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kemmotar
2007-06-19, 06:37 PM
There has been alot of discussion about why each class is better or worse, overpowered and underpowered so, before i even state what the thread is about let's just leave the X class does it better or X class is underpowered. The question i'd like answered is how you can make the monk better.

I'm currently using a feral goliath monk. In the current level he is monk7/tatooed monk1/swordsage1. The tatoo i selected for tatooed monk was ocean(no need to sleep,eat or drink) not very powerful but funny flavorwise, plus i'm the lookout all night. With a blindfold of true darkness(arms and equipment guide/magic items compendium) he's the perfect guard. High wis means good spot and listen checks, blindfold of true darkness gives gives blindsight 60 feet plus he never needs to sleep.

Next level i'm taking the level2 swordsage feature that adds wis to ac, thus 2xwis to ac for me. I also have improved trip and knockdown, so free trip attempts at each hit. I'm large and i have impr trip so +8 without even adding strength. Feral and goliath add +8 to str, +4 to con and +2 wis. +2 from levels gives me 30 str. Thus +18 to my trip attempt. Leap attack and mantis leap triple my str damage for a charge(or anytime that i have 10 ft so i can jump). Superior unarmed strike gives +4 to my monk levels for unarmed damage and a monk's belt can give a further +4 thus giving the equivalent of a 16th level monk of large size for 3d8 damage. After the permanent enlarge person it goes up to 4d8 per hit.

Also sudden recovery and vital recovery provide extra hp with two swift actions(when using counters and boosts), coupled with fast healing it makes for a good heal rate. This and the high AC, even flatfooted makes it difficult to get hit and when he gets hit he can easily heal himself. Thus he can easily tank stuff with few problems.

Also readying and attack near a caster or having mage slayer and hitting him when he casts a spell and tripping him(thank you knockdown) raises the DC far more than usual and i dont think a wizard with both low str and dex would beat a impr trip and large. Not to mention huge if he gets permanent enlarge. for a whopping +22 to trip attempts plus free trips everytime he deals more than 10 damage:smallbiggrin:

With unarmed strikes and all that i think he is the PC to never get surprised and be unable to fight at any time. He is, i think, the perfect guard. Hold stuff off until everyone wakes up, or be the first to charge into battle before the baddies can get away etc...

this particular monk has +6 natural armor(feral), +2 (dex), +4(bracers of armor), +2 (deflection from a ring), +6 AC(wis), +1 (unarmored ac bonus) giving him 31 AC and in the next level 37. With stance of clarity (+2 AC against a single enemy) he gets to 39 with a touch AC 33 and flatfooted AC 37...i'd like to see a wizard or a rogue hit that often...Plus with a +4 dex(doesn't have an item for that yet) and a +4 wis(instead of +2) AC goes up to 42...and that's just ECL11...

All this could have been better, i'm not optimizing him...most of it is just me having fun with a character and trying to make it work after i take the level...hehe...But what can someone do with a monk to make him a valuable addition to a party? I don't think pure monk levels would be anyone's choice of build so PrCs would be nice i guess...Also magic items that would be useful?etherealness?flying definately...!Any other ideas or nice feat builds?

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-19, 06:54 PM
You seem pretty cracked out already. Feral? goliath? multiclass monk/swordsage to get double wisdom to AC- this probably doesn't work btw. Check the bonus type on the swordsage. I'm guessing its probably insight.

NEO|Phyte
2007-06-19, 07:03 PM
Eh, Goliath is a bit of a waste for a monk, Powerful Build does not apply to unarmed strikes. Still helps for trips and such though.

:edit: the Feral template also makes you ineligable for Enlarge Person, as you become a monstrous humanoid.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-19, 07:26 PM
You could fund the wizard to research the relatively inexpensive enlarge feral spell.

Just giving them Adept spellcasting with a single domain which already has the mechanics in place for a +1 LA which can be bought down at level 3. Now there is a little more incentive to play a monk past level 2 if you aren't a rogue or already have evasion and the adept spellcasting synergizes with the Monk wisdom ability.

Throw in 10 alternating levels of Wujen spellcasting ability at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20 with spellcasting at half caster level like a Paladin but require all the Wujen class Taboos at levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 a level 20 monk would cast like a level 10 wujen and a little harder on the Vow of Poverty type monks needing to spend feats on spell mastery.

Keep using The Book of 9 Swords it has lots of neat stuff and there are some incredible builds over at Wizards.

The Tattooed Monk is good.

Blend in the Enlightened Fist PRC with 5 of the levels using the Abjurant Champion PRC out of the 10 (alternating levels) for the PRC, throw in 3 levels of rogue and a level of ninja and take the ascetic rogue feat that's +3D6 sneak attack in conjuntion with monk attacks which could be psionically enhanced and a few levels to play with.

kemmotar
2007-06-19, 07:36 PM
double wisdom to AC- this probably doesn't work btw. Check the bonus type on the swordsage. I'm guessing its probably insight.

I thought so too at first but i looked at the description for swordsage which says nothing about the type of the bonus. It just says "you can add your wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class" thus its an unnamed bonus:smallbiggrin:

Also "powerful build"description says that the goliath can use weapons one size larger than him without any penalty. Thus he is treated as a large creature (if he is medium) to find what type of weapons he can wield, thus it makes sense that he should get damage for large creatures...there is nothing against it in either the description of powerful build or unarmed strike. Its also logical, since he can wield larger weapons he is larger than medium but not large enough to be large. But because he is built very powerful he counts as a large creature and can wield a large greatsword with no problems, thus his fists, feet, nose or anything he can unarmed strike with is larger than medium and would therefore cause more damage than a medium creature...

Goliath bard though would be interesting for flavor...he can boast about his "size" since he counts as large:smallwink: too bad my goliath is a monklike hermit:smallfrown:

NEO|Phyte
2007-06-19, 07:41 PM
Also "powerful build"description says that the goliath can use weapons one size larger than him without any penalty. Thus he is treated as a large creature (if he is medium) to find what type of weapons he can wield, thus it makes sense that he should get damage for large creatures...there is nothing against it in either the description of powerful build or unarmed strike. Its also logical, since he can wield larger weapons he is larger than medium but not large enough to be large. But because he is built very powerful he counts as a large creature and can wield a large greatsword with no problems, thus his fists, feet, nose or anything he can unarmed strike with is larger than medium and would therefore cause more damage than a medium creature...
You can use weapons sized for a creature one size category larger than you without penalty, but you are still a Medium creature, giving you a Medium-sized Unarmed Strike.

There's also a FAQ entry on this, I'm going to go hunt it down, unless someone can find it faster.
:edit: page 2 of the FAQ:

Does the powerful build racial trait change the damage
the character deals with unarmed strikes and natural
weapons?
No. The powerful build racial trait allows the character to
“use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without
penalty” but doesn’t say anything about changing the damage
dealt by his unarmed strikes or natural weapons.

Gavin Sage
2007-06-19, 07:45 PM
Improving the Monk depends on by what standard, as in relative to other fighting classes or relative to spellcasters. For the former a lot of things don't apply (like no flying since it all comes down to items/casters) while for the latter its a more about nerfing druids/cleric/mages.

That said some good limited improvements to the Monk:

-Ki Strike adds an actual bonus not simply count as one for DR, on damage at least if not to hit. (Although you can always get some enchanted gauntlets but I digress)
-Raise the value of Wholeness of Body by a number of factors. I think Lvlx4 sounds about right, it would match to somewhere in the area of half a Monks HP
-Abundant Step 3-5/day (or perhaps on a by level formula)
-Quivering Palm 1/day, so it can be a regular feature not merely an every once in awhile shot in the dark.
-Replace Timeless Body and Tongue of S and M with something more useful, like maybe the Ki Blasts from PHB II or something.

I personally don't support increasing BAB like I've seen said a lot do in topics like this

A 15th level Fighter has +15/+10/+5 while a Monk has +11/+11/+11/+6/+1 with FoB. The Fighter is only hitting better for one attack while the Monk gets an extra two at full BAB. There are still advantages at lower levels and of course when only attacking once, but a Fighter is SOL with Will or Reflex. Balanced does not mean equivalent, and upgrading the BAB would be too far I think. A Monk can use Stunning Fist still when attacking once. If it still is unbalanced solve it with a leaping attack of some kind, gives a +5 but can only be used a X/day or something. (For the interested)