Optimizing the Underrated. Part 2. The jump spell

[PoeticDwarf]

I had time so I posted this earlier than I said.

I didn't get any suggestions, except armor of agaathys but I will do that later because it is not really underrated. I was looking around and thought about some stuff that was seen as pretty weak. The bladelock and beastmaster are tried to often, so I'm going to do those later if I already did the less common ones. Last time I did a weapon because people are barely trying to optimizing the net, so this time I want to try something again which is seen as very weak, but isn't optimized often.

So that’s why I picked the JUMP spell.

(Important note: I could do this totally wrong, I haven’t seen this combination before and it could even be that this is against the rules. Then I’m sorry, but without trying such a strange thing I wouldn’t be able to really use the jump spell without a druid combo)

Let's take a look at the spell, the only thing it does is making someone for one minute jump three times normal jump lenght. So, what you want to do with the spell, is using jump distance. You want to jump pretty high or far, because otherwise you aren't going to use the jump spell. So you want a high strength. With a strenght of, say, 18. You can make a long jump of 18ft and a high jump of 7ft. With the jump spell this becomes 54ft far and 21ft high.

Now, we don't try to jump as far as possible (then we would just becomes those spider druids, but that is another story). So we try to use the jump we can make. Furtherly, normally you can't jump further than your movement, but a tweet says that with magic (designed to jump far) you can get more distance.

So we go for an high str. score and now we can jump, and we need to use this as I already mentioned. This is pretty difficult, how could you use jump. It gives some mobility, but not more than a high speed or cunning action, so this is not what you want.

So you can jump far, normally this would be useful if you want to reach a certain spot, but why would you want that. Sometimes you do, but not enough to make jump useful. You can use it the other way around and use jump to spring up in the air and take fall damage or to spring into an hole or something, but again, this doesn't help.

Or does it, if you grapple an enemy and then jump (grapple rules don't say you can not do that) you can jump with an enemy into such a dangerous spot, but there isn't often one near. So logically, you want to jump up in the sky and then fall again. You and your enemy will take fall damage and fall prone.

Nobody wants fall damage, and the best way to grapple is raging. So you could go 2 warlock (casting jump at will, befor you go into a rage), 3 tiger totem barbarian (extra jump distance and rage), 1 rogue (expertise) and Monk X for slow fall, so you can ignore or reduce the fall damage without a spell (rage). If you can reduce the fall damage till it is 0, you won’t be prone, and your grappled enemy will fall prone.

So say an half-elf barb/rogue/warlock/monk. Your highest stats is str (16, becomes 18 and 20 later). You will without the jump spell jump 7ft if you already have 8str. There is nowhere what you should add first but in rage this would become 10ft. Then you multiple that by 3 (jump) and step of the wind makes it 60ft. If you grapple someone your speed is halved, so your jump is also halved (right?) giving you 30ft jump straight up in the air. A druid dip would help here but then you have the ruling about it all, I will just ignore druid for this.

You deal 3d6 fall damage on you and the enemy you are grappling. You want extra attack for a second grapple try / attack so you are monk level 5+ probably. You will ignore at least 20 fall damage so you won’t be hurt. You have now the classis grapple/shove combination without having to use an attack to shove, without having a fail chance (you can just jump) but with 3d6 extra damage on the enemy. You will with the 3d6 deal every damage for a monk. But with your massive athletics (expertise+rage) you will be better at the shove/grapple then an ordinary barbarian, or then a barbarian rogue because you won’t have to use your action.

A monk 5 / warlock 2 / rogue 1 / barbarian 3 (str based) will make normally 2 attacks a round and a grapple, sometimes a third attack. You will deal 1d6+1d8+8+4 (+1d6+4) damage normally (with rage damage and 18str). +4d6 from rogue and the fall damage, compare that to a full rogue with a rapier or a normal monk, then you will see you deal the same amount of damage. And you have disengage or dash as a bonus action if you want so every turn. You have great mobility and normal damage because of the jump spell, you have some nice amount of HP and decent AC. Most important, you will easily shove and grapple the enemy, giving the known advantage combo, and disadvantage for the enemy.

Because of the jump spel and some other combinations, you are a great character (and pretty mad but just go for 14 dex, 14 con (later 16) and 13 cha/wis. Because of half-elf you can start with 16str, 14 con, 13cha, 13 wis, 14 dex easily. You could even get an higher cha or wis if you really want so, or an higher con. The jump spell maybe doesn’t seem to add much, but without it you would low level not have the ability to use this combo, sometimes don’t even deal fall damage and you would deal less fall damage. The jump spelll is not the key word, but jumping is.

