to the king and convince him that it was not you but some act of the gods that brought down the mountain on the kobolds then hope no one gets it in their head to check for mortal influence in the week or so immediately following the event and that Vecna decides you might be a useful enough pawn to conceal your actions from the other gods and wierds. Stupid divines always mucking up mortal affairs.


Yup, good 'ol Vecna. I can't imagine he won't use it against me somehow but I guess that's a worry for a different day.

You should probably start offering him some alms immediately. Maybe even try and contact one of his divine emmisaries.


So the mountain range spans two whole provinces. The first one is the one in which the kobolds live and the second is inhabited by thousands of dragons. I could activate the entire tectonic plate and send a massive earthquake across two entire provinces but I feel as though that'd attract the ire of the dragons and that is something I don't think I'd want to do. I do feel like that'd be the most natural way to make it look though. I still don't know if I want to earthquake or volcano, though. Volcanoes are scattered across the area. I'm sure I could cover the entire province but I'd have to cast it [tens] of times (my DM didn't really give me a solid number) and it would be much harder to pull the trigger 20-30 times as opposed to just once.

This is a -bad- idea. The dragons can survive such events and will be -pissed-. They -will- investigate and they -will- find you outside of direct, divine intervention. Do Not Do This.

"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

[Segev]

Never has your avatar been more relevant. What's that laughing businessman surrounded by ghosts from, anyways?


A quick google reverse image search doesn't turn up much but perhaps a suggestion that segev uses it for an avatar on other sites. :smalltongue:

It was actually a gift by an artist from when we were working on a project together. I like it so much that I've made it my avatar whenever I take the pains to actually use one.




To the OP: I'm with Red Fel when it comes to "covering it up." If he's going to do it, why hide that he did it?

This is an honest question, here: what is it that he hopes hiding it will accomplish? Why doesn't he want people to know it was deliberate, or that it was him or the dwarven race that did it?

[ATHATH]

Ok, you're LN at best (assuming that you don't know that Kobolds are sapient), LE at worst. You're considering killing thousands of sapient beings because your superior told you to do so. That is extremely Lawful, and very Evil. It doesn't matter if your character has a low WIS, this is something that violates many basic moral principles. NOT knowing that this is wrong makes you a psychopath and plants you firmly into Evil territory.

I recommend getting a Cleric to help you talk for a bit with Moradin about this. If he wants you to smite the King for this (and he will), you can do so without being Chaotic (due to Moradin outranking the King).

[tomandtish]

Red Fel.... The poster child of evil with style.

Or in other words, the love child of Szass Tam and Stephen Colbert.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It was actually a gift by an artist from when we were working on a project together. I like it so much that I've made it my avatar whenever I take the pains to actually use one.

Original art? Nice.





To the OP: I'm with Red Fel when it comes to "covering it up." If he's going to do it, why hide that he did it?

This is an honest question, here: what is it that he hopes hiding it will accomplish? Why doesn't he want people to know it was deliberate, or that it was him or the dwarven race that did it?

He's been forthright with his character's motivations up to that point. I'm a bit curiouis myself. Perhaps shame? A character that doesn't realize he's evil taking a nearly irredeemably evil action could be reasonably expected to be ashamed of himself. The self-delusion is real but shame wouldn't be ureasonable.

[Segev]

Original art? Nice.I thought so. I appreciate the gift. :)



He's been forthright with his character's motivations up to that point. I'm a bit curiouis myself. Perhaps shame? A character that doesn't realize he's evil taking a nearly irredeemably evil action could be reasonably expected to be ashamed of himself. The self-delusion is real but shame wouldn't be ureasonable.

That's possible; I am asking the motive because the motive for hiding it will help determine the best course of action. Which may include "not hiding it" if the motive reveals some better way to achieve its end.

[Eisfalken]

He's been forthright with his character's motivations up to that point. I'm a bit curiouis myself. Perhaps shame? A character that doesn't realize he's evil taking a nearly irredeemably evil action could be reasonably expected to be ashamed of himself. The self-delusion is real but shame wouldn't be ureasonable.

