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Aximili
2007-06-19, 08:29 PM
Motivated by the dervish topic, I came up with a couple of thoughts.

Which non-ToB class would you guys rather pair with the dervish?
I'm thinking either Fighter, Rogue, Scout or Swashbuckler/Fighter.

Furthermore, what is the earliest level you can get to dervish+weaponfinesse+TWF using whichever class you chose?

Talya
2007-06-19, 08:32 PM
Motivated by the dervish topic, I came up with a couple of thoughts.

Which non-ToB class would you guys rather pair with the dervish?
I'm thinking either Fighter, Rogue, Scout or Swashbuckler/Fighter.

Furthermore, what is the earliest level you can get to dervish+weaponfinesse+TWF using whichever class you chose? (of course, the fighter can reach it at 6th)

Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2 will qualify you for Dervish at level 6, and give you all of the above, +intelligence to damage.

Swashbuckler 3/fighter 2/dervish X//Scout is nice, but I wouldn't sacrifice BAB for scout if you're not doing gestalt.

Jannex
2007-06-19, 08:48 PM
I, personally, love my precision damage, so I'd be inclined toward either Rogue or Scout (with two levels of Fighter to get the feat prereq's sooner). With Rogue 4/Fighter 2, you've got your BAB prereq and all your feat prereqs plus one to spare (two if you're human), which'll net you Weapon Finesse. Your first Dervish level is character level 7.

Scout is tempting, since skirmish applies to moving in combat, which is what Dervish is all about, but your precision damage advances more slowly, and the bonus to speed doesn't stack with the Dervish's fast movement (both are enhancement bonuses). Overall, I think Rogue is probably the better of the two choices.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-06-19, 08:59 PM
I am partial to Swordsage/Swashbuckler/Dervish build; with all the mobility armor and items that one can get.

bigbaddragon
2007-06-19, 09:07 PM
My current character (human) (level by level):

1) Scout - dodge, combat expertize, twf (one feat taken from flaw)
2) Fighter - weapon finnese
3) Scout - weapon focus, battle fortitude, uncany dodge
4) Scout - +10 ft speed, convince your DM to change it to unnamed bonus (I did) because it won't stack with dervish, they are both enhancement
5) Scout - mobility (bonus scout feat)
6) Ranger - track, swift hunter (ranger and scout levels stack for favored enemies and skirmish damage and AC so now you have 2 enemies to whom you can apply skirmish damage even if they are normally immune to precision damage (e.g. constructs & undead) and +2d6/+1AC)
7) Dervish ....

Take improved skirmish at level 9 to boost you skirmish damage by 2d6 and AC by 2 for a total of +4d6/+3AC

Take undead and constructs as your favored enemies, you'll be carrying light weapons (not much damage, no power attack) so you'll be weak against them but not with +4d6 skirmish damage

Take elusive target to protect yourself from rogues and especially two handed wielding power attacking leaping shock trooper maniacs

Try taking expeditious dodge (races of wild) instead of dodge since it won't be a problem for you to move 40 feet per round (I oversaw this when I was making my character)

If you want more speed there is a trait in unearthed arcana that adds 10 feet to you speed but subtracts 1 hit point each level. I took it, my base land speed is currently 50 feet

Feel free to critique :smallsmile:

Aximili
2007-06-19, 09:24 PM
Feel free to critique :smallsmile:

Nothing to critique. Scout is currently my favored class, and, while I'm keeping my mind open to other options, I'm leaning heavily towards this one.

But my DM would like the one level dips, so I'd trade the fighter level with a ranger level. Probably starting with ranger to Twf early on.

Talya
2007-06-19, 09:34 PM
I, personally, love my precision damage,

Me too. Hence the swashbuckler.

Even if I felt like dipping into scout later (A possibility, for no more than 4 levels total), I'd want 3 levels of swashbuckler. Weapon Finesse for free, +int to damage, and throw +1 reflex save.

Scout is far more desirable than rogue, for the simple reason that while both skirmish and sneak attack are situational, a swashbuckler will always be creating the circumstance for skirmish, and rarely that for sneak attack.

Jannex
2007-06-19, 10:07 PM
Me too. Hence the swashbuckler.

