Pimp my boat

[Citizen Joe]

I'm looking for ways to abuse magic (DND3.5) to make a ship function better than just mundanely.

So far I got:
Decanter of Endless Water (Geyser). This actually doesn't produce enough thrust compared to the mass of a ship to do anything.

Feather Token (fan). 8 hours of wind (or 8 hours of cancelling storm) at the cost of 200 gp.

Feather Token (Anchor). Obvious, but why not just use a mundane anchor?

Permanent Gust of Wind? I think its stationary so wouldn't help beyond 60 feet.

Control Winds? 10 minutes/level. I don't think its mobile so again, not too useful.

Immovable rod as an anchor? Mundane anchor seems to work better since the I.R. can only support 4 tons... not enough for a ship... although it might slow it down some... more likely it will rip a hole in the hull or tear out of its moorings.

[martyboy74]

How about you permanize the Gust of Wind on a chunk of wood, and put it right behind the sail?

[Citizen Joe]

How about you permanize the Gust of Wind on a chunk of wood, and put it right behind the sail?

It is not a targettable spell.

[martyboy74]

For this purpose, it totally is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm)

[Steelwraith]

How about animating oars? I believe there are several spells that might work.

[Just Alex]

Use Eberron rules. I think the Explorers Guide has all the rules for elemental ships. Nothing speeds a ship up like a couple of bound water and air elementals.

[Citizen Joe]

How about animating oars? I believe there are several spells that might work.

OK, I guess we can lump that in with undead and construct oarsmen. Although animate objects just makes oars that attack, not row. Still a question of cost/benefit. An animated/undead/construct oar is no better than a mundane one with cheap labour.

Martyboy: I still think Gust of Wind is a location spell which probably won't move with the boat. I think the "object or location" line in Permanancy refers to the types of spells that fall into that category, not allowing you to target them differently.

Control Winds is also a no-target spell meaning location only.

Alex: I thought about the elementals but they don't specifically say anything about directly affecting the ship. Thus its falls into the category of House Rule.

Keep them coming... I don't actually WANT magic to completely overshadow mundane sailing, but I want to catch any possible abuses before they occur.

[Bassetking]

A Permanant Heat Metal

Cast on... say... A great, big, metal drum... pumped full of water. Have pipes coming out of aforementioned drum, and use the produced steam to both power the pumps bringing water onto the ship, but also to turn a paddle wheel, Propeller, or Turbine.

Congrats, you've invented trans-continental steamships that have no need for Coal, wood, or any fuel.

How much room in the Hull do you think THAT frees up for Booty?:smallbiggrin:

[Citizen Joe]

A Permanant Heat Metal


Heat Metal is not a permanable (sp?) spell.

[Ryacko]

Where would you put the drum without having the boat catch on fire?


I'd create a barrel-sized Decanter of Greek Fire. Have tubes go out of it, light it and foom!

[PirateMonk]

Where would you put the drum without having the boat catch on fire?

Well, since you're starting the Age of Steam anyway, might as well start using metal hulls.

[Penguinsushi]

Why has no one mentioned Stormwrack? Lots of stuff in here. (pg 131) Captain's Lantern, Everfull Sails, Living Figureheads, Oars of Speed, Sails of Displacement, Secure Lines... ...several more, plus worn items that help you sail more expertly...

I also might ask what sort of boat you have - and if you have the option of 'something else', since there are a lot of interesting ships in that book as well.

~PS

[Ditto]

Ew, don't use math and science and steam power! Permanencied Gust of Wind is the perfect solution. Everfull sails sound handy, too.

I love Eberron skyships. There's an artificer gimmick around 5th level, I think, called 'Free the Elemental!' or somesuch. With a touch attack, you dismiss a ship's driving force for a few rounds at least. Get a familiar or a Helping Hand or rapel on over to your friendly neighborhood adversary to deliver the touch spell, and watch the hilarity ensue as the ship plummets from the sky!

[Genome]

I remember taking a peek through a Dragon Magazine and finding rules for making boats out of dragon parts, but I don't remember the issue.

[nooblade]

I think you can use control water to achieve some movement fairly quickly. It lets you select range and area. Make an item that continuously raises the water beneath the ship (no permanency required with wondrous items) and you have instant forward locomotion without sails or oars! More room for artillery, though the boat would have to be slanted to compensate for the little mound of water that's always going to be there. There's some problems to work out with turning though.