Actually, the psychology behind all of this with the OP and the character and all is becoming very fascinating. I realized I hit pretty close to the mark when the OP chuffed at my post that said what almost everyone else, including Red Fel, had said regarding alignment. I was willing to write it off, but the OP kept making responses that aroused my curiosity about their mindset in all this.

My prediction is that this may become an interesting learning experience for the player, and possibly the DM as well.

[glitterbaby]

I'll preface the quoting with a bit of information that a lot of people seem to be touching on and I think it'd be helpful to clear up. Please forgive me if things aren't coherent, I am again just now heading to bed after another long day. Midterms are this week :smalleek:

From the start of the campaign NPC's have shown him next to no respect. For a while we had a second wizard in the party who would overshadow my character. This was entirely in an RP sense; I think the mechanical difference was that he started with an 18 int and I had a 17. Now the other wizard was also much more active. We tried to maximize efficiency by taking different combat roles, he was offensive with blasting and debuffs while I did mostly battlefield control. The other wizard also wouldn't make an idiot of himself on a semi-regular basis like mine would so he naturally commanded more respect. My character was banished in his backstory for pursuing arcana as a means to save the dwares from the brink of extinction and so he was always looked down on by the dwarves too. Now that he has saved them, he has all the responsibility of nurturing a group of people who need his help but don't want his help in the way that he would help them.


To the OP: I'm with Red Fel when it comes to "covering it up." If he's going to do it, why hide that he did it?

This is an honest question, here: what is it that he hopes hiding it will accomplish? Why doesn't he want people to know it was deliberate, or that it was him or the dwarven race that did it?

Well he's obviously in denial that he really is that bad a guy. If he was sitting at a table planning out what he was doing and someone came up to him and was all "you know you're committing genocide here," I really don't think he would believe the person. The tricky thing is that it's just so hard to nail the motivations down to just one thing when we have had hundreds of hours of play to develop the character with even more assumed development out of game. I think the initial motivation was an excuse to brag about his new ability to a king that never appreciated him and it kinda evolved from there. Justification after justification, self-delusion after self-delusion, and it eventually brought him to the point where he feels like he's just doing his normal dwarfly duty and anyone who has a different opinion just doesn't understand because they're not a dwarf. Much like a teenager in their angsty stage, he doesn't want people to know because they just won't understand his point of view and they'll peg him for a bad guy. And he doesn't want to be a bad guy. Most of all, he just wants his peers to respect and like him, not fear him.


Ok, you're LN at best (assuming that you don't know that Kobolds are sapient), LE at worst. You're considering killing thousands of sapient beings because your superior told you to do so. That is extremely Lawful, and very Evil. It doesn't matter if your character has a low WIS, this is something that violates many basic moral principles. NOT knowing that this is wrong makes you a psychopath and plants you firmly into Evil territory.

I recommend getting a Cleric to help you talk for a bit with Moradin about this. If he wants you to smite the King for this (and he will), you can do so without being Chaotic (due to Moradin outranking the King).

It isn't that he doesn't know that what he's doing, or planning on doing, is wrong. It's more that he just won't accept that he is a bad guy. His entire life's goal was to save the dwarven people and now that he's done that, he feels like he needs to nurture them. Saving a group of people from extinction is certainly Good and he has identified as Good for most of his life. Oftentimes when people think they are right, they don't self-analyze as they should and they end up defending an incorrect stance. With relatively few people to contest him (because he isn't telling people other than the king of his plans), his biases are getting the better of him as he reinforces his own incorrect point of view. It's a lot of "I am Good so most things that I think of are Good which means that if this thing that I'm thinking of helps the dwarven people it must be Good because I thought of it and I am Good (etc, etc)." It's delusional but I don't think I'd quite call it insane nor would I call him a psychopath. We all lie to ourselves, he's just taking it another step. I agree that, if he does go through with it, he would certainly be Evil and he'll be doing anything he can to atone for his heinous crimes.


He's been forthright with his character's motivations up to that point. I'm a bit curiouis myself. Perhaps shame? A character that doesn't realize he's evil taking a nearly irredeemably evil action could be reasonably expected to be ashamed of himself. The self-delusion is real but shame wouldn't be ureasonable.

Shame is about as good an answer as any. He'll tell himself that others just won't understand but he'll know deep down that he's doing something wrong. If it were right, he wouldn't hesitate so much.