A fair point, though for most characters, +2d6 (with the option of adding more later) averages more than +Int.


Scout is far more desirable than rogue, for the simple reason that while both skirmish and sneak attack are situational, a swashbuckler will always be creating the circumstance for skirmish, and rarely that for sneak attack.

Usually you can find a way to flank (especially if you're fighting larger creatures) for most of your Dervish Dance. The trouble with skirmish is that its damage progression is slower than sneak attack. Also, with Scout, you don't get Uncanny Dodge and Evasion in the first four levels. It's something to consider.

Aximili
2007-06-19, 10:14 PM
Usually you can find a way to flank (especially if you're fighting larger creatures) for most of your Dervish Dance. The trouble with skirmish is that its damage progression is slower than sneak attack. Also, with Scout, you don't get Uncanny Dodge and Evasion in the first four levels. It's something to consider.

Actually, unless you're fighting a larger creature, it's pretty hard to flank through all attacks, specially if you only have one melee companion to help you. Remember that you'll be making 4 attacks by level 9. That's 20ft of movement while attacking.
But uncanny dodge and evasion certainly make the rogue a better choice...

Whiplord
2007-06-19, 10:22 PM
I've heard good things about Rogue 4/Fighter6/Dervish 10

Although off the tops of my head I could tell you why exactly. I just remember you get quite a few attacks per turn at very nice bonuses.

Maerok
2007-06-19, 10:43 PM
Swashbuckler 5/Tempest 5/Dervish 10

No penalty for dual wielding; go for scimitars (maybe beg DM to let great scimitar count as a scimitar, but would need exotic weapon proficiency). Free weapon finesse from swashbuckler, and plenty more TWF goodness.

Talya
2007-06-19, 10:49 PM
A fair point, though for most characters, +2d6 (with the option of adding more later) averages more than +Int.

I usually prefer predictable flat bonuses to dice bonuses, but overall, yes you're right. Of course, that's not all you get from swashbuckler...the higher hit die, free weapon finesse, more saving throw bonuses (Fort high, reflex from grace.)




Usually you can find a way to flank (especially if you're fighting larger creatures) for most of your Dervish Dance. The trouble with skirmish is that its damage progression is slower than sneak attack. Also, with Scout, you don't get Uncanny Dodge and Evasion in the first four levels. It's something to consider.

Qualify that with "usually you can find a way to flank for one or two attacks in a round." There's only one spot to flank from, generally, and you're only going to be in that spot once per round in general...certainly not every attack, anyway. Also, with the improved skirmish feat, "+4d6 damage, +3 ac" beats 3d6 sneak attack with 5 levels of rogue. Scout also gets uncanny dodge, batle fortitude (Fort and initiative bonus). They get a bonus feat, too, which is appealling for the feat-intensive PrC requirements. Unfortunately scout fast movement doesn't stack with that of the dervish, however.

If you're really keen on rogue sneak attack with a dervish, Swashbuckler + rogue with "Daring Outlaw" is abusive.

Talya
2007-06-19, 10:53 PM
My elf-dervish idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41791)

bigbaddragon
2007-06-19, 11:01 PM
(Hip Hip Hooray)x3 for Talya, the chef of D&D kitchen :smallsmile:

Wih
2007-06-19, 11:08 PM
Monk with Versatile Unarmed Strike is fun, as is a Soulknife (I know neither are optimized, but they're both quite fun concept-wise).

Callix
2007-06-20, 02:17 AM
If you want TWF goodness, try Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 1/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 with dual scimitars
Feats: 1st: Combat Expertise
Two-weapon Fighting (Fighter bonus)
Dodge (Human bonus)
2nd: Mobility
3rd: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
4th: Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar)
5th: Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler bonus)
Now Dervish-ready (Int 13+ and human means 4 skill points/level minimum. Maxing Perform (dance) and Tumble as CC means skills and feats done by 3rd level. Now just need BAB.)
Dervish gives free spring attack, grab ITWF at 6th and GTWF at 12th, get into Tempest.

