Armoured Wizard

[Scublacus_Venn]

Hey, I'm going back to 3.5 and I've been playing just 5e since the playtest and I'm wondering something. Is there a case in which a Wizard can wear armour with no negatives to spellcasting? I was thinking like if you had Fighter as your first class, then multiclassed to Wizard you would keep armour proficiencies, but that may just be 5e logic.

[Keltest]

Well, yes and no. A wizard can wear any armor they are proficient with, same as with 5e. However, the chance of arcane spell failure is a property of the armor, not the wizard, and to my knowledge there aren't any feats or anything a wizard can take that negate that. I don't know of any armor that doesn't have any chance of failure by default, but you can always talk to your DM about it.

Furthermore, any spell that does not have a somatic component is not subject to the arcane spell failure chance, and there is metamagic you can use to remove the somatic components, if you have the spell slots for it.

[Necroticplague]

Hey, I'm going back to 3.5 and I've been playing just 5e since the playtest and I'm wondering something. Is there a case in which a Wizard can wear armour with no negatives to spellcasting? I was thinking like if you had Fighter as your first class, then multiclassed to Wizard you would keep armour proficiencies, but that may just be 5e logic.

yes, and yes. However, profeciency is not the only thing that makes it a bad idea to cast spells in armor. The ACP and ASF are also inhibiting factors. However, through use of enchantments like Twilight, special materials like Mythril, you can get armor and shields with 0 ACP and ASF, which can be worn by anyone without penalty, regardless of profecieny (since the only penalty for nonprofeciency is applying the ACP to more things, which, if the ACP is zero....).

[Inevitability]

5e does indeed handle things differently than 3.5. In 3.5, proficiency with armor doesn't let you cast spells in it.

There are several ways to cast spells in armor, however.

The simplest way is to play a class that can cast spells in armor as a class feature. The bard, beguiler, dread necromancer and duskblade are all examples. However, those classes will be less potent casters than a wizard.

You can also buy/make a suit of armor that stacks several enchantments and materials to reduce its ASF chance to 0%, but this is expensive and might be unavailable.

You could focus on spells with only verbal components, but you'd be limiting yourself considerably. The Runesmith dwarf PrC is interesting in that it basically removes the somatic component from all of your spells, so maybe check that out.

Finally, there is a fighter ACF that allows you to cast spells in armor, but it's pretty bad (because it encourages dual-classing fighter with a caster) and I wouldn't take it.

[Necroticplague]

Well, yes and no. A wizard can wear any armor they are proficient with, same as with 5e. However, the chance of arcane spell failure is a property of the armor, not the wizard, and to my knowledge there aren't any feats or anything a wizard can take that negate that.

If you dip into a class that can ignore ASF for light armor (bards, warmages, warlocks, I think the other fixed-list casters), you can take the Battlecaster feat to increase the range of armors that works with.

[Boci]

Hey, I'm going back to 3.5 and I've been playing just 5e since the playtest and I'm wondering something. Is there a case in which a Wizard can wear armour with no negatives to spellcasting? I was thinking like if you had Fighter as your first class, then multiclassed to Wizard you would keep armour proficiencies, but that may just be 5e logic.

That isn't just 5e logic, its works the same in 3.5, however in 3.5 proficiency does not remove the spell failure chance for arcane spells. Getting the ability to cast in light armour is fairy easy, but it will be harder if you want to use the more heavier varieties. For light:

Reduce the ASF chance to 0%. A +1 Feycraft Mithril Breastplate of Twilight should do it, I'll need to check the numbers, and the fighter class has a varient from Complete Mage to allow it to use light armour whilst casting.

[Grim Portent]

A one level dip in the Runesmith prestige class will allow you to cast as if all your spells had the Still Spell metamagic, which removes somatic components from your spells and negates arcane spell failure chance. The Still Spell metamagic feat will do that on its' own as well, but that's less convenient in my opinion. The only downside is you need to be a Dwarf to qualify normally, or have the GM make an alternate entry requirement for it for non-Dwarves (Which is actually mentioned as something that can be done in the PrC entry for Runesmith). Changelings with the Racial Emulation feat can also qualify for it by being in dwarf shape on level up.

There's also a few upgrades that can be applied to armour to reduce the arcane spell failure chance it gives, like being Feycraft (I think, my op-fu isn't strong, I may be thinking of other armour stuff.)