This combo was mainly helpful because you can still use nice attacks, deal extra damage and as I mentioned several times. The Shove Grapple Combination, which is really helpful. Again, I don't know if it would all work.

Again, all comments are now helpful and any stories are interesting. Suggestions can also help a lot.

Edit: someone helped me (see below). Warlock needs to be 9+ for the combo so just get druid or something. This will give you with 2 levels sone wild shape combo sometimes and (see Dire_Stirge's comment) another use. You will be jumping when you're raging. Half te fights probably. And after that you can try this in a lesser way

[Felvion]

I know the whole point was to utilize the jump spell but if the concept of the final build was to drop someone from as high as you can reach, wouldn't some flying speed help?

[Zalabim]

(Important note: I could do this totally wrong, I haven’t seen this combination before and it could even be that this is against the rules. Then I’m sorry, but without trying such a strange thing I wouldn’t be able to really use the jump spell without a druid combo)


So say an half-elf barb/rogue/warlock/monk. Your highest stats is str (16, becomes 18 and 20 later). You will without the jump spell jump 7ft if you already have 18str. There is nowhere what you should add first but in rage this would become 10ft. Then you multiple that by 3 (jump) and step of the wind makes it 60ft. If you grapple someone your speed is halved, so your jump is also halved (right?) giving you 30ft jump straight up in the air.

A monk 5 / warlock 2 / rogue 1 / barbarian 3 (str based) will make normally 2 attacks a round and a grapple, sometimes a third attack.

And you have disengage or dash as a bonus action if you want so every turn.

Because of the jump spel and some other combinations, you are a great character (and pretty mad but just go for 14 dex, 14 con (later 16) and 13 cha/wis. Because of half-elf you can start with 16str, 14 con, 13cha, 13 wis, 14 dex easily. You could even get an higher cha or wis if you really want so, or an higher con. The jump spell maybe doesn’t seem to add much, but without it you would low level not have the ability to use this combo, sometimes don’t even deal fall damage and you would deal less fall damage. The jump spelll is not the key word, but jumping is.


Just some corrections:

Standing Jumps are halved, so you only get, at 20 Str, (((((3 base+5 strength)/2 standing)+3 tiger rage)*3 Jump spell)*2 Step of the Wind)/2 (grappling) = 21 feet by the most favorable calculation. Getting a running start isn't out of the question, if a DM is willing to allow that while you're carrying an enemy.
Step of the Wind takes Ki and a bonus action. If you're using it, you only make one or two attacks. It's probably not worth using it.
A monk 5 / warlock 2 / rogue 1 / barbarian 3 can't cast Jump. The invocation takes level 9, and warlocks don't have the spell on their list.
16 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 13 wis, 13 cha is 29 points for a Half-Elf. You'd have to lose a point off Str, Dex, or Con for this.


In simple practical uses, jumping can be used to cross ground cluttering areas of difficult terrain without spending extra movement. The Jump spell lets you do that very well from a standing start. I think the DC 10 acrobatics to keep your footing when landing in difficult terrain highlights this use for jumping in general.

A barbarian who has had the Jump spell cast on them can power bomb people though. With 20 Str and the Tiger totem at level 3, (3*(3+((3+5)/2))/2 = 10.5, and Fast Movement at level 5 for 40' speed, you could do a 10' standing jump with a victim for 1d6 extra damage and prone then just stand up with your remaining movement.

[Grixis]

Forget the whole grappling-powerbomb thing and go with a leaping strike. If you as a player take damage for every 10 ft you fall there is an argument that a strike should include additional damage for every 10 ft your striking weapon travels downwards. Even without the jump spell, a player has let's say a 3ft-4ft arm length. As a DM, if that same player spent his movement and was able to achieve a 6ft-7ft vertical jump to then come downwards with his weapon on top of an enemy, I would add the 1d6 falling damage to the strike.

Now factoring in the jump spell? You could add some serious damage as it's 1d6 per 10 ft traveled. It's not OP as this probably would work for only one strike per round and it's in the realm of the realistic.

While D&D isn't meant to be super realistic, it tries to be a little more practical than Zangief's Super Final Atomic Buster.

