First time in AL, Barbarian struggles

[tomato]

Greetings,

I had my first adventurer's league game this weekend, doing the first session of Harried At Hillsfar. I rolled up my first AL character, a variant human barbarian.

My final stats look something like this:
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 8
Variant human feat: Shield Master
AC 17
HP 15

There were two combat encounters, one with a wolf pack and a second with some demonic goats. Between the two encounters, I went unconscious twice, and was only by DM fiat on the second encounter with the goats, where I should have been one-shot from full HP outright (crit and a max damage roll hit on the double gore attack).

Now, I know AL can be ruthless, and I also know level 1 is basically the hardest level, but at the same time, I'm worried about my long-term abilities to tank. Have I misread the barbarian? Are they not very good in this role?

[Infernalis]

Barbarians can be beasts at tanking, you're not mistaken.

Could you post more specifics about those encounters?

Have you been able to apply the resistances you get while raging?

Edit: Also to add, shove people when you can since you have the feat for it.

[Temperjoke]

Well, bad luck is bad luck, you can't really do anything when dice are against you. Barbarians are good tanks, but they're health-based tanks, not gear-based, meaning you need to have lots of health as opposed to lots of armor. Unfortunately, this means that can take a level or two before your health is enough to sustain you. Beyond this sort of advice, without knowing anything about your party or the amount of enemies you were facing, I can't really offer anything more specific.

Just remember, you shouldn't be out there alone, no matter how tanky you are, you need support and backup from your other party members, else you're going to get squashed.

[RulesJD]

Greetings,

I had my first adventurer's league game this weekend, doing the first session of Harried At Hillsfar. I rolled up my first AL character, a variant human barbarian.

My final stats look something like this:
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 8
Variant human feat: Shield Master
AC 17
HP 15

There were two combat encounters, one with a wolf pack and a second with some demonic goats. Between the two encounters, I went unconscious twice, and was only by DM fiat on the second encounter with the goats, where I should have been one-shot from full HP outright (crit and a max damage roll hit on the double gore attack).

Now, I know AL can be ruthless, and I also know level 1 is basically the hardest level, but at the same time, I'm worried about my long-term abilities to tank. Have I misread the barbarian? Are they not very good in this role?

If you had only 2 combats, you should have been raging for both.

Assuming max starting health and looking at the Giant 2-headed goat (presumably what you fought)

1. He would have had to have done 45 damage (15 health + doubled from raging resist + 15 more to sheet death you) to sheet kill you in 1 turn. This is assuming you get to rage.

2. Giant 2-headed goat on a crit (IF he gets to charge you) 16 (crit charge) + 16 (crit bludgeoning) + 3. That's 35 damage, which would have knocked you unconscious and would have had to have been the first attack to get the ram damage.

3. The next regular attack max damage is 11 more, which puts you over sheet death amount, but also wouldn't happen because you'd already been unconscious.

4. If you DIDN'T get to rage, and the first hit was a crit, it could have sheet killed you because the average damage is 29, just 1 off from the 30 needed to sheet kill you without a rage up.

So yes, in this small niche case, you got screwed by bad rolls and possibly not raging soon enough. After you get 2-3 more levels, you'll be ridiculously hard to kill with more effective HP than the BBEG's you'll be facing. Suck it up, get another level or two, and learn some lessons about the fragility of life.

[ruy343]

Indeed, that's my question: were you raging? A barbarian, when faced with a hefty encounter, should fly into a bloody frenzy, hacking and slashing at everything around him (thereby taking half damage from all sources in the process).

That said, some tricks that good, low-level barbarians can use to increase survivability:

Shove people prone: if you shove them prone, their movement speed is halved, and they get disadvantage on the attack roll (while you have advantage on strength checks while raging!). A shove qualifies as an attack (see the combat chapter), so you can keep raging even if you just shove or grapple on your turn. (You also get opportunity attacks against people who stand up adjacent to you, if I remember correctly, and since reactions occur before the event that triggered them, you get advantage on the opportunity attack against the creature that's standing up).
Consider using your action to "dodge" while not raging, forcing enemies to have disadvantage on attacks against you, but still allowing you to get opportunity attacks if an enemy moves past you. It also gives you advantage on Dex saves to avoid spell effects and traps that you can see, which can be a life saver. This works great when you're trying to tank for a friendly caster: put yourself in a position that forces enemies to move through a threatened area to get to your friend, and they'll think twice about their life choices.
Switch hitting: There's nothing that says you can't carry around a shield and battleaxe for non-rage combats, while using a greataxe for rage. Since you have a limited number of rages per day, use a shield to increase your AC significantly while you don't have damage reduction available.


