Perfect prison?

[Jowgen]

I am curious about good things to use to build a truly secure prison. Now I don't want to store creatures in stasis or turned to stone or whatever else would work as a more secure form of containment. I literally am just curious about good ways to make a building full of rooms (that aren't extradimensional) that can keep things in really effectively.

To keep things interesting, no anti-magic fields (or dead magic planar traits, etc.) either. Prisoners must be able to walk around their cells and use whatever abilities they have at their disposal all day long, while receiving three square meals a day and such.

So yeah, how would you go about building your own personal Alkatraz? Points for coolness apply. :smallbiggrin:

[khadgar567]

I am curious about good things to use to build a truly secure prison. Now I don't want to store creatures in stasis or turned to stone or whatever else would work as a more secure form of containment. I literally am just curious about good ways to make a building full of rooms (that aren't extradimensional) that can keep things in really effectively.

To keep things interesting, no anti-magic fields (or dead magic planar traits, etc.) either. Prisoners must be able to walk around their cells and use whatever abilities they have at their disposal all day long, while receiving three square meals a day and such.

So yeah, how would you go about building your own personal Alkatraz? Points for coolness apply. :smallbiggrin:

Just out of main gate a trap summoning void stone on spot secure as ever might well as open the gate for more fun

[Inevitability]

First things first: block teleportation. Forbiddance should work.

Secondly, how about keeping all prisoners under multiple False Sensory Inputs and a Detect Thoughts to make them feel like they are doing whatever they want to do (escape, walk around, kill people). Technically, they aren't locked in statis and they're still 'walking around in their cell and eating their meals', they just don't consciously realize that.

[Vogie]

Obviously if you're talking about a physical prison in the existing world, you'd need to have some way to stop fly and teleportation effects. You mentioned Alcatraz, so that's one place to start, although the idea can scale up to a full fledged penal colony.

If you want it harder to place (therefore hard to fly away from), you could make a massive prison ship, similar to the one in the 2013 movie Escape Plan.

If it's a physical place with teleportation blocking, but unable to block flight, you can create a dome with the design of the Panopticon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon).

If you want to make it so they can use most all of their abilities, even teleportation, make it a small prison plane, so there's no where to go without the ability for inter-planar transportation. That would be closer to a Australia-level penal colony, rather than a prison, per se.

[Deox]

For completeness, you'll want to stop the Master Earth spell. It's an instantaneous transmutation that can get around a weirdstone.

Also - it can only be cast while on the Material Plane. This lends favor to making an "off world" prison.

[Caudex Capite]

Well, one major issue you'll run into is the Wish spell's Transport Travelers function. Anyone who can cast Wish can break anyone out of any prison - "regardless of local conditions" is a pretty comprehensive clause. The only way I can think of to get around it is to make sure they're never willing (Mindrape + never allowed to sleep/rendered unconscious) and buff their Will Saves to high heaven, with some rerolls - that gets really, really expensive, so you'll probably want a Mythal (Lost Empires of Faerun) doing your buffing (they can replicate any number of spells from all lists on everyone in their range). Then, since you've already Mindraped them, you can give extra rerolls by DCFS'ing all their feats into Luck Feats and similar (can build casting Embrace/Shun into the Mythal, as well). Probably also want to make sure there's an at-will Surge of Fortune in the mythal, and order them to cast that 1/round so they can auto-succeed against 1 Wish/round. Beyond that, maybe a Contingency to kill them (through some sort of instant death effect they aren't immune to and are told to fail their save against) if they would be transported by a Wish. Make sure the body remains intact, so a True Resurrection or additional Wishes can't revive them. I think that at this point, your prison has to be physically assaulted to get prisoners out (or subjected to multiple super-high save DC Wishes in a single round), and if they're told to resist attempts to break them out with lethal force, that's a nasty proposition. Not to mention the other defensive benefits a Mythal can add...

This prison can theoretically hold anything that you can successfully cast Mindrape on, which is almost everything (given that you can PAO away racial/type immunities, IIRC). Deities (and Abominations) are a problem, as are a few other creatures immune to mind-affecting and transmutation effects, unless you can bluff them into lowering their immunities. The Life and Death ability of some deities lets them break mortals out by killing and then reviving them, though killing them first works. I'm sure that a rank 6+ deity can probably overwhelm your defenses otherwise if they really want to.

Once you get into making it hard to assault, a weirdstone and suppressing Master Earth (as previously suggested) are pretty important, so they can't go in and out with impunity. You'll want some seriously nasty guards - I recommend setting up your Mythal so you can cast Ice Assassin and then mass-cloning your nastiest prisoners. If that's too much cheese, Simulacra of Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons, demiliches, Colossi, Atropals, and similar horrors (which can have their feats reselected by your DCFS) are another option. Heck, if you include Wish in your Mythal, a bunch of level 1 commoners can just sit around Wishing attackers into Tharizdun's Prison (which I believe is explicitly inescapable on a setting level), or a room full of Spheres of Annihilation.

You may as well make it out of Permanent Walls of Force and regenerate them when they're damaged through the mythal, making it impossible to sneak around. Spell turrets to Disjoin anyone unauthorized that comes near are a prudent measure. You'll want to make friends with a deity whose portfolio sense includes your prison, so that you have forewarning of any attempts to assault it.

At this point... social engineering (AKA kidnapping and brainwashing, in all likelihood)? Anyone with authority over the prison, particularly those responsible for bringing new prisoners in is a potential liability. Familial Geasae (which are verified by several redundant systems before they're allowed anywhere near the facility) should keep them in line.