The main difficulty is in establishing how fast a boat moved by always raising the water beneath it would move. It would effectively always be going down a river. What happens when you try to go up a river? Do you go twice as fast when you're actually going down a river? Does it depend on the height that the water is raised to? Does the controled water go back down right away? Can other ships even follow you? What if you had another control water device to lower the water in front of the boat too? etc.

In a non-Eberron setting, you would need a cleric with the water domain or air domain to get the elementals to help at all, really, unless there's a non-core book with something or you use dominate monster.

Still doesn't let you fly or anything, which is disappointing. There's probably something about that in another one of those add-on books.

[Kurald Galain]

The main difficulty is in establishing how fast a boat moved by always raising the water beneath it would move.

No, the main difficulty is determining how much farmland you flood by raising the sea level :)

(meow! aaargh!)

[goat]

You need flashing lights and a sound system. Can't have a party boat without them.

I recommend hiring some low level bards, and then some items of permanencied dancing lights.

Then you'll need a decanter of endless wine, and some food.

After that, you just need guests.

[kpenguin]

Martyboy: I still think Gust of Wind is a location spell which probably won't move with the boat. I think the "object or location" line in Permanancy refers to the types of spells that fall into that category, not allowing you to target them differently.


Well, the spell could be cast on a location relative to the boat. The reason you can could do this (and argue with the DM that it works) is because all of the location spells are cast relative to something. Most of them are cast relative to the planet your on. Because the location of that particular space is always changing (from orbits, revolutions, etc.), the spell must be relative to that area. Also, many locations you could cast on are moving relative to the planet as well. Flying cities, ships, wagons, etc. Would you say a grease spell falls off the boat because its moving? What about a web spell?

[Fax Celestis]

Continual Flame + Decanter of Endless Water = Endless Steam.

Or, try a theurgeme. I recommend this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=134619&postcount=2). With or without the curse, your call.

[Ranis]

Silver cannons.

A band of constructs constantly playing techno.

[Yuki Akuma]

Continual Flame + Decanter of Endless Water = Endless Steam.

Or, try a theurgeme. I recommend this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=134619&postcount=2). With or without the curse, your call.

Continual Flame doesn't create heat.

[Citizen Joe]

OK, let me explain my line of questioning...

Working on a world where ships can play a major part. However, I don't want the ships to be ludicrously overpowered by some cheap magic gimmick. Something that is so cheap and powerful that everyone would have it. That would break down the whole economy of the ship mechanics. The desire is that ships be relatively mundane, and any magics would be relatively expensive for their minor improvement.

However if there is a relatively cheap/overpowered magic then we'd need to nerf the magic system a bit to stop that. Ships WILL be almost entirely mundane as a given. Also, the world WILL have pirates in it. So if you get that really expensive THING to improve your boat, you're risking losing it to the pirates. So, I'd say no ONE thing more valuable that the ship itself (probably 10,000 gold for a sailing ship, or 30,000 gold for a Galley).

[Kurald Galain]

Gust of wind normally emanates from the wizard, so if the wizard can avoid falling off the boat he could blow it forward. Likewise, if you have an item or whatnot that casts gusts of wind, as long as you prevent said item from falling off it will propel the boat forward.

Yes, this does not work in the Real World with a big fan on the boat (meow - splat!) but that's because a big fan blows you backwards, and a gust of wind spell does not. Likewise, a shotgun has backlash and a lightning bolt does not.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Spelljammer helm?

[Citizen Joe]

Spelljammer helm and Theurgeme basically fall into the Artefact class, which is easilly limitable and basically unique, thus not everyone will get one and thus doesn't require nerfing magic.

Again, Gust of Wind won't directly work because of it being left behind. Making a constant GoW device is basically a Feather Token: Fan and at 200 GP I doubt you'll make it cheaper. The Everful Sails sounds like the same effect but no limit or duration. I don't have Stormwrack to check it out, but again, remember the pirates. Put a 30,000 gp sail on a 10,000 gp boat and you are begging to get hijacked.

[Jorkens]

Summon a big sea monster to pull it?

[martyboy74]

Again, Gust of Wind won't directly work because of it being left behind.

Gust of Wind moves with you. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm)


This spell creates a severe blast of air (approximately 50 mph) that originates from you, affecting all creatures in its path.

[Penguinsushi]

The Everful Sails sounds like the same effect but no limit or duration. I don't have Stormwrack to check it out, but again, remember the pirates. Put a 30,000 gp sail on a 10,000 gp boat and you are begging to get hijacked.

They're 12k, but you need one set per mast.

~PS

[Citizen Joe]

OK let me end the Gust of Wind debate with it tearing apart your sails and rigging then sinking your ship. So if it moves with you and permanent, then you wreck your sails from too much wind. If it doesn't move with you then you get a short boost of speed until you get out of the area or the rigging snaps.

[Ditto]

Gust of Wind is absolutely the answer... you are looking for a way to 'abuse magic to make a ship function better' - why don't you want it to work?

Cast it on a piece of cheese, and sovreign glue the cheese to your quarterdeck. (Not blowing that cheese anywhere.) If you wanted to lessen the force, you can set up a series of baffles to dilute the wind. If you have a set of flaps to direct the stream to either side, then the boat is stationary. If you want less force, but still moving forward, close the baffles a little bit. Some force forward, some force equally left and right. Picture the wind blowing through this post, from top to bottom:

| | | | Open, full force (mast-ripping)

/ | | \ Partial force (usable level of thrust)

/===\ Closed (deflecting the wind aside, full stop)


Or just anchor the bottle to a pivoting joist and turn the stream away from the sails when you don't want it blowing.

[Citizen Joe]

Gust of Wind is absolutely the answer... you are looking for a way to 'abuse magic to make a ship function better' - why don't you want it to work?

I explained why. By definition magic use will NOT be so common aboard ship that every ship needs to use that trick. Either the existing magic is incapable of doing it (cost effectively), or we'll need to nerf the magic system in the ocean to prevent it. I prefer not to have to nerf the magic system.

In your baffle design, you applied physics to a magical effect in order to get propulsion. If you use physics, you have to go all the way. The wind pushes out, but it also pushes in. So the ship blows the sail away from the ship... i.e. the mast and rigging gets destroyed and you are STILL sittting there. Not that you can cast GoW ON anything... its a location spell when permanized (NOT personal). Ergo GoW doesn't work (which was my primary concern as cheep magic). GoW items would not likely be better than the Feather Token Fan (specifically designed for this purpose, so much so that it can't be used on land).

Also if you get into the hydrodynamics of ships you will find that they do have a maximum speed that is in part based on waterline length. To get beyond that speed you need exponentially more power. Which typically means wrecking the boat. However, eventually you'll make such a bow wake from it that you sink. I think Submarines actually move faster underwater which may seem counterintuitive, but its true.

The end result is you want wind when there is no wind, but increasing wind past a certain point only sinks your boat. Also you want the wind coming from the right direction. Square rigged ships need it aft, but I think Lateen rigs work best across the wind.

[Fixer]

Using the table and working backwards:

Feather Token: Fan = 200gp

As a single use, use-activated item it uses a formula of Spell Level x Caster Level x 50gp

Therefore, we can assume the ability to generate 8 hours of wind for travel is worth 4 in the place of Spell Level x Caster Level.

To make it 24 hours, we need to multiply by 3, bringing us to 12.

To take it from single use to continuous, still remaining use-activated, we need to take the 12 and multiply by 2000.

Thus, for a magical item that reproduces the effects of a Feather Token: Fan for 24 hours on use (which can be as simple as a set of sails that activate when unfurled and deactivate when unfurled) is 24,000gp.

[Citizen Joe]

Thank you Fixer, that sounds roughly like the Everful Sails, both in price and mechanics.

I'm putting that in the "too expensive for common use and makes you pirate bait collumn."

Could someone work up the collosal construct boat to figure out its cost?

[Fixer]

Use the Effigy rules in Complete Arcane to determine price and use the HD from the Animated Object Table to determine how many HD a Colossal boat should have (at least 32HD by RAW).

I don't have my complete Arcane handy so someone else do the math for the cost of the Effigy.

No need to reinvent the wheel. Use what is already out there.

[Ditto]

As Martyboy pointed out in the first reply, it quite explicitly *is* allowed to be permanencied on an object. An Amulet of Wind Gusting is a perfectly legal item. You say you don't want to get into house ruling (as fiddling with elementals would do), but you've decided permanency doesn't work the way it is written...

The physics of it are fine. There is no kickback - it's not like a giant fan, as has been pointed out earlier. The wind comes from nowhere, it's just there. Free moving air. If it helps, you could imagine a giant billows floating along of its own volition behind the ship. You could even have a permanencied unseen servant hold the Gusting Cheese for you. It's not attached to the ship physically, so your physics are no longer a concern.