I hope that helps!

[tomato]

Barbarians can be beasts at tanking, you're not mistaken.

Could you post more specifics about those encounters?

Have you been able to apply the resistances you get while raging?

The first encounter had 7 wolves and one wolf alpha. The DM did not opt to reveal the CR rating of any of the wolves, but I'd guess that the alpha was a CR 1 and the wolves were CR 1/8. The party featured a human human polearm fighter, a dragonborn monk, a dragonborn shortbow rogue, and a half-elf sorcerer. I mistakenly decided to not use rage during this fight, because I thought that there would be more than two encounters for the whole adventuring day. In brief, the party is largely unoptimized except for the fighter and myself, and so we had a few issues with dealing damage. The fighter kicked solid ass, but she can only do so much. The sorcerer only brought one offensive spell, chromatic orb, which he could not use due to the prohibitive material cost, and his misunderstanding AL starting equipment rules. He did have firebolt though. This fight went pretty well from a tactical perspective, we were able to kite them back and use the polearm fighters reach and polearm master feat to great extent, but as soon as the Alpha showed up, the monk and I got dropped really quick due to his advantage mechanic.

The demon goat fighter had 6 demon goats and a demon goat leader, I'd estimate another CR 1/8 and the CR 1 or even 2 on the lead. I stepped forward, full HP, and the goat lead charged in and did a total of 32 damage on his first double attack, which should have been enough to kill me outright. The DM felt bad and just gave me two failed death saves instead, but we only barely managed to defeat them.

All in all, I'm not really sure what to think about my choices. When do the barbarian tanking features really come online?

[Infernalis]

All in all, I'm not really sure what to think about my choices. When do the barbarian tanking features really come online?

When you rage :smalltongue:

Don't give up on the class, just take this as a lesson learned and see how everything works out when you rage the next time.

[tomato]

Indeed, that's my question: were you raging? A barbarian, when faced with a hefty encounter, should fly into a bloody frenzy, hacking and slashing at everything around him (thereby taking half damage from all sources in the process).

That said, some tricks that good, low-level barbarians can use to increase survivability:

Shove people prone: if you shove them prone, their movement speed is halved, and they get disadvantage on the attack roll (while you have advantage on strength checks while raging!). A shove qualifies as an attack (see the combat chapter), so you can keep raging even if you just shove or grapple on your turn. (You also get opportunity attacks against people who stand up adjacent to you, if I remember correctly, and since reactions occur before the event that triggered them, you get advantage on the opportunity attack against the creature that's standing up).
Consider using your action to "dodge" while not raging, forcing enemies to have disadvantage on attacks against you, but still allowing you to get opportunity attacks if an enemy moves past you. It also gives you advantage on Dex saves to avoid spell effects and traps that you can see, which can be a life saver. This works great when you're trying to tank for a friendly caster: put yourself in a position that forces enemies to move through a threatened area to get to your friend, and they'll think twice about their life choices.
Switch hitting: There's nothing that says you can't carry around a shield and battleaxe for non-rage combats, while using a greataxe for rage. Since you have a limited number of rages per day, use a shield to increase your AC significantly while you don't have damage reduction available.


I hope that helps!

I didn't rage for the first encounter, because I had read somewhere to expect a 6-encounter adventure day, and I didn't want to blow my load on the first AL fight ever against a small group of wolves. Boy was I mistaken!

I do have shield master and used a shield and bonus action shoves all combat though. Gotta give that fighter advantage!

[Theodoxus]

Rage really helps you tank, for sure, but your tankiness comes online slowly. 2nd level, you get danger sense which helps with dexterity saves, so you can avoid both mundane and magical affects to your balance or dodge. You also get reckless attack, which sounds counterintuitive, but anything that has either faced a barbarian before, or is intelligent enough to know what a barbarian is, will see the ability to get advantage to attack you as a no-brainer. Part of being a tank is to make sure things go after you and leaves the more vulnerable in your party unmolested.
3rd level is where you really grab the tanking bull by the horns, with bear totem to increase your resistances to everything sans psychic damage. Going wolf instead grants anyone around you advantage on their melee attacks - less need to push things to the ground, but kinda wrecks your feat...

4th, an ASI - probably want to go with a stat boost (Str or Con) depending on how you feel... but one option would be Tough, which would instantly provide 8 HPs and 2 more every level after.

From there on, barbarians just get practically unkillable. They're an amazing class with the right party build around them. I hope you feel better picking it.

[Temperjoke]

The first encounter had 7 wolves and one wolf alpha. The DM did not opt to reveal the CR rating of any of the wolves, but I'd guess that the alpha was a CR 1 and the wolves were CR 1/8. The party featured a human human polearm fighter, a dragonborn monk, a dragonborn shortbow rogue, and a half-elf sorcerer. I mistakenly decided to not use rage during this fight, because I thought that there would be more than two encounters for the whole adventuring day. In brief, the party is largely unoptimized except for the fighter and myself, and so we had a few issues with dealing damage. The fighter kicked solid ass, but she can only do so much. The sorcerer only brought one offensive spell, chromatic orb, which he could not use due to the prohibitive material cost, and his misunderstanding AL starting equipment rules. He did have firebolt though. This fight went pretty well from a tactical perspective, we were able to kite them back and use the polearm fighters reach and polearm master feat to great extent, but as soon as the Alpha showed up, the monk and I got dropped really quick due to his advantage mechanic.

The demon goat fighter had 6 demon goats and a demon goat leader, I'd estimate another CR 1/8 and the CR 1 or even 2 on the lead. I stepped forward, full HP, and the goat lead charged in and did a total of 32 damage on his first double attack, which should have been enough to kill me outright. The DM felt bad and just gave me two failed death saves instead, but we only barely managed to defeat them.

All in all, I'm not really sure what to think about my choices. When do the barbarian tanking features really come online?

Yeah, you had some bad luck on the rolls, but at the same time, the DM might have gone a little hard on you, given that you guys don't have an active healer. How experienced are the other players. It sounds like your tactics are largely sound, but there's only so much you can do without your team clicking in place. As for tanking, you gain resistance when you use your rage, and then at level 3, when you pick your specialization, you can gain more resistances if you go with bear totem.

[GlenSmash!]

The demon goat charge ability is nasty, but it had to build up speed to use it (move at least 10 feet before attacking). If you had gotten up it it's face first it would not have been able to charge you without backing up and giving you an opportunity attack. And Rage resistance would have reduce that 32 damage to 16.

Also, sage advice says you can shove before you attack, giving yourself advantage too.

A few other things to note, if your party had passed the medicine check to deliver the goats successfully allowing the mother gaot to live, you would have fought less demon goats. And if you focused fire on the Alpha wolf, the other wolves flee once the Alpha dies. A successfully perception check would have revealed the hiding Alpha before the fight. Harried is Hillsfar is an excellent adventure in no small part thanks to the fact that Ability checks before combat affect how the combat will play out.

As to being a Barbarian, Shield master is solid and pairs well with the Barbarian's abilities i.e. Advantage on Shoves while raging, and advantage to dex saves after level 2. But sometimes the Best way to "tank" is to just kill things quickly. I like to take advantage of rage damage as much as possible, so at levels 1-3 my barbarians dual wield handaxes. 1d6+STR+Rage main hand damage and 1d6+Rage off hand damage is a lot at low levels. By level four I usually switch to 2-handers.

Finally, level one is just that brutal. You'll find later that a raging Barbarian is really hard to kill, and a non raging barbarian can already take more damage than most other classes. You could effectively tank as a Barb ith no shield and even a lo AC just by virtue of the large pool of hitpoints and resistance to damage while raging.

[tomato]

The demon goat charge ability is nasty, but it had to build up speed to use it (move at least 10 feet before attacking). If you had gotten up it it's face first it would not have been able to charge you without backing up and giving you an opportunity attack. And Rage resistance would have reduce that 32 damage to 16.

Oh man, I wish. Our DM just put us on an open field, with the goats on one end and us on the other. We had to cross about 120 feet of terrain. First round, both groups just double-moved or moved and made ranged attacks, and since the goats were a bit lower in initiative than I was, that meant I was out in the open when he attacked. There were zero terrain features except a fence bordering all sides. Someone was going to get charged, and my party and I positioned in such a way to ensure it was going to be me.


Also, sage advice says you can shove before you attack, giving yourself advantage too.

Oh good god. That should really change things. I did not know that. The wording on the feat says otherwise. Because I'm probably going to need to show this to the DM during our next campaign, do you happen to have a link to that ruling?


A few other things to note, if your party had passed the medicine check to deliver the goats successfully allowing the mother gaot to live, you would have fought less demon goats. And if you focused fire on the Alpha wolf, the other wolves flee once the Alpha dies. A successfully perception check would have revealed the hiding Alpha before the fight. Harried is Hillsfar is an excellent adventure in no small part thanks to the fact that Ability checks before combat affect how the combat will play out.

This is an interesting note. It was my first time in AL, so I didn't know what to expect. My DM actually skipped over most of the investigation portion of the first half, so we were basically dumped into delivering the baby goat. We didn't have anyone in the party with a wisdom higher than 10, and certainly no one trained in medicine, so we could only sit there and watch the mother goat die. As far as the perception check is concerned, I think the DM actually forgot about that. We did focus the Alpha down after his first round, but the other wolves did not flee.


As to being a Barbarian, Shield master is solid and pairs well with the Barbarian's abilities i.e. Advantage on Shoves while raging, and advantage to dex saves after level 2. But sometimes the Best way to "tank" is to just kill things quickly. I like to take advantage of rage damage as much as possible, so at levels 1-3 my barbarians dual wield handaxes. 1d6+STR+Rage main hand damage and 1d6+Rage off hand damage is a lot at low levels. By level four I usually switch to 2-handers.

Finally, level one is just that brutal. You'll find later that a raging Barbarian is really hard to kill, and a non raging barbarian can already take more damage than most other classes. You could effectively tank as a Barb ith no shield and even a lo AC just by virtue of the large pool of hitpoints and resistance to damage while raging.

Thank you for your comments. This is exactly the sort of wisdom and insight I come to this board for. I'll keep my head down and stay at it.

[Temperjoke]

Oh man, I wish. Our DM just put us on an open field, with the goats on one end and us on the other. We had to cross about 120 feet of terrain. First round, both groups just double-moved or moved and made ranged attacks, and since the goats were a bit lower in initiative than I was, that meant I was out in the open when he attacked. There were zero terrain features except a fence bordering all sides. Someone was going to get charged, and my party and I positioned in such a way to ensure it was going to be me.



Oh good god. That should really change things. I did not know that. The wording on the feat says otherwise. Because I'm probably going to need to show this to the DM during our next campaign, do you happen to have a link to that ruling?



This is an interesting note. It was my first time in AL, so I didn't know what to expect. My DM actually skipped over most of the investigation portion of the first half, so we were basically dumped into delivering the baby goat. We didn't have anyone in the party with a wisdom higher than 10, and certainly no one trained in medicine, so we could only sit there and watch the mother goat die. As far as the perception check is concerned, I think the DM actually forgot about that. We did focus the Alpha down after his first round, but the other wolves did not flee.



Thank you for your comments. This is exactly the sort of wisdom and insight I come to this board for. I'll keep my head down and stay at it.

Sounds like you've got a DM that only cares primarily about the combat part of the game and not about the other stuff that makes up a D&D adventure.

[Caskwell]

I'll echo what everyone else said about a barbarian becoming very hard to kill after a few levels - I know that I certainly try in my AL game with no success!

Also, having run a season of AL modules, I can tell you that none of them achieve the DMG goal of ~6 encounters per day. If I want a party to have more than two encounters in a row, I have to either deviate from what's written, or just tell them no, you can't rest now with no real reason (or a really BS one).

And a note on the module that you were playing - as written (i.e. per the included map), there should have been about 40ft between the party and the goats with the fence as barrier option and a few bushes scattered in the corners for cover. Basically, no one should be able to get to melee range in the first round (w/o dashing), but they can close on the boss goat to prevent its charge attack. Or you could have hid around the fence and let them come to you. All that said, in the 3-4 times I ran this one, I always got a charge attack off, luckily never with the rolls you encountered!

