Lets Build A Boat

[Dming For Noobs]

So, my PCs just hit 9th level in my aquatic/naval campaign. One of them asked if he could take the landlord feat, and use it to create a sailing ship. So far the only boats they have had were destroyed via ramming, rigging to explode, being lit on fire, and other random ways, so I agreed. He selected a Brig, and has begun the process of spending his newfound cash.

So, I just had a few questions on how to handle this.

1. I have the rules for armor plating from A&EG. But I was wondering if there might be a way to transition those over to other materials, such as Pearlsteel from Stormwrack, as that would fit the idea this character is going for. Also would prevent them from blowing it up or losing it for a stupid reason.

2. The other members of our group expressed interest in mounting a ballista on the boat, attaching a giant harpoon, and using it to go whaling/shoot boats. My question is how would you handle the opposed strength check that is required to control the harpoon? Also, could there be a better way to handle this idea of harpooning giant monsters with ship based weaponry?

3. I`m also just looking for cool ideas to add to a boat in a fantasy setting. He`s asked to put some non-combat wondrous architecture from SBG, but beyond that there is nothing to really set the ship apart as a magical vessel, carrying people as powerful as the PCs

[Eisfalken]

So, my PCs just hit 9th level in my aquatic/naval campaign. One of them asked if he could take the landlord feat, and use it to create a sailing ship. So far the only boats they have had were destroyed via ramming, rigging to explode, being lit on fire, and other random ways, so I agreed. He selected a Brig, and has begun the process of spending his newfound cash.

So, I just had a few questions on how to handle this.

1. I have the rules for armor plating from A&EG. But I was wondering if there might be a way to transition those over to other materials, such as Pearlsteel from Stormwrack, as that would fit the idea this character is going for. Also would prevent them from blowing it up or losing it for a stupid reason.

2. The other members of our group expressed interest in mounting a ballista on the boat, attaching a giant harpoon, and using it to go whaling/shoot boats. My question is how would you handle the opposed strength check that is required to control the harpoon? Also, could there be a better way to handle this idea of harpooning giant monsters with ship based weaponry?

3. I`m also just looking for cool ideas to add to a boat in a fantasy setting. He`s asked to put some non-combat wondrous architecture from SBG, but beyond that there is nothing to really set the ship apart as a magical vessel, carrying people as powerful as the PCs

Why does he need Landlord? That's a waste of feat if all you want is another sailing ship. Just go take one. Seriously, have them locate some pirates, steal their ship. Brigs are specifically listed in Stormwrack as being very favorable to pirates. No, seriously, this is the way to go on this. There's no reason whatsoever you as a DM should require them to take a feat just to get a ship; it should only take some cunning on the part of the players and a little prep by the DM.

As far as the rules for armor plating, you just need to base the costs off of the existing materials. Eyeballing adamantine in the DMG, it's about 10 times more expensive for armor, but iron plating is one-fifth as expensive. Of the cuff, I'd charge 2,000 gp per section, weight is 3,750 lb. per section. It isn't actually "stronger" than iron/steel, however; you don't get any actual defensive bonuses from having it. But the description of pearlsteel says it moves far better in water. Let's say it provides a +2 to Profession (sailor) checks, and you increase the "sink" stat by 50% (making it harder to sink the ship through damage). You can't apply it to coracles, since they don't have a rigid hull.

Harpoon action with a ship can be tricky, yes. I think I'd use a variation of grappling rules, with some variations. Substitute a Profession (sailor) check in place of a Strength check for the ship; this includes any and all normal penalties (such as using less than a full watch to run the ship); give bonuses such as synergy with Use Rope (to make sure the rope is tied properly and is in good condition). Slightly up the damage for a harpoon shot from a ballista, and give it better range (2d8, 50 ft. in light ballista; 3d8, 60 ft. in heavy ballista). If ship wishes to outright "damage opponent" in grapple, it does its size modifier in nonlethal damage. Crew on a Colossal ship must attack with reach or ranged weapons, but those in smaller ships or swimming can use any weapon (as long as they are adjacent to the creature, or within reach/range). If creature breaks free with opposed grapple check, have the rope make a saving throw against DC 10 + creature's size modifier; if the rope fails, it breaks, otherwise creature takes a final 1d8 damage and the rope can be reused.

Note that you can use some wondrous architecture in a boat, as well, like various beds, pantries, and other furniture. If you want, you can jury-rig the room enchantments and wall augmentations by rough-guessing the area/volume in the ship. For example, a caravel (the standard sailing ship of D&D) is 60x20x20, which equates to being about 6 stronghold spaces (really more like 5 when you account for the shape); the outer hull is 60x20 for wall enchantment purposes.

Don't forget that there are more options for weaponry in Heroes of Battle. But my personal favorite is the dwarven stonebow from Dragon #295; it simulates a "cannon" without the need for the messy question of gunpowder/smokepowder to be brought up (unless your DM is game, then by all means get the cannons from Stormwrack). Interestingly, if you are willing to be a little free with the rules, siege weapons don't really have "mounts" as much as spaces, which is more than fair in the game anyway (crew size limits number of gunners by default), so let them "mount" whatever you think is fair to put down in the ship's lower decks and such.


If they want a "cool" ship, you really don't need to worry with a lot of weird crap like pearlsteel plating and such. Between Stormwrack and A&EG, there should more than enough material to work with. Get a brig ship (8000 gp), trick it out with a light ballista (500 gp), 2 harpoons (30 gp), and an extra 50 bolts (50 gp). Get a dwarven stonebow as the second weapon (850 gp), and get a mix of stone shots, alchemist's stone (fire, from HoB), and firebombs (from Stormwrack); the alchemist's stone does both physical damage with a direct hit, and fire damage to the square it hits and every square around it, but the firebombs do more fire damage directly (or go with all one or the other as your go-to fire attack). I personally don't bother with davits; I just rule it takes longer to get a launch or rowboat underway without one (basically double or triple the time, depending on the situation). Ships have been loading and unloading things without extra complications, so yeah.

If you have a divine caster, have them spend every day using create water to fill barrels with drinking water, just in case; they'll probably also want to use create food and water to avoid you having to buying and carrying extra food. Glowing orb for light as mentioned, but you actually can put this in an eternal wand to avoid needing to cast it. Same with endure elements, if you don't have a warlock or dragonfire adept to do it for free; some seas are frigid places, some are tropical hells. Everfull sails are a must if you don't have someone with weather-control magic around; they cost a bit, but they are extremely worth the money. Check out Eberron for living wood and soarwood options; the former creates an actual regenerating hull, the latter makes your ship super fast but at a big cost.

Just look through SBG and A&EG for more ideas, and good luck.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why does he need Landlord? That's a waste of feat if all you want is another sailing ship. Just go take one. Seriously, have them locate some pirates, steal their ship. Brigs are specifically listed in Stormwrack as being very favorable to pirates. No, seriously, this is the way to go on this. There's no reason whatsoever you as a DM should require them to take a feat just to get a ship; it should only take some cunning on the part of the players and a little prep by the DM.

That's an option, but landlord lets you get a totally customized ship and a cash-dump to pay for it.

To the OP, have you looked at the siege weapon stuff in Heroes of Battle?

For the harpoon question; unless the ship is actually small enough for the target creature to move with its push/drag weight, just have it make a strength check to burst the rope. To that, note the existence of metal cable as described in a sidebar on the desmodu entry of MM2. If it hits another ship, I'd probably say that it breaks if they move away from each other because of the weights involved. A harpoon isn't the same thing as a series of boarding hooks tossed over the gunwhales of two ships broadside to each other.

To the question of magicalness; Magic of Eberron has some stuff about binding an elemental to a vessel. Perhaps that can breed some ideas.

Armor plating in special materials could reasonably be extrapolated from the SBG rules for building a structure with special materials.

[Swaoeaeieu]

i have never played in a campaign where i have a ship. but i do dm one. and players have lots of fun ideas.
one of them is the future purchase of this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070226a). the sorting beast is perfect to put in a room in the hold. just dump all your loot in the hold and the beast will sort it all for you.

also, a small ship is perfectly fine, since with a little bit of magic it could be easy to make the small rooms in a ship into big ones. Bigger-on-the-inside magic is quite easy to come across...

[Vogie]

I've heard harpooning whales, but I'm not sure why one would harpoon other ships. If you don't have a cannon, that could be used to take out smaller ships without having ammunition consumed. I suppose if you could harpoon a faster and larger ship you could theoretically ratchet yourself closer to board... but there'd be several more interesting & thematic things you could do for that purpose.



To the question of magicalness; Magic of Eberron has some stuff about binding an elemental to a vessel. Perhaps that can breed some ideas.
That reminds me of that airship thread that was circling a bit back... Can't find it for some reason.

A bound elemental is usually there to provide power to move the thing, but you use it for anything that a, say, steam or diesel engine could do.

[Dming For Noobs]

Why does he need Landlord? That's a waste of feat if all you want is another sailing ship. Just go take one. Seriously, have them locate some pirates, steal their ship. Brigs are specifically listed in Stormwrack as being very favorable to pirates. No, seriously, this is the way to go on this. There's no reason whatsoever you as a DM should require them to take a feat just to get a ship; it should only take some cunning on the part of the players and a little prep by the DM.

Addressing this, while I am helping create this, the PC asked me specifically about landlord feat, as he as a free slot and he wanted an incentive to build a ship without draining the parties resources.

They already plan to add wondrous architecture, and have come up with some ideas for custom stuff based of the Stormwrack spells.

I like that idea for pearlsteel, the durability is not an issue as they plan to have the wizard magically treat the ship anyway.

They do have access to cannons, due to them having an ally who is a big fan of artillery barrages. It would be perfectly feasible for them to get their hands on some.

Kelb, I do have access to Heroes of Battle, and they are planning to get some stuff out of that for their siege weapons.

Swaoeaeieu, I had read that series a few months ago, but completely forgot about it. That sounds perfect, they do seem to have constant issues with identifying loot and appraising items, so that is perfect.

What other items would you guys recommend? I already had noted everfull sails, and they can make most items they would need, due to every single PC being a caster of some flavor or another. They also are looking at a wondrous architecture version of a portable hole that is fixed, but at 1/2 the cost. I could also use the enveloping pit, but that seems excessive for the price.

[Eisfalken]

That's an option, but landlord lets you get a totally customized ship and a cash-dump to pay for it.

To clarify, I should amend that I said that to point out that while you can build an aircraft carrier with SBG and Landlord, it really depends on the DM and the campaign they are running. I treat Landlord as a lesser potential problem like Leadership: long as players and DM are talking about how to use them for the game, they are great and allowable.

My main point is that feats are a precious commodity, so be careful spending it on transportation like this. There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing it, but if you only need a little brig to sail about from place to place, it's rather silly-cheap to get one, and getting a different feat could be the difference between life and death in a dungeon or on some other plane.

I guess that's the bottom line here: what do the players actually need or want, and the most efficient way to get there. Landlord isn't bad, I only consider it mostly "inefficient" unless you just need that floating fortress. But honestly, a theurgeme or airship is perfectly fine 90% of the time; the PCs don't necessarily store treasure just to have it, they usually seem to like spending it on stuff, so they don't keep an awful lot on hand.


Addressing this, while I am helping create this, the PC asked me specifically about landlord feat, as he as a free slot and he wanted an incentive to build a ship without draining the parties resources.

No worries. You may even propose they use the stronghold as a flagship, and still buy or take other ships anyway, since you can't dock anything that's bigger than a certain size in most ports. Look at them getting a folding boat from the DMG, which can be a pinnace ship or launch. A pinnace can be rowed, making it perfect for transferring large cargo between the stronghold and a dock or beach; the launch has smaller capacity but can reach more locations easier. It's pretty cheap and a great investment; they can sneak onto shore somewhere, do stuff, and slip away with the loot on their little ship until they get back to the main "ship".


I like that idea for pearlsteel, the durability is not an issue as they plan to have the wizard magically treat the ship anyway.

Truth be told, if going with the stronghold-ship, since the floating is a magic effect it frees you to go for something else. In fact, if you want to go for cool points, go with deep coral, which has lots of hp and decent hardness; yeah, technically it's underwater-only, but you could also have them "find" this living ship somewhere as part of acquiring it via Landlord. (You might even build it yourself and hide some surprises in there for them to discover...)


They do have access to cannons, due to them having an ally who is a big fan of artillery barrages. It would be perfectly feasible for them to get their hands on some.

Well... there's two issues there. It's 100 gp per shot for a light bombard, 500 gp per shot for a great bombard, so they are really expensive to shoot. In addition, it takes longer and/or more effort to reload them; ballistas/stonebows can shoot faster than a cannon, and the stonebow actually has better damage than the light bombard. You can sort of get around the bombard shot costs by having Craft (alchemy), but the process is still costly and slow.

I'm not necessarily saying bombards aren't great, but be aware of the limitations. I like weapons that can be shot for free or for cheap, because you can still enchant them to act very similar to a cannon. A +1 distance exploding flaming dwarven stonebow is a pretty good stand-in for a cannon, and is way cheaper to shoot. Plus, just an FYI, I think you can put the quick loading on a stonebow, on the premise that A) ballistas are technically Huge crossbows, and B) the stonebow is the same, only for stone shot instead of bolts; it is more than worth it to allow a stonebow to have 100 rounds in it for +1 modifier cost. Based on what I've read, it should reduce the loading of a ballista to a single full-round action, meaning a two-person crew can fire it once a round. You can also do the same with a regular ballista, and it'll shoot little explosive darts at the enemy.

Oh, check out the Eberron book Forge of War for animated ballistas. It's a really cool idea, and you could theoretically swap out the fire-based stuff for other effects if you want. Heroes of Battle even has ballistas that shoot scorching ray attacks, like little short-range laser beams.