You also said you don't want this trick to be particularly cheap, so that it won't overshadow regular transit. I suppose it depends on your definition and the level of the campaign, but it isn't exactly a 2 cp fix for all of your travel needs. Permanency is 5 gp per XP used in a spell, plus paying for the level 10 spellcaster's services, plus Sovreign glue. (You could skip the glue with the Unseen Servent, saving cash and the alleged problem with physics.) Altogether, that's 5*1500 + 10*50 + 2400 = 10,400 gp. You won't have that WBL til level 6, *if* you haven't spent gold on anything else. This is a major investment for your vessel, so let's say it'll take half of your WBL funds - wait til maybe level 8. You could save the cash if your captain is a level 10 wizard, I suppose, but I don't necessarily know why a wizard would be captaining a ship.

It's possible, not terrifically cheap, but if you really want to sink all of your money into making the ship go fast then you can do it. Certainly not cheap enough for it to make 'modern' sea travel obsolete when you consider that 90% of the world's population is level 2 or under and are not adventurers.

[PaladinBoy]

I'd like to second the Eberron elemental binding suggestion. There are rules for that in Magic of Eberron, and actual statistics for airships, elemental galleons, and even undersea ships in the Eberron Explorer's Handbook. The elemental definitely has a major effect....... the elemental galleon is most like a normal wooden sailing ship, and that's not saying much given that it's closer to a modern hydroplane.

Suppose it's not really improving the ship, strictly, but the captains of House Lyrandar in Eberron gain many of their advantages from their dragonmark, which allows them to control the wind and weather. In game terms, this means things like gust of wind, control winds, and control weather as spell-like abilities. In fact, the most reliable way to control elemental vessels is to have a dragonmarked captain use a magic item, the wheel of wind and water. Any other pilot has to control the elemental through sheer force of will.

[Fixer]

As Martyboy pointed out in the first reply, it quite explicitly *is* allowed to be permanencied on an object. An Amulet of Wind Gusting is a perfectly legal item. You say you don't want to get into house ruling (as fiddling with elementals would do), but you've decided permanency doesn't work the way it is written...

Not defending the guy but I think it is more a matter of control.

The item you describe can certainly exist using RAW. The problem is that you can't turn it off or redirect it. Such a device would be of limited usefulness on a ship as the wind would be directed as the spell, a five foot wide line 60 feet long.

The wind would basically push one sail, and then only five feet wide of that sail (as a spell effect, it doesn't bleed across the sail's surface like normal wind as it is not normal wind. Line effect spells and abilities stopped short of their maximum length do not spread at the endpoint). The height isn't mentioned, but it can be reasonably assumed that it is roughly the height of a medium sized caster.

What permanenting that spell does is create an object that generated a five foot wide by five foot tall by 60 feet long corridor of wind. The wind can push one part of a sail unless that sail happens to fit most of itself within that area and such a small sail is more likely to capsize the vessel than push it along.

So it is not a matter of saying you can't make such an item, just that it cannot work RAW to move a large sailing vessel with any speed.

[Ditto]

Not defending the guy, but...

Gee, thanks. :smalltongue: hehe

Admittedly, I know little about how sails work and would react to this sort of wind. I don't know why you couldn't find a way to rig it up... focusing a superstrong wind on a smaller sail should still be able to carry a ship (again, I don't know exactly how large a ship could be with this still effective, but it's a thought exercise). If you want to, get two to spread to stream! :smallbiggrin: I'd be interested to know how a spell like Gust of Wind should react to an obstacle... it seems so intuitive that wind would naturally wash off of a wall or similar obstacle. Fun game...

If you want to turn it off, anchor it to a pivot and turn it. You could put the Cheese in a heavy box, even, and close the front face when you want to stop. Gust of Wind can only move things of such-and-so a size.

Alternately, you could try anchoring it on the back of the ship and using it as an engine.

[Steelwraith]

Hmm, I think you should go back to the propeller idea... lose the steam engine, and find some magical way to get them spinning. Unless someone actually dives in the water and examines your hull, nobody will know whats powering your ship.

As for cost, how expensive can it be to have something enchanted to spin in place? I would avoid permanency, since you need to be able to change the rate of spin... unless you can find a way to stop your ship with the propeller spinning.

[Citizen Joe]

Well, first you have to invent the propeller. That is not an easy task since most things 'invented' take their cues from Nature and a propeller is not natural at all.

[Bassetking]

Of course not... where would anyone find a propeller in nature...

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/938356/2/istockphoto_938356_maple_seed.jpg

[Job]

Of course not... where would anyone find a propeller in nature...