I think the Spellsword PrC reduces your arcane spell failure chance, but it's not that good as prestige classes go.



My preferred method would be to dip into Fighter for a level, take Wizard levels until level I could enter Runesmith (which I think has level 6 as the earliest entry point due to skill requirements), take one level of it and then go for other good wizard PrCs like Abjurant Champion. I'd probably do it as a Changeling or by working out some alternate requirements with my GM, but that's because I dislike Dwarves.

EDIT: Ninja'd four times. :smallsigh:

[Bobby Baratheon]

Reduce the ASF chance to 0%. A +1 Feycraft Mithril Breastplate of Twilight should do it, I'll need to check the numbers, and the fighter class has a varient from Complete Mage to allow it to use light armour whilst casting.

I believe there are also githyanki and caster versions, and it should be noted that feycraft (and githyanki and caster) are not magical enhancements, it's just the way the armor was made. If you somehow found a unseelie fey githyanki smith, you could theoretically get them to make you a version with both, which with mithril should get the job done.

[Keltest]

If you dip into a class that can ignore ASF for light armor (bards, warmages, warlocks, I think the other fixed-list casters), you can take the Battlecaster feat to increase the range of armors that works with.

Does that actually carry over to other classes? the D20srd seems to indicate it does not.

[Incanur]

There's also high one warrior wizard substitution levels. Wizard 4 reduces ASF by 20%. It requires 2 levels of paladin, so it's hella awkward.

[Andezzar]

If you dip into a class that can ignore ASF for light armor (bards, warmages, warlocks, I think the other fixed-list casters), you can take the Battlecaster feat to increase the range of armors that works with.Probably not worth it. There are already some pretty good armours that don't hinder casting or other things.

Probably not what you are looking for but (Greater) Luminous Armor gives you an armor bonus to AC and it looks like a glowing full plate. The best thing is that this "armor" does not have a maximum DEX bonus and hits melee attackers with a -4 attack penalty.

If you want special abilities as well as increased AC, take the cheapest masterwork armor you can find and enchant it with as many special abilities you can fit on it.

[Necroticplague]

Does that actually carry over to other classes? the D20srd seems to indicate it does not.

Let's see:

Warlock: No. The relevant section is just describing how Invocations work, and specifically says Invocations are free from ASF in lgiht armor. no dice here.
Dread Necromancer: Specifically says no.
Warmage: Specifically says No.
Beguiler: Same as the above two.
Hexblade: Ditto above 3.
Bard: Ditto above 4.
Duskblade: see above.

In summary, all the ones that I can find say "no". However, my knowledge isn't perfect, so there may be something that does.

[Melcar]

However... It is highly suboptimal, when armor is easy provided by a large list of spells, which carry no armor check penalty, weight, arcane spell failure. So in short, I would advise against this!

[Vizzerdrix]

+1 For mithril fey crafted twilight breastplate. The hard part is picking enchantments to stack on it as you advance.

[Hua]

What level are you looking at?
if your goal is just AC, you can do a number of situational things.
Mage armor or bracers of armor (armor bonus)
Shield (shield bonus)
shield of faith (deflection)
Protection from evil (deflection)
Greater magic armor (enhancement to armor, including cloth)
Greater magic armor for shield
Darkwood shield does not require proficiency.
Light Mitheral shield has no arcane failure check, and can be enchanted high. A heavy version would be only 5%.
Mitheral chain shirt would be 10% failure.

If your DM is open to it, every type of bonus can be done with other types that stack, such as insight, sacred, luck, morale, and so on.
It is much cheaper to stack lower pluses of different types rather than going high plus on a typical one.

[Thurbane]

Urban Savant plus Battle Caster feat will let a Wizard cast in medium armor (i.e. mithril full plate) - it won't get you armor proficiency though.

[Cerefel]

A spellthief dip with the Master Spellthief feat allows any arcane caster to ignore the ASF from light armor, and you can add battle caster onto that if you'd like to get medium armor.