I'm probably missing some really obvious routes of attack, but that should deal with most ways of breaking out prisoners even at Epic levels. Obviously, genuinely overwhelming force is an option, but a numbers-based arms race seems silly.

[Jormengand]

If you can somehow sneak some kind of persistence/permanency onto the 4th-level Lexicon of the Perfected Map utterance Deny Passage, and make it undispellable put some kind of creature with a ring of counterspells for each dispelling spell nearby, you have a prison whose effect is quite literally you cannot leave this area by any means (It "prevent[s] creatures from leaving the truenamed place"). Items of Deny Passage are surprisingly cheap because it's only a 4th-level utterance (even if a truenamer needs to be 20th-level to cast it).

If you're feeling really cheesy, you could put a constantly-resetting Spell Rebirth trap or twenty on the ground, with the Deny Passage spell's true name in and a special trigger, so that you can undispel the spell every time it's dispelled.

Also find some way to stop Freedom of Movement, which is basically your nemesis at this point. Have more Spell Rebirth traps using the reversed version to remove it whenever it's cast?

I dunno, but Deny Passage seems obviously useful if you can stop its duration being terrible.

EDIT: Energy Transformation Field of Deny Passage with an Immovable Rod somewhere in the field: it will also absorb (but not prevent the use of) all their magical stuff. Use spell rebirth traps to reset the ETF if it's disjoined.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Grab a really big animal (like a soar whale or something), hollow it out, revive it. Find a way to get a permanent dimensional anchors embedded in its flesh. Put a couple of food/water/air traps inside, and then cast imprisonment, sending it to the Earth's core. The creature cannot be harmed while under the spell's effect, meaning the prisoners can't bust their way out, and the earth's core will have no negative effects on it. Teleport your (magically sleeping) prisoners in, teleport out, and leave behind some poor schmuck to install the dimensional anchors before the prisoners wake up. Alternatively, use wish or somesuch to do the dimensional anchor part for you when you're safely on the Earth's surface.

This does rely on a fiat, namely:
-The temporal stasis effect applying to the creature, but not other creatures inside of it.

End result, you have a unbreakable prison within the earth's core that cannot be teleported out of, or into.

You could make the only entrance to a demiplane be inside the undead soarwhale, and let the prisoners roam free in the demiplane, but have their food and water be inside the whale.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A spellblade of wish, miracle, and reality revision can prevent anyone from using those effects from pulling prisoners away. I'd suggest blocking abjuration spells entirely (which includes remove curse, break enchantment, and antimagic field), and giving all inmates +1 spellblade poison rings (from Dragon Compendium) that are cursed to be unremovable and are keyed to wish, miracle, and reality revision, that would make keeping them in your prison much easier. You could also key them to all forms of teleportation and interplanar travel, or add Conjuration (Teleportation) and planar travel spells to the list of wholesale banned effects. If they're kept on a demiplane, this prevents them from leaving entirely, but if they're not, escaping in a mundane fashion is still a possibility.

A character able to manifest 7th level powers with the ardent's dominant ideal and with planar bubble in his 7th level mantle slot can use that spell-turned-power to emulate the Concordant Domain of the Outlands near Sigil's Spire to nullify magic -- even the gods'. If he takes Extend Power, Widen Power, and Metapower (Widen + planar bubble), he can make the power last however long he wants, and he can cover the entire prison area with a single manifestation. Enough Psicraft and the Burrowing Power feat, and he can even go through walls and other obstacles. Look in Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood for devices, and have him manifest planar bubble from a power stone device to make it utterly undispellable, even with disjunction.

Doing all of this in a piece of stone filled with tunnels only a millimeter or so wide, and shrinking all inmates down to the size of fleas, can insure that nobody can teleport in unless they, too, are small enough to fit.

Doing it on a demiplane without portal access means that mundane escape attempts are not possible.

Pulling the dominant ideal trick with various means of dimensional travel blockers means that prisoners can't plane shift in or out, or teleport within the prison. If the ardent has access to the Selective Spell feat and can apply a modified version to his powers, or he has access to the incantatrix's metamagic effect and the Selective Spell feat to exclude himself from the teleportation blockers, that gives him the means to plane shift in and out at will, which allows him to add or remove prisoners and guardians at his leisure.

[Caudex Capite]

Huh, I hadn't realized that Wish was a targeted spell when doing Transport Travelers. Does using Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell (making it an (Su) ability instead of a spell) bypass the spellblade?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A planar vanguard (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031219a) can manifest the aformentioned planar bubble on his psicrystal, so that way he's perfectly capable of keeping tabs on the demiplane and going about his own business without resorting to entering the place himself. And he can channel plane shift through his psicrystal to pull anyone he wants out, and use it to communicate with them, when need be.


Huh, I hadn't realized that Wish was a targeted spell when doing Transport Travelers. Does using Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell (making it an (Su) ability instead of a spell) bypass the spellblade?I wouldn't think so. It's still a Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision, after all.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't think so. It's still a Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision, after all.

Spellblade (at least, the version I'm reading) says you're immune to a single spell though. Su/SLA aren't spells, even if the one being used on you shares a name with a spell.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Spellblade (at least, the version I'm reading) says you're immune to a single spell though. Su/SLA aren't spells, even if the one being used on you shares a name with a spell.Yes, and the ability is called Supernatural Spell.

It's still a spell, just a supernatural one. Metamagic still works, you can still use it for item creation, and it's still blocked by an appropriate spellblade.

[Psyren]

Yes, and the ability is called Supernatural Spell.

It's still a spell, just a supernatural one. Metamagic still works, you can still use it for item creation, and it's still blocked by an appropriate spellblade.

