Barding for animal form Druid.

[Spacehamster]

So were thinking how rare/costly it would be to get your hands on a hide armor that when you transform into a beast form turns into a fitting hide barding? :)

[Lines]

Not costly at all, it says most magic items change based on the size and shape of the wearer, no word on how long that takes. Grab some magic armour and it'll transform with you.

[indemnity]

So were thinking how rare/costly it would be to get your hands on a hide armor that when you transform into a beast form turns into a fitting hide barding? :)

Very easy to obtain and fairly cheap (40 gp, 24 lbs, AC12 + Dex mod (max. 2)). It takes 5 minutes to don medium armor, which presumably would happen each time you take beast form. I'm not sure about proficiency.

From the Player's Handbook p.155:
Barding. Barding is armor designed to protect an animal’s head, neck, chest, and body. Any type of armor shown on the Armor table in this chapter can be purchased as barding. The cost is four times the equivalent armor made for humanoids, and it weighs twice as much.

[RickAllison]

I have a question about this passage:


You choose whether your equipment falls to the
ground in your space, merges into your new form, or
is worn by it.

Unlike in previous paragraphs, they don't refer to it as the "beast form" or "animal form" but "new form". I'm not sure if there have been any rulings on it, but couldn't that passage then apply in reverse? I.e. if you got barding for your bear form, when you switched back it would merge into your regular form and just be unusable? You would have to spend money to bard up every form you wanted, but it could be worth it if something hasn't come out to the contrary. :smallsmile:

Admittedly, the real question is whether many of the forms even benefit that much :smallbiggrin:

[Lines]

I have a question about this passage:



Unlike in previous paragraphs, they don't refer to it as the "beast form" or "animal form" but "new form". I'm not sure if there have been any rulings on it, but couldn't that passage then apply in reverse? I.e. if you got barding for your bear form, when you switched back it would merge into your regular form and just be unusable? You would have to spend money to bard up every form you wanted, but it could be worth it if something hasn't come out to the contrary. :smallsmile:

Admittedly, the real question is whether many of the forms even benefit that much :smallbiggrin:

AC is often pretty low, a bonus of +5 and whatever magical bonus the armour has will usually outweigh magic armour.

[Ruslan]

So were thinking how rare/costly it would be to get your hands on a hide armor that when you transform into a beast form turns into a fitting hide barding? :)
By RAW, impossible.


Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it.
If your DM is so inclined, he may allow you to find/craft a custom magic armor that breaks this rule, of course. Personally I'd go with Very Rare.

[Lines]

By RAW, impossible.


If your DM is so inclined, he may allow you to find/craft a custom magic armor that breaks this rule, of course. Personally I'd go with Very Rare.

Except that magic items resize for their wearer, so just get some magic armour and you're fine.

[Regitnui]

Except that magic items resize for their wearer, so just get some magic armour and you're fine.

Is that resize for 'humanoid wearer', like it was worn by a human but will adjust to a Goliath or halfling? Looking at RAW, the line is

In most cases, a magic item that's made to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer.

That sounds a lot more like changing size of plates and tension on the connectors rather than a radical shape alteration. Only an ape has a similar build to a humanoid. So unless your druid changes to an ape all the time, their magic armour merges or falls off. A changeling who goes from elf to dwarf wouldn't have the problem, however.

This sounds like a DM decision. I'd personally just scale the armour's rarity up a notch and say it then has the major shape changing ability necessary to go from fitting an elf to fitting a wolf.

[RickAllison]

Is that resize for 'humanoid wearer', like it was worn by a human but will adjust to a Goliath or halfling? Looking at RAW, the line is


That sounds a lot more like changing size of plates and tension on the connectors rather than a radical shape alteration. Only an ape has a similar build to a humanoid. So unless your druid changes to an ape all the time, their magic armour merges or falls off. A changeling who goes from elf to dwarf wouldn't have the problem, however.

This sounds like a DM decision. I'd personally just scale the armour's rarity up a notch and say it then has the major shape changing ability necessary to go from fitting an elf to fitting a wolf.

Why couldn't you just quote the paragraph after next? Totally relevant to the discussion :smalltongue:


When a nonhumanoid tries to wear an item, use your
discretion as to whether the item functions as intended.
A ring placed on a tentacle might work, but a yuan-ti
with a snakelike tail instead of legs can't wear boots.

So there is precedent that a magic armor might work, but (like everything to do with magic items and the game) it is up to the DM.

[Regitnui]

Why couldn't you just quote the paragraph after next? Totally relevant to the discussion :smalltongue:

So there is precedent that a magic armor might work, but (like everything to do with magic items and the game) it is up to the DM.