[Sliver]

List of stuff (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=u61q7qvo94dkjotgmovkjj5gc6&topic=1412.0)

Bard, light armor
Fighter, Armored Mage alternative class feature, Complete Mage, light armor
Duskblade 1, 4, 7/20, Player's Handbook 2, casting in light armor, medium armor, then heavy shields respectively
Bladesinger 6, ecl 11, Complete Warrior, cast in light armor
Hexblade, Complete Warrior, casting in light armor
Spellsword 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, 10/15/20/25/30%
Rage Mage 2, ecl 7, Complete Warrior, -10% in light or medium armor
Spellthief, Complete Adventurer, casting in light armor
Fochlucan Lyrist 1, ecl 11, Complete Adventure, cast in light armor
Warmage 1, 8/20, Complete Arcane, casting in light then medium armor
Suel Arcanamach 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 7, Complete Arcane, 5% each time
Battlecaster, feat, Complete Arcane, allows casting in armor one category heavier (unclear whether you gain proficiency)
Geomancer 1, ecl ?, Complete Divine, see text

Dragon Devotee 3, ecl 8, Races of the Dragon, ignore ASF for 0-level and 1st-level spells
Arcane Heirophant 1, ecl 6, Races of the Wild, casting in non-metallic light or medium armor
Runesmith 1, ecl 6, Races of Stone, cast in any armor, see text
Knight of the Weave 2, ecl 7, Champions of Valor, cast in light armor, in medium at level 8
Pale Master 4, 8/10, ecl 9, Libris Mortis, -10% each for undead armor
Knight Phantom 1, ecl 6, Eberron: Five Nations, casting in light armor
Corrupt Avenger 1, ecl 7, Heroes of Horror, light armor
Silver Key 1, ecl 5, Eberron: Dragonmarked, light armor, abjuration only
Githyanky Battlecaster, feat, Monster Manual 4, light armor
Fatemaker 1, ecl 6, Planar Handbook, light
Ebonmar Infiltrator 1, ecl 6, Cityscape, cast in light armor, see text
Urban Savant 1, ecl 6, Cityscape, cast in light armor, see text
Knight of the Weave 2, ecl 7, FR: Champions of Valor, cast in light for all classes, medium at level 8

Mithril, armor material, PHB, -10%
Twilight, armor enhancement, Book of Exalted Deeds, -10%
Thistledown, armor add-on, Races of the Wild, -5%
Leafweave, armor add-on, Races of the Wild, -5%
Feycraft, armor template, DMG2, -5%
Githcraft, armor template, DMG2, -5%
Hellforged, armor template, DMG2, +5%
Blue Ice, component, Frostburn, cast [Cold] spells without ASF

[A.A.King]

My favourite idea for an Armoured Wizard is:
Human Wizard 5 / Knight Phantom 1
Feats:
1. Militia
H. Collegiate Wizard
3. Still Spell
6. Battlecaster

Combined with the Spell: "Golden Dragonmail"

- Still Spell is required to get into Knight Phantom
- Militia gives you the proficiencies to get into Knight Phantom
- Knight Phantom gives Casting in Light Armour
- Battlecaster improves Casting in Light Armour to Casting in Medium Armour
- Golden Dragonmail is a third level spell that creates a Medium Armour (Mithral Fullplate to be precise) and Armour Profinciency with that Armour.

Collegiate Wizard is optional though it is a great feat for wizards in most campaigns (depends on how much downtime you get to craft more spells). It is especially nice for this build though because to pull it off at level 6 two of your level 3 spells are spoken for (Phantom Steed and Golden Dragonmail) which, without this feat, would be all your level 3 spells known.

[Andezzar]

That is not quite true about the known spells for a wizard without the Collegiate Wizard feat. While you only get two 3rd level spells at level 5 for free, nothing (besides DM fiat) is preventing you from spending all your money on paper ink and scrolls to learn all sorts of other spells.

[LudicSavant]

Just get 0% ASF armor.

[A.A.King]

That is not quite true about the known spells for a wizard without the Collegiate Wizard feat. While you only get two 3rd level spells at level 5 for free, nothing is preventing you from spending all your money on paper ink and scrolls to learn all sorts of other spells.

Both the available downtime and available DM can prevent you. It all depends on the game ofcourse, which is why the feat is optional. I just felt it needed to be pointed put that, if you actually start a game at level 6 (when the full plate wizard comes online), you'll have used all your standard spells known. But of cours if you have the in-game time to learn more, the feat becomes much less useful (which does open up the build to non-humans)

[Zombimode]

My favourite idea for an Armoured Wizard is:
Human Wizard 5 / Knight Phantom 1
Feats:
1. Militia
H. Collegiate Wizard
3. Still Spell
6. Battlecaster

Eh, an Eberron PRC combined with a Forgotten Realms feat. Would score 0 points in "elegance" and not fly at my table.

[Boci]

Eh, an Eberron PRC combined with a Forgotten Realms feat. Would score 0 points in "elegance" and not fly at my table.

Oh come on. Just because "Militia" was a feat that happened to be printed in a FR book doesn't that world is the only thing with such a concept. Militia, and the benefits it gives (so both the fluff and the mechanics), are fairly generic, so its rather inelegant to pretend its some special ability just because of it was printed in a source specific splat.

[deathbymanga]

1 level dip in Fighter. You get the Armoured Wizard Variant Feature. You loose Heavy and Medium Armor, but can wear Light Armor with 0 Arcane Sell Failure. Then save up 3k gp and buy Sectioned Armor. It's Heavy Armor that can become Light Armor, giving you +3 Armor Bonus, +3 Dex Bonus, -2 Armor Penalty, 20% Arcane Spell Failure. There you go. a 16 AC Wizard with only 16 Dexterity.

[Andezzar]

Eh, an Eberron PRC combined with a Forgotten Realms feat. Would score 0 points in "elegance" and not fly at my table.Which feat is from Eberron? Both Collegiate Wizard and Battle Caster are from Complete Arcane and Still Spell is from the PHB.

[Thurbane]

Knight Phantom is an Eberron PrC.

[Boci]

Which feat is from Eberron? Both Collegiate Wizard and Battle Caster are from Complete Arcane and Still Spell is from the PHB.

They never said the feat was from Eberron:

"an Eberron PRC combined with a Forgotten Realms feat"

The militia feat is Forgotten Realms, the prestige class phantom knight is Eberron.

[Andezzar]

D'oh. I can't believe I missed that.

[Zombimode]

Oh come on. Just because "Militia" was a feat that happened to be printed in a FR book doesn't that world is the only thing with such a concept. Militia, and the benefits it gives (so both the fluff and the mechanics), are fairly generic, so its rather inelegant to pretend its some special ability just because of it was printed in a source specific splat.

While this is true, that is also not why I'm against mixing setting specific material. You can justify pretty much everything for most settings, especially grand fantasy settings like FR and Eberron. The point I'm concerned about is preserving and reinforcing setting identity. On a mechanical level action points, warforged, dragonmarks etc. serve as marks of distinction. I like the fact that I have different character building options for each setting. This includes big concepts like Dragonmarks but also little things like the Militia background. An easy way to obtain armor proficiencies can make certain characters possible that otherwise wouldn't and thus it shapes the mechanical identity and recognizability of FR characters.

[Boci]

An easy way to obtain armor proficiencies can make certain characters possible that otherwise wouldn't and thus it shapes the mechanical identity and recognizability of FR characters.

Really? How did the Militia feat shape FR as a setting? What do you have from the published setting that reflect the Militia feat being a special part of FR?

Eberron has just finished fighting a great war, so you may expect militia people to still be a thing there.

[Sahleb]

At high levels, you'll want to wear armor for the benefits of certain enchantments alone. At the very least, you'll want soulfire from book of exalted deeds, and probably heavy fortification. This is handily solved by +1 twilight mithral chain shirt, as the simplest option. Also, mithral bucklers are an almost free point of AC for a spellcaster.

Feycraft(-5%) Githcraft(-5%) Mithral(-10%) Full Plate(35%) +1 Twilight(-10%) with Thistledown padding(-5%) worn underneath has an ACP of 0%, but the two 'craft' are cheesy and contradictionary.

A single level of spellsword removes 10% ASF, and is relatively easy to qualify for, since you're probably taking a level for fighter or something for armor proficiencies.

[Andezzar]

Warforged are in MM3 and so independent from setting unless you are of the opinion that anything not in a "setting book" is Greyhawk only, which still would make them Eberron and Greyhawk. I'm also pretty sure that Action Points are not unique to Eberron either as they are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm).

Now dragonmarks and the need to specify a patron deity I get for setting identity, but a militia feat and a pretty generic Gish class (except for the fluff dictating that you must be part of a certain nation) are not what define the different settings

@Sahleb: Do you need the armour for AC? I guess you would only need it if you do not have access to (greater) Luminous Armor. If you do not need the AC, go with the cheapest 0% ASF armor you can find. They take armor special abilities just as well.