[RickAllison]

Forget the whole grappling-powerbomb thing and go with a leaping strike. If you as a player take damage for every 10 ft you fall there is an argument that a strike should include additional damage for every 10 ft your striking weapon travels downwards. Even without the jump spell, a player has let's say a 3ft-4ft arm length. As a DM, if that same player spent his movement and was able to achieve a 6ft-7ft vertical jump to then come downwards with his weapon on top of an enemy, I would add the 1d6 falling damage to the strike.

Now factoring in the jump spell? You could add some serious damage as it's 1d6 per 10 ft traveled. It's not OP as this probably would work for only one strike per round and it's in the realm of the realistic.

While D&D isn't meant to be super realistic, it tries to be a little more practical than Zangief's Super Final Atomic Buster.

Why not just go full ham then? Jump, throw the target down so they suffer fall damage and are knocked prone, then get advantage to stab them with your fall damage as well.

[Inevitability]

I actually made a thread on this some time ago. Check it out. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?463107-S-P-I-D-E-R-Let-s-jump-really-well)

[PoeticDwarf]

Just some corrections:

Standing Jumps are halved, so you only get, at 20 Str, (((((3 base+5 strength)/2 standing)+3 tiger rage)*3 Jump spell)*2 Step of the Wind)/2 (grappling) = 21 feet by the most favorable calculation. Getting a running start isn't out of the question, if a DM is willing to allow that while you're carrying an enemy.
Step of the Wind takes Ki and a bonus action. If you're using it, you only make one or two attacks. It's probably not worth using it.
A monk 5 / warlock 2 / rogue 1 / barbarian 3 can't cast Jump. The invocation takes level 9, and warlocks don't have the spell on their list.
16 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 13 wis, 13 cha is 29 points for a Half-Elf. You'd have to lose a point off Str, Dex, or Con for this.


In simple practical uses, jumping can be used to cross ground cluttering areas of difficult terrain without spending extra movement. The Jump spell lets you do that very well from a standing start. I think the DC 10 acrobatics to keep your footing when landing in difficult terrain highlights this use for jumping in general.

A barbarian who has had the Jump spell cast on them can power bomb people though. With 20 Str and the Tiger totem at level 3, (3*(3+((3+5)/2))/2 = 10.5, and Fast Movement at level 5 for 40' speed, you could do a 10' standing jump with a victim for 1d6 extra damage and prone then just stand up with your remaining movement.
This is helpful. Knew some stuff was wrong

1. You can grapple, then walk and then jump so no problem. As I said, magical jump and speed works

2. I know that, about damage was something different becomes normally you can make 1/2 attacks sometimes more without grapple, is my English I'll change it

3. Oh, sorry for that mistake, then just go for a druid or something. I thought you could take it from warlock 1

4. Woops, my mistake, is because of my new system where it is a bit different on this

Problem with your idea, the barbarian will take damage and fall prone , and will need jump. Of course you can stand up but it won't help a lot. You will get the worst totem ability. For 20str you will also need a higher level and you won't really deal more damage. This is only better for some tanky builds

Thanks for your help

[PoeticDwarf]

I know the whole point was to utilize the jump spell but if the concept of the final build was to drop someone from as high as you can reach, wouldn't some flying speed help?

Nope, with fly speed you would
1. Have to drop someone, not prone and grapple
2. This works in one move, works better with speed (the tweet) etc. more damage than 30/50ft fly often

[PoeticDwarf]

Thanks for the input, knew this was not perfect at all. I think there would be even more wrong and this way it really works

[Drackolus]

Isn't grabbing somebody, jumping in the air, and falling with them... Slam $@#%ing dunking a fool?

[PoeticDwarf]

Isn't grabbing somebody, jumping in the air, and falling with them... Slam $@#%ing dunking a fool?

I don't see where you go with this comment, but yeah, sure

[Shining Wrath]

I think Jump is more likely to be an out-of-combat spell than an aid to combat. Something useful in a "Super Mario" type room where there are multiple pillars separated by 15' - and no room for a running start.

[Drackolus]

I don't see where you go with this comment, but yeah, sure

Simply pointing out the merits of such a build. Mainly, the massive amount of cool points that could be accrued.

[PoeticDwarf]

I think Jump is more likely to be an out-of-combat spell than an aid to combat. Something useful in a "Super Mario" type room where there are multiple pillars separated by 15' - and no room for a running start.

It is, but it is also seen as weak and often useless!


Simply pointing out the merits of such a build. Mainly, the massive amount of cool points that could be accrued.
Well I didn't see it becauae of my bad English but thanks

[SharkForce]

i wouldn't say it is useless. just less valuable than what you could do with the same spell slot and a different spell. it's handy when it comes up, but it generally doesn't come up *that* often, and when it is taking up precious spells prepared or worse, spells known, well... it just doesn't make the top 10% of spells.

[PoeticDwarf]

i wouldn't say it is useless. just less valuable than what you could do with the same spell slot and a different spell. it's handy when it comes up, but it generally doesn't come up *that* often, and when it is taking up precious spells prepared or worse, spells known, well... it just doesn't make the top 10% of spells.

Yeah, as I say, sometimes it can help but often useless, normally

[Once a Fool]

I think Jump is more likely to be an out-of-combat spell than an aid to combat. Something useful in a "Super Mario" type room where there are multiple pillars separated by 15' - and no room for a running start.

Funny. I've always thought its best use is to allow mobile types (particularly the monk) to easily jump over walls of opponents to shut down the leader/caster in the back rank. I could see it being very fun on a barbarian with Mage Slayer, too.

[SharkForce]

Yeah, as I say, sometimes it can help but often useless, normally

again, useless is not the right word. it isn't useless. it's just less useful than other options most of the time. i can swing a fight in a big way with burning hands or sleep. i can save my entire party from falling to their death with feather fall. i can block a dangerous attack with a nasty status condition using shield. i can use silent image to make illusions that are useful in a variety of ways. jump is useful too, for jumping to places i otherwise couldn't reach, but it generally isn't useful enough over the course of one minute to justify not preparing those or other spells instead. being able to jump from the ground to the top of a building is great, or jumping from treetop to treetop in an elven village, or to the far side of a river, or across a chasm... just... it isn't worth preparing unless i know that i'm going to need to do those things, *and* i know i won't have time to just work around not having jump prepared by using skill checks.

another part of the problem is that it is so short in duration... in D&D online, you'll almost get people yelling at you if you don't have a jump spell prepared (even on a sorcerer) sometimes, because the spell lasts 1 minute per level (long enough that you can have it up for a full "adventuring day" equivalent in DDO). and in the course of that much time, it is almost certain you'll be able to find a use for it, whether that be jumping across a pit trap in certain quests, or jumping over enemies, or reaching a high-up ledge, or whatever.

[PoeticDwarf]

again, useless is not the right word. it isn't useless. it's just less useful than other options most of the time. i can swing a fight in a big way with burning hands or sleep. i can save my entire party from falling to their death with feather fall. i can block a dangerous attack with a nasty status condition using shield. i can use silent image to make illusions that are useful in a variety of ways. jump is useful too, for jumping to places i otherwise couldn't reach, but it generally isn't useful enough over the course of one minute to justify not preparing those or other spells instead. being able to jump from the ground to the top of a building is great, or jumping from treetop to treetop in an elven village, or to the far side of a river, or across a chasm... just... it isn't worth preparing unless i know that i'm going to need to do those things, *and* i know i won't have time to just work around not having jump prepared by using skill checks.

another part of the problem is that it is so short in duration... in D&D online, you'll almost get people yelling at you if you don't have a jump spell prepared (even on a sorcerer) sometimes, because the spell lasts 1 minute per level (long enough that you can have it up for a full "adventuring day" equivalent in DDO). and in the course of that much time, it is almost certain you'll be able to find a use for it, whether that be jumping across a pit trap in certain quests, or jumping over enemies, or reaching a high-up ledge, or whatever.
Often useless, is this my English or does it just mean: In most situations it isn't helpful.

Because on most days it isn't good enough or just not good

[Segev]

Often useless, is this my English or does it just mean: In most situations it isn't helpful.

Because on most days it isn't good enough or just not good

I only am jumping in here because you indicated doubt as to your use of the word "useless" as it pertains to the English language; this is meant to be helpful, not insulting nor pedantic. I apologize if it comes off as either.

"Useless" means "without use," quite literally. There is no use for it. Like a lot of words, it CAN be an exaggeration, but unlike most, it actually doesn't get pulled in when it isn't very nearly exactly correct. Hedge words, like "almost" or "nearly," are a good choice to use with it, because they probably mean more what you were going for.

"Almost useless," is an expression of derision that can allow for corner cases, but implies that they're so rare or uninteresting as to be ignored. When somebody calls something "useless" in colloquial English, they nearly always actually mean it literally. For whatever reason, it doesn't get used hyperbolically very often. So if you describe something as "useless," people will actually tend to take it literally, not merely as a figure of speech nor exaggeration.

[SharkForce]

right. it is almost never truly useless, it is in fact frequently useful, just not useful *enough* to justify taking it over other options. if there was a class that just gained always-on jump without another cost (as in, not at the expense of an invocation like devils sight or agonizing blast), I expect you'd see that class making use of jump regularly.

[RickAllison]

right. it is almost never truly useless, it is in fact frequently useful, just not useful *enough* to justify taking it over other options. if there was a class that just gained always-on jump without another cost (as in, not at the expense of an invocation like devils sight or agonizing blast), I expect you'd see that class making use of jump regularly.

Still hoping for the Thri-kreen :smallwink:

[PoeticDwarf]

right. it is almost never truly useless, it is in fact frequently useful, just not useful *enough* to justify taking it over other options. if there was a class that just gained always-on jump without another cost (as in, not at the expense of an invocation like devils sight or agonizing blast), I expect you'd see that class making use of jump regularly.
I really don't think so. Often it is a waste of an action and once per day or less you need to jump fair or high

[PoeticDwarf]

I only am jumping in here because you indicated doubt as to your use of the word "useless" as it pertains to the English language; this is meant to be helpful, not insulting nor pedantic. I apologize if it comes off as either.

"Useless" means "without use," quite literally. There is no use for it. Like a lot of words, it CAN be an exaggeration, but unlike most, it actually doesn't get pulled in when it isn't very nearly exactly correct. Hedge words, like "almost" or "nearly," are a good choice to use with it, because they probably mean more what you were going for.

"Almost useless," is an expression of derision that can allow for corner cases, but implies that they're so rare or uninteresting as to be ignored. When somebody calls something "useless" in colloquial English, they nearly always actually mean it literally. For whatever reason, it doesn't get used hyperbolically very often. So if you describe something as "useless," people will actually tend to take it literally, not merely as a figure of speech nor exaggeration.
That's why in say often useless, and there is often no use for it; well, nearly useless would be better, but often useless is clear enough I hope:smallconfused::smallsmile:

[SharkForce]

I really don't think so. Often it is a waste of an action and once per day or less you need to jump fair or high

there are not a ton of situations where it is critical. there are plenty of situations where it is helpful... just not necessarily helpful enough to be worth the cost.

it isn't useless. it's almost always going to be something you *can* use in some way or other if you try. being able to jump up onto high terrain features, or across large gaps after jumping onto high terrain features, is something you should be able to find a use for if you really try, unless the battlefield primarily consists of a level plain with few obstacles (if there are obstacles, you can probably jump on top of one and then jump from obstacle to obstacle, which you can probably leverage in some way).

so, useless (or even "often useless") gives the wrong impression, imo. it is useful. if you could have it always active without other cost, you'd gladly take it, and you'd probably find ways to make use of it regularly. on a high strength character, it makes gaps of less than 60 feet into no gaps at all, and makes very few things too high to reach.

it isn't necessarily something I'd rather have than a variety of other effects I can gain with a level 1 spell slot, but it isn't hard to make it work for you if you put much effort into it at all.

[PoeticDwarf]

there are not a ton of situations where it is critical. there are plenty of situations where it is helpful... just not necessarily helpful enough to be worth the cost.

it isn't useless. it's almost always going to be something you *can* use in some way or other if you try. being able to jump up onto high terrain features, or across large gaps after jumping onto high terrain features, is something you should be able to find a use for if you really try, unless the battlefield primarily consists of a level plain with few obstacles (if there are obstacles, you can probably jump on top of one and then jump from obstacle to obstacle, which you can probably leverage in some way).

so, useless (or even "often useless") gives the wrong impression, imo. it is useful. if you could have it always active without other cost, you'd gladly take it, and you'd probably find ways to make use of it regularly. on a high strength character, it makes gaps of less than 60 feet into no gaps at all, and makes very few things too high to reach.

it isn't necessarily something I'd rather have than a variety of other effects I can gain with a level 1 spell slot, but it isn't hard to make it work for you if you put much effort into it at all.

I still don't really share your opinion but well, this thread is not about how useful this spell is. It is mainly about optimizing this, and everyone will agree, as you say yourself, that it is worse than most other spells.