Mine apologies. Duly noted, with the additional idea that like 3.5, differently-shaped creatures may craft items not designed for humanoids: a dragon's "leggings of speed" (adapted boots) aren't ever going to fit a humanoid.

[Lines]

Mine apologies. Duly noted, with the additional idea that like 3.5, differently-shaped creatures may craft items not designed for humanoids: a dragon's "leggings of speed" (adapted boots) aren't ever going to fit a humanoid.

Yes they are.


In most cases, a magic item that's made to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer.

[Cespenar]

You don't need barding for Druid that much, really. It's quite tanky as it is. I've never been popped out of all my forms in any given day.

[Lines]

True, but there's no reason that they shouldn't be able to either.

[RickAllison]

I'm still a fan of the idea that the equipment melding goes both ways. There is something about a halfling wearing a robe suddenly transforming into a bear wearing spiked armor that appeals to me :smallbiggrin:

[Regitnui]

Yes they are.


In most cases, a magic item that's made to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer.

I'm not taking about size, I'm talking about shape. the back of a dragon's leg is incredibly different in shape to the leg of a humanoid. Maybe a dragonborn could wear it, but magic can't do everything.

[Lines]

I'm not taking about size, I'm talking about shape. the back of a dragon's leg is incredibly different in shape to the leg of a humanoid. Maybe a dragonborn could wear it, but magic can't do everything.



In most cases, a magic item that's made to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer.

[Regitnui]

In most cases, a magic item that's made to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer.

Are you telling me that something designed to fit a creature who's back leg has more akin to a lion and is two to four times the player character's size will magically change both shape and size to fit a creature it was never supposed to?
That kinda ruins verisimilitude. And dragons have a hoard anyway, where you can put magic items that will fit the PCs without having to handwave it away.

[Lines]

Are you telling me that something designed to fit a creature who's back leg has more akin to a lion and is two to four times the player character's size will magically change both shape and size to fit a creature it was never supposed to?
That kinda ruins verisimilitude. And dragons have a hoard anyway, where you can put magic items that will fit the PCs without having to handwave it away.

Considering it's a magical item stated to change in both shape and size? Yes.

[Regitnui]

Considering it's a magical item stated to change in both shape and size? Yes.

:smallconfused:

http://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/images/news/2000-2007.jpg

OK, if you say so. I guess the dragons might draft shapechanging items because they have alternate form abilities... I'll still say that there are magic items that just won't fit humanoids.

[RickAllison]

Considering it's a magical item stated to change in both shape and size? Yes.

Let's remember what kind of items we are dealing with here. When you have a rod that is a mace on its own, but switches into a flame blade, a battleaxe, a full-length spear, a 50-foot climbing pole, a battering ram, and that acts as both a compass and depth gauge, I think the concept of verisimilitude with the items goes out the window :smallwink:

[Regitnui]

Let's remember what kind of items we are dealing with here. When you have a rod that is a mace on its own, but switches into a flame blade, a battleaxe, a full-length spear, a 50-foot climbing pole, a battering ram, and that acts as both a compass and depth gauge, I think the concept of verisimilitude with the items goes out the window :smallwink:

You really have to ask what kind of drunken party made that item sound like a good idea?

I can see where everyone is coming from. Having a magic item not fit, whatever the apparently inviolable RAW says, is a good way to emphasize different magical traditions or extraplanar magic.

[RickAllison]

You really have to ask what kind of drunken party made that item sound like a good idea?

I can see where everyone is coming from. Having a magic item not fit, whatever the apparently inviolable RAW says, is a good way to emphasize different magical traditions or extraplanar magic.

Of course; in-between the passage you mentioned and mine, there was a tidbit about Drow equipment possibly only fitting elves and similar restrictions for dwarven heirlooms, but the default is the changing size. Otherwise, how could they have those ancient dragons using all the magic items in their hoard?

[Regitnui]

Of course; in-between the passage you mentioned and mine, there was a tidbit about Drow equipment possibly only fitting elves and similar restrictions for dwarven heirlooms, but the default is the changing size. Otherwise, how could they have those ancient dragons using all the magic items in their hoard?

An interesting titbit from Eberron's dragons is also the reason why they hoard; At the end of the War with the Fiends, the dragons had hundreds or thousands of magic items that the fiends made for themselves. The dragons couldn't use them, fearing corruption, and so gave them to their best warriors to guard. Soon, having a pile of relics left from the War was a status symbol, and other dragons began collecting less dangerous but valuable items like gems and gold for their own hoards. Now, it's the hoard that matters, not the items left over from the fiends, but being entrusted with the guardianship of such an item is still a great honour.

