Should Sworsages get Escape Artist as a class skill?

[heavyfuel]

Am I missing something? The class is somewhat a mix of Rogue and Monk, both classes with Escape Artist as a class skill. How come they don't have it? Is it just needless with all the teleporting? Or is this one of the many stupidities of ToB?

[Morcleon]

Am I missing something? The class is somewhat a mix of Rogue and Monk, both classes with Escape Artist as a class skill. How come they don't have it? Is it just needless with all the teleporting? Or is this one of the many stupidities of ToB?

While Swordsage can be played in both the rogue and monk archetypes (with shadow hand and setting sun, respectively), there are also a lot of other disciplines they have, so they aren't entirely a mix of those two. Also, their focus is more heavily on combat than either rogue or monk, which probably explains why they don't have it. Or WotC is being dumb. :smalltongue:

If you're the DM, you could just use the PF skill system with class skills getting ranks and a bonus and non-class skills just getting ranks = HD.

[Telonius]

It does play like a Rogue/Monk mix, but I get the feeling they started with the Rogue list, then deliberately left out all of the obviously "doing illegal stuff" skills. No Search (or Trapfinding), Forgery, Sleight of Hand, or Use Rope, either.

[heavyfuel]

While Swordsage can be played in both the rogue and monk archetypes (with shadow hand and setting sun, respectively), there are also a lot of other disciplines they have, so they aren't entirely a mix of those two. Also, their focus is more heavily on combat than either rogue or monk, which probably explains why they don't have it. Or WotC is being dumb. :smalltongue:

If you're the DM, you could just use the PF skill system with class skills getting ranks and a bonus and non-class skills just getting ranks = HD.


It does play like a Rogue/Monk mix, but I get the feeling they started with the Rogue list, then deliberately left out all of the obviously "doing illegal stuff" skills. No Search (or Trapfinding), Forgery, Sleight of Hand, or Use Rope, either.

I'm not the dm, not this time

Their combat focus/lack of "illegal skills" aside, how is 3/4 BAB class with a tendency to focus on Dex that also benefits from being Small supposed to deal with grapples before freedom of movement becomes commonplace?

It's also my understanding that you can't use maneuvers if you can't move, such as when you're grappled - I'm AFB, and will be for a while, so I might be wrong here - so your teleport maneuvers are no help here

[Zaq]

Wait, they don't get Escape Artist? That's kinda bizarre.

Like, on the one hand, Swordsages are pretty well balanced as a whole, so I wouldn't automatically feel the need to buff them unless the rest of the party is at or above their power level, but on the other hand, I agree that it's pretty darn confusing that they don't get Escape Artist. You're spot-on in pointing out that you can't use a maneuver if you can't move, so you probably can't use a Shadow Hand teleport out of a grapple.

If I were GMing, I'd allow it, but my instinct is generally to be freer with class skills (and skill points) in general, so take that for what it's worth.

[heavyfuel]

Their combat focus/lack of "illegal skills" aside, how is 3/4 BAB class with a tendency to focus on Dex that also benefits from being Small supposed to deal with grapples before freedom of movement becomes commonplace?


So, this wasn't a rhetorical question... It seems like grapples completely nullify swordsages before they get a FoM item. I need to know how to avoid that.


Wait, they don't get Escape Artist? That's kinda bizarre.

Like, on the one hand, Swordsages are pretty well balanced as a whole, so I wouldn't automatically feel the need to buff them unless the rest of the party is at or above their power level, but on the other hand, I agree that it's pretty darn confusing that they don't get Escape Artist. You're spot-on in pointing out that you can't use a maneuver if you can't move, so you probably can't use a Shadow Hand teleport out of a grapple.

If I were GMing, I'd allow it, but my instinct is generally to be freer with class skills (and skill points) in general, so take that for what it's worth.

Ya, apparently they don't. While they're pretty balanced, this is one thing that can easily take you out of a fight, especially considering that a bunch of monsters have Improved Grab or similar ability and insanely high grapple bonus.

[Morcleon]

So, this wasn't a rhetorical question... It seems like grapples completely nullify swordsages before they get a FoM item. I need to know how to avoid that.



Ya, apparently they don't. While they're pretty balanced, this is one thing that can easily take you out of a fight, especially considering that a bunch of monsters have Improved Grab or similar ability and insanely high grapple bonus.