:roach:-"He Besieged me with science!"
:roach:-"you sir, get a cookie"

http://www.solcomhouse.com/Darrieus-windmill.jpg
As far as rotating a propeller, you could set up a differential and run that above deck to an “eggbeater” sail and then use that fancy permanent gust of air trick to turn it. The eggbeater sail is more compact and sturdier so it should withstand high winds.

[Dementrius]

Hmm, I think you should go back to the propeller idea... lose the steam engine, and find some magical way to get them spinning. Unless someone actually dives in the water and examines your hull, nobody will know whats powering your ship.

As for cost, how expensive can it be to have something enchanted to spin in place? I would avoid permanency, since you need to be able to change the rate of spin... unless you can find a way to stop your ship with the propeller spinning.

Bind a half-fiendish fire elemental into a box - the first internal cambion engine.

[Steelwraith]

Of course not... where would anyone find a propeller in nature...

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/938356/2/istockphoto_938356_maple_seed.jpg

There is a tree flower I can't remember the name of, that spins as it floats down from the canopy. Its petals are shaped somewhat like a propeller.

Also keep in mind, in a world full of wizards, there are many, many more intelligent people tinkering with the laws of physics then there ever were in the real world... there's a good chance one of them has already invented it. :p

[Callix]

A baleen whale can pull up to 1.6 tons. So 3 whales could pull the ship. Getting 3 whales to do your bidding... Charm Animal? Use Wild Empathy, Handle Animal, and lots of castings. A dedicated druid could power your ship pretty well, regardless of conditions.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Somehow I think the galley-chariot idea is a bit less breakable a concept than somehow managing to get GoW to work. Much more amusing though.

[Fixer]

The propeller idea requires normal physics. There are no instances of a propeller being successfully used in D&D unless there is a gnome involved and they violate the laws of physics regularly.

This is phantasy physics, and thus magic must be the engine and method.


I looked up the Colossal construct idea when I got home and came to a cost of around 114,000 gp. That's 50K for the 'galleon' and the remainder for the HD. The interesting part is that by building the animated galleon in this fashion it is not limited to sea movement. It would have all the statistics of a Colossal animated object and, as such, be able to move at 10ft on land (unless it has built-in oars which can count as legs which would raise its speed to 30ft on land). It would also be able to attack and trample.

Guard: "Sir, we are being attacked by pirates!"
Captain: "We are land-locked! How can a pirate vessel get here?"
Guard: "I dunno, sir, but it just ran over A company..."

[bosssmiley]

Silver cannons.

A band of constructs constantly playing techno.

Viking shield spinners along the railings (bling *and* they shift when boarders try to get aboard). :smallbiggrin:
Living figurehead.
Gigantic animated turtle paddles (kill dragon turtle, tan, bolt to ship, add necromancy) instead of boring old oars.

[Ditto]

Put a Cheese of Wind Gusting near the propeller, pointing sideways... :smallbiggrin:

[Fizban]

Before Stormwrack there was the Arms and Equipment Guide, with all manner of gear, including vehicles. There are a few examples of fantasic vehicles that just kind of exist and have a cost (as in, there aren't any standard rules to price them by), one of which is the nautilus. It's a version of the gnome submarine presented in the book, driven forward by screw propellers turned by a bound water elemental (not ebberon bound, but actually stuck turning a crank for all eternity).

There's a number of smaller vessels therein (and more in stormwrack), and some air vehicles. The air vehicles are powered by generically animated propellers, and cost in the neighborhood of 50k. It shouldn't be unreasonable then, to add magically animate propellers to a normal ship for say, 30k, considering that it has no flight or underwater capability. It could probably go at it's normal light wind speed (the sub moved at 10', but it's a lot heavier than normal ships).

Baisically, if you really want to have ships in a game, you need to get stormwrack or the AaEG.

As an aside, I love the idea of a tricked out high level sailor with a bunch of profession (sailor) bonuses sailing a rowboat through a hurricane.

[nooblade]

If you're going to use gust of wind, why bother with sails? A gust of wind spell (50mph) out of the back of the boat could even act like rocket propulsion, but I'm not a physicist by any means. Hey--it works for fan-powered river-craft, why not have a gust of wind powered boat too? I'd say it could be almost as big as a sailboat, maybe holding 15 people with a crew of 2 (less capacity and more crew if there's piratish weapons).

Another interesting idea would be an animated (or somehow otherwise moved) Archimedes' screw. That would be a primitive type of propeller, shaped more like the threaded part of a screw than a fan, moving somewhat slower than some other ideas probably, but it would allow steady movement that can be changed with a rudder regardless of wind. That sounds like the best idea to me, you could just have a magical creature or just about anything that makes a turning motion rotate a shaft that also turns the screw. Can be wooden in a special-made housing at the bottom of the boat. Let a pirate try to steal that! Its integral to the boat's design.

[Citizen Joe]

If you're going to use gust of wind, why bother with sails? A gust of wind spell (50mph) out of the back of the boat could even act like rocket propulsion, but I'm not a physicist by any means.
Gust of Wind can stop a medium sized creature and has no effect on larger creatures. That simply isn't enough power to move a boat. Just like the geyser from a Decanter of Endless Water.


Can be wooden in a special-made housing at the bottom of the boat. Let a pirate try to steal that! Its integral to the boat's design.
So you're saying you want the pirate to maroon you and just take the whole boat then? BRILLIANT!:smallwink:

[Beren One-Hand]

I've had a few ideas here, but they might be a tad bit house rulely.

1) Have a psion enchant your hull with a continuous Float power = unsinkable ship.
Cost: 1 (Power Level) * 1 (Manifester Level) * 2000 (Continuous) * 4 (it's normally 1 rnd/level) = 8,000 gp

2) Have a friendly Druid or Cleric cast Hallow (or Unhallow if you swing that way) with a Resist Energy (Fire) added in = wooden boat that doesn't burn for a year.
Cost: 1,000 (Material component for Hallow) + 2,000 (Material component for the Resist Energy) = 3,000 gp Material Components
9*5*10 + 11*2*10 = 670 gp to pay for casting at full strength
Total = 3,670 gp

And both of these are transparent add-ons, so they don't make your boat more of a target, but you can't loose them unless you've lost your boat.

[Leon]

Undead or Constructs bound to a crank, oar, chain or what have you - endless propolsion

[Fizban]

Undead work fine, but unfortunately constructs are seriously expensive. The cheapest medium sized constructs I've ever found are still 4,000gp a piece, and that's only as good as a human. Either you'll need undead, or enslaved elementals (which probably won't be cheap either).

So, the cheapest form of propulsion would be a gang of skeletons or zombies (depending on what kind of action rowing takes) set to rowing and responding to a few set commands (full speed ahead, half speed, stop, full speed reverse, and full speed reverse). But that's probably to complex to set up without their actual master, so you're going to need a necromancer or evil cleric to stay aboard.

For more expensive solutions, assuming you could get the screws installed with the base price of the ship, a huge effigy creature should be available for 20-30k, which could turn the screws and power the ship indefinitely, but the weight would eat up cargo space.

[Xuincherguixe]

A baleen whale can pull up to 1.6 tons. So 3 whales could pull the ship. Getting 3 whales to do your bidding... Charm Animal? Use Wild Empathy, Handle Animal, and lots of castings. A dedicated druid could power your ship pretty well, regardless of conditions.

Anything that seems like something Auqaman would pull would be avoided by people out of embarrassment. Even on worlds that should not know of Auqamans existence. It's a universal law.

[Meschaelene]

I don't understand why there is such resistance to the gust of wind idea, especially when undead rowing is so much faster. Sails were historically great because you could sail all night and not have to stop for your rowers to rest. Cancel out the need for the rowers to rest, and sails would never be invented.

Historically, sailing ships did not sink due to gunfire. They sank due to fire. Keep that decanter of endless water for fire-fighting.

Pirate problems? Add a nice flat top-deck to your largest galley, and house a dozen pegasus with riders. Give them (the riders...) several alchemist's fire flasks. Name the leader of the riders "Pappy". Win D+D.

[Fixer]

The gust of wind idea (as an item that generates a gust of wind combined with permanency) I did my best to explain why it wouldn't work to propel a ship.


The item you describe can certainly exist using RAW. The problem is that you can't turn it off or redirect it. Such a device would be of limited usefulness on a ship as the wind would be directed as the spell, a five foot wide line 60 feet long.

The wind would basically push one sail, and then only five feet wide of that sail (as a spell effect, it doesn't bleed across the sail's surface like normal wind as it is not normal wind. Line effect spells and abilities stopped short of their maximum length do not spread at the endpoint). The height isn't mentioned, but it can be reasonably assumed that it is roughly the height of a medium sized caster.

What permanenting that spell does is create an object that generated a five foot wide by five foot tall by 60 feet long corridor of wind. The wind can push one part of a sail unless that sail happens to fit most of itself within that area and such a small sail is more likely to capsize the vessel than push it along.

So it is not a matter of saying you can't make such an item, just that it cannot work RAW to move a large sailing vessel with any speed.
In order to 'modify' the effects of the spell you'd have to use the spell to enchant a magical item, using the magic item creation rules which would change the cost appropriately.

The undead rowing idea could work, but you'd need a control. Creating a magic item to control a crew of undead skeletons would be more costly than constructs. Using the Phylactery of Turning as an example we can safely calculate the multiplier for an increase in turning undead to be (11,000 gp / .7 (restricted to those with ability to turn undead) / (4 levels ^ 2)) approximately 1000gp. Given this is a boost item, this makes sense.

By wikipedia a Galley has around 18 oars, each with at least two people. That gives us 36 skeletons to control. That requires 36 Hit Dice of undead which requires 36 HD of simulated turning ability. Removing the requirement of being able to turn undead so that anyone can use the item, transform it from being a bonus item to being a command-word item and you can derive a cost. Given that Turn Undead is an ability gained at 1st level we will assign it a spell level of 1.

Spell Level (1) * Caster Level (36) * Command Word Item (1800gp) * No space limitation (2) = 129,600 gp (I would round it up to 130,000gp myself.)

Now, 130K item for controling 36 skeletons might seem drastic, but this means that the controller mentally commands all of these skeletons to perform any actions they desire. To reduce the cost you can add in limitations, like:

1) Cannot be commanded to attack. (I would drop 20% of cost for this alone.)
2) Commands must be verbal. (Another 10% drop.)
3) Item must remain within 30 feet of undead or they become uncontrolled. (Another 5% drop.)

My reductions are home-brewed but they knock down the price to about 84K which might seem more reasonable to a ship captain.

[Aramil Liadon]

Maple tree, peoples! And it's not the flower, either!

On topic, one could make a cool device with Gust of Wind which works exactly like a steam engine, only with more force.
Make jet-skis with captive dolphins to pull canoes or rowboats.
Better yet, use a captive fire elemental or the like to make jet engine. Water goes in, water expands, water shoots out.
For more fun, make the jets on a pivot so they can be aimed to bombard the shore or another ship with boiling water or jets of steam.

[Citizen Joe]

Now, 130K item for controling 36 skeletons might seem drastic, but this means that the controller mentally commands all of these skeletons to perform any actions they desire. To reduce the cost you can add in limitations, like:

1) Cannot be commanded to attack. (I would drop 20% of cost for this alone.)
2) Commands must be verbal. (Another 10% drop.)
3) Item must remain within 30 feet of undead or they become uncontrolled. (Another 5% drop.)

My reductions are home-brewed but they knock down the price to about 84K which might seem more reasonable to a ship captain.

I could easily see that device as a drum that you would beat to make pace. That means you still need someone actively drumming.

A DND Galley is listed as having a crew of 200 which kinda puts it out of the realm of feasibility. A warship has 60-80 rowers, also not likely. Longship takes 40 oars (50 crew) which is in the neighborhood of what you described. However, the only real likely one is the Keelboat with its meager 8-15 crew. The problem is that a keelboat only moves at 1 mph, half the speed of a sailboat, which is basically free power. Thus the skeletal crew idea seems to fall apart.

EDIT: I just checked, you can control at any one time up to 4HD of undead per level. So a level 20 cleric could make an item capable of controlling 80 1HD skeletons to man the oars of a warship. Longship is much more reasonable with level 10 (40 1 HD skeletons).

[Aramil Liadon]

Being away from books, how many HD do skeleton goblins have? If it's something like 1/2 or 1/4, you could have a pretty big crew at lower levels.

Edit: Dang. So much for that. I liked that highly abusable rule.

[Citizen Joe]

I think they stopped using half HD creatures and changed the die type in 3.5.

Anyway they are 1 HD creatures.

[Amphimir Míriel]

Being away from books, how many HD do skeleton goblins have? If it's something like 1/2 or 1/4, you could have a pretty big crew at lower levels.

As Citizen Joe points out, they are 1HD... Probably you are confused since they are 1/3 CR...

[Fizban]

Now, 130K item for controling 36 skeletons might seem drastic, but this means that the controller mentally commands all of these skeletons to perform any actions they desire. To reduce the cost you can add in limitations, like:

Oddly enough, that's about how much it costs to just magically propel the ship, by the AaEG.As for number of rowers, the AaEG puts a galley at requiring 160 rowers, so we're probably talking about different ships here. If you haven't noticed, the AaEG is my main source for vehicle stuff.

Now, for my ideas, I like trying to do with mostly just flat spells. Simple skeletons are incredibly cheap to produce, the only problem is controlling them, since following the idea of equivalent cost for equivalent work, hiring necromancers would cost as much as hiring the rowers.

But, I have a solution! Set up the propeller screws and the device the "rowers" would use to drive them (basically a huge wheel they push around). Now cast animate object on the wheel device by itself, it can't be any bigger than huge by itself. Permanency, and order it to follow the commands of the captain, who can then choose who else can give it orders. Since the device doesn't protrude from the ship, it can't be dispelled from outside. Total cost: 16,660gp to hire spellcasting.

Depending on how complex of order the DM will let you get away with, you could probably set up a throttle that signals the construct below on how fast to go, and just seal it off so no one can tamper with it.

Now, the next big question is: what kind of ships are you planning on using? I would preferring something smaller myself, but there are three ships I see as being useful: the sailing ship, longship, and galley. The latter two can be rowed, and so are more reliable. Magically propelling a ship basically has three ideas: magically provide wind, magically move oars/propellers, and animate the whole ship into a creature. Animating the whole ship requires a CL of 32 for pretty much any ship of usable size (and that's only because DnD stops at colossal size for anything larger than huge), so it's to hard to get. Wind requires a custom wondrous item, which ends up being expensive. Rowers are expensive unless you can control your own undead, even my loophole is subject to the DM's goodwill.

So, unless you want to captain a rowboat, you aren't going to get it propelled for free for cheap.

Oh, good scrolls to have on hand: Raise From the Deep and Submerge Ship, levels 4 and 7, respectively (spell compendium). Either will keep the ship afloat for hours per level, and submerge ship does just what it sounds like. Make whole will repair an entire section of ship as long as it's not warped or burned, which is pretty dang good, so carry some of those too.

Edit: I'm just gonna keep talking: (wizards only from here)

Now, I'm not sure, but I don't think that stone would weigh any more than steel, so: use wall of stone to create an entire stone ship. Use stone shape to create any fine details you need, and get ready to hire rowers or pay out the nose for magic to propel it, since I'm pretty sure sails won't do the trick.

Use wall of iron to graft some armor plating to the outside, after shaping some edges for it to insert into.

Use fabricate to get everything else for 1/3 the price, if you can make the craft checks.

Edit2: Ooh, how about skeleton sharks and/or whales to pull the ship?

[Zeful]

Why not just make the rudding thing fly? Levitate sections of the ship and bolt them together, use persistant spell to make last 24 hours, or compromise with the dm to allow you to use Permanancy on it with the sections and then bolt them together then move the ship four or five hundred feet in the air and have a permanant invisibility effect, presto a boat no one can steal, and you don't worry about pirates. This would be prohivitably expensive but it'd work.

Another idea is to create a wing like structure and bolt to the ship on a set of pivots. They can propel the boat both forward and back, by creating a high pressure area in the middle of the boat (forward) or in front of the boat (backward). This isn't as fun as an airship but it'll look funny.

Undead are the best bet though, they don't need sleep/eat can follow directions well and don't have unions.

[Fizban]

Since I've been turning my mind over this stuff all day, I got my hands on a copy of stormwrack for now.

The everfull sails are cheaper with smaller ships, but extra masts will cost more.

Looking more at the ships, I think it would be best (read: faster) to instead of trying to get free rowing labor, focus on just getting a fast wind driven ship, and either everfull sails, or a source of wind manipulation.

Also, the best/cheapest construc labor I've found is an effigy scum. It costs more than an effigy human (6k instead of 4k), but it has a swim speed and three natural attack if you need it. Good if you enhance the rowing speed of a launch and don't want to sail next to skeletons. Ironically, your labor will cost several orders of magnitude more than the boat.

As for making the thing levitate, you can do that with any old building using the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. It even suggests rigging up sails if you don't want to pay for full flight. Assuming you could apply the same rules to ships, it would be pretty dang cheap actually, for a small vessel.

[Irreverent Fool]

You need flashing lights and a sound system. Can't have a party boat without them.

I recommend hiring some low level bards, and then some items of permanencied dancing lights.

Then you'll need a decanter of endless wine, and some food.

After that, you just need guests.

Glowing Orb spell, Spell Compendium, 3rd level, creates permanent orbs of light. Just put those in colored anterns if you want colored lights, no need to waste xp on permanency

[Fizban]

Glowing Orb spell, Spell Compendium, 3rd level, creates permanent orbs of light. Just put those in colored anterns if you want colored lights, no need to waste xp on permanency

But dancing lights move, and you can have them move really fast for a dancing lights rave.