On reread of the Dweomerkeeper ability, I agree with you - it's still a spell, just one that has many of the properties of a supernatural ability. So a spellblade will work in that particular instance. But a truly supernatural Wish, like that of a Zodar, would not be stopped by a spellblade.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

On reread of the Dweomerkeeper ability, I agree with you - it's still a spell, just one that has many of the properties of a supernatural ability. So a spellblade will work in that particular instance. But a truly supernatural Wish, like that of a Zodar, would not be stopped by a spellblade.So the question then becomes, how do you override this weakness?

[Lhurgyof]

I am curious about good things to use to build a truly secure prison. Now I don't want to store creatures in stasis or turned to stone or whatever else would work as a more secure form of containment. I literally am just curious about good ways to make a building full of rooms (that aren't extradimensional) that can keep things in really effectively.

To keep things interesting, no anti-magic fields (or dead magic planar traits, etc.) either. Prisoners must be able to walk around their cells and use whatever abilities they have at their disposal all day long, while receiving three square meals a day and such.

So yeah, how would you go about building your own personal Alkatraz? Points for coolness apply. :smallbiggrin:

When we were playing a game me and my friends came up with the idea of an Adamantine Skyship. It would have an adamantine box on the lower deck that could be dropped via chain much like an anchor (To be suspended or dropped in the ocean).

Unfortunately, it did use an anti-magic field. This was also in 4th Edition so I had powers to teleport other people as an ardent. But the concept might be a good starting point.

[HolyDraconus]

There is no such thing as a perfect prison. Iron heart surge away....

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There is no such thing as a perfect prison. Iron heart surge away....Well, it's doable, but not with the stipulations in the OP. If you allow prisoners to walk around, then of course they can get out, if only due to (Su) wishes. IHS wouldn't work on the magic-dampening effects of a dead magic plane, for instance, since it's a natural planar quality and can't really be suppressed.

My suggestion would be to create an arcane genesis dead magic demiplane filled with quintessence. Shove a spellbladed ring onto each prisoner (or a necklace of natural weaponry) and shove 'em through a one-way portal. This is only if you want to imprison them forever, don't want to kill them for fear of resurrection, and don't want to destroy their souls to make them unresurrectionable. However, as Psyren mentioned above, (Su) wishes could possibly bypass the dead magic restriction, so unless you want to shove each prisoner into a large, airtight jar, cast a device-based polymorph any object on them to turn them into an air molecule that would literally be impossible to find among all the other molecules in the jar, and shove the jar into the demiplane, to be forever locked in (barring a (Su) wish, and even then, all you get is a nonmagical molecule that is impossible to find)...

[HolyDraconus]

Well, it's doable, but not with the stipulations in the OP. If you allow prisoners to walk around, then of course they can get out, if only due to (Su) wishes. IHS wouldn't work on the magic-dampening effects of a dead magic plane, for instance, since it's a natural planar quality and can't really be suppressed.

My suggestion would be to create an arcane genesis dead magic demiplane filled with quintessence. Shove a spellbladed ring onto each prisoner (or a necklace of natural weaponry) and shove 'em through a one-way portal. This is only if you want to imprison them forever, don't want to kill them for fear of resurrection, and don't want to destroy their souls to make them unresurrectionable. However, as Psyren mentioned above, (Su) wishes could possibly bypass the dead magic restriction, so unless you want to shove each prisoner into a large, airtight jar, cast a device-based polymorph any object on them to turn them into an air molecule that would literally be impossible to find among all the other molecules in the jar, and shove the jar into the demiplane, to be forever locked in (barring a (Su) wish, and even then, all you get is a nonmagical molecule that is impossible to find)...
Ihs isn't magical. Or supernatural.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ihs isn't magical. Or supernatural.You're trying to suppress a dead magic plane, but how can you? You could suppress, say, wild magic, or an antimagic field spell, but how do you suppress a lack of magic?

[HolyDraconus]

You're trying to suppress a dead magic plane, but how can you? You could suppress, say, wild magic, or an antimagic field spell, but how do you suppress a lack of magic?

By ihs. The lack affects me.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

By ihs. The lack affects me.So, you're in the middle of a desert and the lack of water is causing a drought. So you IHS, and...

...it does nothing.

[Psyren]

So, you're in the middle of a desert and the lack of water is causing a drought. So you IHS, and...

...it does nothing.

"This condition is caused by a lack of something" doesn't stop it from being a condition. Dehydrated is a condition (Sandstorm pg. 15) caused by lack of water, therefore IHS would rehydrate you.

[HolyDraconus]

"This condition is caused by a lack of something" doesn't stop it from being a condition. Dehydrated is a condition (Sandstorm pg. 15) caused by lack of water, therefore IHS would rehydrate you.

Psychic ninja...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"This condition is caused by a lack of something" doesn't stop it from being a condition. Dehydrated is a condition (Sandstorm pg. 15) caused by lack of water, therefore IHS would rehydrate you.But it wouldn't create external water, which is what IHS would have to do with magic in a dead magic plane.

[HolyDraconus]

But it wouldn't create external water, which is what IHS would have to do with magic in a dead magic plane.

Ihs the dead magic plane.

[Extra Anchovies]

When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds.
Bolded section is the important one. An unstated duration, or a duration measured in units other than rounds, renders an effect immune to Iron Heart Surge.

Similar language appears in the text of Ocular Spell:

Only ray spells and spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.
Spells with no "target" line that are also not rays cannot be cast as ocular spells, because an unstated target is not a target other than personal.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ihs the dead magic plane.Have fun being a vestige, since you just destroyed the plane you were in and dumped everything in it into the void that exists outside of time and space.

And you can't IHS that away, because by that point you no longer exist.

[HolyDraconus]

Bolded section is the important one. An unstated duration, or a duration measured in units other than rounds, renders an effect immune to Iron Heart Surge.

Similar language appears in the text of Ocular Spell:

Spells with no "target" line that are also not rays cannot be cast as ocular spells, because an unstated target is not a target other than personal.
Read your quote. Curtently affecting. Followed by And. Non state duration doesn't make it immune.

[HolyDraconus]

Have fun being a vestige, since you just destroyed the plane you were in and dumped everything in it into the void that exists outside of time and space.

And you can't IHS that away, because by that point you no longer exist.

Either im a vestige or dont exist. Either way, knight capstone ihs.

[Extra Anchovies]

Read your quote. Curtently affecting. Followed by And. Non state duration doesn't make it immune.

Let's read that again, shall we?

When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds.
That's "and", as in "both this and that". You cannot select spells, effects, or other conditions that are not affecting you at the time that you use Iron Heart Surge, and you cannot select spells, effects, or other conditions that do not have a duration of 1 or more rounds. If a spell, effect, or other condition falls into the category "things not currently affecting me" or into the category "things that do not have a duration of 1 or more rounds", or into both categories, that thing is not a valid target for Iron Heart Surge.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Either im a vestige or dont exist. Either way, knight capstone ihs.You no longer exist. Your echo, however, lingers, but not in any way that you might call "existence." The vestige only has stats insofar as what it gives to others who bind it; it is no longer you as you would understand the term, and it no longer has IHS.


Let's read that again, shall we?

That's "and", as in "both this and that". You cannot select spells, effects, or other conditions that are not affecting you at the time that you use Iron Heart Surge, and you cannot select spells, effects, or other conditions that do not have a duration of 1 or more rounds. If a spell, effect, or other condition falls into the category "things not currently affecting me" or into the category "things that do not have a duration of 1 or more rounds", or into both categories, that thing is not a valid target for Iron Heart Surge.A month lasts 1 or more rounds; that doesn't mean that you'll ever measure it in such terms.

[HolyDraconus]

Let's read that again, shall we?

That's "and", as in "both this and that". You cannot select spells, effects, or other conditions that are not affecting you at the time that you use Iron Heart Surge, and you cannot select spells, effects, or other conditions that do not have a duration of 1 or more rounds. If a spell, effect, or other condition falls into the category "things not currently affecting me" or into the category "things that do not have a duration of 1 or more rounds", or into both categories, that thing is not a valid target for Iron Heart Surge.let's play a thought experiment. Name one thing that gets by ihs, and i can tell you how it doesn't.


You no longer exist. Your echo, however, lingers, but not in any way that you might call "existence." The vestige only has stats insofar as what it gives to others who bind it; it is no longer you as you would understand the term, and it no longer has IHS.

A month lasts 1 or more rounds; that doesn't mean that you'll ever measure it in such terms.the lack of time and space affects me, so ihs still works.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

the lack of time and space affects me, so ihs still works.Nope. In order to initiate any maneuver, you must be free to move and act. You can do neither if you do not exist. IHS might work if you could initiate it, but you are no longer capable of doing so.

[HolyDraconus]

Nope. In order to initiate any maneuver, you must be free to move and act. You can do neither if you do not exist. IHS might work if you could initiate it, but you are no longer capable of doing so.

Not quite right. Which is why i said knight capstone, ihs.

[Extra Anchovies]

A month lasts 1 or more rounds; that doesn't mean that you'll ever measure it in such terms.

A CL 1 Enlarge Person lasts for 60 seconds, and has a duration measured in minutes (as per the spell description). A CL 10 Haste lasts for 60 seconds, and has a duration measured in rounds (again as per the spell description). What matters is not the actual duration but how the selected spell, effect, or condition measures its duration. Permanent, Instantaneous, minutes/level, hours/level, days/level, weeks/level, months/level, years/level, and unstated durations - none of those are durations measured in rounds.

IHS is more than a little wonky, but it's much more restrictive than is usually assumed.


let's play a thought experiment. Name one thing that gets by ihs, and i can tell you how it doesn't.

Hold Person.

To initiate a maneuver or a stance, you must be able to move.
:biggrin:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not quite right. Which is why i said knight capstone, ihs.Except you're not dead. You no longer exist. It's the difference between your body laying there broken and being vaporized on a sub-atomic level while being teleported into the heart of the sun.

And anyway, note that Loyal Beyond Death requires an intact body. You no longer have a body, let alone an intact one.

[Crake]

First things first: block teleportation. Forbiddance should work.

Secondly, how about keeping all prisoners under multiple False Sensory Inputs and a Detect Thoughts to make them feel like they are doing whatever they want to do (escape, walk around, kill people). Technically, they aren't locked in statis and they're still 'walking around in their cell and eating their meals', they just don't consciously realize that.

There's already a power for that, it's called microcosm

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A CL 1 Enlarge Person lasts for 60 seconds, and has a duration measured in minutes (as per the spell description). A CL 10 Haste lasts for 60 seconds, and has a duration measured in rounds (again as per the spell description). What matters is not the actual duration but how the selected spell, effect, or condition measures its duration. Permanent, Instantaneous, minutes/level, hours/level, days/level, weeks/level, months/level, years/level, and unstated durations - none of those are durations measured in rounds.

IHS is more than a little wonky, but it's much more restrictive than is usually assumed.Enlarge person at CL 1 is 10 rounds.

I measured it in rounds. Done.

[HolyDraconus]

Hold Person.

:biggrin:which does two things: targets me and makes me immobilized, the former is enough to surge away the latter was even flat out called out in the errata (of all things) as being valid to be ihs awayed. Try again.


Except you're not dead. You no longer exist. It's the difference between your body laying there broken and being vaporized on a sub-atomic level while being teleported into the heart of the sun.

And anyway, note that Loyal Beyond Death requires an intact body. You no longer have a body, let alone an intact one.
Show where by RAW the destruction of a plane forces me to lose my body. Or is auto non existence, for that matter.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's already a power for that, it's called microcosm

That could work, and it's a pretty tricky effect to remove. It's important to note, however, that the creatures wouldn't actually be able to move, eat, or take any other actions - if you didn't want to tube-feed them, or if you wanted them to be able to use their various abilities (perhaps as indentured laborers of some sort), you'd have to use something else.


Enlarge person at CL 1 is 10 rounds.

I measured it in rounds. Done.

Enlarge Person at CL 1 is 1 minute, actually, because it's a spell with a duration measured in minutes per level. Ten rounds and one minute might pass in the same amount of time (60 seconds), but for the purposes of IHS they are not interchangeable.

"Measured in X" also appears in Rapid Spell.

Only spells with a casting time greater than 1 standard action can be made rapid. A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action. A rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can be cast in 1 full round. Rapid spells with casting times measured in minutes can be cast in 1 minute, and rapid spells with casting times measured in hours can be cast in 1 hour. A rapid spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
If rounds and minutes were interchangeable for the purposes of "measured in x", there would be no need for the fourth sentence, and Rapid Spell could be used to reduce any spell's casting time to 1 full round (if it's not already lower, that is).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

which does two things: targets me and makes me immobilized, the former is enough to surge away the latter was even flat out called out in the errata (of all things) as being valid to be ihs awayed. Try again.

Show where by RAW the destruction of a plane forces me to lose my body. Or is auto non existence, for that matter.That's how vestiges are formed, when a being is forced into the spaces between the planes, or when similar events happen. Check the ToM.


That could work, and it's a pretty tricky effect to remove. It's important to note, however, that the creatures wouldn't actually be able to move, eat, or take any other actions - if you didn't want to tube-feed them, or if you wanted them to be able to use their various abilities (perhaps as indentured laborers of some sort), you'd have to use something else.

Enlarge Person at CL 1 is 1 minute, actually, because it's a spell with a duration measured in minutes per level. Ten rounds and one minute might pass in the same amount of time (60 seconds), but for the purposes of IHS they are not interchangeable.

"Measured in X" also appears in Rapid Spell.

If rounds and minutes were interchangeable for the purposes of "measured in x", there would be no need for the fourth sentence, and Rapid Spell could be used to reduce any spell's casting time to 1 full round (if it's not already lower, that is).It never says who had to measure it in rounds, or when it has to be done, just that it had to be measured in rounds. I fulfilled that requirement when I converted the measurement. Ergo, it works.

[HolyDraconus]

That could work, and it's a pretty tricky effect to remove. It's important to note, however, that the creatures wouldn't actually be able to move, eat, or take any other actions - if you didn't want to tube-feed them, or if you wanted them to be able to use their various abilities (perhaps as indentured laborers of some sort), you'd have to use something else.



Enlarge Person at CL 1 is 1 minute, actually, because it's a spell with a duration measured in minutes per level. Ten rounds and one minute might pass in the same amount of time (60 seconds), but for the purposes of IHS they are not interchangeable.

"Measured in X" also appears in Rapid Spell.

If rounds and minutes were interchangeable for the purposes of "measured in x", there would be no need for the fourth sentence, and Rapid Spell could be used to reduce any spell's casting time to 1 full round (if it's not already lower, that is).

You knew before even typing that up that ihs is stupid, by RAW, disnt you?

[Extra Anchovies]

which does two things: targets me and makes me immobilized, the former is enough to surge away the latter was even flat out called out in the errata (of all things) as being valid to be ihs awayed. Try again.

You seem to be misinformed. The Tome of Battle errata, accessible here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata), turns into a reprint of the Complete Mage errata halfway through its third entry, and doesn't mention Iron Heart Surge at all.

Also you have to initiate the maneuver to pick an effect that you want to remove via IHS, and you can't initiate the maneuver while you're paralyzed.


You knew before even typing that up that ihs is stupid, by RAW, disnt you?

Oh, yeah. Incredibly so. However, it's also not just a big red button with "no" printed on it. You might play it as such at your table, but this isn't your table - this is the forum, and without a DM to adjudicate stuff all we have to go on is RAW.


It never says who had to measure it in rounds, or when it has to be done, just that it had to be measured in rounds. I fulfilled that requirement when I converted the measurement. Ergo, it works.

So you also support Rapid Spell shortening the casting time of all spells to 1 full round or less, because the two abilities use identical language.

[HolyDraconus]

That's how vestiges are formed, when a being is forced into the spaces between the planes, or when similar events happen. Check the ToM

Just did. It doesn't say that. Where did you see that?
And ready action ihs, so no further cheese is needed

[Esprit15]

Another IHS argument? Alright, can I just post the errata for it so we can move on in our lives?

Iron Heart Surge is capable of removing any one of the following conditions each time it is initiated:
Blinded, Confused, Dazzled, Deafened, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fatigued, Flat-Footed, Frightened, Immobilized, Knocked Down, Nauseated, On Fire, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Slowed, Staggered, Turned.
Any spell/power, spell-like/psi-like ability or supernatural ability with a duration lasting longer than one round, provided you are either being targeted by the spell or are within the spell's radius.
Any racial trait currently affecting the initiator (such as Light Sensitivity or a vampire's weakness to sunlight). The source of this detriment is not removed, only the condition caused by the racial trait.
Any extraordinary ability currently affecting the initiator (such as the Frenzy ability of a Frenzied Berserker, or the "Bleeding Wounds" inflicted by certain creatures).
Any ability hindering the initiator caused by an item (alchemical, mundane, magical, or otherwise), such as a caltrop wound.
Any effect not listed above is outside of Iron Heart Surge's range of influence. These conditions cannot be removed, even if their source is a spell's effect or similar ability (such as being dazed by a psionic power, or being affected by a bard's Fascinate ability).

Additionally, some effects can be reinstated at any point during the rest of the round, after you have initiated Iron Heart Surge (for example, a vampire's weakness to sunlight will reinstate its effects at the end of the vampire's turn, unless he uses his move action to exit the sunlight. The move action would be possible immediately after initiating Iron Heart Surge).

In case of Iron Heart Surge affecting a spell or other ability that affects an area (such as the web spell), the entire effect is ended for everyone involved when Iron Heart Surge resolves.

[HolyDraconus]

Another IHS argument? Alright, can I just post the errata for it so we can move on in our lives?

No! Don't you DARE try to ruin our fun!

[Belial_the_Leveler]

IHS vs 2 or more separate conditions preventing you from using maneuvers doesn't work. It will only affect one, and the other will still stop it. Thus, wizards should be twinning their spells and giving them high enough DC (when applicable) that the target fails both saves.


Anyway, onto the prison;


1) The prison is deep within the earth, built in lead-rich rock so divinations can't reach it.
2) The prison's inner walls are made with transdimensional wall-of-x spells so they're physically impassable to insubstantial enemies.
3) The prison's walls were animated and then temporal stasised via supernatural means by an Initiate of Mystra so they are permanently and undispellably invulnerable.
4) The prison's interior is covered with similarly supernatural/antiantimagical permanent Energy Transformation Fields absorbing all attempts at Wish, Miracle, Gate, Shapechange, magical transportation, or variations thereof, from affecting those within the prison or the prison itself.
5) The prison is full of a visually impeding but still breathable gas so remote observers cannot see the details of the interior and thus cannot magically travel to it even if they can disregard the defenses.
6) Every prisoner undergoes the Ritual of Renaming, changing their name magically so those beyond the prison can't target them by naming them.
7) Every prisoner has a supernatural/antiantimagical Greater Curse applied to them that reduces their intelligence to 1 if they plan to escape. Creatures with intelligence 1 can't make plans, let alone apply them. Their intelligence returns to normal if they stop trying to escape.

[Psyren]

Have fun being a vestige, since you just destroyed the plane you were in and dumped everything in it into the void that exists outside of time and space.

And you can't IHS that away, because by that point you no longer exist.

You're not IHS-ing the entire plane - just the dead magic trait it's affecting you with. Thus you and the plane would both still exist.

[Jormengand]

You're not IHS-ing the entire plane - just the dead magic trait it's affecting you with. Thus you and the plane would both still exist.

Planar traits, except for wild magic and possibly the healing on the Plane of Positive Energy, are not effects or conditions, and are certainly not spells. IHS cannot end them. They also don't have durations.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So you also support Rapid Spell shortening the casting time of all spells to 1 full round or less, because the two abilities use identical language.Considering how many ways of shortening the casting time of almost every spell out there to a standard action or less, I don't see why not.


You're not IHS-ing the entire plane - just the dead magic trait it's affecting you with. Thus you and the plane would both still exist.His exact words were, "Ihs the dead magic plane," so he IHS'd away the plane.

[Telonius]

The most fiendish prison I've heard of has more to do with the condition of the prisoners than the prison itself. Through Divinations, figure out the exact moment the prisoner is going to die of old age. Exactly six seconds before that happens, cast Eternity of Torture. (Take steps to ensure that the subject fails his save, and that you can overcome SR).

[Psyren]

Planar traits, except for wild magic and possibly the healing on the Plane of Positive Energy, are not effects or conditions, and are certainly not spells. IHS cannot end them. They also don't have durations.

Do you have a definition of "effect" that excludes planar traits?



His exact words were, "Ihs the dead magic plane," so he IHS'd away the plane.

I don't really care what his exact words were - I was conveying my own reading of the (silly) RAW.

[Crake]

That's how vestiges are formed, when a being is forced into the spaces between the planes, or when similar events happen. Check the ToM.

I want to clear up a misconception you have. Vestiges don't exist in the "space between the planes" or anything like that. The space between the planes is somewhere. Vestiges exist nowhere. They are beings that shouldn't exist, can't exist even, but somehow they do exist.

Hell, even being outside the planes, the far realm, call it what you want, that's still somewhere.

[zergling.exe]

Another IHS argument? Alright, can I just post the errata for it so we can move on in our lives?

As was already pointed out, there is no official errata for ToB. Or at least not a complete version, and certainly nothing about IHS.

edit: This page: Archived WotC 3.5 errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), leads to this document: ToB errata (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/Errata_ToB.zip), which gives us this:


Page 74-75 – Strike of the Broken Shield [Deletion]
Remove last two sentences of maneuver’s text.

Page 77 – Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike [Deletion]
Remove “Duration: 1 minute.”

Page 53 – Firesnake [Deletion/Substitution]
Remove last two sentences of first paragraph. Substitute last two sentences of second paragraph with “A c

Page 37 – Alacritous Cogitation [Addition]
Revise end of first sentence to read, “...cast any arcane spell you know of the same level or lower and of casting time no longer than 1 round.”

Now I'm not the only one seeing that Alacritous Cognitation is definietly not ToB right? and we have that incomplete thought at the end of Firesnake too.

[Esprit15]

Yeah, my bad. I missed the words "Unofficial Errata Project" in tiny letters at the top. Whoops. :smallredface:

Still nothing that says the source of the effect is removed, just that you are not affected by it.

[Jormengand]

Do you have a definition of "effect" that excludes planar traits?

No, but I do have a definition of duration which is "how long the magical energy of [a] spell lasts", so planar traits don't have it. Also, that question is like asking "Do you have a definition of spell that excludes supernatural abilities?" Well no, because they're a one-time magical effect, which some (Su) abilities are. That's not to say that (Su) abilities are actually spells just because we would call them spells in real life.

[Extra Anchovies]

1) The prison is deep within the earth, built in lead-rich rock so divinations can't reach it.
2) The prison's inner walls are made with transdimensional wall-of-x spells so they're physically impassable to insubstantial enemies.
3) The prison's walls were animated and then temporal stasised via supernatural means by an Initiate of Mystra so they are permanently and undispellably invulnerable.
4) The prison's interior is covered with similarly supernatural/antiantimagical permanent Energy Transformation Fields absorbing all attempts at Wish, Miracle, Gate, Shapechange, magical transportation, or variations thereof, from affecting those within the prison or the prison itself.
5) The prison is full of a visually impeding but still breathable gas so remote observers cannot see the details of the interior and thus cannot magically travel to it even if they can disregard the defenses.
6) Every prisoner undergoes the Ritual of Renaming, changing their name magically so those beyond the prison can't target them by naming them.
7) Every prisoner has a supernatural/antiantimagical Greater Curse applied to them that reduces their intelligence to 1 if they plan to escape. Creatures with intelligence 1 can't make plans, let alone apply them. Their intelligence returns to normal if they stop trying to escape.

Oooh, these are good. The Animate Objects -> Temporal Stasis trick is one that I'll have to keep in mind. I'm not sure how Initiate of Mystra helps, though - the feat gives you a chance to cast in an AMF, but doesn't seem to protect your ongoing spell effects from exposure to AMF after they've been cast.

[OldTrees1]

Consider Spell Clocks set to SU Wish "____ is teleported regardless of local conditions to _____." I don't think you even need to know the location of the spell clock, so have them stored "lost forever" in the astral plane.

[Psyren]

No, but I do have a definition of duration which is "how long the magical energy of [a] spell lasts", so planar traits don't have it. Also, that question is like asking "Do you have a definition of spell that excludes supernatural abilities?" Well no, because they're a one-time magical effect, which some (Su) abilities are. That's not to say that (Su) abilities are actually spells just because we would call them spells in real life.

So only spells have durations? What about non-spell effects like being Intimidated? What about a Rod of Rulership? What about Silversheen? Figurine of Wondrous Power? Etc.

[Eloel]

Build a gargantuan construct. Feed them to the construct. Be a Cleric of Mystra 3/Wizard 17, bring the construct to a dead magic zone and cast Imprisonment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm) on it.

Nothing short of another Cleric of Mystra 3/Wizard 17 or an epic level character can get them out now.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Build a gargantuan construct. Feed them to the construct. Be a Cleric of Mystra 3/Wizard 17, bring the construct to a dead magic zone and cast Imprisonment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm) on it.

Nothing short of another Cleric of Mystra 3/Wizard 17 or an epic level character can get them out now.Anyone with the planar bubble spell and freedom can get 'em out, so long as they're a native to a plane with magic.

[Jormengand]

So only spells have durations? What about non-spell effects like being Intimidated? What about a Rod of Rulership? What about Silversheen? Figurine of Wondrous Power? Etc.

They have durations in the conventional sense, but not Durations unless they say they have something called a Duration which is an exception to the normal rules on what a Duration is.

[Bohandas]

-Halaster's Teleport Cage (from Waterdeep: City of Splendors) would be useful, it permanently prevents teleportation out of it's area.

-Cells should be adamantite or obdurium reinforced by permanemt walls of force

-Located so deep underground that one cannot reach the surface without water rations or some form of rapid transportation. Alternately located in space.


Anyone with the planar bubble spell and freedom can get 'em out, so long as they're a native to a plane with magic.

Invoke Magic (from Lords of Madness) would work too.

In any case, dead magic zones violate the rules of the request.


A character able to manifest 7th level powers with the ardent's dominant ideal and with planar bubble in his 7th level mantle slot can use that spell-turned-power to emulate the Concordant Domain of the Outlands near Sigil's Spire to nullify magic -- even the gods'. If he takes Extend Power, Widen Power, and Metapower (Widen + planar bubble), he can make the power last however long he wants, and he can cover the entire prison area with a single manifestation. Enough Psicraft and the Burrowing Power feat, and he can even go through walls and other obstacles.

Wouldn't that be instantly self-canceling?

Plus it wpuld still be vulnerable to Invoke Magic

[Bohandas]

removing hands and tongues would be useful as well, as would blinging and deafening people

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Walls made invulnerable via temporal stasis are superior to any material or force effect. They're both cheaper, and can't be disintegrated.

Being located deep underground isn't so prisoners have to walk to the surface. It is so outsiders can't find it with detect spells, x-ray vision, or incorporeality as insubstantial beings can't go through an obstacle thicker than they are.

[Bohandas]

-spherically surrounded on all sides by thick moats of magically suspended deoxygenated water, strong acid, lava, and sewage

-guards and wards

-shadow landscape

-cells are permanently sealed shut. water and food are generated by magical devices embedded in the ceiling

-gravity is locally redirected towards the center of each cell, so no matter which way they try to go they have to go upwards to get out. Also disorientation

-You only need one leg to walk around, provided that you have a crutch (rigged to crumble to dust if it leaves the cell)

-The inmates are posessed by gereleths

-everythig outside the cells is filled with deadly poisonous gas

[atemu1234]

I recommend using magic to keep them awake 24/7 and make them spend all their spells. That way, without rest, they can never regain spells.

[Eloel]

In any case, dead magic zones violate the rules of the request.


Not really - the rules wanted the prisoners to not be in dead magic zone. Nothing about making the entrance to the prison a dead magic zone.

[Necrov]

I recommend using magic to keep them awake 24/7 and make them spend all their spells. That way, without rest, they can never regain spells.

I could be wrong. But the point of a prison (rather than execution) is that they can in theory serve their sentence and leave. I suspect this -may- be difficult if they have all been driven completely insane and then subsequently died from sleep deprivation. Which -is- torture.

I think some of you may need to read the original post again, and re-think the locking whale corpses in the center of the planet ideas. My interpretation was that these prisons need to be functional and at least semi-mundane.

[Esprit15]

I guess one important question to start would be how high of level people are we taking care of? Otherwise eventually you'll have to store a sorcerer with Sudden Still and Sudden Silent who uses both on a Wish to get out of there. Or something similar. When you don't find a way to negate spellcasters, you quickly find them stomping on a lot of things.

[OldTrees1]

I guess one important question to start would be how high of level people are we taking care of? Otherwise eventually you'll have to store a sorcerer with Sudden Still and Sudden Silent who uses both on a Wish to get out of there. Or something similar. When you don't find a way to negate spellcasters, you quickly find them stomping on a lot of things.

Wish them back? You don't need to keep spellcasters from leaving if they don't have enough time outside to do anything before being brought back.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I could be wrong. But the point of a prison (rather than execution) is that they can in theory serve their sentence and leave. I suspect this -may- be difficult if they have all been driven completely insane and then subsequently died from sleep deprivation. Which -is- torture.

I think some of you may need to read the original post again, and re-think the locking whale corpses in the center of the planet ideas. My interpretation was that these prisons need to be functional and at least semi-mundane.It has to be extremely magical, else you can forget about it working at all on a lot of spellcaster-types above level 4 or so.

[Caudex Capite]

An addition that works well with almost all of the suggested ideas: A sleepless warden with the ability to magically monitor the entire prison at the same time (essentially something similar to a security office with video camera feed, though obviously done magically), with self-resetting traps of Forced Dream and Time Hop (you may want two or more wardens, in separate locations, to add redundancy and make sure nothing is ever missed). If someone makes an escape attempt, reset time back a couple rounds, and activate a failsafe that prevents the attempt with extreme prejudice. Since you know what happened, you can take specific countermeasures, assuming you have them planned. You can also have several using Mass Time Hop and Forced Dream so you have hours to prepare for a major breach and develop specific strategies against it. Obviously, this is dwarfed in capability by Portfolio Sense, but you can't always get a god of prisons on your side. Now, your only major worries are attacks with such overwhelming force that no matter how many tries and how much planning time you have you can't thwart them (angry Greater Deity, Pandorym, etc.) and moles who can compromise all of your wardens in the span of an immediate action the instant they drop out of time travel.

I'd really like to see a group of PC's with the ability to reset time themselves try a jailbreak against that sort of countermeasure, because I'm honestly not sure how it could be done.

[ksbsnowowl]

Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm)


Binding
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
...
A binding spell creates a magical restraint to hold a creature. The target gets an initial saving throw only if its Hit Dice equal at least one-half your caster level.
...
Hedged Prison
The subject is transported to or otherwise brought within a confined area from which it cannot wander by any means. The effect is permanent. Reduce the save DC by 3.


Make sure it is cast by a true neutral caster, so it can't be ended by Dispel Evil, etc. Edit: As Binding can't be dispelled with Dispel Magic, it can't be dispelled by Dispel Evil, etc, either.

Another interesting option, though it might run afoul of your desire for no AMF, etc, is Energy Transformation Field (SpC). It creates an area where magical effects cannot be activated, and the spell levels of any attempted magic fuel a spell linked to the Field. That could be your method of providing food and drink to the prisoners (Create Food and Water).

[Bohandas]

cell or small cell block is situated in interplanetary wildspace and pinned to a fixed point by numerous immovable rods, (both built into the structure itself and, more frequently, connected to it by chains) spaced far enough apart that they cannot all be dispeled at the same time (ie at least some subset are far enough apart that somebody would have to walk for more that 4 rounds after casting dispel magic on one to get in range to dispel others). Water, air, and food are generated by magic.

EDIT:
And warded with Halaster's Teleport Cage

[fishyfishyfishy]

removing hands and tongues would be useful as well, as would blinging and deafening people

So... rap music?

[Bohandas]

So... rap music?

Meant to say "blinding". In any case, "blinging" would be something to do with gold or gems, not rap music

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Meant to say "blinding". In any case, "blinging" would be something to do with gold or gems, not rap music

https://modernmaleficarum.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/1382893274618.jpg

"Yo, dawg. We dun dug up da bling from unda da mountain. Fo shizzle."

[Coidzor]

A battery of spells such as feeblemind, baleful polymorph, and spells to make creatures vulnerable to those effects along with defenses against rescue and a way to keep track of which bunny is Judicus the Exterminator and which is Chad the guy who got your pizza order wrong once would be enough.

Alternatively, mindrape them and leave them in a vault in Pandemonium with a supply of food, water, and air. Or obviate their need for such.