[deathbymanga]

I'm fairly certain that Forgotten Realms is the Standard Core Setting of D&D 3.5. The FR Supplements are just books that are exclusive to FR while the rest can be applied to any existing setting

[Andezzar]

Nope, Greyhawk is standard for 3.5 and its content can be applied to all other settings.
Whether you use the GREYHAWK® setting (the standard D&D campaign setting) or another published setting for the D&D game, such as the FORGOTTEN REALMS® Campaign Setting, it’s still your world

[Sahleb]

I'm fairly certain that Forgotten Realms is the Standard Core Setting of D&D 3.5. The FR Supplements are just books that are exclusive to FR while the rest can be applied to any existing setting

Greyhawk is the "standard" setting. The Greyhawk deities are the ones in the player's handbook, for example, and all the setting specific prestige classes in the non setting books are always from greyhawk. Thayan Knight, Red Wizards of Thay, Purple Dragon Knights, Suel Arcanamach, they're all from greyhawk.

[Andezzar]

The Red Wizard of Thay PrC is in the DMG, but the book explicitly mentions that the class belongs into the Forgotten Realms. Isn't the Suel Arcanamach from Complete Arcane?

[Sahleb]

The Red Wizard of Thay PrC is in the DMG, but the book explicitly mentions that the class belongs into the Forgotten Realms. Isn't the Suel Arcanamach from Complete Arcane?

Huh. I stand corrected. Both the Thayan classes, and the PDKs are from faerun.

Complete arcana is a non-setting specific book, yes.

[A.A.King]

1 level dip in Fighter. You get the Armoured Wizard Variant Feature. You loose Heavy and Medium Armor, but can wear Light Armor with 0 Arcane Sell Failure. Then save up 3k gp and buy Sectioned Armor. It's Heavy Armor that can become Light Armor, giving you +3 Armor Bonus, +3 Dex Bonus, -2 Armor Penalty, 20% Arcane Spell Failure. There you go. a 16 AC Wizard with only 16 Dexterity.

It's a nice idea, but the Armoured Mage variant only gives you casting in Light Armour for spells of Fighter Level +1. You'd have to take 6 levels of fighter to be able to cast the highest level spell you can then cast (which is 7th, assuming no other caster levels lost), makes it less of a simple dip and much less worth it.


Eh, an Eberron PRC combined with a Forgotten Realms feat. Would score 0 points in "elegance" and not fly at my table.

Every table plays by its own rules I suppose, so if you wouldn't allow it you don't have to allow it. Though I think giving it an automatic score of 0 in "elegance" is waaaay too harsh and definitetly a rulling I'd challenge if I ever competed in Iron Chef...
Anyway, most games I've played at don't really take place in either Eberron or the Forgotten Realms, just in a world of the DMs own creation so you can pick and mix from all settings at the DMs discretion. There are other ways to get casting in Full Plate but this is simply the quickest way (with the cheapest full plate at a grand total cost of 0 exlcuding the arcane focus).

I'm surprised you didn't deduct further points for my combining an Eberron PrC with a Forgotten Realms Spell (Golden Dragonmail)

[Dr. Azkur]

One of my players had a Wizard (with a dip in Fighter) that went around moving in Mountain Plate (+10 AC +0 Max Dex Bonus -9 Check Penalty 60% Arcane Spell Failure Chance).

He picked Arcane Thesis and only ever casted Magic Missile with a bunch of metamagics.


Yeah.

[Incanur]

One of my players had a Wizard (with a dip in Fighter) that went around moving in Mountain Plate (+10 AC +0 Max Dex Bonus -9 Check Penalty 60% Arcane Spell Failure Chance).

He picked Arcane Thesis and only ever casted Magic Missile with a bunch of metamagics.

:smalleek:

I'm assuming/hoping Still Spell was one of those metamagics.

[Melcar]

Eh, an Eberron PRC combined with a Forgotten Realms feat. Would score 0 points in "elegance" and not fly at my table.

So you would not use PHB feats in Forgotten Realms since they actually pertain to Greyhawk? Come on! As long as the feats require or give generic benefits they are all to be used interchangeably!

[Dr. Azkur]

:smalleek:

I'm assuming/hoping Still Spell was one of those metamagics.

Hahah Yes of course. That was the whole point of it.