Dimensional Dervish, worth it?

[Duke_Daisuke]

So I'm playing a magus(bladebound) in a new pathfinder campaign, and since it's my first time I'm a little confused about my build.

Does anybody have any advice on the dimensional dervish line of feats? (i.e. worth it, not, what might be better.)

[Extra Anchovies]

You'll probably want to skip it. They're only really worthwhile if you have an at-will teleportation effect that functions as dimension door. Otherwise you just won't be using DDoor often enough to make them worth the feat slots.

[Seward]

Dimensional maneuvers - useful if you have a lot of swift action or move action effects you like to cast after you've done a tactical dimension door (the most obvious being feather fall after doing something like d-dooring the party 500' up in the air).

Dimensional Assault - probably the least useful of the three for a feat cost, but if you have the kind of character who wants to ALSO hit the bad guy after d-dooring the party fighters to the enemy, it's ok. The reason I've given this feat chain some thought is that I have a character like that in Pathfinder Society, so I've worked out just what can be done in the level 9-11 range to get some play with it. Yes, it takes retraining 2 feats at level 9 and you don't get very many per day, but the character wants it more than other feats and options I could choose in that level range.

Dimensional Dervish - This is for the kind of spellcaster who likes polymorph spells like dragon form, but isn't sturdy enough to stand next to an enemy after unloading a full attack. It's a fairly steep cost in feats, but, for example, a dragon disciple4/sorcererX with 18 starting strength, 2 statbumps to strength, +4 for dragon disciple levels, +4 for bull strength, +4 for a polymorph spell like Monsterous Physique II and power attack from the DD2 or Sorcerer7 can pull together the whole feat chain by level 11 (does require retraining one feat using APG rules, otherwise you wait until level 13), with in theory 9 castings of dimension door a day (10 level 4-5 spell slots minus one used to cast the polymorph spell)

At level 11, your BAB is 6, attack mod is about 17 (-2 for power attack, +1 for amulet mighty fists+1, +1 for haste from boots of haste). If your form is size large, you will get at minimum 4 attacks (using the sorcerer claws+bite) doing 1d8+1d6 elemental +16(2claws) or +23 (bite+haste attack). You will probably also have some other natural attacks too (eg, the Vouivre from Bestiary 4 is a hybrid human female/dragon body with natural flight and two extra wing buffets which will weigh in at +12x2/d8+8, or the option of 2d6 claws/3d6 teeth if you don't want to burn a dragon disciple charge). The polymorph and haste are also useful because how far you can go is limited by your movement speed.

This is a fairly respectable full attack at level 11, on par with what a lot of other light infantry will be doing, and you can do it for 11 minutes on 2 spells cast. There are other spells that can boost attack mods or damage (or you could go with vicious on your amulet of mighty fists instead of +1, increasing damage by about 6 per swing, -1 to hit but taking 1d6 per attack yourself) but this is just to give the idea. The problem with this sort of character normally is:

1. You don't have pounce, so if the enemy didn't move next to your pointy teeth/claws/etc you don't get to shred them.

2. You have d6 hit dice on 7 of those levels, and with the need for strength and charisma, your dex is probably low and your con is probably only middling. So your AC and hitpoints isn't likely to be up to the job of duking it out with melee monsters. This is especially true if you are using the vicious enchantment and relying on temp hitpoints to soak most of the 1d6/swing damage you'll be taking.

For three feats, you get to do your full attack as often as boots of haste get to be useful and end the combat round somewher safe.. Which in most campaigns is "enough" on most days. After you level to 13, you will never run out of slots for dimension doors if you have a sorcerer chasse and your number of attacks, strength mod and power attack mod will only go up. So the dimensional dervish chain is a lot better in the 11-20 game than the 1-10 game. It's a late bloomer.

If you don't get a zillion attacks with respectable attack and damage mods, this feat chain isn't for you. It is also a lot better on a class with full sorcerer spellcasting (or possibly wizard with preferred spell or greater spell spec "dim door", or maybe a travel domain cleric variant who can somehow spontaneously cast domain spells). I don't think Magus is a good choice, especially since for short range attacks, Bladed Dash (a level 2 spell) can be combined with spell combat to essentially get a "pounce" within 30' that doesn't draw AOOs. (you cast the spell, move 30' with no aoo's, get an attack, then with spell combat you get a full attack with your weapon in addition)

[ghanjrho]

On a Magus, Dimensional Agility is actually really good. The rest of the chain, not so much. The trick is to remember that with Spell Combat, D-Agility effectively gives you pounce. Up to 800' range of pounce.
And with Bladebound, you have lots of money to spend on pearls of power, so you can afford a couple of 4ths to really get the most out of a D. Door prep.

[Sahleb]

I wouldn't go out of my way for it, honestly. Maybe the first feat, if you want to pseudo-pounce with Dimension Door as a fourth level spell. But honestly, if you don't need to jump that long, Bladed Dash(2nd) or Force Hook Charge(3rd) are better.

[Seward]

On a Magus, Dimensional Agility is good

Ok yeah. While Dimensional Charge is just Bladed Dash at the cost of 2 feats and a precious 4th level spell slot for a bit more range, Dimensional Agility increases your range by a lot, for the cost of your spellstrike attack.

Also it's just one feat, which is a lot easier to cram into a magus build. The only real problem is that D-door is a level 4 Magus spell, so your earliest entry is L10 (with retraining, 1/day) or 11 (competing with improved crit, as that's the first time you get 8 BAB, and only 2/day).

Probably dimensional agility is a solid level 13+ feat for a Magus if Bladed Dash isn't getting the job done. I do not agree about using Pearl of Power 4. At 16k gold pieces a pop, they're too pricey even at level 13, where you should be doing things like bumping your statboost items to level 4, or upgrading your weapon a point or two, or maxing out your cloak of resistance, all of which cost a similar amount. By the time a Pearl 4 is affordable, you have plenty of L4 spell slots, especially if you didn't trade out spell recall for something.

[Psyren]

For a magus I'd say no, it's not worth it - you can just use Force Hook Charge or something instead and save yourself bunch of feats.

For a monk though, it's quite nice, because you can combine Dimensional Dervish with flurry for tele-pounce. Bonus points if you're a Monk of the Mantis and go up to Dimensional Savant - now you can flank with yourself, activating your sneak attack on nearly any foe.

[StreamOfTheSky]

For a magus I'd say no, it's not worth it - you can just use Force Hook Charge or something instead and save yourself bunch of feats.

For a monk though, it's quite nice, because you can combine Dimensional Dervish with flurry for tele-pounce. Bonus points if you're a Monk of the Mantis and go up to Dimensional Savant - now you can flank with yourself, activating your sneak attack on nearly any foe.

For a Magus it's not worth it. Not just Force Hook Charge, there's also Bladed Dash (which is lower level and lets you attack at different points of your movement unlike FHC). Either, combined w/ spell combat, lets you move + full attack w/o spending any feats.

For a monk, it's too costly and too late. Monks can't start the feat chain until level 13, which means they don't get the feat you really want -- Dim Dervish -- until 17. As if that wasn't enough of a downer, their Abundant Step is just too costly to spam like that. I did a comparison a while ago that showed a Horizon Walker dip w/ a wisdom score 4 points below a monk had more uses per day of Dimensional feats AND can start on them at level 9. Monk is a really poor choice for the feat line, like it is for everything, sadly.

That's still not the best use, though. Earliest class-based entry I know of would be the classic Eldritch Knight Wiz/Fighter build if you held off on the Fighter dip and Eldritch Knight entry until after hitting wizard 7 -- so you obtain Dimension Door and can start on the feat chain. There might be racial or other entry methods that are even faster. Or perhaps Mystic Past Life cheese on a full caster (pluck it from Summoner's spell list where it's only 3rd level...ah, Summoners...).

They really should've done more to make the feat accessible and practical for monks. But they really should've done a lot of things for monk.

[Psyren]

Monks can't start the feat chain until level 13,

In case my reference to Monk of the Mantis wasn't enough of a giveaway, I was talking the Unchained Monk there, which can start the chain at level 9.

[Drelua]

Monks work a lot better with these feats if you get a Ring of Ki Mastery, it's a great item for any monk that uses any ki powers that cost more that 1 point. A Ki Mat can help too. It's just too bad you can't be an Unchained Hungry Ghost Monk, that character would hardly ever run out of ki.


In case my reference to Monk of the Mantis wasn't enough of a giveaway, I was talking the Unchained Monk there, which can start the chain at level 9.

Oh wow, I didn't even notice that there was any archetypes that work with the Unchained Monk, officially at least. Sweet!

[Psyren]

Monks work a lot better with these feats if you get a Ring of Ki Mastery, it's a great item for any monk that uses any ki powers that cost more that 1 point. A Ki Mat can help too. It's just too bad you can't be an Unchained Hungry Ghost Monk, that character would hardly ever run out of ki.

You actually don't need Hungry Ghost, just spam Ki Leech (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/ki-leech) for 0 ki. Also, check out The Master's Name (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=The%20Master%2 7s%20Name) for huge ki recovery.


Oh wow, I didn't even notice that there was any archetypes that work with the Unchained Monk, officially at least. Sweet!

There's also Serpent-Fire Adept. Not as strong but flight at level 4 is nothing to sneeze at either.