Hucking darts - but why?

[Drackolus]

While perusing weapon rules I made the observation that darts (along with nets) are the only ranged weapons with the "thrown" property, which allows one to use strength. The only significance I can find is that it allows you to use Archery with strength, as it will not work with melee thrown weapons. Other than the potential for a dex- dumping true ranged attack with heavy armor AND archery, however, I can't really find too many ways to use this effectively. I was hoping barbarians could get something, but all their abilities specify melee attacks, so that's a no-go. Is there any rea way to abuse a strength-using true ranged weapon?

Side note, while finesse would allow the normally-dex weapon to also use strength oddly enough, the thrown property also covers that, so as far as I can tell it's redundant. Am I missing something? Technically speaking, a bash with a crossbow would use dexterity since it's still a ranged weapon, even as an improvised weapon, but I feel any reasonable dm would make you use strength, so the point is moot. Still, I suppose it's written specifically.

[mer.c]

Side note, while finesse would allow the normally-dex weapon to also use strength oddly enough, the thrown property also covers that, so as far as I can tell it's redundant. Am I missing something? Technically speaking, a bash with a crossbow would use dexterity since it's still a ranged weapon, even as an improvised weapon, but I feel any reasonable dm would make you use strength, so the point is moot. Still, I suppose it's written specifically.

Finesse on darts may be one of those preemptive rulings by WotC, for the same reason that Monk unarmed strikes are specifically ruled not to be Finesse. The thought is if they make a rule sometime down the line that applies to finesse weapons, it will affect Darts (which makes sense) but Monks' unarmed strikes, which may not make sense depending on the nature of the rule.

That's my guess, anyways.

[greenstone]

My question is the other way around - why would you ever use a dagger? A dart does the same damage and has the same range but costs 2.5% and weighs 25% that of a dagger.

As an aside, should the cost of a dart actually be 5 SP? A "dart" in D&D is nothing like the things we throw at boards in the pub; it is more like a lawn dart or a throwing knife.
I saw medieval darts on the Royal Armouries in Leeds that were as long as my forearm!

[RickAllison]

My question is the other way around - why would you ever use a dagger? A dart does the same damage and has the same range but costs 2.5% and weighs 25% that of a dagger.

As an aside, should the cost of a dart actually be 5 SP? A "dart" in D&D is nothing like the things we throw at boards in the pub; it is more like a lawn dart or a throwing knife.
I saw medieval darts on the Royal Armouries in Leeds that were as long as my forearm!

One use I can think of off the top of my head is for monks. They can't use Martial Arts damage dice with darts but they can do it with thrown daggers. Lets them have some ranged attacks while also using Flurry of Blows.

[indemnity]

My question is the other way around - why would you ever use a dagger?

Two weapon fighting.

Out of combat actions. DM can rule a certain actions require specific weapons, perhaps cutting a rope, dining utensil, polished blade acting as a mirror, minimum weight to set off a trap.

[Drackolus]

Finesse on darts may be one of those preemptive rulings by WotC, for the same reason that Monk unarmed strikes are specifically ruled not to be Finesse. The thought is if they make a rule sometime down the line that applies to finesse weapons, it will affect Darts (which makes sense) but Monks' unarmed strikes, which may not make sense depending on the nature of the rule.

That's my guess, anyways.

I'd actually assume it was more of an oversight. It's not odd to write the main body of a work, write the introduction (where the thrown and ranged weapon rules actually are, on page 14) and then edit the main body. They may have added the finesse before they wrote the ranged section of the introduction where they say all thrown weapons can use either stat. Also, monks not specifically using finesse means their attacks don't worth with sneak attack, which is directly relevant in the book. But I understand what you're saying.


My question is the other way around - why would you ever use a dagger? A dart does the same damage and has the same range but costs 2.5% and weighs 25% that of a dagger.

As an aside, should the cost of a dart actually be 5 SP? A "dart" in D&D is nothing like the things we throw at boards in the pub; it is more like a lawn dart or a throwing knife.
I saw medieval darts on the Royal Armouries in Leeds that were as long as my forearm!

You can also use a dagger as a melee weapon with proficiency without using tavern brawler, for whatever that's useful for. Also, if you're a draconic sorcerer and you want that single-class gish and a dagger is only marginally worse than a rapier and therefor not worth trying to get the proficiency. You're right though that the difference is marginal.

EDIT:

Two weapon fighting.

Out of combat actions. DM can rule a certain actions require specific weapons, perhaps cutting a rope, dining utensil, polished blade acting as a mirror, minimum weight to set off a trap.

that too.

[VirusLord]

Er... Correct me if I'm wrong, but... don't thrown weapons only use your Strength stat if they're thrown MELEE weapons?


Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you
can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the
weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability
modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you
would use for a melee attack with the w eapon. For
example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength,
but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your
Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the
finesse property.

Unless I missed a ruling somewhere else that obviates this or I'm misinterpreting, you shouldn't be able to use your Strength mod for nets, since they are Ranged weapons. However, you can use your Strength or Dexterity stats for darts, because they are finesse weapons.

[Once a Fool]

Er... Correct me if I'm wrong, but... don't thrown weapons only use your Strength stat if they're thrown MELEE weapons?



Unless I missed a ruling somewhere else that obviates this or I'm misinterpreting, you shouldn't be able to use your Strength mod for nets, since they are Ranged weapons. However, you can use your Strength or Dexterity stats for darts, because they are finesse weapons.

Precisely this. This is an example of the rules both working as (presumably) intended and doing exactly what they say--but still somehow being incredibly obscure. 5e is kind of funny that way.

[RickAllison]

Precisely this. This is an example of the rules both working as (presumably) intended and doing exactly what they say--but still somehow being incredibly obscure. 5e is kind of funny that way.

The more you know!

[Drackolus]

If the weapon is a melee weapon,

I went through all the effort of finding the actual book passage for thrown and ranged weapons and still managed to miss that crucial point. Good find - the finesse is actually a necessity.

I suppose a full plate ranged weapon str-only character is at least interesting... for what it's worth. Still not sure what to do with it. Once you hit multiattack, you have to make two draws per turn if I'm not mistaken, while only getting one object interaction. Thief can give you a bonus action weapon draw, letting you have two attacks at the cost of a bonus action and action, and only doing 1d4+str. You'd still get your shield though, so 20 ac and a +2 to hit without needing a single point in dex. Still, not a solid character idea. Is there any way to draw thrown weapons as fast as you can multiattack? Or some spell you can abuse? If you start with fighter you could be a ranger, get the heavy armor prof. from starting 1st level fighter, then get some combination of archery, close quarters shooter, and defense. Use your ranger abilities to lay a little damage out (colossus slayer comes to mind). You could also just do fighter 1/rogue x and be a true strength ranged rogue with archery. All heavy armor screws is stealth, and you can be a rogue without stealth. And, if you really want, putting expertise in stealth and hitting your 11th rogue level (12th character level in this case) means your disadvantage is basically nonexistant. Sneak in full plate anyway. Marginally better than using daggers, which don't get to use archery OR dueling (when thrown).

[greenstone]

Er... Correct me if I'm wrong, but... don't thrown weapons only use your Strength stat if they're thrown MELEE weapons?

Player's Basic Rules 0.3, page 9.
Chapter 1: Step-by-Step Characters, Part 5: Choose Equipment, Weapons


• For attacks with melee weapons, use your Strength
modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that
has the finesse property, such as a rapier, can use your
Dexterity modifier instead.
• For attacks with ranged weapons, use your Dexterity
modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that
has the thrown property, such as a handaxe, can use
your Strength modifier instead.

[Laserlight]

Still not sure what to do with it. Once you hit multiattack, you have to make two draws per turn if I'm not mistaken, while only getting one object interaction.


Start with several darts in your left hand.

Or start with one dart in hand. Throw it, draw your sword, move, attack. Think of a Roman with pilum, or Frankish warrior with francisca throwing axe.

(For those who are wondering what these darts look like: see plumbatae or martiobarbuli.)

[JackPhoenix]

Player's Basic Rules 0.3, page 9.
Chapter 1: Step-by-Step Characters, Part 5: Choose Equipment, Weapons

Which is funny, because the example used (handaxe) isn't a ranged weapon.

[Drackolus]

As I was falling asleep, I figured it out! A fighter 1/rogue x can get shield master and select the close-quarters archery style and knock people down to get advantage at 5 feet - and they can throw darts and ignore cover. They also can shove someone next to an ally and then huck a dart for sneak attack. The fact that you're using a d4 is not important when you have sneak attack.

[ericgrau]

Every melee should have a backup ranged weapon for times when you simply can't melee well, class features or not. Which means the weapon should key off of strength. Javelins seem to be the best choice there. But javelins weigh 2 lb. each and darts weigh 1/4 lb. each. Plus even if you have the carrying capacity, loading up on 20 javelins strains believability and might get the DM to flat out say "no".

My own house rule gives you a limit of 8 one handed sheathed weapons or the equivalent and nigh-unlimited light weapons (within reason and carrying capacity) or the equivalent. Two handed count as 2, plus backpacks & etc. also count towards the limit.

[JeffreyGator]

My own house rule gives you a limit of 8 one handed sheathed weapons or the equivalent and nigh-unlimited light weapons (within reason and carrying capacity) or the equivalent. Two handed count as 2, plus backpacks & etc. also count towards the limit.

