Extending Life Through Necromancy but not Undeath

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd swear up and down that there was an instance of a villain in one of the FR books that used some sort of dark magic (I'm presuming necromancy) to turn victims into zombie-like creatures and, in so doing, extended his life by an amount proportional to the number of such victims he made.

Does anybody know what the heck I'm talking about? I can't remember exactly what it was beyond being attached to that particular villain.

UPDATE: Answer to the original question was had in post 4. More general alignment and in-game reality discussion now ongoing.

[Segev]

I believe you're looking for a "prolonger." I have not seen their mechanics; I only ran into one in another person's game at one point.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I believe you're looking for a "prolonger." I have not seen their mechanics; I only ran into one in another person's game at one point.

That doesn't ring any bells. I want to say the villain in question has something to do with old netheril? Like I said though, thte only thing I'm certain of is that it was definitely in a Forgotten Realms book.

[Jowgen]

You are talking about the creation of a Living Zombie from Champions of Ruin. Embed a piece of yourself in another creature and cast Dominate, Feeblemind, False Life and command undead as part of a ritual that costs 1000 gp and takes 6 hours to create one. For each one you have, your aging slows by 50%.

For capital E- Evil immortality, it combos nicely with Steal Life (BoVD)

[Rethmar]

Hey, I think you're looking for Aumvor the Undying, in the Champions of Ruin.

He's a lich now, but it says he sustained himself through his creation of 'living zombies' before his turn to undeath.

edit: 2 minutes too slow :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

You are talking about the creation of a Living Zombie from Champions of Ruin. Embed a piece of yourself in another creature and cast Dominate, Feeblemind, False Life and command undead as part of a ritual that costs 1000 gp and takes 6 hours to create one. For each one you have, your aging slows by 50%.

For capital E- Evil immortality, it combos nicely with Steal Life (BoVD)

Not only is that him, but that's the plan I had in mind. 3 or 4 living zombies to keep me going and eat a hobo every couple years to be young and powerful for as long as I care to do so.

[Andezzar]

For each one you have, your aging slows by 50%.Does that mean you do not age at all if you have two, or is it slowed by 75%?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does that mean you do not age at all if you have two, or is it slowed by 75%?

The latter. The living zombie template gives the answer in its description. You can have one living zombie per point of casting stat' bonus and each one cuts the amount of reamaining aging in half. 1=50%, 2=25%, 3=12.5%, and so on.

[Jowgen]

Does that mean you do not age at all if you have two, or is it slowed by 75%?

75%, you can have as many as the modifier on your primary casting stat. Having a few can really up your life expectancy. Having 5 different ones will have you age at a rate of 3.125%, around 11-12 days a year. Have 10 of them, and you age 8-9 hours every year instead.

Template can be explcitly added to animals (not even size matters), and since none of the ritual spells are Evil, you should be able to pull this off without being Evil. Get yourself some really long lived animals that needs minimal up-keep and store them somewhere (a Cabinet of Stasis, SBG, would be ideal).

[Coidzor]

You are talking about the creation of a Living Zombie from Champions of Ruin. Embed a piece of yourself in another creature and cast Dominate, Feeblemind, False Life and command undead as part of a ritual that costs 1000 gp and takes 6 hours to create one. For each one you have, your aging slows by 50%.

For capital E- Evil immortality, it combos nicely with Steal Life (BoVD)

Finally, a use for all those extraneous elves!

[Kelb_Panthera]

75%, you can have as many as the modifier on your primary casting stat. Having a few can really up your life expectancy. Having 5 different ones will have you age at a rate of 3.125%, around 11-12 days a year. Have 10 of them, and you age 8-9 hours every year instead.

Template can be explcitly added to animals (not even size matters), and since none of the ritual spells are Evil, you should be able to pull this off without being Evil. Get yourself some really long lived animals that needs minimal up-keep and store them somewhere (a Cabinet of Stasis, SBG, would be ideal).

Maybe, but if you nab a couple elans there's no upkeep and you can actually use them for minor servitude. Same for warforged, I think. Neither will ever die of old age and neither can starve. Put them to work in your sanctum as minor servants; dusting, sweeping, folding laundry, etc; stuff that requires no thought to speak of and is both repetitive and essentially endless. Besides; you're still going to have to eat the occasional hobo with steal life. Even with 10 living zombies you're still aging at a rate of 1:1024. I guess you -could- work off the evil of eating a hobo one every millenium but why would you want to?

[Jowgen]

I guess you -could- work off the evil of eating a hobo one every millenium but why would you want to?