[greenstone]

Our DM just put us on an open field, with the goats on one end and us on the other. We had to cross about 120 feet of terrain.

In that situation, I'd move the melee characters 10 or 20 feet in front of the ranged characters and scatter caltrops or flaming oil in front of them. Then I'd take the dodge action and just wait. The goats have no ranged attack, so they have to come to me and they have to go through probably one round of ranged attacks to do so.

[busterswd]

Classes don't really come into their own until level 3, at which point you can grab bear totem and become amazing at tanking.

Level 1 is super swingy, and it doesn't help that most Tier 1 AL modules are written for level 3 characters. Once you've got a couple more levels under your belt, you'll be in much better shape in general.

[djreynolds]

Well you took shield master. So its decided, focus on stuff that is based around S&B. Let the fighter be flashy and set him up with prone enemy. And for now, use medium armor. Really. Half plate is 15, plus 2 for dex, and with a shield 19AC. May as well you medium armor until your con and dex catch up or you get an item.

You'll have advantage when raging on strength contests, better chance of winning shoving matches. And tell that rogue you want company, he can stab people you've just laid low. Grab a spear. Good weapon that can be used versatile and thrown. Throw a spear, move in and shove.

You and the fighter have switched roles in a sense. Shield master will limit your need to use reckless attack, since you cannot really benefit from GWM. So you gotta focus on being nasty, I don't recommend a multiclass with barbarian, I like them pure, but if you are sure you are not going to 20th level, a level of rogue for expertise in athletics is welcome.

But your rogue buddy will need to drop the bow and go two weapons when he reaches 2nd level and gets cunning action. Prone someone and he can sneak attack with advantage and then bolt with his bonus action.

You can use the bonus action from the shield master whenever, so theoretically, you could stab move and then shove. And this is really crazy, I know everyone says Totem, but berserker could prove beneficial. I feel he is more reaction based and you are going to get smacked around you may as well profit. And I would take sentinel at 4th. So stay in half plate or breast plate as long as you can. Just pop frenzy when its needed.

[tomato]

And for now, use medium armor. Really. Half plate is 15, plus 2 for dex, and with a shield 19AC. May as well you medium armor until your con and dex catch up or you get an item.

Since you and someone else mentioned, I thought I'd point out that in AL games, it seems like you can't reliably get enough gold to purchase something like half plate until later. I played some more of this barbarian last night - got to level 3 - and I still only have 328 gold, barely half of what I'd need to purchase it.

[GlenSmash!]

Thank you for your comments. This is exactly the sort of wisdom and insight I come to this board for. I'll keep my head down and stay at it.

Always happy to help. I might be somewhat unique in that I mostly play Barbarians, and I've DMed Harried in Hillsfar (though not in AL, it was released for free in Dragon+)

As far as getting half plate, while it would be Really Nice, but I don't think going from 17 to 19 AC will make that big of a difference. A Barbarian with a 10 AC could still be fine past the first couple of levels with the big bag of hit points and resistance. The fact that there are incentives to hit the barbarian instead of other characters is what makes them great 'tanks'.

The simplest method to build a barb that will do great at smashing things (generating threat) and taking a beating is to go go bear totem at level three and grab the Great Weapon Master Feat, Polearm Master feat or both. GWM couples really well with Reckless attack (by using the Advantage from Reckless Attack to counter the -5 to hit from GWM), which isn't so bad with resistance to damage from raging counteracting the advantage your enemies will have from reckless. PM is the most reliable way of getting a bonus action attack and sometimes reaction attack. I believe AL allows a character rebuild up to Level 5. So you may want to consider this. As a side note. you'll be so good at doing damage that you might find it boring.

Alternatively you could try to shut enemies down with the Sentinel feat, which also pairs nicely with PM.

That being said, Shield master really does pair well with Barbarian due to the advantage on Shove checks while Raging. You could consider Grappling with the Attack action and then Shoving with your bonus action due to shield master, this however requires you to have a shield in hone hand and nothing in the other hand, so It's not that ideal. That coupled with the fact that the you will be using your bonus action of the first round of combat to Rage to make it work makes it more difficult. You could grab Tavern brawler, but the bonus action grapple competes with the Shield master shove, so I don't think it's ideal to have both feats. Grappling and Shoving are also not effective against creatures that are more than one size larger than your character, so it won't work in every situation. If you do go this route consider a level in Rogue for expertise in Athletics.

[endur]

Always rage. Dont stress thinking about it. Just rage.

[Vogonjeltz]

Oh good god. That should really change things. I did not know that. The wording on the feat says otherwise. Because I'm probably going to need to show this to the DM during our next campaign, do you happen to have a link to that ruling?

"If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature..." Not attack, attack action. In essence you do the following: Take the attack action, use a bonus action to shove the opponent, make your attack roll.

If you have multiple attacks you can split it up even further, taking the attack action, make an attack, move 10 feet, shove someone, move 10 more feet, take that second attack.

[djreynolds]

For me I like my barbarians with a big weapon. But since you have shield master, the next question is will you go to 20 levels?

If not grab some rogue, expertise in athletics is huge. Also cunning action is really nice to have. But before any of that you need to get sentinel. It is really that good for a S&B style tank. Your AC is good enough, we all look forward to getting the best armor and forget that the money isn't there yet.

I like reckless attack, use it. Your AC is 17, good enough for the backlash when coupled with damage resistance when raging. So when raging, reckless attack and that's why I like the big weapons because you can throw GWM in on top of that, you may actually kill someone before they ever get to swing.

Sentinel will make good use of your reaction when enemies attack your fighter or rogue. Good Build

[eastmabl]

What was the rest of party composition?

For my first AL game, I was a first level player at a table of 3rd and 4th players. Because the table was so much higher than what I could do, I spent the time trying to contribute without drawing too much attention to myself. (I only went unconscious once).

If you were trying to tank at first level while hanging around with higher level characters, I wouldn't be surprised that you had a rough go of it.

[Joe the Rat]

I know that adventure. We tried to adopt one of the goats.

As a general tip, if you are doing the EX nn-01 adventures, burn your long rest resources every encounter. Metagamey, yes, but you need all the help you can get early on.

[GlenSmash!]

I know that adventure. We tried to adopt one of the goats.

As a general tip, if you are doing the EX nn-01 adventures, burn your long rest resources every encounter. Metagamey, yes, but you need all the help you can get early on.

^Good advice here.

[greenstone]

The wording on the feat says otherwise. Because I'm probably going to need to show this to the DM during our next campaign, do you happen to have a link to that ruling?

From Jeremy Crawford:

As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action.
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/29/shield-master-feat/

[Aurthur]

The sorcerer only brought one offensive spell, chromatic orb, which he could not use due to the prohibitive material cost, and his misunderstanding AL starting equipment rules.

Chromatic Orb doesn't consume the diamond...should be easily obtainable with starting funds.

[Joe the Rat]

The catch is you don't have "starting funds," you have the starting packages from class and background.

If this was noted before play started, he should have been able to make a quick spell switch. (No combat cantrips? really?)

[Sir cryosin]

Don't a arcane forces get rid of need of material components.

[Aurthur]

Don't a arcane forces get rid of need of material components.

Only if a monetary price isn't associated with the component. So, for example, Chromatic Orb requires a diamond worth 'at least 50gp'...so you can't use the arcane focus/material bag for that. You have to buy it. However, it's only consumed if it explicitly says so, which Chromatic Orb does not.

[Zaq]

Always rage. Dont stress thinking about it. Just rage.

That seems like a good way to end up without any tricks up your sleeve. You're allegedly supposed to have 6-8 encounters per day. At low levels, you'll run out of rage after just 2 encounters. I really hope the first 2 encounters of the day were the hardest ones! Rage is there to be used, but a low-level Barb doesn't have enough rages to just turn them on without thinking.

(I mean, yeah, you still only get your fun toys for 2 encounters per day whether you rage right away or whether you jealously hoard your rages for when you really need them, but that just shows the problem with tying all of a class's unique mechanics to an X/day ability instead of an X/encounter ability, which I say is just flat out bad game design. I'm not saying that you should have NO daily resources, but I feel like a class that gives you absolutely no options on a round where you aren't enjoying the expenditure of a daily resource is a class that isn't very well balanced. Even a level 1 Wizard has multiple cantrips to choose from.)