Even with this very reasonable rule you approach golf bag syndrome. I had a 2.7ish character that kept acquiring magic short swords that had various uses. She had 5 towards the end of the campaign.

[JumboWheat01]

Even with this very reasonable rule you approach golf bag syndrome. I had a 2.7ish character that kept acquiring magic short swords that had various uses. She had 5 towards the end of the campaign.

I've always tried to limit my warrior characters as to what weapons they have on hand. Usually it's one slashing, one piercing and one bludgeoning weapon. Often times one of those is a throwing weapon, but usually, since I play a halfling quite frequently, I am the thrown weapon.

[Drackolus]

Every melee should have a backup ranged weapon for times when you simply can't melee well, class features or not. Which means the weapon should key off of strength. Javelins seem to be the best choice there. But javelins weigh 2 lb. each and darts weigh 1/4 lb. each. Plus even if you have the carrying capacity, loading up on 20 javelins strains believability and might get the DM to flat out say "no".

My own house rule gives you a limit of 8 one handed sheathed weapons or the equivalent and nigh-unlimited light weapons (within reason and carrying capacity) or the equivalent. Two handed count as 2, plus backpacks & etc. also count towards the limit.

The darts will serve in a pinch, but the only real benefit I see is they get the +2 from archery where as javelins, handaxes, and daggers cannot because they're still melee weapons. Close quarters shooter, however, has no such restriction. It works for all ranged attacks.

[ericgrau]

The darts will serve in a pinch, but the only real benefit I see is they get the +2 from archery where as javelins, handaxes, and daggers cannot because they're still melee weapons. Close quarters shooter, however, has no such restriction. It works for all ranged attacks.

Strangely enough that only seems like trap bait. An archer should not use darts because a bow is better.

For a melee build javelins, hand-axes, spears and tridents have the best damage and range but weigh 2-4 lbs. each and except maybe for hand-axes are a bit unwieldly. Darts and daggers are tied for 2nd on damage and both are small, but darts weigh 1/4 lb vs a dagger's 1 lb.

I think every single melee character should carry a small number of 1d6 thrown weapons and several darts. That gives a rather huge role to darts. Especially on a backup tactic you might only set aside space for 1-2 1d6 weapons. If you don't see the need for a backup ranged weapon, then your DM is coddling you. Or you must have quite an amazing way to make sure your melee always works.

[eastmabl]

Smaller objects are easier to conceal on one's person.

I may be able to walk into the king's court with five javelins, but I might be able to hide two daggers or ten darts.

[JumboWheat01]

Smaller objects are easier to conceal on one's person.

I may be able to walk into the king's court with five javelins, but I might be able to hide two daggers or ten darts.

Your DM needs more paranoid royal guards. Though I suppose it's my fault that I have a good size crossbow strapped to my rogue's back while he goes anywhere.

[eastmabl]

Your DM needs more paranoid royal guards. Though I suppose it's my fault that I have a good size crossbow strapped to my rogue's back while he goes anywhere.

I'm usually the DM, so I guess that I should employ more paranoid palace guards.

Absent a legitimate rumor of assassination, my palaces operate under the general rule of thumb is that you don't openly carry weapons in court without permission. Thus, the heavy crossbow or great axe need to stay at home. However, if you can hide a weapon, you probably can get it into the palace.

Additionally, while my guards aren't so paranoid, the king himself usually is, and has taken some magical step to avoid assassination. A king doesn't pay for a court mage not to use him.

[ericgrau]

Your DM needs more paranoid royal guards. Though I suppose it's my fault that I have a good size crossbow strapped to my rogue's back while he goes anywhere.

You could also hide the darts really well, especially if you have baggy clothing or hidden padded pouches.

In 3.5e that became a search check with a +4 bonus opposed by a sleight of hand check, with only small objects such as light weapons allowed. With a +2 to daggers and a +4 to tiny things. No bonus to darts, but at least they're light. 5e should probably use perception opposed by sleight of hand, with automatic advantage to the searcher unless the object is tiny.

[JumboWheat01]

You could also hide the darts really well, especially if you have baggy clothing or hidden padded pouches.

In 3.5e that became a search check with a +4 bonus opposed by a sleight of hand check, with only small objects such as light weapons allowed. With a +2 to daggers and a +4 to tiny things. No bonus to darts, but at least they're light. 5e should probably use perception opposed by sleight of hand, with automatic advantage to the searcher unless the object is tiny.

Unfortunately my little rogue never was good at hiding things (except himself.) FINDING things, he's good at, with expertise in both Investigation and Perception, good points for ferreting out criminals and the like, but hiding things, no, horrible at it. Can't even keep his trap shut when he sees something that he believes needs pointing out.

I've been left behind at the inn so many times while the rest of my party visits anyone of importance after the wig incident.

[djreynolds]

So nets and dart both can use the archery style, but darts do not get the monk weapon damage bonus

Daggers get the unarmed monk bonus even if thrown?

Do melee thrown weapons allow the paladin to smite, like a javelin or spear?

[RickAllison]

So nets and dart both can use the archery style, but darts do not get the monk weapon damage bonus

Daggers get the unarmed monk bonus even if thrown?

Do melee thrown weapons allow the paladin to smite, like a javelin or spear?

Yes, daggers get monk damage. They are simple melee weapons that just happen to be thrown, so they are monk weapons. Paladins cannot Divine Smite with thrown weapons because they are ranged attacks and it specifically calls out melee weapon attacks.

[djreynolds]

Yes, daggers get monk damage. They are simple melee weapons that just happen to be thrown, so they are monk weapons. Paladins cannot Divine Smite with thrown weapons because they are ranged attacks and it specifically calls out melee weapon attacks.

Well that sucks. What about barbarian and rage and spears and hand axes? Same deal. Not that its a big deal.

[RickAllison]

Well that sucks. What about barbarian and rage and spears and hand axes? Same deal. Not that its a big deal.

They don't get the rage damage, Frenzy BA, Brutal Critical, Retailiation, or the L14 Wolf ability with thrown weapons. Of course, barbarians probably prefer to smack around enemies rather than worrying about range...

[djreynolds]

They don't get the rage damage, Frenzy BA, Brutal Critical, Retailiation, or the L14 Wolf ability with thrown weapons. Of course, barbarians probably prefer to smack around enemies rather than worrying about range...

Probably done to keep some separation between things. It keeps archers and ranger viable.

[RickAllison]

Probably done to keep some separation between things. It keeps archers and ranger viable.

Oh archers were viable before they got Sharpshooter (though Rangers did need some love...), but it also makes thematic sense. Now, if a barb I DMed for got enraged and chucked his greataxe at the enemy, I'd be happy to give him his bonuses. Otherwise, it might be me next!

[djreynolds]

Oh archers were viable before they got Sharpshooter (though Rangers did need some love...), but it also makes thematic sense. Now, if a barb I DMed for got enraged and chucked his greataxe at the enemy, I'd be happy to give him his bonuses. Otherwise, it might be me next!

Yeah coolness is its own thing. Sword chuck at disadvantage, and he makes it, I let that barbarian auto-crit, just cause it was cool.

And you know what, every monk who I have played with, is always a wood elf and uses a bow. Never ever see them throwing hand axes or daggers. I think players see the + in dex and wis, and just grab the long bow to go with.

And then, why can't I use my bow as a staff, she did it in Avatar and it was fine. Okay you win, 300gp, staff-bow and its yours

[RickAllison]

Sword chuck

You brought this upon yourself:

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3o85y3yGJ1qarkg3o1_400.jpg

[djreynolds]

You brought this upon yourself:

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3o85y3yGJ1qarkg3o1_400.jpg

I enjoy his postings very animated stuff.

But that's what I like about 5E, you think of something, like throwing a great axe, okay at disadvantage. There's no calculus involved. That's the what's great about 5E cause even with advantage there is no certainty. I would definitely throw in an auto-crit if that great axe landed, its like shooting a basketball from half-court.

[Kurt Kurageous]

however, I can't really find too many ways to use this effectively.

Darts are almost a legacy weapon, the only ranged weapon a wizard from 1e could use (other than a thrown dagger).

Darts are a pretty direct way of delivering poison.

[Tanarii]

Yes, daggers get monk damage. They are simple melee weapons that just happen to be thrown, so they are monk weapons.
Afb, but I thought Monks specifically had to make a melee attack for martial arts to apply?

[RickAllison]

Afb, but I thought Monks specifically had to make a melee attack for martial arts to apply?

Nope. Instead, the restrictions are on using unarmed strikes or monk weapons; what you are thinking of is that monk weapons are melee weapons (daggers and such are just melee weapons that can be thrown).

[Tanarii]

Right you are. Just looked it up. I was thinking about monk weapons being shortswords and simple melee weapons without the two-handed or heavy property.

Seems like a reasonable house-rule would be classifying darts as monk weapons too, since there's no restriction on using a thrown handaxe, dagger, light hammer, javelin or spear as a monk weapon. What would be the potential combinations that opens up (MC or otherwise), other than opening up Archery Fighting Style?

Edit: as a side note, the Thrown property primarily seems to be there to designate that's how the ranged attack is made. All weapons with ranged increments are either assigned Thrown or Ammunition.