Talya
2007-06-20, 07:08 AM
If you want TWF goodness, try Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 1/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 with dual scimitars
Feats: 1st: Combat Expertise
Two-weapon Fighting (Fighter bonus)
Dodge (Human bonus)
2nd: Mobility
3rd: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
4th: Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar)
5th: Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler bonus)
Now Dervish-ready (Int 13+ and human means 4 skill points/level minimum. Maxing Perform (dance) and Tumble as CC means skills and feats done by 3rd level. Now just need BAB.)
Dervish gives free spring attack, grab ITWF at 6th and GTWF at 12th, get into Tempest.


I'm really unimpressed by the tempest. Ambidexterity is nice, as is tempest defense, but you're sacrificing 5 levels to basically get +2 attack (ambidexterity) and +3 armor class (tempest defense)...none of their other stuff is useful at all, especially to a dervish. I think you'd do better with two more levels of swashbuckler (+int to damage) than those last two levels of tempest. it costs you +1 to hit and +1 armor class, instead getting +int to damage and +1 reflex save.

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-20, 08:53 AM
Ooh ooh, very important. Get Versatile Flanker if you can. Makes all squares you threaten count for Flanking purposes. If it doesn't work the way I'm thinking, you may need to get your flanking buddy to pick it up instead.

Swooper
2007-06-20, 09:43 AM
I'd like to point out the fact that Weapon Finesse does not work for a scimitar by RAW. I agree it's a fair houserule, but as written, WF only works for light weapons, rapiers, whips and spiked chains.

Droodle
2007-06-20, 09:45 AM
I'd like to point out the fact that Weapon Finesse does not work for a scimitar by RAW. I agree it's a fair houserule, but as written, WF only works for light weapons, rapiers, whips and spiked chains.Finessing the Scimitar is a class feature of the Dervish PrC.

Swooper
2007-06-20, 09:52 AM
Finessing the Scimitar is a class feature of the Dervish PrC.
Ah, now it all makes sense. Ignore me.

bigbaddragon
2007-06-20, 10:25 AM
Talya I mean no disrespect but I have to ask why do you insist on Swashbuckler levels besides int bonus to damage, is it really that better than scouts +4d6 skirmish damage from the build I posted? Plus my build allows you to apply that damage to your favored enemies regardless if they are subject to precision damage or not.

Also I saw you post regarding online char sheets so I think you're the right person to ask if there are any non online sheets that would support five or six classes?

And you're absolutely right about tempest.

Talya
2007-06-20, 10:55 AM
I'd like to point out the fact that Weapon Finesse does not work for a scimitar by RAW. I agree it's a fair houserule, but as written, WF only works for light weapons, rapiers, whips and spiked chains.

Finesse works on all light weapons.

For the Dervish, a scimitar becomes a light weapon for all purposes. Ergo, a dervish can finesse a scimitar.

Talya
2007-06-20, 11:00 AM
Talya I mean no disrespect but I have to ask why do you insist on Swashbuckler levels besides int bonus to damage, is it really that better than scouts +4d6 skirmish damage from the build I posted? Plus my build allows you to apply that damage to your favored enemies regardless if they are subject to precision damage or not.


I consider the dervish a heavy battlefield combatant, despite the light armor. As such I cringe at losing the hit points and 2 points of BAB that 5 levels of scout would require. Nevertheless, scout and dervish do mix very well together. However, even if I used scout, I would still use 3 levels of swashbuckler. +int to damage and +1 reflex save is a better use of two levels than being allowed to take weapon specialization, if you plan at all to have somewhat high intelligence (14 starting int + 6 from items means you've got +5 to damage in each hand.)

3 swashbuckler, 2 fighter, 5 scout, 10 dervish is a decent build.

I've never seen a character sheet that easily supports lots of classes, btw.

Maerok
2007-06-20, 11:18 AM
Is a Monk/Devish possible? Using Flurry of Blows + Dervish Dance for an ungodly number of attacks? And then throw in TWF feat chain (just for the sake of mass attacks, rather than efficient attack rolls because when you're making like 10 attacks a round something is bound to stick)?

Hmm, I like to use Fighter 2 for some easy feats when going for a melee build.

Rad
2007-06-20, 11:19 AM
I've never seen a character sheet that easily supports lots of classes, btw.

Me neither, so I made one :smalltongue: don't know how to send it though.

I love the scout/ranger build... I'm tempted to use it somewhere.

Droodle
2007-06-20, 11:24 AM
Scout 3/Ranger 3/Dervish 10/Ranger 4

Take Swift Hunter and use the Complete Champion non-casting Ranger variant for the extra feats. Int to damage is nice....but you can always spend the int on a different stat for (more or less) equal benefit. With the right feats, this guy is applying 5d6 precision damage to every attack he makes......and he also gets to apply that precision damage to his favored enemies.

Talya
2007-06-20, 11:27 AM
Scout 3/Ranger 3/Dervish 10/Ranger 4

Take Swift Hunter and use the Complete Champion non-casting Ranger variant for the extra feats. Int to damage is nice....but you can always spend the int on a different stat for (more or less) equal benefit.

What's the point of Scout3? That only gives you +1d6 damage. You can't take Improved Skirmish until your skirmish damage is already +2d6, which means Scout5.

I tend to never drop Int below 14 on any character. For that matter, dervish REQUIRES int 13 (combat expertise), so one would be crazy not to have at least Int 14 for the extra skill point. Where are you going to spend that extra point for so much more benefit?

bigbaddragon
2007-06-20, 12:00 PM
Rad, when you click on my name (left side) there is an option to send me email. Could you do it that way?

Talya: you would lose only 1 BAB with my build scout 4/fighter1/ranger1 and by taking swift hunter for your 6th feat you would have +2d6 skirmish damage and thus qualify for improved skirmish.

Rad
2007-06-20, 12:08 PM
Scout and ranger stack, so you have +2d6 by level 5.
I understand wanting a high int character totally, but that does not mean that I have to put int to damage. Supposing int 14 (Ok, let's put the extra point in there) 3 levels of skirmish improvements are almost 1d6 of damage more. the average would be 3.5>2. I would not know what to do with my head slot (since I wouldn't need the obvious headband of intellect anymore, but I am sure you can make something of it. Plus you could boost some other stat (like con) with the budget.

EDIT: to bigbaddragon: sure; for odd reasons I have four versions: English, Italian and either Letter or A4 size. For slightly more obvious reasons the more updated version is the A4/ITA one :smallwink:

bigbaddragon
2007-06-20, 12:15 PM
To Rad: you have my eternal gratitude :smallsmile: . Just notify me when you send those and if theres any problems I'll post you my email so you could do it manually/

Talya
2007-06-20, 12:19 PM
Scout and ranger stack, so you have +2d6 by level 5.
I understand wanting a high int character totally, but that does not mean that I have to put int to damage. Supposing int 14 (Ok, let's put the extra point in there) 3 levels of skirmish improvements are almost 1d6 of damage more. the average would be 3.5>2. I would not know what to do with my head slot (since I wouldn't need the obvious headband of intellect anymore, but I am sure you can make something of it. Plus you could boost some other stat (like con) with the budget.

EDIT: to bigbaddragon: sure; for odd reasons I have four versions: English, Italian and either Letter or A4 size. For slightly more obvious reasons the more updated version is the A4/ITA one :smallwink:

3.5 < 5 though (14 int +6 headband of intellect).

What abilities from scout and ranger other than skirmish improve with swift hunter? What are the requirements of swift hunter?

bigbaddragon
2007-06-20, 12:32 PM
Prerequisites: favored enemy and skirmish +1d6/+1AC.

Benefits:
1) Your ranger and scout level stack when determining skirmish damage and AC (ranger 1/scout 4 would have skirmish +2d6/+1AC)

2) Your ranger and scout level stack when determining how many favored enemies you have (ranger 1/scout 4 would also have two favored enemies with all the normal bonuses against them like a ranger 5)

3) (The bestest) Your skirmish damage applies against any favored enemy even if he is normally immune to extra damage from critical hits and skirmish damage.

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-20, 12:41 PM
To be fair, if there's any PrCs out there that grant Combat Expertise as a Bonus Feat(instead of from a list), you can also sac Intelligence.

Person_Man
2007-06-20, 01:32 PM
Average base damage scales:

Skirmish: +0.875 per level
Power Attack: +1 per level
Sneak Attack: +1.75 per level
Power Attack 2 handed: +2 per level
Leap Attack: +2 per level
Leap Attack 2 handed: +3 or +4 per level, depending on how your DM reads the errata.
Spell Damage: +3.5 per level

Precision damage is just a nifty bonus for Skill Monkeys so they're not useless. Yes, you can squeeze more damage out with TWF, but a full BAB build has a higher To-Hit, more attacks, and an easier time getting more attacks or multiplied damage using various feats and abilities. And it has serious restrictions, making your build SOL when you fight undead, constructs, plants, etc. So it's clearly not a useful way to maximize a melee build. Stick with Swash, Fighter, and/or Barbarian for your Dervish entry.

You might want to look here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=629013) for build advice.

I'm going to make the unorthodox suggestion of Barbarian 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Frostrager 5.

Using the Complete Champion variant, your Barbarian gets Pounce for free at 1st level. This by itself sorta negates the need to ever take Dervish levels, but hey, this is a Dervish thread. So now you get a full attack every round, even if you're out of Dervish Dance uses. Pick up the Whirling Frenzy Rage variant for an extra attack, or the Ferocity variant for a bonus to Dex. The second level gives you precious Uncanny Dodge.

Swash 3/ gets you free Weapon Finesse and Int to damage.

Dervish 10. Yeah.

Frostrager (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=3)? OK, here's why. With the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat from the PHBII, your unarmed strikes count as bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. Slashing means that it counts for all Dervish abilities. The Snap Kick feat from ToB gives you another attack. One-Two Punch gives you another attack. Rend gives you another auto-hit attack every time you hit one target twice (and with your Dance, you should be hitting everyone on the battlefield at least twice). You have full BAB and Rage, so your To-Hit should be pretty high. Unarmed Attacks count for Weapon Finesse (Insightful Strike) and Power Attack and they count as light weapons for TWF.

Plus here's the real kicker - you're healed by Cold damage. So have your party casters take Energy Substitution and dump Cold Fireballs into the middle of the battlefield while you dance around beating the tar out of your enemies.

It's insanely feat hungry, not even close to a powerful build, and its combo doesn't kick in until high levels. But hey, its original.

Having said that, the Dervish has steep entry requirements and abilities that aren't particularly useful given the existence of Pounce, Hustle, Grant Move Action, White Raven Tactics, etc. So I would avoid it.

Droodle
2007-06-20, 03:19 PM
Average base damage scales:

Skirmish: +0.875 per level
Power Attack: +1 per level
Sneak Attack: +1.75 per level
Power Attack 2 handed: +2 per level
Leap Attack: +2 per level
Leap Attack 2 handed: +3 or +4 per level, depending on how your DM reads the errata.
Spell Damage: +3.5 per level
One thing your math fails to take into account, here, is that a Scout 3/Ranger 7/Dervish 10 is going to be hitting a lot more often than a power attacking dervish. Since every one of his 7 attacks at level 20 will be applying 5d6 or so precision damage at the cost of but a single point of BAB, he has a distinct advantage over a power attacking two weapon fighter. Not only that, but he'll even be able to apply this precision damage to the 3 crit immune creature types he chooses as favored enemies.

Sure, we could come up with some pounce variant cheese which renders the entire Dervish PrC obsolete at level 1, but we all know that, sooner or later, this one's gonna get errata'd. It's also important to point out that, unlike your typical charging build which specializes in sacrificing defense instead of accuracy, the Scout/Ranger/Dervish can actually apply his massive precision damage without sacrificing defense. A Dervish is going to last a lot longer in a throng of enemies than a fighter who is sacrificing defense to make sure his power attacks hit.

bigbaddragon
2007-06-20, 03:41 PM
Also if you add elusive target feat, opponents who power attack and you dodge them are not going to feel nice after their charge with no AC and none bonus damage dealt with their power attack (elusive target negates power attack bonus damage from a foe you dodge and the power attack user still suffers his power attack penalties to AC or BAB)

Draz74
2007-06-20, 03:43 PM
I usually prefer predictable flat bonuses to dice bonuses,

There's a good reason for this besides aesthetics. Crits! Scimitars have a great crit range. At mid/high levels (after you've already qualified for Dervish), you can take Improved Critical or buy Keen scimitars, and you'll be getting a LOT of crits.

So, when comparing +Int to damage or +2d6 damage for your precision needs, keep in mind, the +Int will be doubled about 1/4 times! While the +2d6 will be unaffected by the crits.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-20, 04:11 PM
So, when comparing +Int to damage or +2d6 damage for your precision needs, keep in mind, the +Int will be doubled about 1/4 times! While the +2d6 will be unaffected by the crits.

Going with your 1/4 crits* you need at least a +6 bonus to damage from intelligence to make it better than +2d6.


*: It will be less obviously, but we have room for that since +5.6 to int is equal to +2d6 under the 1/4 assumption.

bigbaddragon
2007-06-20, 04:27 PM
Is that swashbuckler int bonus to damage a precision damage? If so, it doesn't multiply on crits.

Also 1/4 your attack rolls will be critical threats bu not all of them will be confirmed. You should also take that under consideration.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-20, 04:48 PM
Is that swashbuckler int bonus to damage a precision damage? If so, it doesn't multiply on crits.

Whether the damage is precision based is irrelevant with respect to critical hits.

What matters is if it is a straight bonus or additional bonus dice.


Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

Draz74
2007-06-20, 04:52 PM
*: It will be less obviously, but we have room for that since +5.6 to int is equal to +2d6 under the 1/4 assumption.


You sure? I'm assuming most crit threats will be confirmed. I guess that depends on the caliber of the opponents' ACs. And with a threat range of 15-20, that's a 30% chance of a crit threat on every attack roll.

Plus, there's always the other ways that a straight bonus is better than extra damage dice. Specifically, the "randomness always hurts PCs" principle.

Talya
2007-06-20, 04:54 PM
Note that a dervish that power attacks should skip scimitars altogether and go with a 2 hander, like a falchion. For that matter, a dervish CANNOT power attack with a scimitar, as they treat scimitars as light weapons "for all purposes." Usually this is a positive, but not in this case, and I see no exception for power attack purposes.

Of course, that wastes a whole lot of damage, the +5 untyped bonus dervish gets naturally is best when applied to two weapons rather than just one...although their +5 untyped attack bonus can be converted to double-damage with power attack, which is pretty darn good, too.

And whether or not it's precision damage makes no difference as to whether its multiplied on a crit, as has been said. Swashbuckler insightful strike is definitely multiplied by a crit. The only negative of precision damage is it doesn't apply to any target that is immune to critical hits.

Talya
2007-06-20, 05:04 PM
Oh, and where are we getting the "1/4" figure from? They're going to have 30% of their attacks threaten to crit. (How many succeed will depend greatly on the AC of the opponent.)

bigbaddragon
2007-06-20, 05:12 PM
Sorry, my bad, my bad, tired, numerical abilities decreased ...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-20, 05:17 PM
You sure? I'm assuming most crit threats will be confirmed. I guess that depends on the caliber of the opponents' ACs. And with a threat range of 15-20, that's a 30% chance of a crit threat on every attack roll.

It depends greatly on the opponents AC and you need targets with really low ACs to be able to convert that 30 % threat rate into even a 25 % crit rate.

Furthermore, even with a 30 % crit rate you still need a bonus of 5.25 (or 6 as I said) to damage to keep up with the +2d6.


Plus, there's always the other ways that a straight bonus is better than extra damage dice. Specifically, the "randomness always hurts PCs" principle.


Take a moment to consider that you are relying on critical hits to match the randomness :smallamused:
Besides the variance of two 6-sided dice is not much of a problem when you roll them often enough.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-20, 05:32 PM
Oh, and where are we getting the "1/4" figure from? They're going to have 30% of their attacks threaten to crit. (How many succeed will depend greatly on the AC of the opponent.)

A crit rate of 25 % is highly unlikely under any reasonable assumptions about opponents AC.