I'm just really not a fan of how it's always Evil that gets to cheat death. Good never gets the fun stuff. :smallmad:

For eating the hobo without an alignment hit, first you'd need to get rid of the Evil-descriptor on Steal Life; which I think (not 100%) can be done via Consecrate spell. Then I think its either a matter of convincing the hobo to be eaten out of his own free will (e.g. old dying man lets himself be eating in exchange for grand-child colledge fund) and doing it in a painless fashion (Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain?).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm just really not a fan of how it's always Evil that gets to cheat death. Good never gets the fun stuff. :smallmad:

For eating the hobo without an alignment hit, first you'd need to get rid of the Evil-descriptor on Steal Life; which I think (not 100%) can be done via Consecrate spell. Then I think its either a matter of convincing the hobo to be eaten out of his own free will (e.g. old dying man lets himself be eating in exchange for grand-child colledge fund) and doing it in a painless fashion (Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain?).

There are non-evil means of achieving endless life. There are almost no inherently good ones and I can kinda see why. Seeking immortality is an inherently selfish thing; not evil, mind, just selfish. Being good is all about being selfless; aiding others without expectations of reward, punishing the wicked so they can't or won't prey on the innocent, more generally preventing harm from befalling anyone unjustly, and so on. Becoming immortal doesn't directly aid in accomplishing any of these ideas. That said, there is the beloved of valerian PrC.

On the neutral side; become an elan, become a cloud anchorite, renegade masermaker -might- do it, and there might be a few others. On a practical level, if you buy into the idea that you can choose the time trait of your demiplane via genesis or planeswalker, you can set your body in a plane with the flowing time trait with it set 100:1, material:demiplane and roam about the world via astral projection. You act normally on the material while your body ages one year for every hundred that passes on the material.

[frogglesmash]

Assuming you use animals in stasis or something similar for your living zombies, the random hobos are compensated, provided with some sort of sedative/other pain reduction method, is not drained to the point of death, and is given' the benefit of several restoration spells there's nothing inherently evil about the process save for the evil descriptor on the Steal life Spell. Hell, you could even have a special "Youthening Chamber" with comfy chairs, a trap of restoration, and the aforementioned nippleclamps.

[Kraken]

I'm just really not a fan of how it's always Evil that gets to cheat death. Good never gets the fun stuff. :smallmad:

For eating the hobo without an alignment hit, first you'd need to get rid of the Evil-descriptor on Steal Life; which I think (not 100%) can be done via Consecrate spell. Then I think its either a matter of convincing the hobo to be eaten out of his own free will (e.g. old dying man lets himself be eating in exchange for grand-child colledge fund) and doing it in a painless fashion (Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain?).

PAO a rock into a creature. Turning a rock into a human would work, but you could always choose to be more picky and go for something with higher ability scores. Choose whatever manner of mitigating their suffering and removing the evil descriptor if you wish, regardless, ultimately you're only stealing from a rock anyway. Conveniently, you have total control over the rock-person's environment when they're brought to life too.

[Jowgen]

Assuming you use animals in stasis or something similar for your living zombies, the random hobos are compensated, provided with some sort of sedative/other pain reduction method, is not drained to the point of death, and is given' the benefit of several restoration spells there's nothing inherently evil about the process save for the evil descriptor on the Steal life Spell. Hell, you could even have a special "Youthening Chamber" with comfy chairs, a trap of restoration, and the aforementioned nippleclamps.

Lets go with a piece of wondrous architecture. Two solid stone chairs that share a backrest, which should cost 8 x 15 x 500 = 60000 gp (plus 1450). Get a binder with Naberius bound into the chair that has the donator and someone else in the other. Every hour, the chair drains one point from each ability score, which Naberius heals back. So that's 6 weeks younger you get per hour at no detriment to the donor. Even on a summer night, that should allow for over 1 year of youth to be restored. Obviously you could go much further by just switching out donors, but I feel the perpetual single donor thing has more flavor. :smalltongue:

The only thing that's missing is how to get the benefit of a perpetual full moon night.

EDIT: Or just use a bed of restoration. Its another 38000 gp, but that's it. An eternal youth machine for 99450 gp. I'd make it a flat 100000 gp to account for the cost of the stone chairs. Also, considering its only good for 1 night a month, I'd probably knock the price down some, since that's a pretty severe limitation.

[Bronk]

That doesn't ring any bells. I want to say the villain in question has something to do with old netheril? Like I said though, thte only thing I'm certain of is that it was definitely in a Forgotten Realms book.

There was also Ioulaum, a netherese mage who transformed himself into the form of an undead elder brain.

There are ways for good guys to cheat death though, they're just not as interesting. If a character isn't already immortal, they can always wish themselves into an immortal body like some of the fey or most of the outsiders. They might not get all of the powers of the new body unless the caster has tricked out the spellcraft skill, but they should still be mostly good to go.