That's possible; I am asking the motive because the motive for hiding it will help determine the best course of action. Which may include "not hiding it" if the motive reveals some better way to achieve its end.

I guess to summarize, the motivation for hiding it has too many considerations to really give one motivation. He thinks people will think poorly of him because they don't, and can't, understand. He subconsciously feels ashamed and so he doesn't want people to get the wrong idea, even though it's actually the right idea.


Actually, the psychology behind all of this with the OP and the character and all is becoming very fascinating. I realized I hit pretty close to the mark when the OP chuffed at my post that said what almost everyone else, including Red Fel, had said regarding alignment. I was willing to write it off, but the OP kept making responses that aroused my curiosity about their mindset in all this.

My prediction is that this may become an interesting learning experience for the player, and possibly the DM as well.

I'm not so sure it was the content you were hitting on more than the way in which you were approaching it. Your tone felt rather condescending and it seemed as though you were questioning my ability to roleplay and examine a character. It was an answer to a question I didn't ask and was presented in a manner that was far from complimentary. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the input (EDIT: +and I think it certainly is an interesting topic to explore). I just wish it would be less condescending and more constructive.

Again, I apologize if this is an incoherent jumble of words. I am rather tired as I'm posting this.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Desire for approval from peers and authority is another tic in the lawful box. Just sayin'.

[Ger. Bessa]

Epic bluff (boosted by an epic spell) then deny deny and deny.

[glitterbaby]

Desire for approval from peers and authority is another tic in the lawful box. Just sayin'.

Is it really? I had never really thought of that dynamic being a law vs chaos thing. So you would then argue that generally an internal sense of accomplishment might hint at a more chaotic nature?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is it really? I had never really thought of that dynamic being a law vs chaos thing. So you would then argue that generally an internal sense of accomplishment might hint at a more chaotic nature?

My understanding of the law/ chaos dynamic is that law is all about acting and thinking in terms of the collective while chaos is all about the individual.

A lawful character is concerned with the opinions and expectations of those around him. A lawful good character is concerned with how best to help the common good so that everyone is served by society in a just fashion thanks to rules and order. A lawful evil character is concerned with how others percieve him because of the fact that he can use those perceptions to influence people and build a power base to extend his reach through rules and order. A lawful neutral character is concerned with rules and order for their own sake because a stable and ordered society is the 'best' way to ensure survival.

A chaotic character is concerned primarily with the individual. Rules and structure just get in the way. A chaotic good character just wants to be free to do what he wants as long as he doesn't hurt anyone and will put himself at risk to ensure that others have the same freedom. A chaotic evil character wants to do what he wants, to hell with consequences, to hell with what anyone thinks, and to hell with anyone that stands in his way. A chaotic neutral character lies in between; he wants to be free to act as he pleases as long as he doesn't hurt anyone and that's it.

A neutral character lies somewhere in between. He respects the advantages of order and working together for common survival but is unlikely to make sacrifices simply for the sake of duty or tradition just because of societal expectations.

There's a bit of apparent overlap between law and good. The difference is in whether the primary motivation is altruism or mutual benefit. A good character wants what's good for everybody because it's -good- for everybody. A lawful character wants what's good -for everybody-.

[Sheogoroth]

Just depopulate the island ahead of time. What's the population of the island? A couple of rounds of Mass Contagion should depopulate it.
You could alternatively just deforest the island and let them starve. Feign ignorance if they trace it.
You could alternatively just make them out to be evil- dominate/charm/suggestion them to start following evil deities. Once that seed gets planted, it pretty much just grows itself.

[glitterbaby]

SNIP

Alright that makes sense enough, I suppose.


Just depopulate the island ahead of time. What's the population of the island? A couple of rounds of Mass Contagion should depopulate it.
You could alternatively just deforest the island and let them starve. Feign ignorance if they trace it.
You could alternatively just make them out to be evil- dominate/charm/suggestion them to start following evil deities. Once that seed gets planted, it pretty much just grows itself.