[Ruslan]

The magic items section in the DMG states magic items usually change to match to wearer's form and size.
The Wild Shape section in the PHB states the druids equipment never changes to match his new form.

Specific trumps general. "Never" (for a Druid Wild Shape) trumps "usually" (for most magic items). RAI can be interepreted in various ways, of course, but RAW in this case is pretty clear.

[RickAllison]

The magic items section in the DMG states magic items usually change to match to wearer's form and size.
The Wild Shape section in the PHB states the druids equipment never changes to match his new form.

Specific trumps general. "Never" (for a Druid Wild Shape) trumps "usually" (for most magic items). RAI can be interepreted in various ways, of course, but RAW in this case is pretty clear.

On the other hand (and as an interpretation that makes FAR more sense), the general rule is that equipment is non-magical. All that non-magical equipment does not change by the specific wording of Wild Shape. Magic items have a clause stating that they can change forms, which is another example of a specific rule differentiating those from normal equipment.

Remember that as far as the PHB is concerned, magic items don't exist.

[Ruslan]

On the other hand (and as an interpretation that makes FAR more sense), the general rule is that equipment is non-magical. All that non-magical equipment does not change by the specific wording of Wild Shape. Magic items have a clause stating that they can change forms, which is another example of a specific rule differentiating those from normal equipment.

Nice attempt to twist it, the word "never" clearly indicates specific, while the words "usually" or "most" clearly indicated general.


Remember that as far as the PHB is concerned, magic items don't exist.
One cannot "remember" what never was in the first place.

The adventurers can solve puzzles, talk with
other characters, battle fantastic monsters, and discover
fabulous magic items and other treasure.
It's in the friggin' introduction, for crying out loud.

[RickAllison]

Nice attempt to twist it, the word "never" clearly indicates specific, while the words "usually" or "most" clearly indicated general.


One cannot "remember" what never was in the first place.

It's in the friggin' introduction, for crying out loud.

Why are you weighing one specific rule over another specific rule? Does Wild Shape call out magic items as not changing to overrule the other specific rule? Then it doesn't. Specific vs. General is a handy tool for rule analysis, but you have to be careful about where things become specific.

Wild Shape's text clarifies that it doesn't change equipment to fit the new form. Magic items have text that allows many of them to change to new forms. The rules work perfectly fine together because Wild Shape doesn't change the equipment (fitting that text), the magic item changes itself (fitting that text). Where is the problem you are seeing?

[Douche]

The real question we should be asking ourselves is "Druiding for animal form Bard"

[RickAllison]

The real question we should be asking ourselves is "Druiding for animal form Bard"

I have toyed with the idea of enlisting the aid of woodland creatures through charisma to overthrow their biped oppressors. Glibness, Expertise (Persuasion and Animal Handling), it would be awesome :smallsmile:

[Regitnui]

Remember that as far as the PHB is concerned, magic items don't exist.

Don't fall into that logic trap. Just because the game can, for the first time, be played without feats and magic items doesn't mean neither exist just because you have to check with the DM.

I'd honestly go with wild shape, and have the magic items' ability to follow a druid's shifting be something that's both notable for the world and specific to a druid organization. A fighter shouldn't expect to be able to wear a storm giant's breastplate because the rules say magic items "adjust".

[RickAllison]

Don't fall into that logic trap. Just because the game can, for the first time, be played without feats and magic items doesn't mean neither exist just because you have to check with the DM.

I'd honestly go with wild shape, and have the magic items' ability to follow a druid's shifting be something that's both notable for the world and specific to a druid organization. A fighter shouldn't expect to be able to wear a storm giant's breastplate because the rules say magic items "adjust".

I've always liked the idea that it can't change more than one size band. So a Huge storm giant's magic breastplate couldn't be worn by a Medium human, but he could claim the enchanted armor of a Large glabrezu. It would mean the druid could take advantage of the magic items for most forms, but not an elephant, giant constrictor snake/crocodile/elk/shark, killer whale, or mammoth, nor could they use it for Tiny forms like the lizard, owl, or poisonous snake.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

The real question we should be asking ourselves is "Druiding for animal form Bard"

This is true, and worthy of full acceptance.

While I don't see any particular reason why you couldn't do this, there are a few points worth bearing in mind.

1. Armour and natural armour don't stack. The barding will only be an advantage if it's actually better than the creature's NA (so it's a good bet on a bear, not such a good bet on an Ankylosaur.

2. Arguably, you don't retain your armour proficiencies, depending on whether one considers them to be part of your game statistics or a class feature.