Assuming that we actually hit on a threat in the first place:

Crit rate = P(threat|threat = hit)P(hit)

Solving this using a crit rate of 25 % and a threat rate of 30 %:

P(hit) = 5/6

This means that we can only be allowed to miss on one out of 6 attacks or that we are only allowed to miss on a d20 roll of 1, 2 or 3.

Talya
2007-06-20, 05:35 PM
It depends greatly on the opponents AC and you need targets with really low ACs to be able to convert that 30 % threat rate into even a 25 % crit rate.

Furthermore, even with a 30 % crit rate you still need a bonus of 5.25 (or 6 as I said) to damage to keep up with the +2d6.



Take a moment to consider that you are relying on critical hits to match the randomness :smallamused:
Besides the variance of two 6-sided dice is not much of a problem when you roll them often enough.

The only way a 3 level dip in swashbuckler costs you 2d6 damage is if you would otherwise be going rogue (and then you can make up for it by taking Daring Outlaw, which makes your 3 swashbuckler levels grant another +2d6 sneak attack.) I don't like sneak attack dice because the vast majority of attacks you make will not get to apply them (especially as a dervish,) if I were trying to get bonus dice, Skirmish, despite it's slower progression, is more appealling, and 3 levels of swashbuckler won't cost you more than 1d6 bonus damage dice in that scenario.

Talya
2007-06-20, 05:40 PM
A crit rate of 25 % is highly unlikely under any reasonable assumptions about opponents AC.

Assuming that we actually hit on a threat in the first place:

Crit rate = P(threat|threat = hit)P(hit)

Solving this using a crit rate of 25 % and a threat rate of 30 %:

P(hit) = 5/6

This means that we can only be allowed to miss on one out of 6 attacks or that we are only allowed to miss on a d20 roll of 1, 2 or 3.

Or to make it much simpler:

To calculate your actual crit rate: Multiply your chance to crit by your chance to hit.

For example:

30% threat rate X 95% hit rate = 29% crit rate.
30% threat rate X 75% hit rate = 23% crit rate.
30% threat rate X 50% hit rate = 15% crit rate.
30% threat rate x 30% hit rate = 9% crit rate.
25%* threat rate X 25% hit rate = 6% crit rate.

*You may have a 30% chance to threaten a crit normally, but your actual chance to threaten a crit cannot exceed your chance to hit, because a miss does not threaten.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-20, 05:50 PM
Or to make it much simpler:

It is not simpler, it is the same. :smallwink:


To calculate your actual crit rate: Multiply your chance to crit by your chance to hit.


Chance to threaten, not "chance to crit".
But otherwise you are golden.


Sorry, I certainly do not mean to be a donkey... just an aberration :smallamused:

Aximili
2007-06-20, 08:18 PM
Out of curiosity now, a question to everyone who suggested something:
how would you explain your build/preference Roleplaywise?

That is, how would you phrase the characters background in order to make a scout/dervish (or whatever else) make sense?

Wih
2007-06-20, 08:24 PM
Maerok - Yes, though you have to grab the feat Versatile Unarmed Strike from PHBII (in order to do slashing damage with your Unarmed Strike), or use a Monk weapon.

Talya
2007-06-20, 08:46 PM
Out of curiosity now, a question to everyone who suggested something:
how would you explain your build/preference Roleplaywise?

That is, how would you phrase the characters background in order to make a scout/dervish (or whatever else) make sense?

Dervish is a highly trained blademaster...footwork is paramount. There are all sorts of ways to play it well. You can take the "Dance" portion literally and be a courtesan-assassin belly-dancer, or you can take it as mere martial training. As such, it fits fine with any trained combat class. The class doesn't have any specialized flavor per se, it blends well with anything.

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-20, 10:22 PM
Rend gives you another auto-hit attack every time you hit one target twice (and with your Dance, you should be hitting everyone on the battlefield at least twice).

Interestingly, unlike the monster ability of the same name, Frostrager's Rend does not appear to be limited to once per round, so as long as you land 2 hits per target on separate targets, you can Rend half as many times as you have attacks.

bigbaddragon
2007-06-21, 01:58 AM
Aximili: I think that the general description of dervish class explains my
fighter/ranger/scout build pretty much. It says that most dervishes belong to nomadic cultures and tribes (presumably their life is more connected to the natural surroundings) and serve as their most fearsome and cunning protectors.

So from my point of view dervish is a warrior (fighter levels) which knows how to respect and survive nature (ranger levels) and which is also smart enough to think before he/she acts and realize that stealth and mobility are his/hers powerful allies (when combined) that can easily prove to be a better course of action rather than just charging into the mess as soon as possible (scout levels).

Rad
2007-06-21, 03:09 AM
that use of rend seems a bit against RAI to me while the ranger/scout/dervish build is not.

With 3 levels of swashbuckler, you lose a lot of skirmish: scout 3 gives you a mere 1d6 (as would scout 1/ranger2) which would also preclude improved skirmish. 4d6 are way better than 1d6+5. And I would like to point out that 4d6 and +6 Con is even better.
Scout1/swashbuckler3/ranger3 would mean dervish one level later and improved skirmish one level later since you do not qualify at level 6. Getting the +Int damage could be nice for a dervish in addition to skirmish though; but I do not know if it is worth slowing down dervish progression. It could be nice for the last 4 levels though.
I would keep scout+ranger for at least 5 levels to get the second favored enemy tho. adding skirmish to immune targets seems too vital to pass by.

If the +Int is precision damage you do not apply it to a lot of targets, while swift hunter lets you target undead and constructs (or other 2 categories) with skirmish. Undead are also very well fitting for fluff reasons.

all in all... I'd say Scout 2/ranger2/scout+2/dervish X. Endurance and Animal Companion are not that great compared to what the scout gets for the same BAB and skills. for the last four levels... swashbuckler sounds good and one could also consider putting it somewhere in the middle.

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-21, 05:55 AM
For Frostrager's Rend:


In any round that the Frostrager

Which suggests it's once per round.


hits a target with 2 attacks, they can immediately rend for (extra damage here).

Which implies that it's once per round per target.

bigbaddragon
2007-06-21, 06:02 AM
Rad, what did you mean by +6 Cos? I didn't understand that.

Btw those character sheets never got to my mail so could you send them manually to "[email protected]"?

Droodle
2007-06-21, 06:37 AM
all in all... I'd say Scout 2/ranger2/scout+2/dervish X. Endurance and Animal Companion are not that great compared to what the scout gets for the same BAB and skills. for the last four levels... swashbuckler sounds good and one could also consider putting it somewhere in the middle.You'd want to add at least one level of Swashbuckler before taking your first Dervish level if you intend to take Swash levels. Otherwise, you are wasting a feat slot (on weapon finess) when you could have gotten it for free. As I see it, you either want to go Rogue/Swash/Dervish with Daring outlaw or Scout/Ranger/Dervish with swift hunter. If you try to mix them together, you really just end up watering down your build.

Aximili
2007-06-21, 11:59 AM
If the +Int is precision damage you do not apply it to a lot of targets, while swift hunter lets you target undead and constructs (or other 2 categories) with skirmish. Undead are also very well fitting for fluff reasons.
Well, insightful strike is precision damage and doesn't apply to crit-immune criatures. But, just to make something clear:

What defines if the damage will or won't be apllied to critical-immune Creatures is not the fact that it is or isn't precision damage. It's own description is supposed to say so.
The favored enemy damage, for instance, is precision damage that applies against undead. And if it were an exception, it would mention it specifically.

Rad
2007-06-21, 12:12 PM
Rad, what did you mean by +6 Cos? I didn't understand that.

EDIT: It was a typo. I meant "Con".

We were assuming a +5 Int modifier due to an headband of intellect +6. If you do not follow the swashbuckler route you do not need that and can invest the gold giving +6 to some other stat, like Con. (assuming that we all agree that the +6 Dex item is a no-brainer). Actually, Str could be a solid option too.

Iku Rex
2007-06-21, 12:28 PM
Rad, I think you mean Con.

Rad
2007-06-21, 04:50 PM
Rad, I think you mean Con.

Uhu nice call... sorry about that. Guess what the first three letters of the Italian word for "Constitution" are?

bigbaddragon
2007-06-21, 04:56 PM
Cos? :smallsmile: