Revisiting Phantom Steed

[Segev]

I was going to re-open the last thread I had on this topic, but it got locked "for review" and never re-opened. So let's keep real-world religious references out of this one. (I didn't bother looking back more than one page to even see what those were in the last one. @_@ )

I'm still bothered by this spell. Phantom steed is a 3rd level illusion spell, but it doesn't seem to do all that much. It lasts for an hour, and produces a rather fast mount, but the mount isn't any more able to get you places than any other, and it would take at least 4 castings to get the whole party moving for travel. It was suggested a 100 ft. movement speed is worthwhile for a 3rd level spell, alone, but I'm not convinced.

It being an illusion, rather than conjuration, also doesn't seem to do much. Illusionists can, I suppose, change what the horse looks like. At a stretch, maybe teleport it 30 ft. But doing that drops anything it was carrying. It seems to have the weight of a horse (though only one hit point), and no special ability to travel over awkward or impassable terrain with a rider or gear.

The most "creative" uses I can see for it involve having it haul weights with its 16 strength.

So I turn to the creative minds here: what might one do with this spell? Can it being an illusion be made useful? Are there any tricks or possibly situations where it would be particularly useful that I'm missing? Why is this a third level spell?

[Belac93]

You could ride it?
It is a ritual, and for, say, an Eldritch Knight, you could be a very effective kiter. I think it could dash as well, so that's 200 feet in 6 seconds, or 2000 feet in a minute, or 36.5 kilometers per hour. Pretty effective method of traveling in a medieval setting.
If you need to deliver a message, there is almost no better way, except for wind walk and teleport, and both of those are levels 6+, and are not rituals. If you start casting 11 minutes before the last one runs out, you can keep going until you need to sleep.

[Segev]

Actually, if you want to deliver a message, sending is significantly better. I suppose you might be better off with phantom steed if you only have a location to which to send the message, rather than a person, but...

I'm still not seeing why this is worth a 3rd level spell slot, or spell known.

Can you really count on it in a fight, with its 1 hp, to use it for combat mobility?

I suppose it technically has more than 1 hp for some useful purposes: sleep and color spray will go off its actual hp.

[lebefrei]

I'll say again as a DM that prefers grittier play I am glad at this spell's restrictions. I think they are very intentional. Just as it takes a year to make a teleportation circle permanent, and flight only lasts 10 minutes. I don't think low level quick and easy magic transportation is intended for this edition.

It is a third level slot specifically to make it questionable to cast instead of another spell. You should prefer to use it as a ritual, and it should not replace real mounts. It is a combat movement spell, or an emergency very fast mount for a wizard.

[Slipperychicken]

I'd pre-buff with it before appraching a mission area. It couldn't hurt, especially if your DM normally punishes players for the use of mounts. You just use it, get the speed boost, and then you don't have to worry about keeping it safe afterward.

[Segev]

I'll say again as a DM that prefers grittier play I am glad at this spell's restrictions. I think they are very intentional. Just as it takes a year to make a teleportation circle permanent, and flight only lasts 10 minutes. I don't think low level quick and easy magic transportation is intended for this edition.

It is a third level slot specifically to make it questionable to cast instead of another spell. You should prefer to use it as a ritual, and it should not replace real mounts. It is a combat movement spell, or an emergency very fast mount for a wizard.

Alright, so you don't see any uses for it beyond the obvious?

I, frankly, can't see the obvious uses as worth 10 minutes of ritual time, a third level spell slot, nor waiting until 5th level to be able to use. It just...why would I use it over buying a horse? Yes, it's 40 ft. faster. But it only lasts for an hour. A horse is there all the time. And can be hit with lower-level spells that make it just as fast if not faster. And doesn't disappear out from under you if you're caught in an AoE.

There are lower-level spells for "very fast" escape - including expeditious retreat. It's inflexible - it always summons a riding horse, which is frankly too big for Small characters to easily mount (though I suppose the RAW don't prevent it, so there's that). I seriously want it to be a good spell, preferably even better for an Illusionist (because hey, it's an illusion spell), but...it isn't, so far as I can tell.

I might debate casting it vs. another spell as a 2nd level spell. I cannot think of any reason I'd cast it - or even prepare it - over a third level spell. I'm not sure it's worth the cost of knowing it or scribing it into a spellbook, when another spell would be more useful.

I wouldn't be so bothered by it except that I want it to be useful. I just cannot see a circumstance where I would be happy I had it.

[PeteNutButter]

With Mounted Combatant feat, its 1 hp won't even matter until you run into dex save spells. Fortunately the same feat gives the mount evasion... better make that save though.

Honestly I can't see any real reason not to just buy a horse. It'd be nice to have for a mounted build in case your normal horse went down though. That is if it didn't take a minute to cast... sigh.

It is pretty bad.

[MaxWilson]

Can you really count on it in a fight, with its 1 hp, to use it for combat mobility?

Either use it strictly against melee monsters, or take the Mounted Combatant feat.

Or, just use it until something kills it, and then shrug it off and resume fighting on your own feet. Some people don't mind embracing a bit of uncertainty in their fights; and not all DMs metagame monsters into always attacking your weakest point no matter what it makes sense for them to know.


I, frankly, can't see the obvious uses as worth 10 minutes of ritual time, a third level spell slot, nor waiting until 5th level to be able to use. It just...why would I use it over buying a horse? Yes, it's 40 ft. faster. But it only lasts for an hour. A horse is there all the time. And can be hit with lower-level spells that make it just as fast if not faster. And doesn't disappear out from under you if you're caught in an AoE.

There are lower-level spells for "very fast" escape - including expeditious retreat. It's inflexible - it always summons a riding horse, which is frankly too big for Small characters to easily mount (though I suppose the RAW don't prevent it, so there's that). I seriously want it to be a good spell, preferably even better for an Illusionist (because hey, it's an illusion spell), but...it isn't, so far as I can tell.

(1) You can't cast Expeditious Retreat on a regular horse anyway. The best you can do is 70' movement with Longstrider. (I'm discounting Haste because wasting Haste on your horse would be crazy; and besides, if you did want to Haste something (e.g. to kite Tiamat) you'd get better mileage out of Hasting a Phantom Steed than a regular horse.)

(2) Phantom Steed, unlike Longstrider, is practically free.

(3) Phantom Steeds don't need to be brushed or fed or leave behind manure.

(4) Regular horses can't be summoned at the top of a cliff you just scaled, or after crossing a canyon on a rickety bridge. Most dungeons probably have enough space for a Large Phantom Steed (because the DM wants to use Large monsters), but the entrances to those dungeons are not necessarily navigable by regular horses.

(5) 100' movement instead of 60' movement is useful against several threats, e.g. kiting ancient red dragons. The extra movement lets you move in to 30', cast Otto's Irresistible Dance, and retreat back to 130', out of breath weapon range. Winding up at 90' instead is just asking to be roasted and your spell broken[1].

[1] Although you could hop off the horse after it uses all of its movement, and wind up with the horse at 90' and you yourself at 105'. But that counterintuitive and wouldn't occur to most players.

[Slipperychicken]

Either use it strictly against melee monsters, or take the Mounted Combatant feat.

Or, just use it until something kills it, and then shrug it off and resume fighting on your own feet. Some people don't mind embracing a bit of uncertainty in their fights; and not all DMs metagame monsters into always attacking your weakest point no matter what it makes sense for them to know.

If a monster is blowing attacks on my free mount, I consider that a win. That means fewer hits against PCs.

[lebefrei]

MaxWilson definitely has it. It's a spell for a living world in which sometimes we just need a fast mount for a brief period of time.

Wizards can't cast create food and water, and may have both poor con and survival. Let's say that you're stranded somewhere, no supplies, and with no nearby allies to reply to your sending. Casting a few ritual phantom steeds might be the only thing to save you from dying. Moving 3.3x your speed without using your own energy will save you a lot of trouble.

It has its uses, it just isn't a "fully optimized" spell.

[Segev]

How you get stranded without supplies but with your spellbook is an interesting question.

I did notice one thing while on my lunch break: it "ends" if it takes damage; when it "ends," it takes a minute to fade away. So its hp do matter; it doesn't just wink out. You have a full minute - enough for a combat - after it takes damage before it's gone.

Still, the in-combat uses don't seem to add up to a net one-encounter-overcome, even if you average its help over several encounters over the course of an hour (not a guarantee since damage ends it). Compare to (say) fireball, which is a one-off defeated combat a lot of the time.

It pains me to say it, but it just seems like the opportunity cost of "know any other third level wizard spell" is too great. It isn't good enough to justify the space in the spellbook, unless the DM throws it in your path as a freebie. (It might be worth the one-off 75 gp for scribing an in-school third level spell.) I'm unclear how much wizards are supposed to be able to expand their spellbooks in 5e; in 3e, it was clear they should be able to go shopping and pay for access to some books or buy some scrolls (worst case), but since there's no "magic mart" economy in 5e, it strikes me that wizards only get their 2-per-level in the spellbook by default. And in that case...about the only comparably useless spell for that level I can think of is sleet storm.


Thanks for trying, everyone. I really did hope that there was something I was missing. Or some cool trick that could be performed with it. >_<

[SharkForce]

it's a ritual spell that doesn't cost an action in the combat you're using it in. it isn't competing with fireball.

[Slipperychicken]

I did notice one thing while on my lunch break: it "ends" if it takes damage; when it "ends," it takes a minute to fade away. So its hp do matter; it doesn't just wink out. You have a full minute - enough for a combat - after it takes damage before it's gone.

Good find, I didn't notice that before.


You mean moving 200ft per round in combat isn't worth it? Probably not worth a freebie spell known, but it doesn't need to be prepared, it's cast outside of combat, and it means that you won't be in harm's way unless you really want to. That really lifts a burden from your party, when their squishy wizard is 100ft away and behind a wall when he wants to be, and right inside his spell's range on his turn.

[Segev]

it's a ritual spell that doesn't cost an action in the combat you're using it in. it isn't competing with fireball.

It definitely isn't; 1 or 11 minute casting times mean that you have to have properly predicted that the next hour will have a combat, if you're using it for a combat. And it's not making a very big difference in that combat, compared to nearly any other 3rd level spell a wizard could hypothetically have in his spellbook.

Nor is it helping in other encounters compared to nearly any other spell. The best it can do is "well, we can ride somewhere at 1.3x speed, if there are less than 6 of us and the wizard spends the whole time chanting and we pause for one person to change mounts every 11 minutes."


I perhaps shouldn't be so bothered by it, but... I WANT it to be useful. It's an illusion spell, and I'm playing an illusionist...but it's not just a disappointment from its inapplicability to any of the illusionist special features; it's not even very good as a spell. I could see it, maybe, as 2nd level, but even then, I wouldn't want to bother with it. Heck, I probably wouldn't bother with it as a first level spell, even though I agree it's a bit too good for 1st level in the few situations it's actually useful.

[Segev]

Good find, I didn't notice that before.


You mean moving 200ft per round in combat isn't worth it? Probably not worth a freebie spell known, but it doesn't need to be prepared, it's cast outside of combat, and it means that you won't be in harm's way unless you really want to. That really lifts a burden from your party, when their squishy wizard is 100ft away and behind a wall when he wants to be, and right inside his spell's range on his turn.

Where are you getting 200 ft.? Does it get its own action(s)? I thought it just moved on your move, and you'd have to spend your action making it dash.

The need to have it up and ready still makes it questionable to me, but... well, maybe, if you are going into a dungeon, you can pre-cast it. Maybe. If the dungeon doesn't preclude a Large mount going inside it.

[JoeJ]

Casting the spell 7 times will cover a full day of travel (8 hours, 17 minutes to be exact). Traveling at a fast pace, you can cover 91 miles in that time. Or travel 70 miles at a normal pace. Compare that with the 30 miles per day you can travel at a fast pace on a regular horse. This is assuming that the DM makes you stop and stand still in order to cast the spell as a ritual again. If you can recast it while riding, then 8 hours of travel will take you 80 miles at a regular pace, or a whopping 104 if you're moving fast.

[SharkForce]

It definitely isn't; 1 or 11 minute casting times mean that you have to have properly predicted that the next hour will have a combat, if you're using it for a combat. And it's not making a very big difference in that combat, compared to nearly any other 3rd level spell a wizard could hypothetically have in his spellbook.

Nor is it helping in other encounters compared to nearly any other spell. The best it can do is "well, we can ride somewhere at 1.3x speed, if there are less than 6 of us and the wizard spends the whole time chanting and we pause for one person to change mounts every 11 minutes."


I perhaps shouldn't be so bothered by it, but... I WANT it to be useful. It's an illusion spell, and I'm playing an illusionist...but it's not just a disappointment from its inapplicability to any of the illusionist special features; it's not even very good as a spell. I could see it, maybe, as 2nd level, but even then, I wouldn't want to bother with it. Heck, I probably wouldn't bother with it as a first level spell, even though I agree it's a bit too good for 1st level in the few situations it's actually useful.

it *is* useful. you ritually cast it for yourself as often as you need. the money you save by not buying a riding horse can cover a significant portion of the cost of scribing the spell into your spellbook, if you have to pay for it.

you don't NEED to cast it for your entire party for it to be good (if the fighter wants it, well, they can use all those extra ASIs they're always going on about to buy ritual casting. they can even copy it out of your spellbook for the cost of buying 2 riding horses... as in, if their horse dies once, they've *gained* money because they didn't need to buy a saddle, and didn't need to buy or carry food). you are a ranged attacker. having crazy mobility (the horse has its own actions, it just can't attack... which means it can disengage and dash no problem) on what is very likely a ranged combatant (a spellcaster) is a powerful ability, whether or not the rest of the party shares in it or not. it is a lot harder for the enemies to ignore the tougher party members and go after the high offense low defense wizard when said wizard can move 200 feet in a round, or 100 feet with a disengage, and still cast a spell.

in the right situation, it may very well have as much of an impact as other level 3 spells. but even if it doesn't have that impact, it doesn't have to. it just has to justify 11 minutes of time. it is a long-lasting spell with no concentration requirement that can be cast as a ritual and have any impact on a fight at all. what more do you want?

[Slipperychicken]

Where are you getting 200 ft.? Does it get its own action(s)? I thought it just moved on your move, and you'd have to spend your action making it dash.

PHB 198
"The initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it. It moves as you direct it, and it has only three action options; Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it."

Directing a controlled mount does not take the rider's action. For example, one could have a mount dash toward an enemy (using the mounts action) while the rider uses his own action to attack an enemy.

[weaseldust]

If you also cast Tenser's Floating Disc, you can have at least some of the rest of your party sit on the disc while you ride the horse.

[MaxWilson]

It definitely isn't; 1 or 11 minute casting times mean that you have to have properly predicted that the next hour will have a combat, if you're using it for a combat. And it's not making a very big difference in that combat, compared to nearly any other 3rd level spell a wizard could hypothetically have in his spellbook.

What's stopping you from predicting that every hour of dungeon spelunking/whatever might have a combat in it, and casting Phantom Steed every hour? Obviously you wouldn't have one during the middle of a ball or banquet, but then again you probably wouldn't have plate armor or a shield at those times either. (DMs should use these kinds of scenarios more frequently.)

Having a scout (which does not have to be the wizard) on a superfast horse should also greatly increase your ability to predict whether the next hour will have a combat in it, since you can scout ahead of the party with little danger.

There's something I'm not getting here because people have named a number of excellent uses for this spell, but you still think it's worse than everything but Sleet Storm.

In my book, Phantom Steed rates below Animate Dead, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, and Fireball and about on par with Fly, Glyph of Warding, Bestow Curse, Blink, Dispel Magic, Fear, Haste, Clairvoyance, Glyph of Warding, and Leomund's Tiny Hut (among others). It's more desirable than Feign Death, Tongues, Water Breathing, Sleet Storm, Remove Curse, Sending, and Protection From Energy. (Sleet Storm wouldn't be so bad if it didn't create heavy obscurement, which cancels out the prone condition, making the spell mostly pointless except for breaking concentration and slowing down movement over a wide area--it's still not bad, it's just not good enough to beat out good stuff like Phantom Steed.)

I get it that wizards need to make a lot of tough choices, and you might not be able to afford everything, but I just don't understand why you're so down on this pretty nifty spell.

[Vogonjeltz]

Actually, if you want to deliver a message, sending is significantly better. I suppose you might be better off with phantom steed if you only have a location to which to send the message, rather than a person, but...

I'm still not seeing why this is worth a 3rd level spell slot, or spell known.

Can you really count on it in a fight, with its 1 hp, to use it for combat mobility?

I suppose it technically has more than 1 hp for some useful purposes: sleep and color spray will go off its actual hp.

It does have the advantage of providing a mount when you couldn't (or didn't) bring a real one.

Extreme Example: Your party fights and kills a blue dragon in the desert. Unforunately for you, it killed all your mounts and pack animal, and your remaining supplies won't last the duration of a walking trip back to civilization.

Phantom Steed could literally save your life in that last example. Yes, it's situational, but it's not the worst thing ever, especially for an Illusionist.

A regular riding horse moves 600 ft per minute at a normal pace (6 miles per hour); the phantom steed is capable of moving 4 mph faster, and 7 mph at a fast pace; which if the user gallops for the hour (PHB 181) is doubled to 26 mph!

So the Phantom steed is exceptionally fast, able to cover a tremendous amount of ground faster than a regular horse can.

I would agree, it's not a combat mount, but rather a time saver.

[PotatoGolem]

In my book, Phantom Steed rates below Animate Dead, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, and Fireball and about on par with Fly, Glyph of Warding, Bestow Curse, Blink, Dispel Magic, Fear, Haste, Clairvoyance, Glyph of Warding, and Leomund's Tiny Hut (among others). It's more desirable than Feign Death, Tongues, Water Breathing, Sleet Storm, Remove Curse, Sending, and Protection From Energy. (Sleet Storm wouldn't be so bad if it didn't create heavy obscurement, which cancels out the prone condition, making the spell mostly pointless except for breaking concentration and slowing down movement over a wide area--it's still not bad, it's just not good enough to beat out good stuff like Phantom Steed.)

I get it that wizards need to make a lot of tough choices, and you might not be able to afford everything, but I just don't understand why you're so down on this pretty nifty spell.

I agree with you in general, but really, as good as Leomund's Tiny Hut and Fly? LTH is amazing- you never ever have to worry about being attacked during a long rest again, you can set up a literally impenetrable defense of a narrow point, you can set up an ambush with no risk of counterattack. In the running for best ritual in the game. Fly is great in and out of combat. Need to get somewhere high up? Fly. Dragon being a jagoff and refusing to let the paladin stab him to death? Fly. And so on. Haste and Dispel Magic are also generally better, if less egregiously so than Fly or LTH.

Phantom Steed is underrated, but I think you're sort of going too far the other way.

[MaxWilson]

I agree with you in general, but really, as good as Leomund's Tiny Hut and Fly? LTH is amazing- you never ever have to worry about being attacked during a long rest again, you can set up a literally impenetrable defense of a narrow point, you can set up an ambush with no risk of counterattack. In the running for best ritual in the game. Fly is great in and out of combat. Need to get somewhere high up? Fly. Dragon being a jagoff and refusing to let the paladin stab him to death? Fly. And so on. Haste and Dispel Magic are also generally better, if less egregiously so than Fly or LTH.

Phantom Steed is underrated, but I think you're sort of going too far the other way.

Perhaps. I chose Counterspell, Fireball, Animate Dead, and Hypnotic Pattern as the standouts because it would be extremely painful for my wizard not to have one of these spells. All the others, including Leomund's Tiny Hut, are in the realm of agonizing tradeoffs which really make me wish we had two wizards in the party.

Fly and Phantom Steed seem pretty interchangeable to me (both of them are used for kiting; one of them costs spell slots and concentration but can be used on short notice; the other is more something you have to plan ahead for but grants better mobility in most ways). Which one you choose probably depends on what the rest of your spell list and party look like. Fly was more attractive in AD&D when it lasted for a good long time instead of the rubbishy 10 minutes of 5E, which is mostly only usable for one combat. In 5E, I have yet to see a situation where Fly outclassed Expeditious Retreat--I believe such situations exist, I just have yet to see one. (Partly because I play in ranged-heavy parties instead of melee-heavy parties, because ranged combat is so obviously better. Obviously in a melee-heavy party I'd be using Fly more often to make up for the weakness of melee, but that says less about Fly than it does about melee in 5E.)

The worst part of being a wizard is the paradox of choice. :-)

[Segev]

I think what gets me about it is threefold:

1) It doesn't actually open up new possibilities that weren't available to a first level character. Yes, the phantom steed is 166% the speed of a regular mount, but if you've got the space to take advantage of this, you have other options for achieving position that you've had since at least level 3. Misty step is usually all I've found I need for tactical positioning.

2) Just about all the things that have been called out here except, arguably, fast travel are better done by other spells of the same or lower level. You don't need to kite if you've got Leomund's tiny hut because you can poke your hand out and cast your spells before stepping back into its absolute defense. Fly actually gives you new movement options. I'll grant that I overlooked a couple other stinkers in the third level list (e.g. feign death), but ... I had such hope that phantom steed would be worth taking.

3) People keep bringing up how amazing it is as a ritual because you can have it "all day" that way, but I've found that taking extra 10s of minutes to cast ritual spells tends to get irritating to the flow of the game. It's usually accepted with frustration when the ritual spell is really important, but when it's for simple potential convenience in a fight that may or may not happen, and the spell could be useless anyway depending on the topology? I can't imagine it being well-received. Add in the relatively short duration for any non-combat purpose, and it's an exercise in frustration.


I suppose one use of it being an illusion spell to an illusionist is that it can have the chosen rider change. So you could conjure it for yourself as a combat maneuverability thing, then hand it off to the rogue for scouting, etc. Assuming there's enough space to use its speed effectively.

The idea of using Tenser's floating disk to make a follow-along ride is interesting, but I don't think it works out very well unless you're spending spell slots on it, because as a ritual, you could about as easily make a second steed, instead (takes 11, rather than 10.1 minutes). I do like ideas like this, though!


I am not trying to pooh-pooh the theories here from a theoretical standpoint, but I just can't see this stuff coming up in actual play as usefully or controllably as indicated. It feels like the effect would more commonly be that the spell can't be used due to circumstances than that it would be super effective. But please, I do like the ideas I'm seeing here. They're not quite pushing it up in my estimation yet, but I appreciate reading them. I hope I CAN be convinced it's a cool spell, because I WANT it to work, in theory.

[SharkForce]

I think what gets me about it is threefold:

1) It doesn't actually open up new possibilities that weren't available to a first level character. Yes, the phantom steed is 166% the speed of a regular mount, but if you've got the space to take advantage of this, you have other options for achieving position that you've had since at least level 3. Misty step is usually all I've found I need for tactical positioning.

2) Just about all the things that have been called out here except, arguably, fast travel are better done by other spells of the same or lower level. You don't need to kite if you've got Leomund's tiny hut because you can poke your hand out and cast your spells before stepping back into its absolute defense. Fly actually gives you new movement options. I'll grant that I overlooked a couple other stinkers in the third level list (e.g. feign death), but ... I had such hope that phantom steed would be worth taking.

3) People keep bringing up how amazing it is as a ritual because you can have it "all day" that way, but I've found that taking extra 10s of minutes to cast ritual spells tends to get irritating to the flow of the game. It's usually accepted with frustration when the ritual spell is really important, but when it's for simple potential convenience in a fight that may or may not happen, and the spell could be useless anyway depending on the topology? I can't imagine it being well-received. Add in the relatively short duration for any non-combat purpose, and it's an exercise in frustration.


I suppose one use of it being an illusion spell to an illusionist is that it can have the chosen rider change. So you could conjure it for yourself as a combat maneuverability thing, then hand it off to the rogue for scouting, etc. Assuming there's enough space to use its speed effectively.

The idea of using Tenser's floating disk to make a follow-along ride is interesting, but I don't think it works out very well unless you're spending spell slots on it, because as a ritual, you could about as easily make a second steed, instead (takes 11, rather than 10.1 minutes). I do like ideas like this, though!


I am not trying to pooh-pooh the theories here from a theoretical standpoint, but I just can't see this stuff coming up in actual play as usefully or controllably as indicated. It feels like the effect would more commonly be that the spell can't be used due to circumstances than that it would be super effective. But please, I do like the ideas I'm seeing here. They're not quite pushing it up in my estimation yet, but I appreciate reading them. I hope I CAN be convinced it's a cool spell, because I WANT it to work, in theory.

1) where have you been getting 100 feet of movement and a free action dash or disengage from, if I may ask? because I bet there are a lot of level 1 characters that would love to have that. heck, a bonus action dash or disengage at rogue level 2 is so good many people have at various times considered 2 rogue levels worth a dip on fighters, barbarians, paladins, etc, even without the +70 feet of movement (and again, that uses up your bonus action, while phantom steed is giving you a regular action to spend). and, since we're talking about available since early levels, where exactly are you getting your portable horse? because I can take a phantom steed to the top of a cliff in 11 minutes. I'd like to see you rig up a system to get a regular horse to the top of a cliff that quickly. never mind feed for said horse (what, you don't think a good quality riding horse is going to live on *grass* indefinitely while carrying you and your gear, do you?). oh, and also, your level 1 replacement better explain how I'm getting a replacement horse any time it dies, too. and misty step? uhhh. no. first, it takes up a level 2 spell slot. I could have used that to cast web, or shatter, or any number of other useful spells. secondly, with phantom steed I can disengage and then cast a real spell. not a cantrip that I have around for "I don't really care" fights. a real, full-blown spell. of whatever level I want (for example, the level 2 spell I just saved by not casting misty step). I think i'll keep my phantom steed.

2) leomund's tiny hut ends if you leave it. phantom steed is highly mobile, and can be taken almost anywhere. not remotely comparable. fly lasts a short time, requires concentration, and burns an actual spell slot. it is definitely superior if you actually need to fly, but otherwise not even close. fly is substantially less effective if the enemy has someone that can fly themselves, or if they have lots of ranged attacks. or if you lose your concentration and go crashing to the ground (of course, you can also use featherfall to keep yourself from taking extra damage, but now we're talking about blowing yet another spell slot on duplicating what phantom steed does better for free).

3) phantom steed can be cast while you're walking around, or while the rogue is conducting a thorough search of the room, or while you're waiting for scouts to return, or even while you're walking through the dungeon, as written. you can cast rituals while walking around, so long as your action (and probably a free hand and your voice) are available. you can cast them while riding a horse (including, say, a phantom steed). you can cast them while riding a carriage. you can cast them in all kinds of situations, really.

the fact that the spell *could* be useless is largely irrelevant. fly is useless in a tunnel. fireball is useless in a 20 foot room with your whole party and a single fire-immune enemy. counterspell is useless when there are no enemies that cast spells. almost any spell *can* be useless in the wrong situation. that doesn't make them not useful in the right situation. and when the cost of casting the spell is so low.


yes, there are other useful spells (that require concentration, actual spell slots, in-combat actions, etc) which can do similar things. phantom steed is great because of what it costs (or rather, what it *doesn't* cost).

[Segev]

How are you getting to the top of that cliff, and what are you going to do with a horse now that you're on this cliff? Those free actions and extended moves sound great, except that I get them from a regular horse at level 1, and don't have to spend 1-11 minutes every hour maintaining it. I have yet to be in a dungeon where a horse would be usable, let alone useful. There are outdoor encounters, though, so that remains possibly viable...but only comparable to a real horse, not sufficiently superior given its duration limitations.

If the enemy is flying, you need fly all the more. Having a phantom steed when the enemy can fly is no help whatsoever. Fly at least can help level the playing field.

The trouble is that I do understand where these things are situationally advantageous, but they seem awfully corner case and the fact that it takes 11 minutes (or 1 minute and a third level spell slot) to bring it to bear, unless you're, again, stopping every 49 minutes to recast so that it's already ready when you need it (which defeats the "call it to a specific situation" use: you'll still have to re-call it). Maybe it's just the games I've been in. But I can't think of a single D&D game in any edition that I've played where this would have been useful more than once, if then, compared to literally any other option to do the same thing(s) at a similar level.

I'm playing a Small illusionist with a 20 ft. movement speed right now. I'll try to keep an eye out for times I wish I had 100 ft. movement, or 200 ft. movement, and had had reasonable expectation of 11 minutes to conjure the horse ahead of time. Maybe I'll prove myself wrong.


Trying to think of other things to make use of, is there anything cool that can be done with the fact that you can make it look however you like, as long as it's roughly the right shape and size? Is there any benefit to a non-horse appearance?

Best I can think of is trying to pass it off as somebody else's horse or something, but that seems flimsy.

[MaxWilson]

If the enemy is flying, you need fly all the more. Having a phantom steed when the enemy can fly is no help whatsoever. Fly at least can help level the playing field.

Phantom Steed lets you trivially defeat a chimera, because you're faster. Fly only helps you avoid losing if it kites you. Winning is better than not losing.

Phantom Steed is better than Fly against most flying enemies, and it is always cheaper.

[Segev]

Phantom Steed lets you trivially defeat a chimera, because you're faster. Fly only helps you avoid losing if it kites you. Winning is better than not losing.

Phantom Steed is better than Fly against most flying enemies, and it is always cheaper.

If they can fly and I cannot, how does it matter how fast I am on the ground, unless my sole concern is running away?

Edit to add: Especially if I have a party with me, and they ALSO cannot fly. To keep them in phantom steeds, I have to be constantly casting, if there are 4-5 of them. If there are more, I cannot keep them in phantom steeds. And we can't fight the flying thing since nobody can fly. We can't run away, either, because I'm the only one with a phantom steed. Or the rogue is, or whoever I called it for. If I have fly, I can let the fighter or other front-liner move up and take on the flying monster.

[SharkForce]

If they can fly and I cannot, how does it matter how fast I am on the ground, unless my sole concern is running away?

Edit to add: Especially if I have a party with me, and they ALSO cannot fly. To keep them in phantom steeds, I have to be constantly casting, if there are 4-5 of them. If there are more, I cannot keep them in phantom steeds. And we can't fight the flying thing since nobody can fly. We can't run away, either, because I'm the only one with a phantom steed. Or the rogue is, or whoever I called it for. If I have fly, I can let the fighter or other front-liner move up and take on the flying monster.

it matters because with a ranged attack, you can hit a flying enemy from the ground. the great majority of flying creatures are *melee* flying creatures. they still have to close with you to hurt you. in order to fight, a flying creature with, say, 60 feet of movement will typically need to fly in, attack, and fly out. if they're attacking, they aren't spending their action on dashing. in order for that creature to harm you, they need to be within 60 feet. with phantom steed, you can move 100 feet in, make a ranged attack, and move 100 feet out. you are now out of their range. if they fly 60 feet away, you can now move 160 feet in, and 40 feet out, meaning you only need 25 feet of range on your attack to remain out of their reach. if they dash to close distance, you can disengage. they can't hurt you. but if they want to stay close enough to have even a theoretical chance of hurting you, they will need to be close enough that you can probably hurt them (again, all you need is a weapon or spell with a 60 foot range or so to be able to hit them when they're at the absolute maximum height from which they can attempt to make a melee attack, and if you have said attack - and all wizards should - you can then get beyond the range at which they can harm you).

or, in other words, with phantom steed, you can force a flying creature in open terrain to have to keep its distance from you. unless it also has a rather long range attack, which is very rare for flying creatures.

if your party can't fight a flying thing because they can't fly, the problem is not "we don't have a fly spell", it is "your party apparently comprises a bunch of morons incapable of using the fact that their hands allow them to have interchangeable weapons". i'm sorry, but flying isn't going to help if your party are so bad at adventuring that they literally cannot handle the challenge of "make a ranged attack" by the time you're level 5.

going back a few posts:

*you* get to the top of the cliff by climbing it. something which a normal horse cannot do, meaning you'd need to leave a regular horse at the bottom. of course, with a phantom steed, you can just summon a new one at the top. good luck doing that with a regular horse.

any dungeon where you can fit an ogre is a dungeon that can fit a horse in it. never mind if you can fight a hill giant, adult dragon, etc. you might not always need a phantom steed, but if you're annoying enough to make enemies ignore the single AoO that your front liners get, you're annoying enough to benefit from being able to move into range, cast a spell, and move out of range. (if you're not annoying enough to make enemies *want* to do that, then you're probably doing something horribly wrong). in any event, it is better to have and need not than it is to need and have not.

the 11 minutes you spend summoning the horse can be spent while on the horse (or while you are walking, if your horse is not already summoned). if you don't have a horse for those 11 minutes, well, 11 minutes and 0 gold is a much easier replacement requirement than marching back to town and paying 75 gold for a new horse, considering the ways you are remotely likely to lose your phantom steed that don't leave you with a new one before your current one disappears (if you haven't already gone through the town's supply of horses, that is... i mean, they're not an unlimited resource. real horses, that is... phantom steeds actually are more or less unlimited, resources, at least as applied to a single individual).

[MaxWilson]

If they can fly and I cannot, how does it matter how fast I am on the ground, unless my sole concern is running away?

Edit to add: Especially if I have a party with me, and they ALSO cannot fly. To keep them in phantom steeds, I have to be constantly casting, if there are 4-5 of them. If there are more, I cannot keep them in phantom steeds. And we can't fight the flying thing since nobody can fly. We can't run away, either, because I'm the only one with a phantom steed. Or the rogue is, or whoever I called it for. If I have fly, I can let the fighter or other front-liner move up and take on the flying monster.

Why can't you fight the flying thing without Fly? You've got a Rogue. The Rogue can shoot arrows at the chimera. The chimera has to either give up or close distance, probably strafing you from the air with its breath weapon but also possibly snatching somebody up and flying off with them until it can drop them from above. The fighter should either whip out a bow or javelin or ready an action to grapple, based on what the chimera does. You could also take cover inside a building or cave and wait it out, or force it to come to you on the ground. You can mix these scenarios and have the rogue potshotting it from inside the building while the fighter readies a grapple in case it tries to come inside. This scenario is a lot harder than a scenario where a party has effective ranged attacks or Fly, but it's still doable.

(In a party with effective ranged attacks, you just need to keep the distance open at mid-range (200' to 300' is ideal for a Sharpshooter) while you kill the chimera. The Phantom Steed isn't really necessary but it prevents the chimera from getting in any lucky hits. It doesn't matter that you can't fly because a Sharpshooter with a longbow has 600' range already. So does a Spell Sniper Agonizing Eldritch Spear Warlock. So does a necromancer with a mob of skeletal archers with longbows.)

Fly is an investment towards negating a gaping hole in a melee-oriented party's capabilities--but there's no reason that gaping hole has to exist in the first place.

Another way to deal with the situation is to wait until the chimera tries to buzz you overhead, and then hit it with Web. (Your Phantom Steed will assist you in getting within 60' vertically of the chimera.) If it fails its save it gets restrained and falls to the ground, taking 6d6 damage or so and falling prone, and then your fighter rushes over to kill it (at advantage for prone) before it can recover. Web unanchored lasts only until the end of your next turn, but that's still plenty to bring down the chimera; and it's cheaper than Fly.

It's clear at this point that Phantom Steed just doesn't fit into your group's playstyle and your selection of other spells (e.g. you've already got Misty Step and don't feel you need multiple movement spells). If so that's fine. It's useful to people with different spell selections and playstyles. Maybe when you play in a ranged-heavy group you will value Phantom Steed more than Fly.

[Segev]

Perhaps. It does sound like it can work for some groups. I'll keep my eyes open for opportunities where it might be useful. If I see enough, I might pick it up anyway. I'm only level 4 right now, but I'm trying to plan my third level spell acquisitions.

[JackPhoenix]

With Malleable Illusions, you can also try to convince your GM that you can change its size. You're small, creature only needs to be medium to serve as a mount. And if the dungeon is too small for medium creatures, the rest of the party have the same problem.

[Segev]

With Malleable Illusions, you can also try to convince your GM that you can change its size. You're small, creature only needs to be medium to serve as a mount. And if the dungeon is too small for medium creatures, the rest of the party have the same problem.

That's an interesting thought. It's not part of the normally-allowed parameters of the spell, but a DM might be talked into it.

[Rub]

I did notice one thing while on my lunch break: it "ends" if it takes damage; when it "ends," it takes a minute to fade away. So its hp do matter; it doesn't just wink out. You have a full minute - enough for a combat - after it takes damage before it's gone.



I saw this tweet from Jeremy Crawford that says otherwise:

RAW: you can ride a phantom steed only during its duration, not during the 1-minute fade. But a DM breaks nothing by ruling otherwise. #DnD

Also, a Small creature can ride a Medium mount, but do the rules say it CAN'T ride a Large mount? A Medium creature can ride a dragon or other creature that is bigger than Large, so why can't a small creature ride a Large horse? I imagine the only restriction on a small creature riding a Phantom Steed would be some kind of penalty to mount and dismount. Having a Medium sized party member use the Help action could overcome the penalty.

[JackPhoenix]

I saw this tweet from Jeremy Crawford that says otherwise:

RAW: you can ride a phantom steed only during its duration, not during the 1-minute fade. But a DM breaks nothing by ruling otherwise. #DnD

Also, a Small creature can ride a Medium mount, but do the rules say it CAN'T ride a Large mount? A Medium creature can ride a dragon or other creature that is bigger than Large, so why can't a small creature ride a Large horse? I imagine the only restriction on a small creature riding a Phantom Steed would be some kind of penalty to mount and dismount. Having a Medium sized party member use the Help action could overcome the penalty.

First, begone, foul necromancer!

Second, it's minimum size requirement. Small creature can ride large mount just fine, but (I assume you're reacting to my post) Phantom Steed is always large, no matter who cast the spells (so giant wizards are out of luck), and large creature isn't very practical inside buildings and dungeons, but medium generally doesn't have the same problem.

Now, excuse me, I'll have to report myself to the nearest paladin for supporting dark magic.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Just hope its not an illusion that you fall through because then it would be a bit hard to ride.

[Rub]

First, begone, foul necromancer!

Second, it's minimum size requirement. Small creature can ride large mount just fine, but (I assume you're reacting to my post) Phantom Steed is always large, no matter who cast the spells (so giant wizards are out of luck), and large creature isn't very practical inside buildings and dungeons, but medium generally doesn't have the same problem.

Now, excuse me, I'll have to report myself to the nearest paladin for supporting dark magic.

Ah, that makes sense. I had one more question then we can put this discussion to its final rest. Can an Abjuration Wizard use his Projected Ward to make the Phantom Steed have more than 1 effective HP?

[Bahamut7]

I would like to add this. Refluff the Steed as motorcycle, keep it invisible, have one friend sit in front and one behind you. You get one of the most zaniest setups from the Hanna-Barbera days...

https://blurppy.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/0bear.jpg

[LeonBH]

Not sure if it's been brought up before but Phantom Steed can be used in combat. It fades 1 minute after being hit, so it's still there up until 10 rounds pass by.

So you have essentially an invulnerable mount with 100ft move speed.

Edit: ah, it's been brought up.

[Rub]

Not sure if it's been brought up before but Phantom Steed can be used in combat. It fades 1 minute after being hit, so it's still there up until 10 rounds pass by.

So you have essentially an invulnerable mount with 100ft move speed.

Edit: ah, it's been brought up.

Yes, brought up and that is not the way it works. According to Jeremy Crawford, once it takes damage it no longer has movement, but you get the extra minute so you can dismount and not have it disappear beneath you.