[atemu1234]

There was also Ioulaum, a netherese mage who transformed himself into the form of an undead elder brain.

There are ways for good guys to cheat death though, they're just not as interesting. If a character isn't already immortal, they can always wish themselves into an immortal body like some of the fey or most of the outsiders. They might not get all of the powers of the new body unless the caster has tricked out the spellcraft skill, but they should still be mostly good to go.

Ioulaum is an interesting case.

[Inevitability]

75%, you can have as many as the modifier on your primary casting stat. Having a few can really up your life expectancy. Having 5 different ones will have you age at a rate of 3.125%, around 11-12 days a year. Have 10 of them, and you age 8-9 hours every year instead.

Template can be explcitly added to animals (not even size matters), and since none of the ritual spells are Evil, you should be able to pull this off without being Evil. Get yourself some really long lived animals that needs minimal up-keep and store them somewhere (a Cabinet of Stasis, SBG, would be ideal).

Did you say long-lived animals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_dohrnii)?

[AmberVael]

Besides; you're still going to have to eat the occasional hobo with steal life. Even with 10 living zombies you're still aging at a rate of 1:1024. I guess you -could- work off the evil of eating a hobo one every millenium but why would you want to?


For eating the hobo without an alignment hit, first you'd need to get rid of the Evil-descriptor on Steal Life; which I think (not 100%) can be done via Consecrate spell. Then I think its either a matter of convincing the hobo to be eaten out of his own free will (e.g. old dying man lets himself be eating in exchange for grand-child colledge fund) and doing it in a painless fashion (Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain?).

You know, technically with Steal Life you can go out during the full moon and scream with agony while draining your own physical abilities to make yourself younger. It just says "one living humanoid," doesn't say it has to be someone else.

Eternal life, brought to you by the power of masochism! :smalltongue:

[khadgar567]

You know, technically with Steal Life you can go out during the full moon and scream with agony while draining your own physical abilities to make yourself younger. It just says "one living humanoid," doesn't say it has to be someone else.

Eternal life, brought to you by the power of masochism! :smalltongue:

for sake of adding your steal life idea here is infamous unlimited succubus works builded by giant forum

1. Planar Bind a Mirror Mephit, which has Simulacrum 1/day as a spell-like ability.
2. Cut off one of its fingers.*
3. Use the finger to make a Simulacrum of it (with the actual spell).
4. Order the Mirror Mephit Simulacrum to make another Mirror Mephit Simulacrum, giving you two in total.
5. The next day, order both Mirror Mephit Simulacra to each make a Mirror Mephit Simulacrum, giving you four in total.
6. The next day, order all four Mirror Mephit Simulacra to each make a Mirror Mephit Simulacrum, giving you eight in total.
7. Repeat until you feel you have enough Mirror Mephit Simulacra.
8. Order them all to start making Succubus Simulacra instead and to keep doing so every day for the rest of eternity.
9. Occasionally take one of your Succubus Simulacra to somewhere on the Material Plane that the moon is full and cast Steal Life on it, thereby allowing you to stay young forever.

10. Enjoy your Unlimited Succubus Works for all eternity.
safe immortality for your any needs

[AmberVael]

for sake of adding your steal life idea here is infamous unlimited succubus works builded by giant forum

1) This has basically nothing to do with my suggestion.
2) It doesn't work. See: "One living humanoid."

[khadgar567]

1) This has basically nothing to do with my suggestion.
2) It doesn't work. See: "One living humanoid."

not my work amber one of the guys in grods down time treat

[Necroticplague]

Y'know, some of the loops you people are going through to get Life Drain without suffering of another is kinda ridiculous when the easiest solution is right their: It says it has a target one "one humanoid". If you're a humanoid, no reason you can't drain your own life to extend your lifespan. A dip into binder, and you could turn back the clock by half a year in a night, and only be drained for a day. if you're willing to make your own recovery period a bit longer, you could probably undo a whole year (as long as nothing reaches zero). Shame it's Drain and not damage, though (otherwise, could shave off years every night).

EDIT: Dammit, realized Amber said the same thing, and beat me to it.

[Psyren]

I'm just really not a fan of how it's always Evil that gets to cheat death. Good never gets the fun stuff. :smallmad:

Why would a good guy want to? They have eternal bliss waiting, and also clearing the board to make room for future heroes, a very good thing to do. Evil meanwhile has a reason to stick around, their afterlives suck ass. (Especially in Faerun - who'd want to hang out with Talos, Bane, Shar or Malar for eternity? Cyric? Loviatar? Talona? And just allowing yourself to die at all would piss off Velsharoon etc.)