Anklet of Translocation gives you a 2/day swift action 10' teleport for 1400 gp, which solves that problem somewhat. You can also use counters (as well as your high AC and miss chances) to avoid the hit in the first place.

[Crake]

I'm not the dm, not this time

Their combat focus/lack of "illegal skills" aside, how is 3/4 BAB class with a tendency to focus on Dex that also benefits from being Small supposed to deal with grapples before freedom of movement becomes commonplace?

It's also my understanding that you can't use maneuvers if you can't move, such as when you're grappled - I'm AFB, and will be for a while, so I might be wrong here - so your teleport maneuvers are no help here

You can most definitely still move (and use maneuvers) while grappled. Maybe not if you're pinned, but the fact that you retain your dex bonus vs other people in the grapple does indicate that you can move about. In fact there are a couple of stances that are for grapples, and I'd be honestly surprised if someone didn't let you use things like raging mongoose in a grapple. Escape artist is a joke anyway, once enemies start getting really big and have lots of bab, your one escape artist check per round will be doing nothing against their 2 or 3 grapples per round.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not the dm, not this time

Their combat focus/lack of "illegal skills" aside, how is 3/4 BAB class with a tendency to focus on Dex that also benefits from being Small supposed to deal with grapples before freedom of movement becomes commonplace?

It's also my understanding that you can't use maneuvers if you can't move, such as when you're grappled - I'm AFB, and will be for a while, so I might be wrong here - so your teleport maneuvers are no help here

You have to be completely unable to move, not just have your movement mildly restricted, to be forbidden from initiating a maneuver.

How do you deal with grappling as a swordsage? Don't let them grab you. Stick and move and take shadow jaunt (just in case). Also, being small isn't strictly the superior option for a swordsage. It's only really beneficial if you're focusing on being a shadow-hand, stealth type.

[heavyfuel]

You can most definitely still move (and use maneuvers) while grappled. Maybe not if you're pinned, but the fact that you retain your dex bonus vs other people in the grapple does indicate that you can move about.


You have to be completely unable to move, not just have your movement mildly restricted, to be forbidden from initiating a maneuver.



You're spot-on in pointing out that you can't use a maneuver if you can't move, so you probably can't use a Shadow Hand teleport out of a grapple.


Ok, so we have disagreeing quotes here. I'm still AFB, so can someone quote me ToB on moving and maneuvers?

@Crake, you retain Dex bonus against the grappler, not against other people though, if that changes your opinion.


Anklet of Translocation gives you a 2/day swift action 10' teleport for 1400 gp, which solves that problem somewhat. You can also use counters (as well as your high AC and miss chances) to avoid the hit in the first place.

Totally forgot this item existed. It's a good clutch that I'll be sure to keep in mind. Thanks!

[Kelb_Panthera]

To initiate a maneuver or stance, you must be able to move. You do not need to be able to speak. You initiate the maneuver by taking the specified action. (...) The process of initiating a maneuver is similar to casting a spell or manifesting a psionic power, although there are some key differences.


Enemy interference might make certain maeuvers impossible to complete. (...) if you begin your tur grappled or pinned, you might find that -most- of the maneuvers available to you simply won't be of any use until you get free.

Emphasis mine. Being grappled doesn't stop you from casting a spell or manifesting a power and, much more importantly, most is not all. If being grappled shut down maneuvers altogether, that seems like a -really- good place to mention it. Speach can only be restricted in a grapple, normally, as well and that would make that sentence extraneous if grappling shut down maneuvers altogether. The RAI is crystal clear here. "Move" in that first sentence is clearly the standard english use of the term; not the game rules, measured in squares on the grid meaning.

[Crake]

Ok, so we have disagreeing quotes here. I'm still AFB, so can someone quote me ToB on moving and maneuvers?

The disagreement here is whether or not being in a grapple completely restricts your movement.


@Crake, you retain Dex bonus against the grappler, not against other people though, if that changes your opinion.

Yeah, I'm aware of that, but I've always attributed that to being too restricted by your opponent to be able to properly avoid attacks, but i mean, let's not be ridiculous here, one of the options of a grapple check is moving. Albiet only 5 feet, it's still there, and of course, you have the option to attack your opponent, or escape the grapple, someone incapable of moving would not have those options available.

But despite even all of that logic, there is a line in tome of battle, page 39, under concentration and describing situations where enemies may interfere with maneuvers. It says "Similarly, if you begin your turn grappled or pinned, you might find that most of the maneuvers available to you simply won't be of any use until you get free." This implies that maneuvers can still be used under those conditions, but that those conditions may render maneuvers useless, for example if you're pinned you can't use attack maneuvers, or if you're grappled you can't use maneuvers that involve movement, like a charge or sudden leap for example.

Edit: Or you know, swordsage me in a thread about swordsages, whatever

[Zaq]

I think we just have to chalk this up to "ToB is a beautiful concept with some patches of extremely unclear rules" and hope for the best.

I mean, it states in black and white that "most" maneuvers "simply won't be of any use" while grappled. Which implies that there are some that can be used and some that can't be used, but that those that can't be used will outnumber those that can be used. The problem is then to determine which is which, and that gets hairy. Anything involving non-teleporting movement (including anything that makes you charge) is likely to fall in the "no" category, but what else wouldn't work while grappled? Presumably any attack you wanted to make with anything other than an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon (or any Tiger Claw maneuver involving attacking with two weapons, since that's explicitly banned by the grapple rules—PHB pg. 156). Beyond that? Unclear. Not sure if that means it's accurate to say "most" wouldn't work, though, depending on what your weapon of choice is.

I mean, it's fuzzy if you can do anything at all other than what's listed on PHB pg. 156 when you're grappling/grappled, including activating a supernatural ability or a spell-like ability or activating a maneuver. Is the list of actions on pg. 156 a hard whitelist? Rules Compendium pg. 60 has the same list, but while PHB pg. 156 says "when you are grappling [. . .] you can perform any of the following actions," while RC pg. 60 says "while you're grappling, you can perform only the following maneuvers," and activating a ToB maneuver isn't on that list. (Emphasis added.) I mean, we get into that argument about the RC being a primary source or not and yada yada, but this isn't actually a direct contradiction (it narrows the rules without reversing any of them), so that might not apply.

So yeah. It's doubtful whether you can use a ToB maneuver in a grapple at all, but it's not because of the ToB rules—it's because of the grapple rules. Ugly. (This also means that unless someone can find some rules text saying that you can activate SLAs while grappled, it's not actually a good idea to try to get Dimension Door or anything similar as an SLA to get out of grapples. Weird.)

(Tangent: ToB pg. 38 says you "must be able to move" to initiate a maneuver. I wonder if you can initiate a maneuver if you're subjected to the "immobilized" condition from Tome of Magic pg. 140? If you're immobilized, you can attack normally, but you can't move from your square. So you are "able to move" in the sense that you can wave your arms around and swing a sword, but you are not "able to move" in that you are not able to change your position on the battle grid. Since I don't think "move" is ever given a strict game definition, it basically ends up as a GM's call, but it's food for thought.)

[HunterOfJello]

You won't need it too badly of you grab any of the teleports

[hamishspence]

I mean, it's fuzzy if you can do anything at all other than what's listed on PHB pg. 156 when you're grappling/grappled, including activating a supernatural ability or a spell-like ability or activating a maneuver.

Given that you specifically can cast spells while grappling or even while pinned - if they have no somatic component (and all material components are in-hand) - I can't see why spell-like abilities wouldn't work - they're like spells but without the components, after all.

[Zaq]

Given that you specifically can cast spells while grappling or even while pinned - if they have no somatic component (and all material components are in-hand) - I can't see why spell-like abilities wouldn't work - they're like spells but without the components, after all.

As logical as that is, I think the rules don't support it, just because the list of things you can do while grappled is presented as a whitelist, and activating a spell-like ability isn't on that whitelist, no matter how much sense that would make.

I imagine many GMs would be open to houseruling that sort of thing. I imagine there's more than a few out there who implicitly houserule that way without realizing it (much like how many GMs don't realize they're houseruling when they grant Monks proficiency with unarmed strikes)—I'm almost positive that I've had characters who have used SLAs and Su abilities while grappled and no one thought twice about it (I wasn't trying to break the rules, but neither I nor the GM nor any other players realized that it was against the rules). And to be fair, the grapple rules are rightly derided as being too complicated for their own good (I remember when Legend released its grapple rules, and the devs were cheekily self-congratulatory about those rules fitting easily on a single page, and I laughed because it was true), so it's hardly surprising that we might be walking around with an imperfect understanding of them. But the Rules Compendium says that you can "only" do things on the list when you're grappled, and that list doesn't include SLAs, or Su abilities, or martial maneuvers, or psionic powers, or anything like that.