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Thomix
2007-06-19, 08:17 PM
I'm soon starting in a game of lvl 20. I want to play a rogue style caracter, but i have no idea if it would be better to play it rogue lvl 20 or rogue with PrC.

On the other hand, i have no idea what feat to take.

I want a*rogue that can handle the meele well enough, and that can sneak anywhere he want.

Please, give me some helpfull advice!

Dragonmuncher
2007-06-19, 08:20 PM
Well, without even touching anything else, I can tell you that the 20th level of rogue is a dead level. Look at it. You get +1 BAB, +1 Reflex, and that's it. There's something nice and neat about seeing the number 20 next to a class abbreviation, but it's always bugged me that the last level for a rogue is so bloody useless.

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-19, 08:26 PM
For a melee rogue, Two-Weapon Fighting is always nice.

Maybe replace that dead level with a level of fighter or barbarian. Bonus feats and fast movement never hurt anyone.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-19, 10:37 PM
Unless your rogue is good at least a single level PRC dip in assassin to fill up level 20 dead level. PRCs generally pump up a build a little more than a straight build.

Two to Four levels of Fighter for the Feats, HD and BAB. PRC Ranger for a few levels urban variant and the ranger benefits including some spellcasting. Rogue with Ninja and a level in Monk and Ascetic Rogue to combine all the damage.

A Vow of Poverty Rogue who steals from the rich and gives to the poor would be interesting particularly if you used something like the psi rogue which gets a few powers and a dip into psi assassin or monk.

The psi rogue gets some psionic powers for basically forfeiting two skill points if not going to pursue a PRC. Wizards has a web article on it if you are interested you end up with 100+ PP and asorted first to fifth psionic powers at level 20 depending on how many bonus PP you get. Spend a feat or two on expanded knowledge or take Hidden Talent. The nice thing about psionics is the powers scale.

The Changeling variant rogue gets 10 skill points a level and some nifty abilities for forfeiting trap sense. I would let a shapechanging hengeoki from Oriental Adventures also into the class.

The Spell Thief has some pretty nifty abilities if you are not interested in PRCing a straight rogue.

PRCs like the 6 level Telflammar Shadowlord from Unapproachable East or the 5 level Merchant Prince from Powers of Faerun can be interesting depending on the campaign.

Rama_Lei
2007-06-19, 10:41 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3
It's always fun for flavor and crunch. Also, don't go VoP, bad move.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-19, 10:47 PM
The 10 level Chameleon PRC could be a lot of fun and it's also over at Wizards. It would be interesting with the Master Spy PRC or several levels of the Master of Masks.

TheDarkOne
2007-06-19, 11:07 PM
Rogue 16/ Nightsong Enforcer 4(Complete Adventurer) is a, simple, good build. It nets you +16 BAB at 20th level, as well as full sneak attack progresion. You could also try Rogue 16/Swashbuckler 3/Nightsong Enforcer 1. The first 3 levels of swashbuckler are pretty good for a lot of rogues. For feats make sure you have a high dex and a high con and go with two weapon fighting feats.

Seffbasilisk
2007-06-19, 11:09 PM
If you dip scout, there's a feat in Complete Scoundrel I believe that lets you count both scout and rogue levels for both Skirmish and Sneak Attack progression.

TheOOB
2007-06-19, 11:27 PM
If you are planning on going epic (which if your starting at level 20 is likely) I very strongly suggest you either go 20 rogue, or take a 10 level PrC. That way you can can continue into epic advancement of rogue or the PrC and get bonus epic feats which are pretty darn nice.

Its not the best at melee, but a very powerful build non the less is rogue 3/wizard 5/arcane trickster 10/archmage 2. You gain the ability to cast 9th level spells, decent sneak attack, and lots of skills. During your epic levels you can either finish archmage to gain more high arcana, or continue arcane trickster for the previously mentioned epic feats (access to level 10+ spell slots? yes please).

Like the darkone mentioned nightsong enforcer is a good PrC, full BAB and almost full sneak attack is nasty, though my proposed build would be rogue 7/swashbuckler 3/nightsong enforcer 10 so you can continue onto the epic advancement of the class.

Curmudgeon
2007-06-20, 04:24 AM
Since you want to play a Rogue, you should maximize what the Rogue does well: skills and sneak attack. A single level of Shadowdancer gives you the Supernatural form of Hide in Plain Sight, which will let you (try to) Hide right in someone's face each swing of a full attack. If you're successfully hidden each hit adds sneak attack damage.

If you want melee success, max out your ranks in Hide, Bluff (for feinting), Tumble (so you can move at full speed without provoking AoOs), Use Magic Device (for item-based spellcasting), and Move Silently.

You need at least 5 ranks each in Balance (so you're not flat-footed while balancing), Perform (dance) (for the Shadowdancer PrC), and Jump (to improve your Tumble skill).

If your INT is decent (and it should be, for the skill points) you'll want to take Skill Mastery as one of your Rogue special abilities. This is effectively worth 9 more skill ranks in each mastered skill because you'll know what skill total you can expect.

Feats to consider: Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel), Snap Kick (Tome of Battle) if you have a decent unarmed attack -- which a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) can provide, Spring Attack (since you'll have to meet this feat's requirements for the Shadowdancer Prc), and one that's essential: Craven (Champions of Ruin) to beef up your sneak attack damage.

Dean Fellithor
2007-06-20, 04:50 AM
pure classes suck, whenever my DM makes a Higher level game: you must multi-class.

my example:

level 10 character:

7 Rogue
2 Fighter
1 Favored Soul

in this combo: my 7 levels of rogue have the power of a tenth level rogue with the combo of the fighter and FS. the other classes act as normal.
and you can guess I'm going to take some more levels in Fighter (5 levels) and Dread Pirate (5 levels)

Callix
2007-06-20, 05:00 AM
4 levels of Invisible Blade add easy feinting and full Sneak Attack when using two daggers. If you're willing to sacrifice a special at 16th, 5 levels give you *more* sneak attack than a pure rogue. And both ways you get a +16 BAB. 7 sneak attacks/round for 11d6 bonus anyone?

Droodle
2007-06-20, 05:09 AM
Splash a level of warblade or swordsage into the build every few levels (for a total of four levels) and take theAvenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) PRC all the way out to level 10. Death attack, poison use, and the extra martial maneuvers and stances will more than make up for a loss of 2d6 sneak attack damage (which you won't even be losing if you use the right stance) and a couple special rogue feats.

Kurald Galain
2007-06-20, 05:55 AM
Hide in Plain Sight, which will let you (try to) Hide right in someone's face each swing of a full attack.

I don't think you can do that. Hiding is normally part of movement, and hiding immediately after a ranged attack is considered a move action. By inference, hiding after a melee attack would also be a move action.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-06-20, 08:17 AM
I don't think you can do that. Hiding is normally part of movement, and hiding immediately after a ranged attack is considered a move action. By inference, hiding after a melee attack would also be a move action.
Correct, actually. However, you can move right after a standard action (such as an attack) and hide in the process with HiPS, per RAW.

Well...if we're just giving suggestions for a level 20 'rogue-based' build, I strongly advocate Rogue/Totemist; I'm playing one right now, and trust me, you will love it.
While the combination does slow your sneak attack progression, it's well worth it; even a relatively low-level Totemist with the Double Chakra (Totem Chakra) feat can bind Threefold Mask of the Chimera and Girallon arms for a grand total of seven natural attacks; if you're playing a Thri-kreen, you qualify for multiattack, and I'm sure you can find another race that does as well; this combination allows you to apply whatever sneak attack damage you do have on a whopping eleven natural attacks- and, icing on the cake, natural attacks always qualify for weapon finesse.

As for actual level 20 rogue; personally, I don't reccomend it, but if you are going to, I have a few pieces of advice: first, maximize your UMD ranks and utilize wands to allow you to specialize further in terms of skill ranks; a wand of knock lets you eschew spending on Open Lock (depending on the campaign, perhaps an underused skill) and a Wand of charm person might let you skimp a bit on diplomacy ranks. Plus, with the right investment, wands can make you practically a secondary utility caster without a single caster level to your name.
Stay away from skill focus feats, and in point of fact, almost anything that doesn't scale with levels (such as skill mastery); skill-boosting items are remarkably inexpensive, and you could easily have spent the feats on methods that allow you to gain more attacks- Two-weapon Fighting being one, or an AoO-based build, perhaps incorporating Robilar's gambit.
More attacks per round means more chances to deal your SA damage- and, since it's not going to be much per-attack even at high levels (for comparison, many CR 6 traps deals 10d6 damage, and most don't require an attack roll) you need to deal said damage multiple times for maximum effectiveness.
As general advice, a flat bonus is a bad bet, while a bonus (or ability save DC)of x+x modifier+x level is a considerably better one.

Alveanerle
2007-06-20, 08:41 AM
Correct, actually. However, you can move right after a standard action (such as an attack) and hide in the process with HiPS, per RAW.


But you would still need some sort of cover/concealment for that, unless you also posess Camouflage ability, right?

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-06-20, 08:58 AM
But you would still need some sort of cover/concealment for that, unless you also posess Camouflage ability, right?
We're speaking of Hide in Plain Sight, which negates the need for cover of any kind when making a hide check; you may use the hide skill 'even when observed'.

Fixer
2007-06-20, 09:41 AM
As for actual level 20 rogue; personally, I don't reccomend it, but if you are going to, I have a few pieces of advice: first, maximize your UMD ranks and utilize wands to allow you to specialize further in terms of skill ranks; a wand of knock lets you eschew spending on Open Lock (depending on the campaign, perhaps an underused skill) and a Wand of charm person might let you skimp a bit on diplomacy ranks. Plus, with the right investment, wands can make you practically a secondary utility caster without a single caster level to your name.
Use Magic Device isn't just for wands. It can also be used with staves and scrolls. Get your hands on a Staff of Divination and you no longer need to use Search as often. A Staff of Evocation's Chain Lightning effect beats a wand any day. Your party doesn't even need a utility wizard around if you have access to a large quantity of scrolls.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-06-20, 09:53 AM
Use Magic Device isn't just for wands. It can also be used with staves and scrolls. Get your hands on a Staff of Divination and you no longer need to use Search as often. A Staff of Evocation's Chain Lightning effect beats a wand any day. Your party doesn't even need a utility wizard around if you have access to a large quantity of scrolls.
Entirely true and correct, actually.
UMD is, more often than not, the most versatile skill one can buy.
Unless you're in a low-magic setting, or some such.

But yes; not just for wands, though they make for a tidy example.

Saph
2007-06-20, 10:17 AM
Entirely true and correct, actually.
UMD is, more often than not, the most versatile skill one can buy.
Unless you're in a low-magic setting, or some such.

But yes; not just for wands, though they make for a tidy example.

Are you sure?

From the SRD, the uses of Use Magic Device are: Activate blindly, Decipher a written spell, Use a scroll, Use a wand, Emulate a class feature, Emulate an ability score, Emulate a race, Emulate an alignment.

So scrolls and wands, definitely. But which one of those do you use for staves?

- Saph

Jasdoif
2007-06-20, 10:40 AM
From the SRD, the uses of Use Magic Device are: Activate blindly, Decipher a written spell, Use a scroll, Use a wand, Emulate a class feature, Emulate an ability score, Emulate a race, Emulate an alignment.

So scrolls and wands, definitely. But which one of those do you use for staves? The "Use a wand" use says it works for other spell trigger items as well, and specifically mentions staffs.

Kurald Galain
2007-06-20, 10:43 AM
Emulate the class feature of having a certain spell on your spell list, which is all that's necessary for the spell trigger.

Alveanerle
2007-06-20, 10:43 AM
Are you sure?

From the SRD, the uses of Use Magic Device are: Activate blindly, Decipher a written spell, Use a scroll, Use a wand, Emulate a class feature, Emulate an ability score, Emulate a race, Emulate an alignment.

So scrolls and wands, definitely. But which one of those do you use for staves?

- Saph

I believe PHB states it explicite in the description of the UMD skill that it applies also to other spell completion and spell trigger items.

Saph
2007-06-20, 10:57 AM
Huh, so it does. Never noticed that.

Wonder how you set the DC of the spell from a staff, then - with the "Emulate ability score" use of the skill?

- Saph

Jasdoif
2007-06-20, 02:24 PM
Wonder how you set the DC of the spell from a staff, then - with the "Emulate ability score" use of the skill?Without a specific caster class in mind, I believe you would use whichever mental ability modifier (actual, not emulated) is highest.


Q240

When activating a staff with Use Magic Device, do you get your Int/Wis/Cha bonus (from your actual stat, not an emulated one) on the saving throw if it's higher then the minimum needed for the spell?
A. 240

Yes, the spell's DC isdetermined by your abilities and feats as if you had cast the spell normally.


Incidentally, a full caster with UMD can make great use of staffs. Because the UMD use for spell trigger items lets you use them "as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list", you get your full caster level and ability modifier out of it, just as you would with any other spell you cast from a staff.