[Jowgen]

Did you say long-lived animals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_dohrnii)?

Immortality via Jellyfish would be cool, but sadly; living zombie is limited to creatures with skeletons. Now a Lobster could work, since it as an exoskeleton, and is the next best thing in terms of hefty life expectancy (could be immortal if you can prevent them from dying due to exhaustion while moulting), but while their existence is aknowledged, they certainly don't have a stat block.

[Necroticplague]

Why would a good guy want to? They have eternal bliss waiting, and also clearing the board to make room for future heroes, a very good thing to do. Evil meanwhile has a reason to stick around, their afterlives suck ass. (Especially in Faerun - who'd want to hang out with Talos, Bane, Shar or Malar for eternity? Cyric? Loviatar? Talona? And just allowing yourself to die at all would piss off Velsharoon etc.)

What sucks about the Evil afterlifes? Sure, it's hard work, but that just means you don't get bored. You get a stimulating environment full of like-minded people with an active goal to work towards. Keeping in mind that the "goal to work towards" is essentially freaking godhood. Sure, the first week out of an eternity sucks, but after that it doesn't seem too bad (and as a bonus, you'll eventually be in the position to inflict upon others what was inflicted upon you!).

[Psyren]

What sucks about the Evil afterlifes? Sure, it's hard work, but that just means you don't get bored. You get a stimulating environment full of like-minded people with an active goal to work towards. Keeping in mind that the "goal to work towards" is essentially freaking godhood. Sure, the first week out of an eternity sucks, but after that it doesn't seem too bad (and as a bonus, you'll eventually be in the position to inflict upon others what was inflicted upon you!).

Only the "luckiest" few get put on the promotion track, and even most of those have to endure a great deal of torture first to break them down so they can be remade. The vast majority of petitioners in the evil afterlives are simply used as fodder, sport or raw materials.

Every dedicated evil soul believes *they* are the special snowflake that will get to skip all that and go straight to being a chain devil or something. Most don't.

[Andezzar]

What sucks about the Evil afterlifes? Sure, it's hard work, but that just means you don't get bored. You get a stimulating environment full of like-minded people with an active goal to work towards. Keeping in mind that the "goal to work towards" is essentially freaking godhood. Sure, the first week out of an eternity sucks, but after that it doesn't seem too bad (and as a bonus, you'll eventually be in the position to inflict upon others what was inflicted upon you!).This is something I never understood, why would anyone aspire to an afterlife with lots of creatures that are at least as ruthless as one's self? The reason for doing evil is often seeing it as the easier option. Trying to do evil to people who are expecting it and are willing and able to do the same to you, does not sound easy to me. It might be interesting, but as a German TV cook once said, interesting is the little brother of ****ty.

[Red Fel]

First off, let me just leave this here.

http://irafay.com/DDM/img/creatures/8/9.jpg

Carry on, citizens.


This is something I never understood, why would anyone aspire to an afterlife with lots of creatures that are at least as ruthless as one's self? The reason for doing evil is often seeing it as the easier option. Trying to do evil to people who are expecting it and are willing and able to do the same to you, does not sound easy to me. It might be interesting, but as a German TV cook once said, interesting is the little brother of ****ty.

Two reasons.

First, most people choose Evil because now, not because later. They aren't thinking about later. That's the trick to great temptation; desperate souls will do anything, even something they know will hurt later, if they can just fix now.

Second, those who do think about later are frequently of a more ambitious, philosophical, or deluded bent. If ambitious, they have their eyes on the prize; they think that, with enough guile and skill, they can be the rare exception who reaches the top of the pile. If philosophical, they look forward to the opportunity to sharpen their instincts squaring off against the most cunning, ruthless, vicious individuals to have ever lived - even if they lose, they learn. If deluded, they have their eyes on the prize; they think that, with enough guile and skill, they can be the rare exception who reaches the top of the pile. (You may have noticed the similarity to ambitious. That's not coincidence.)

The first one is all about easy - Evil always offers the easy way out. The second is all about hard - the ideologically Evil always welcome a challenge. Usually, though, it's one they think they can beat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

@RedFel

If you can swing 8th level spells around, maruts aren't really much of a concern. Even massed they're not especially challenging though I suppose a classed marut built specifically to kill you will turn up eventually. Besides, it's not like maruts get sent after every undead, ever. Avoid doing anything to draw the attention of the powers that be on mechanus and you should be fine.