Are you sure you have the right thread here, friend? The kobolds are in a mountain range in the middle of a continent. They're already mostly Evil and follow an Evil deity while paying homage to another Evil Supadeity (I'd say overdeity but I don't think he's quite there. I think he became more powerful than the other deities by knocking them down a peg rather than powering up but that's total speculation).

[Segev]

Okay. So he's doing this because he thinks he has to to get approval from his people. But he's ashamed of it because he knows "others" would "not understand" and see it as "evil."

How is he going to get the approbation of his people if they don't know he did it? If they think he's evil for doing it - even if they "don't understand" - how does that get him their approval? He can either tell them about it, in which case they'll hate him for being evil (and he clearly knows it), or he can hide it, in which case they won't know he did it and thus won't appreciate him any more than they already do.

He's a high-Int wizard looking for reasons to and not to do this, and clearly has reservations about it. Analyzing it from this perspective should come naturally to him.

So, again: what benefit does he think he'll get from this if he covers it up?

I think covering it up is self-defeating for all his other goals, and would actively make it a pointless gesture from his perspective.

It's sounding, to me, like the intelligent thing is to realize that the cost/benefit analysis on all levels just doesn't add up. What's the point of doing something for the approval of a people who will, if they find out you did it, disapprove?

[Marcelinari]

I'd like to call attention to the Shadowrun canon, where the newly-empowered Native Peoples of North America decided that they wanted their land back, and when the then-USA refused, they detonated 4 volcanoes simultaneously. It was a very persuasive argument known as 'The Great Ghost Dance'. The natives got their land back.

With this in mind, you character probably ought to consider his ultimate goal (and perhaps, how his goal can be altered in order to not be so mind-blowingly evil). The direction from your king, it seems, was to destroy all the kobolds in order to retake the Dwarven Homelands, or some similarly flimsy excuse. If you're Good, you'll take that excuse and cling to it for dear life. Instead of your goal being 'destroy all kobolds', it becomes 'retake the Homelands', which is a lot more feasible, frankly.

The next step is to leverage your military and magical position. Like Red Fel suggests, announcing your intentions is an easy way to decrease the blame upon you for the deaths you will ultimately cause. Formally declare to the kobolds your intention to retake the Homelands, be very explicit that they have oh, say, a month to vacate, and if they don't, war will be declared.

When war is eventually declared (no self-respecting nation backs down to threats like that, but you have to try), send another messenger declaring your intention to pursue a campaign of annihilation if they persist in their resistance. Mobilize troops and armies, but don't actually start moving out.

After another week for them to comply, fly over and detonate the volcano closest to their main armies. Send another message saying that if they don't vacate, there will be more similar eruptions. You may need to do this once more.

As they panickedly evacuate, march your armies in and enforce the total evacuation. You don't care where they go, but they can't stay here.

This is by no means a Good way of dealing with the problem, but arguably, it is the way which results in the least loss of life, given that not invading is not really on the agenda. You probably won't fall right down to Evil, though you might hit Neutral with some degree of force. There's a slight possibility that you'll even stay Good.

[ATHATH]

Ah, now I see. The Wizard wants respect. He wants to prove to the world that he is important and useful, and thinks that serving the King and showing off his power will help him achieve that. He's a slave to peer pressure, and has been gradually shifting to LN because of that. Now he must choose between two of the things most dear to him: the respect of his peers/his King, or his own moral integrity (or he could take a third/fourth option (insert link to Tv Tropes here)). This is quite the character arc that you have going here, and I like it.

Option One: Mr. Wizard goes through with it. He, in front of a large crowd of dwarves that the King has called together for this occasion, blows up the Koboldish mountains. He looks to the crowd, expecting cheering and admiration- and finds shocked faces filled with horror. It is at this moment that he realizes that he has committed an atrocity, and he goes into a self-imposed exile. He acquires the Vecna-Blooded template, and tries to become a new Dwarf. The rest of the PC's can now either try to bring him back into the party or leave him to become an NPC hermit. Mr. Wizard is haunted by his choice forevermore.

Final Alignment: LN.

Option 2: Mr. Wizard tells the King, "No.". He resists peer pressure, and leaves "the path".

Final Alignment: LG, NG, or CG, depending on how and why you refuse the King.

Option 3: Mr. Wizard blows up a far-away volcano as a demonstration, and removes the Kobolds from the mountains via fear.

Final Alignment: LG or NG, depending on how you justify this.

Option 4: Mr. Wizard asks Moradin for guidance, and overthrows the King.

Final Alignment: LG.

Option 5: Mr. Wizard tells the other PC's about the situation, and the Exalted party members smite the King.

Final Alignment: LG, LN, CG, or NG, depending on what you would have done without the rest of the party.

[noob]

Final Alignment: LN.
nope it is CE

Option 3: Mr. Wizard blows up a far-away volcano as a demonstration, and removes the Kobolds from the mountains via fear.

you would need a volcano but also to find a way to make sure you will not kill far people by doing so(the smoke obscuring the sky and so on makes a volcano threatening in an enormous range and there will be nearly surely poor peasants who will die of starvation because of you and other things of this kind)

[Segev]

nope it is CE

Looking for approbation? That's LE, not CE.

[atemu1234]

nope it is CE

Option 3: Mr. Wizard blows up a far-away volcano as a demonstration, and removes the Kobolds from the mountains via fear.

you would need a volcano but also to find a way to make sure you will not kill far people by doing so(the smoke obscuring the sky and so on makes a volcano threatening in an enormous range and there will be nearly surely poor peasants who will die of starvation because of you and other things of this kind)

I think Lawful Evil is a bit closer to the mark, simply due to the deference to authority.

[ATHATH]

@noob: Why on Earth would he become CHAOTIC Evil?! He's not doing this because the Kobolds got in the way of his own ambitions; he's doing this because his leader/role model told him to, and because he thinks that it will make the population of Dwarfville proud of him.

[ATHATH]

@People who think that he should be LE: It's important to note that Mr. Wizard doesn't want to do this. He is only doing this because he thinks that the rest of the Dwarves want him to, and he believes that the opinions of the public are more important than his own opinions.

[atemu1234]

@People who think that he should be LE: It's important to note that Mr. Wizard doesn't want to do this. He is only doing this because he thinks that the rest of the Dwarves want him to, and he believes that the opinions of the public are more important than his own opinions.

Not wanting to do it but doing it anyway is an excuse for a teenager who started smoking. It is not an excuse for a high-level wizard who commits genocide.

[zergling.exe]

Not wanting to do it but doing it anyway is an excuse for a teenager who started smoking. It is not an excuse for a high-level wizard who commits genocide.

Personally, I would say they drop to the deepest part of LN. If they follow it up with more evil they also drop quite a ways into LE territory. But if they truly regret doing it, then they can at least attempt to make up for it and potentially return to LG.

There are few things that make you irredeemably evil, such things as destroying a soul. You could make an effort to right the wrongs by reviving as many of the kobolds as you could. Genocide would not be irredeemably evil since it is possible to reverse given enough effort.

[glitterbaby]

Personally, I would say they drop to the deepest part of LN. If they follow it up with more evil they also drop quite a ways into LE territory. But if they truly regret doing it, then they can at least attempt to make up for it and potentially return to LG.

There are few things that make you irredeemably evil, such things as destroying a soul. You could make an effort to right the wrongs by reviving as many of the kobolds as you could. Genocide would not be irredeemably evil since it is possible to reverse given enough effort.

Ooohhhhhh so we should stop using that soul-drinking sword? Oops.

[zergling.exe]

Ooohhhhhh so we should stop using that soul-drinking sword? Oops.

That would depend on how the souls are handled afterward. Frostmourne from Warcraft absorbs souls, but it contains them within itself (sort of like a super thinuan weapon).

If the souls go to Kas and empower him like normal dieties then it shouldn't be a problem.

[glitterbaby]

That would depend on how the souls are handled afterward. Frostmourne from Warcraft absorbs souls, but it contains them within itself (sort of like a super thinuan weapon).

If the souls go to Kas and empower him like normal dieties then it shouldn't be a problem.

Our best guess is that the souls are sent to Kas who probably breaks them down to power himself up. Basically all we have to go on is that every time we slay a powerful being and it is absorbed into the sword, Verix (the name of the crow thing that may or may not be another incarnation of Kas) gets an amount stronger depending on how powerful the soul was.

[Segev]

Again, if he's doing it because he thinks it's what others want him to do, why cover it up? If he thinks others want him to do it, he should be doing it openly, in front of them, because it's only for their approval that he's doing it.

[ATHATH]

Again, if he's doing it because he thinks it's what others want him to do, why cover it up? If he thinks others want him to do it, he should be doing it openly, in front of them, because it's only for their approval that he's doing it.
If he tells the public what he's going to do before the big reveal, his party members might try to stop him (*cough* Exalted *cough*) or talk him out of it. He needs to do this for his people, and he's not going to let individualistic things like friends stop him from serving Dwarfkind.

[Segev]

If he tells the public what he's going to do before the big reveal, his party members might try to stop him (*cough* Exalted *cough*) or talk him out of it. He needs to do this for his people, and he's not going to let individualistic things like friends stop him from serving Dwarfkind.

"Keep it a secret before it happens" is operational security, not a cover-up. A "cover-up" is making sure nobody ever knows you were behind it. And lest you think I am being pedantic, this also matches with how the OP described the situation: he's looking for ways to hide that he was responsible for it after the fact.

I'm trying to get at why he wants to do this, and what he expects to get from having done it if he hides his involvement.

[Nibbens]

To actually answer's the OPs question - I agree with what someone said earlier. Legend Lore will ping you every time, and to my knowledge, there's no way to stop it.

The only way to make sure no one knows about it is to make sure that no one knows that anything even happened to begin with (so they would never know they had a reason to cast legend lore in the first place). That's the kicker here. You must cover the knowledge so greatly that no being ever even knew that a volcano took place, or that a mass of kobolds were killed.

Doing this quietly (so the character would never be found out) would include the elimination of everyone who ever heard of you possessing the power to do it - not just those kobolds. And the quiet elimination of those as well... It turns into a huge domino effect at best.

I'm afraid he's in a bit of a bind here.

[ATHATH]

To actually answer's the OPs question - I agree with what someone said earlier. Legend Lore will ping you every time, and to my knowledge, there's no way to stop it.

The only way to make sure no one knows about it is to make sure that no one knows that anything even happened to begin with (so they would never know they had a reason to cast legend lore in the first place). That's the kicker here. You must cover the knowledge so greatly that no being ever even knew that a volcano took place, or that a mass of kobolds were killed.

Doing this quietly (so the character would never be found out) would include the elimination of everyone who ever heard of you possessing the power to do it - not just those kobolds. And the quiet elimination of those as well... It turns into a huge domino effect at best.

I'm afraid he's in a bit of a bind here.
I think that Vecna-Blooded counters Legend Lore handily, but it requires you to be Evil.

@Segev: I think glitterbaby wants Mr. Wizard to do this thinking that he'll be hailed as a hero, then realize what he's done and hide away in shame without a bunch of angry dragons and such trying to kill him while he thinks. The Vecna-Blooded template should do that if Mr. Wizard can get it after the eruption but before he accepts that he did was very wrong and that he needs to fix it and atone for it (thus losing the LE alignment that he temporarily had just before and after blowing up the volcanoes).

[Nibbens]

I think that Vecna-Blooded counters Legend Lore handily, but it requires you to be Evil.

Ah, okay. I'd never heard of Vecna-Blooded before. Thanks! lol.

[Coidzor]

If you're afraid of the dragons, don't do this at all, or start with them first to weaken them before you move in next door, before they have enough warning to be on guard.

Things are not going to just go hunky dory after a bunch of expansionist dwarfs move into the territory that kobolds were holding for the dragons as a buffer/preparation for draconic population expansion over time.

Especially with basically only chromatic dragons around.

The dragons will either want that territory and try to take it themselves, take umbrage at dwarf expansion and view it with hostility that eventually goes to war, or decide that the dwarfs are looking to take their territory too.


Not wanting to do it but doing it anyway is an excuse for a teenager who started smoking. It is not an excuse for a high-level wizard who commits genocide.

Quite.


Ooohhhhhh so we should stop using that soul-drinking sword? Oops.

Quite.


If the souls go to Kas and empower him like normal dieties then it shouldn't be a problem.

Other than empowering Kas. A canonically not nice guy.