[Psyren]

This is something I never understood, why would anyone aspire to an afterlife with lots of creatures that are at least as ruthless as one's self? The reason for doing evil is often seeing it as the easier option. Trying to do evil to people who are expecting it and are willing and able to do the same to you, does not sound easy to me. It might be interesting, but as a German TV cook once said, interesting is the little brother of ****ty.

Not only are your fellow petitioners likely to be jackholes, so is the entire power structure. Just look at what Menzoberranzan is like under Lolth's influence - populated by arses, backstab central, and that's just a mortal city. Some of them turn out good, and some of those even survive and manage to escape (through the help of Eilistraee or others) but for the majority, you either become ruthless or you die early, often both. So how much worse would it be in Lolth's very planar domain, the Demonweb Pits?



Two reasons.

First, most people choose Evil because now, not because later. They aren't thinking about later. That's the trick to great temptation; desperate souls will do anything, even something they know will hurt later, if they can just fix now.

Second, those who do think about later are frequently of a more ambitious, philosophical, or deluded bent. If ambitious, they have their eyes on the prize; they think that, with enough guile and skill, they can be the rare exception who reaches the top of the pile. If philosophical, they look forward to the opportunity to sharpen their instincts squaring off against the most cunning, ruthless, vicious individuals to have ever lived - even if they lose, they learn. If deluded, they have their eyes on the prize; they think that, with enough guile and skill, they can be the rare exception who reaches the top of the pile. (You may have noticed the similarity to ambitious. That's not coincidence.)

The first one is all about easy - Evil always offers the easy way out. The second is all about hard - the ideologically Evil always welcome a challenge. Usually, though, it's one they think they can beat.

Indeed, that explains why they do it - the majority are sorely mistaken/misguided about what things will be like when they get there. That high priest who dedicated himself to Shar's designs all his life is likely to find that the goddess takes a very dim view of failure.

[ATHATH]

Is there a way to strip the "can't understand or comprehend language" quality off of Living Zombies? Without it, you could buff them with stat boosting items until they become competent and completely loyal minions.

[Necroticplague]

The benefit of being surrounded by the ruthless is meritocracy. That alone provides a benefit. Not a devil or demon claims it position without a right to hold it through competence. In real life, we have nepotism, irrelevant seniority, and sentimentality get in the way of our orginizations running smoothly. Fiendish organizations are brutally effecient machines, fueled by everyone's collective greed. A good soul may live a pleasent, inundate resting life forever without a shred of care for power, never tasting greatness. An evil one sees greatness all around, and desires it for themselves. Orcus, a demon lord, a being of power such that the mere echo after he was struck down still contains might ( as the tenebrous vestige), was once one of the innumerable fodder mentioned before. Hell and The Pits are a capitalist dream world, where you can start with nothing, and end up with everything through nought but your own guile, might, and cunning.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The benefit of being surrounded by the ruthless is meritocracy. That alone provides a benefit. Not a devil or demon claims it position without a right to hold it through competence. In real life, we have nepotism, irrelevant seniority, and sentimentality get in the way of our orginizations running smoothly. Fiendish organizations are brutally effecient machines, fueled by everyone's collective greed. A good soul may live a pleasent, inundate resting life forever without a shred of care for power, never tasting greatness. An evil one sees greatness all around, and desires it for themselves. Orcus, a demon lord, a being of power such that the mere echo after he was struck down still contains might ( as the tenebrous vestige), was once one of the innumerable fodder mentioned before. Hell and The Pits are a capitalist dream world, where you can start with nothing, and end up with everything through nought but your own guile, might, and cunning.

Devils are extremely prone to nepotism because of how the soul flow works and their division amongst their ranks. The nepotism isn't quite what we normally think of with the term but there's use to be had in putting someone less qualified ahead of underlings can both ensure that they'll focus their resentment and backstabbery at the "incompetent" rather than their boss and serve as a test to those beneath him. Asmodeus set the precedent on this one by deposing his only loyal minion after the reckoning and by placing his daughter on the throne of the fifth layer with no apparent regard for her previous layabout behvior or the successes of the hag queen.

If you can't expect uncorrupted meritocracy from creatures comprised, in part, of pure Law then where in the lower realms can you expect it?

[Segev]

Demons, too, are susceptible to inefficiency; the incompetent cling to their positions through threats and exploitation of power that they have in irrelevant (to the job) areas, and use their power and energy to take and compel rather than to produce and create (unless forced to by somebody stronger). This wastes a great deal of what could be more productively invested.

[Jowgen]

You know, if OP is fine with it, I say we should totally commit to this alignment discussion thread derail, although without Red Fel, it wouldn't be quite complete. Red Fel would be the perfect guy to argue the LE side of things. If only he were here. Red Fel, I mean.

I do personally think that most E-vil mortals are quite misinformed about their awaiting experience down under, and would probably re-think their life choices if they know the full truth. Just goes to show that the lower planes (Baator in particular) are just plain up stellar at marketing their product.

I do find equating a G-ood alignment afterlife to a state of tranquility as opposed one of competion interesting, though. Some truth to that, I wager. Very market-able truth.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You know, if OP is fine with it, I say we should totally commit to this alignment discussion thread derail, although without Red Fel, it wouldn't be quite complete. Red Fel would be the perfect guy to argue the LE side of things. If only he were here. Red Fel, I mean.

I do personally think that most E-vil mortals are quite misinformed about their awaiting experience down under, and would probably re-think their life choices if they know the full truth. Just goes to show that the lower planes (Baator in particular) are just plain up stellar at marketing their product.

I do find equating a G-ood alignment afterlife to a state of tranquility as opposed one of competion interesting, though. Some truth to that, I wager. Very market-able truth.

Fine by me, my answer was had on post 4.

I'm of the opinion that most all mortals are either grossly misinformed or uninformed on what waits in the great beyond.

You frequently see it pointed out that, "Of course people know what the afterlife is like. Look at all this evidence." I disagree. For one thing, the people that can access this evidence are rare. At one point I used some extrapolations from the DMG's demographics tables and came to the conclusion that spellcasters on the whole make up less than 10% of the population of the world and only a tiny fraction of them are capable of casting spells that allow planar travel and calling effects. For another, the people that can access such evidence are divided into myriad groups; churches of dozens of gods, arcanists of various faiths or perhaps none at all, and spirit talkers. The only conclusive evidence that can be shown to someone that there is, in fact, an afterlife at all is to conjure up a dead relative and even that would have to be taken with a grain of salt, illusions and mind-reading being things of which spellcasters are capable.

It's easy for us outside the system to see the whole picture and understand. For Joe Blow the dirt farmer, though, he's got a cleric of pelor telling him one thing, a cleric of chauntea telling him something slightly different, and a cleric of malar telliing him those two are full of crap. Meanwhile his neighbor the wizard says that all the churches are full of crap and corruption (it might even be true) and that Joe should examine things for himself rather than listen to those clowns. The local bard tells him stories of good mages putting devils to righteous work (malkonvoker) and of evil men bending angels to their will (planar binding). What's a guy supposed to believe with all these crossed signals? Even old uncle Jim having been conjured by the priest of jurgal to tell us where the will is might've been an illusion like at the wizardry festival in the city last year. All there is for such characters is faith that -someone- amongst all this lot is telling the truth and to pick one of them to believe. That or to go nihilist and presume that when you're dead you're just worm-food.

With all this in mind, one might also come to the realization that detect <alignment> might also come accross as detect <like mindedness> or detect <moral/ethical opposition>.

Small wonder mortals can be duped into thinking that tryanny is just and right and that being good at it will earn them anything other than what's actually coming to them, IMO.

[Knight Magenta]

What everyone forgets is that all petitioners lose all memories they had of their lives. Your memories make up who you are. The petitioner that you become is just a new creature made of your recycled soul-stuff. So it really does not matter which afterlife you go to.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What everyone forgets is that all petitioners lose all memories they had of their lives. Your memories make up who you are. The petitioner that you become is just a new creature made of your recycled soul-stuff. So it really does not matter which afterlife you go to.

They only forget these things gradually over time. You don't just pop up in the afterlife going, "Who am I and what am I doing here?"

From what I can tell, the fading of memory is an effect of the divine power (read XP) gradually bleeding off of the petitioner to fuel the plane itself and the outsiders that spring from it. They lose access to this power when becoming a petitioner unless they're chosen by some power (i.e. a deity) to become a more powerful form of outsider. Devils rush the process by rendering down peptitioners like crude oil until the divine power is extracted and a lemure is created. They kinda have to to keep up with the endless power of chaos springing from the abyss. It's all right there in the lore if you read... basically everything about the planes and souls.

[Red Fel]

You know, if OP is fine with it, I say we should totally commit to this alignment discussion thread derail, although without Red Fel, it wouldn't be quite complete. Red Fel would be the perfect guy to argue the LE side of things. If only he were here. Red Fel, I mean.

I do personally think that most E-vil mortals are quite misinformed about their awaiting experience down under, and would probably re-think their life choices if they know the full truth. Just goes to show that the lower planes (Baator in particular) are just plain up stellar at marketing their product.

I do find equating a G-ood alignment afterlife to a state of tranquility as opposed one of competion interesting, though. Some truth to that, I wager. Very market-able truth.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iycaz-ZAaXw/TxNLOjQv93I/AAAAAAAAAoA/ceLXKbC-trM/s1600/patrick-harris-see-what-you-did-there.gif

I see what you did there.

I already chimed in, mate. Something something, picture of a Marut, something something, two reasons, something something, ambitious and deluded.

If you thought it was all in your head though, then I'm clearly doing it right.

Bottom line: Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (the planes) are not trained skills. And that's a sentence.

[Rhedyn]

They only forget these things gradually over time. You don't just pop up in the afterlife going, "Who am I and what am I doing here?"

From what I can tell, the fading of memory is an effect of the divine power (read XP) gradually bleeding off of the petitioner to fuel the plane itself and the outsiders that spring from it. They lose access to this power when becoming a petitioner unless they're chosen by some power (i.e. a deity) to become a more powerful form of outsider. Devils rush the process by rendering down peptitioners like crude oil until the divine power is extracted and a lemure is created. They kinda have to to keep up with the endless power of chaos springing from the abyss. It's all right there in the lore if you read... basically everything about the planes and souls. That sounds horrific.

It's like how in PF solars can be made from several good souls mashed together. The afterlife is bleak in these universes.

I prefer how order of the stick does it, where their are elements of mystery in the higher planes as though those that go there are basically ascending while the lower planes result in endless misery. What you describe is every plane basically being a form of purgatory.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That sounds horrific.

It's like how in PF solars can be made from several good souls mashed together. The afterlife is bleak in these universes.

I prefer how order of the stick does it, where their are elements of mystery in the higher planes as though those that go there are basically ascending while the lower planes result in endless misery. What you describe is every plane basically being a form of purgatory.

You have to look at the big picture; the material worlds were made to act as a fuel source for the outer realms. Gradually fading away so that their divine essence could be harvested is what mortals were created to do. They're born, they cultivate that power (through the gain of XP), then they die and that power enriches the plane they're sent to for their afterife. In the celestial realms the souls are allowed to break down naturally. It's a process slow enough that the souls of the dead, the planes' petitioners, don't even realize it's happening and they're allowed to live comfortably in what they would consider a pretty idyllic state. In the lower realms, however, the process is... accelerated in various ways; ways that are mostly best left to the imagination.

[AmberVael]

You have to look at the big picture; the material worlds were made to act as a fuel source for the outer realms. Gradually fading away so that their divine essence could be harvested is what mortals were created to do. They're born, they cultivate that power (through the gain of XP), then they die and that power enriches the plane they're sent to for their afterife. In the celestial realms the souls are allowed to break down naturally. It's a process slow enough that the souls of the dead, the planes' petitioners, don't even realize it's happening and they're allowed to live comfortably in what they would consider a pretty idyllic state. In the lower realms, however, the process is... accelerated in various ways; ways that are mostly best left to the imagination.

Yeah, this doesn't sound really creepy and degrading at all.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, this doesn't sound really creepy and degrading at all.

It's just the circle of life; extended edition. A cow is born, it grows in size as it feeds on the grass, it dies and breaks down to enrich the earth and the cycle begins again.

If it makes you feel any better, there's some lore that points toward reincarnation being a thing after the soul decays completely in the outer realms. It's not much but it's there.

[atemu1234]

Yeah, this doesn't sound really creepy and degrading at all.

Creepy and degrading aside, he's actually basically right, though it's mostly subtextual and the link to XP doesn't exist in any canonical material I've read.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Creepy and degrading aside, he's actually basically right, though it's mostly subtextual and the link to XP doesn't exist in any canonical material I've read.

The correlation is a very clear extrapolation from the fact that the Baatezu value the souls of higher level creatures more than lower level creatures in a very linear fashion as outlined in the faustian pact rules from FC2. Since the only way to gain levels, for the vast majority of creatures, is to gain XP and level up. The conclusion that XP -is- the divine power being harvested is pretty solid if not entirely conclusive.

[Jack_Simth]

The latter. The living zombie template gives the answer in its description. You can have one living zombie per point of casting stat' bonus and each one cuts the amount of reamaining aging in half. 1=50%, 2=25%, 3=12.5%, and so on.

Almost right. One tiny little caveat to that is that you can control one living zombie per point of casting stat bonus, but there's no mention of control being necessary for the age benefit; they're in different sections. So theoretically you could make a hundred of them, keep the few under your control as essentially mindless household servants, and pack the rest up with rings of sustenance and drop them in cabinets of stasis.As to the afterlife bit? Fun thing: While Clerics must be within one step... worshippers can be within two. So that Lawful-Evil warlord can pay lip service to worship a Lawful-Good deity, and that Chaotic-Evil assassin can pay lip service to worship a Chaotic-Good deity... if they're bright enough to try that route. Gets them out of the torment thing.

[Knight Magenta]

They only forget these things gradually over time. You don't just pop up in the afterlife going, "Who am I and what am I doing here?"

From what I can tell, the fading of memory is an effect of the divine power (read XP) gradually bleeding off of the petitioner to fuel the plane itself and the outsiders that spring from it. They lose access to this power when becoming a petitioner unless they're chosen by some power (i.e. a deity) to become a more powerful form of outsider. Devils rush the process by rendering down peptitioners like crude oil until the divine power is extracted and a lemure is created. They kinda have to to keep up with the endless power of chaos springing from the abyss. It's all right there in the lore if you read... basically everything about the planes and souls.


So I am not quite correct :p I play PF so I only really read the petitioner template. Still my point is that higher or lower plane, there is no immortal afterlife. Everyone face oblivion. Good, evil, lawful stupid. The question is, do you want a slow death in an idyllic environment, or do you want a chance to fight for your immortality?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So I am not quite correct :p I play PF so I only really read the petitioner template. Still my point is that higher or lower plane, there is no immortal afterlife. Everyone face oblivion. Good, evil, lawful stupid. The question is, do you want a slow death in an idyllic environment, or do you want a chance to fight for your immortality?

Because of the nature of probability and an infinite set; you -will- be absorbed into the plane. If you become a powerful devil, you'll still -eventually- be killed in battle at some point. Nothing lasts forever. If you're worried about immortality, get some magic together and get you some immortality. Don't just wait around for it to be given to you. That's not going to happen.

[Psyren]

It's like how in PF solars can be made from several good souls mashed together. The afterlife is bleak in these universes.

Why is that bleak? Can you imagine the souls of 10 good farmers combining to make a Solar? Think of the much, much higher capacity for good deeds they now have. Furthermore, I'd wager that the whole point of the exercise is to merge with folks who overall share your outlook and goals, so it's not even like you're really losing much of what makes you you. Those individuals would be hard to find, sure, but that's why Solars are so rare.

[atemu1234]

Why is that bleak? Can you imagine the souls of 10 good farmers combining to make a Solar? Think of the much, much higher capacity for good deeds they now have. Furthermore, I'd wager that the whole point of the exercise is to merge with folks who overall share your outlook and goals, so it's not even like you're really losing much of what makes you you. Those individuals would be hard to find, sure, but that's why Solars are so rare.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that over time, spending time on a plane causes you to become more and more akin to the plane and it's inhabitants. Essentially, you are always losing a bit of yourself, but in a less noticeable way (after all, it takes millenia, and you were already similar to the plane to begin with). By the time your soul merges into Solar, odds are you don't even remember your mortal time anymore.

[Segev]

Perhaps it is not a loss of self, any more than a drunkard going through AA is losing himself as he overcomes his habit, establishes new behaviors, and sets out to be more the kind of man he wants to be.

I'm now actually envisioning a story set in one of the Celestial afterlives, where a group of petitioners get together and start being heroes. As they become better friends, the closest of them learn to occasionally perform a fusion into a greater kind of celestial (maybe a lantern archon or a lesser deva). As more of these pairs form, some of the fusions start fusing into greater angels or archons, as they become more compatible.


Lower planer versions might be darker, as at first, weak and disaffected (or even will-broken) lemures or manes merge into lower-class fiends, which struggle to keep it together. Literally. Or, they get devoured by higher-ranking fiends.

The higher-ranking fiends consuming lesser beings extract what they can from them, and may choose to fully absorb them...or may spit back out another tormented wreck of a least fiend (manes, lemures, etc). If they choose to actually absorb the "morsel," they do get overall stronger, a step closer to being a greater kind of fiend. But they also are adding that morsel's personality to their own. It's already a powerful amalgam, so it may be a slight change, but it's a change. And if you change enough things, you might become someone else, so the fiends are careful, picky about what traits they consider adding. Well, some are. Others are greedy gluttons...at least until that changes due to adding so many random personality traits that eventually the amalgam is no longer so blasé about being changed.

[Coidzor]

Err... Isn't it the other way around?

The inner planes created the material and the outer planes didn't know jack about mortals untuil their souls started popping up in them and altering things and being altered in turn, especially in the abyss?

[Jowgen]

I see what you did there.

I already chimed in, mate. Something something, picture of a Marut, something something, two reasons, something something, ambitious and deluded.

If you thought it was all in your head though, then I'm clearly doing it right.

Bottom line: Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (the planes) are not trained skills. And that's a sentence.

My bad, must've replied off a tab I didn't refresh first or something. :smallredface: