Monk Belt and wild shaping into a Secundus

[Pale Sun]

Situation: Planar Shepherd (with no Monk levels) wild shapes into a Secundus while wearing a Monk Belt.

"Though they have no class levels, Secundi have all the class features of a 13th-level monk"

Does this mean that by RAW I get to add 1+Wisdom to AC for the Monk Belt and 2+Wisdom to AC being a Secundus?
They're untiped boni after all so they should stack.

[Psyren]

What book is Secundus from?

I'd say it depends on how your GM reads the lines "if the character is not a monk", and the exact wording of the secundus ability.

[Pale Sun]

What book is Secundus from?

I'd say it depends on how your GM reads the lines "if the character is not a monk", and the exact wording of the secundus ability.

Secundi are from the Manual of the Planes Modrons Web Enhancement.

The ability explicitely says that a Secundus doesnt have any class level in the Monk class.

[Psyren]

Secundi are from the Manual of the Planes Modrons Web Enhancement.

The ability explicitely says that a Secundus doesnt have any class level in the Monk class.

Ah, thank you - yes, I'd say you get Wis to AC from both sources. You have the Wis to AC of a monk, but you're explicitly not a monk, so the belt's "not a monk" feature triggers and you get Wis to AC again.

[Pale Sun]

Ah, thank you - yes, I'd say you get Wis to AC from both sources. You have the Wis to AC of a monk, but you're explicitly not a monk, so the belt's "not a monk" feature triggers and you get Wis to AC again.

Well I must say thats really nice then. Thanks for confirmation.

[Arael666]

I would have to say no.

From SRD


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Both are class features with the same name, it does't matter if you have a bazilion of them. Just take a look at the trap sense ability, it explicitly states that bonuses from different sources stack, if that were not the case they wouldn't, wich is exactly the problem with AC bonus from monk.

[Khedrac]

Not to mention you wrote:
Situation: Planar Shepherd (with no Monk levels) wild shapes into a Secundus while wearing a Monk Belt. (emphasis mine)

Now this means that the belt merges into your new form and becomes non-functional.

Next time wildshape first and don the belt second.

[eggynack]

Not to mention you wrote: (emphasis mine)

Now this means that the belt merges into your new form and becomes non-functional.

Next time wildshape first and don the belt second.
Feh. Wilding clasps are a thing.

Anyways, I don't think the belt does anything. You get the stuff of a 5th level monk, but you already have that and then some. You're basically getting treated as a 5th level monk twice, and that doesn't do anything, and that's probably true even without the stacking rules. Long story short, you'd actually be better off with real monk levels.

[eggynack]

The way I read it (by RAW) is that I get bonus AC from a source that considers me a 5th level Monk AND bonus AC from a source that considers me a 13th level Monk. However since Im only considered a Monk and not actually one (it explicitely says Secundi dont have any class level in Monk), the ability Secundi have shouldnt interfere with the Belt.
It's not that there's interference. It's that there's ability duplication, and the duplication doesn't seem to add anything. It's like the belt is saying, "You have the powers of a 5th level monk," and the character is saying, "Yes, I already knew that." I'm not convinced you are even getting the AC ability twice, and if you are then it does nothing due to the nature of stacking rules.

[Pale Sun]

Feh. Wilding clasps are a thing.

Anyways, I don't think the belt does anything. You get the stuff of a 5th level monk, but you already have that and then some. You're basically getting treated as a 5th level monk twice, and that doesn't do anything, and that's probably true even without the stacking rules. Long story short, you'd actually be better off with real monk levels.

The way I read it, by RAW, is that I get 2+Wisdom AC as I have the class features of a 13th level Monk for being a Secundus. Then the Belt checks if I am a Monk, and since I have Monk class features without actually being a Monk it should apply its bonus on top of it.

EDIT: Sorry I re-did my post while you were replying.

It's not that there's interference. It's that there's ability duplication, and the duplication doesn't seem to add anything. It's like the belt is saying, "You have the powers of a 5th level monk," and the character is saying, "Yes, I already knew that." I'm not convinced you are even getting the AC ability twice, and if you are then it does nothing due to the nature of stacking rules.

Im sure that its either I get the AC ability twice and they stack or I only get the Secundus ability and the belt does nothing.

They could be considered different sources because one says I get the AC of a 5th level Monk (as in like a 5th level Monk) but doesnt explicitly give me the Monk Ex AC Bonus class feature, while the Secundus explicitly has the AC Bonus class feature.

However this is probably heavy rule lawyering.

[eggynack]

Im sure that its either I get the AC ability twice and they stack or I only get the Secundus ability and the belt does nothing.
There's a third option, that you get both but the belt caps out by stacking rules, but it looks a lot like you just don't get the belt one.


They could be considered different sources because one says I get the AC of a 5th level Monk (as in like a 5th level Monk) but doesnt explicitly give me the Monk Ex AC Bonus class feature, while the Secundus explicitly has the AC Bonus class feature.
The text says they function the same way, and I'd expect stacking to be an element of functioning.

[Godskook]

Ah, thank you - yes, I'd say you get Wis to AC from both sources. You have the Wis to AC of a monk, but you're explicitly not a monk, so the belt's "not a monk" feature triggers and you get Wis to AC again.

That's not how it works. Both bonuses come from the same source, Monk's Wis-to-AC bonus. Its arguable that you can stack the belt on top of the racial ability to count as a 18th level monk, but you're not getting Wis to AC twice.

[Pale Sun]

There's a third option, that you get both but the belt caps out by stacking rules, but it looks a lot like you just don't get the belt one.


The text says they function the same way, and I'd expect stacking to be an element of functioning.

Im sure (and I was sure of this even before making this thread) that by RAI they absolutely dont stack.

However by RAW one could argue in order for them not to stack Monk Belt would have to be worded so that it gave the AC Bonus class feature rather than giving an AC bonus that functions like the class feature. That is why I think that trying to make them stack is heavy rule lawyering but possible by RAW. However it all depends on what functions means.

[eggynack]

Its arguable that you can stack the belt on top of the racial ability to count as a 18th level monk, but you're not getting Wis to AC twice.
Thinking further, that seems plausible. If we're being technical, getting the, "You're a 5th level monk," ability in no way stops the, "You're a better monk," ability. The former usually clarifies the meaning of the latter for a non-monk, but the latter doesn't necessarily vanish on a non-monk. So, from there, you'd just have to argue that, "You're a better monk," means this thing even when you only have the abilities. Kinda makes sense, I think.

[eggynack]

However by RAW one could argue in order for them not to stack Monk Belt would have to be worded so that it gave the AC Bonus class feature rather than giving an AC bonus that functions like the class feature. That is why I think that trying to make them stack is heavy rule lawyering but possible by RAW. However it all depends on what functions means.
Not really. The belt defines the AC bonus as functioning like that of the actual monk. If you had the actual monk AC bonus, then you know it wouldn't stack with the same bonus again, and there's no exception in the sameness of functioning for stacking rules. Again though this argument is assuming you get two instances if the AC bonus in the first place, and it looks like you don't.

[Arael666]

Im sure (and I was sure of this even before making this thread) that by RAI they absolutely dont stack.

However by RAW one could argue in order for them not to stack Monk Belt would have to be worded so that it gave the AC Bonus class feature rather than giving an AC bonus that functions like the class feature. That is why I think that trying to make them stack is heavy rule lawyering but possible by RAW. However it all depends on what functions means.

Yeah you could argue that, but the stacking rules still proibits it.

[Pale Sun]

Not really. The belt defines the AC bonus as functioning like that of the actual monk. If you had the actual monk AC bonus, then you know it wouldn't stack with the same bonus again, and there's no exception in the sameness of functioning for stacking rules. Again though this arguest is assuming you get two instances if the AC bonus in the first place, and it looks like you don't.

So the the correct functioning is that the AC bonus that comes from being a Secundus is treated as one of a Monk of five levels higher (18th), making it 3+Wis rather than 2+Wis (but with no stacking).
Correct?

[eggynack]

So the the correct functioning is that the AC bonus that comes from being a Secundus is treated as one of a Monk of five levels higher (18th), making it 3+Wis rather than 2+Wis (but with no stacking).
Correct?
Either that or the Monk level increase doesn't stack with something that isn't a Monk level. The version with something rather than nothing makes sense though.

[Hiro Quester]

If you were a monk, then with a Monk's belt your AC bonus and Unarmed Strike ability would be that of a monk 5 levels higher. But you are not a monk.


If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk.

Donning the belt does not improve your unarmed strike, because your current unarmed strike is already better than that of a 5th level Monk.

The same should apply to your AC bonus. Yours is already better. You keep that better AC bonus, but your AC bonus does not improve further.

You don't get to add the same bonus twice for one aspect (AC) but not for the other (UAS).

[Godskook]

If you were a monk, then with a Monk's belt your AC bonus and Unarmed Strike ability would be that of a monk 5 levels higher. But you are not a monk.

Ok, question: How do you become a monk? What defines monk-ness? Is it possible that this quality is a "class feature" of taking levels in the monk class? And as such, is part of the stuff Secundi get?(-all- the class features of a 13th level monk)

[eggynack]

If you were a monk, then with a Monk's belt your AC bonus and Unarmed Strike ability would be that of a monk 5 levels higher. But you are not a monk.

The item says you do get the second thing if you're not a monk. It doesn't say anywhere that you don't get the first thing.

[Malimar]

Ok, question: How do you become a monk? What defines monk-ness? Is it possible that this quality is a "class feature" of taking levels in the monk class? And as such, is part of the stuff Secundi get?(-all- the class features of a 13th level monk)

Sadly, "class features" is a defined game term: it refers to all and only the things under "class features" on the class page. In this case, the set of monk class features is

{Weapon and Armor Proficiency, AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Bonus Feat, Evasion, Fast Movement, Still Mind, Ki Strike, Slow Fall, Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Improved Evasion, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body, Perfect Self}

"Is a monk" is not a class feature of the monk class.

[Pale Sun]

Ok, question: How do you become a monk? What defines monk-ness? Is it possible that this quality is a "class feature" of taking levels in the monk class? And as such, is part of the stuff Secundi get?(-all- the class features of a 13th level monk)

Being a monk is not part of Monk class features but the argument for being considered a 18th level Monk rather than a 13th level Monk is that you get the class features as a 13th level Monk but then (when calculating boni from the class features) you're treated as a Monk of five levels higher.


Yeah you could argue that, but the stacking rules still proibits it.

What I meant is that the AC Bonus class feature and the Monk Belt AC Bonus could be considered different abilities as the latter says that it is an AC bonus functioning (functioning referring to how it is calculated and when it is applied) like the Monk class feature but not that I directly get the class feature, therefore considering them coming from different sources, however it seems like Im wrong.

[Arael666]

What I meant is that the AC Bonus class feature and the Monk Belt AC Bonus could be considered different abilities as the latter says that it is an AC bonus functioning (functioning referring to how it is calculated and when it is applied) like the Monk class feature but not that I directly get the class feature, therefore considering them coming from different sources, however it seems like Im wrong.

I think I wasn't clear before, but I do believe they are different things and even so they do not stack, as per stacking rules. It doesn't matter if it's a class feature, a racial ability or even a spell effect, it's still the same bonus and they do not stack because the is no clause saying they do, as is the case with trapsense.

I really do not understand the confusion here, if we were talking about trapsense (and for arguments sake lets pretend it doesn't have "it stacks with any other sources" rule) there would be no doubt. If I had a barbarian 3/ rogue 3 member of a race who granted "an ability that functions like trapsense +1" no one would say "they are from differente sources so they stack, I have +3". Now, just because the AC bonus class feature says "you add your wis to AC" people get confused, maybe it's the lack of a static numerical value I don't know....

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is you have the ability to add your wis to AC, if you gain the same ability again it's not gonna stack, it's doesn't matter where it came from it's the same friggin ability!

[Pale Sun]

I really do not understand the confusion here, if we were talking about trapsense (and for arguments sake lets pretend it doesn't have "it stacks with any other sources" rule) there would be no doubt. If I had a barbarian 3/ rogue 3 member of a race who granted "an ability that functions like trapsense +1" no one would say "they are from differente sources so they stack, I have +3". Now, just because the AC bonus class feature says "you add your wis to AC" people get confused, maybe it's the lack of a static numerical value I don't know....


The way I see it that in the case of Trap Sense they are the same ability granted by different things (race/class/item/whatever), while these are different abilities that are just applied in the same situation and calculated in the same way. What about the Saint template then? Im pretty sure its generally agreed that Monk Belt + Saint gives double Wis to AC, and there is no difference between Untyped Bonus + Untyped bonus and Untyped Bonus + Insight Bonus.



Anyway, what I'm trying to say is you have the ability to add your wis to AC, if you gain the same ability again it's not gonna stack, it's doesn't matter where it came from it's the same friggin ability!

I dont think they are the same ability, because the Belt gives AC like a 5th level Monk, it doesnt say: "The character gains the AC Bonus Monk class feature".


Is there any WotC-statted non-monk character wearing a Monk Belt in any book?
Because for example the Secundus entry says the following


AC: 42 (–1 size, +4 Dex, +20 natural, +9 monk ability)

Now, if the said WotC-statted non-monk character had "+X monk ability" in his AC calculations, then they of course dont stack; if the said WotC-statted non-monk character has "+X monk belt ability" in his AC calculations then they should stack.

[AnachroNinja]

Just throwing my two cents in, I believe I've also seen Monk and the Druid variant that gives up wildshape for some Monk abilities, used to gain double wisdom to AC. Not to mention all the Fist of the forest builds that get multiple instances of a stat to AC. My inclination is to think they are untyped bonuses so they stack since that is what the rules for bonuses say. But that's just me

[Arael666]

The way I see it that in the case of Trap Sense they are the same ability granted by different things (race/class/item/whatever), while these are different abilities that are just applied in the same situation and calculated in the same way. What about the Saint template then? Im pretty sure its generally agreed that Monk Belt + Saint gives double Wis to AC, and there is no difference between Untyped Bonus + Untyped bonus and Untyped Bonus + Insight Bonus.



I dont think they are the same ability, because the Belt gives AC like a 5th level Monk, it doesnt say: "The character gains the AC Bonus Monk class feature".


Is there any WotC-statted non-monk character wearing a Monk Belt in any book?
Because for example the Secundus entry says the following



Now, if the said WotC-statted non-monk character had "+X monk ability" in his AC calculations, then they of course dont stack; if the said WotC-statted non-monk character has "+X monk belt ability" in his AC calculations then they should stack.

First, the saint template explicitly says you get an insight bonus to AC equal to your wis, wich is com pletely different to "you add your wis to your AC". Second, the class feature does not grant "a bonus equal to your wis", it grants you "the ability to add your wisdom to your AC".

Monk, swordsage, ninja, monk's belt etc.. all grant the same ability "AC bonus" wich, as stated before, bestows the wilder to add his WIS modifier do his AC, some may have different restrictions but it's still the same ability. Thus no matter how many "similar" class features you amass toguether, they still grant the same ability, and since there is no clause that allows it to stack (like trapsense) they do not stack, it doesn't matter where they came from.

The same hold true to divine grace, by the logic used to justify AC bonus stacking, If I were a Palladin 5/ Holy Liberator 4, I should be able to add my cha bonus 2x to my saves, since I get divine grace from two diferent sources, they should stack righ?

[Arael666]

Just throwing my two cents in, I believe I've also seen Monk and the Druid variant that gives up wildshape for some Monk abilities, used to gain double wisdom to AC. Not to mention all the Fist of the forest builds that get multiple instances of a stat to AC. My inclination is to think they are untyped bonuses so they stack since that is what the rules for bonuses say. But that's just me

Geting multiple stats to your AC differs completely from getting the same stat to your AC multiple times.

[Pale Sun]

First, the saint template explicitly says you get an insight bonus to AC equal to your wis, wich is com pletely different to "you add your wis to your AC". Second, the class feature does not grant "a bonus equal to your wis", it grants you "the ability to add your wisdom to your AC".

Monk, swordsage, ninja, monk's belt etc.. all grant the same ability "AC bonus" wich, as stated before, bestows the wilder to add his WIS modifier do his AC, some may have different restrictions but it's still the same ability. Thus no matter how many "similar" class features you amass toguether, they still grant the same ability, and since there is no clause that allows it to stack (like trapsense) they do not stack, it doesn't matter where they came from.

The same hold true to divine grace, by the logic used to justify AC bonus stacking, If I were a Palladin 5/ Holy Liberator 4, I should be able to add my cha bonus 2x to my saves, since I get divine grace from two diferent sources, they should stack righ?

Im fully aware that the same ability from two different sources doesnt stack with itself

My interpretation is that the belt doesnt give the "AC Bonus" ability but just an untiped bonus to AC calculated the same way the "AC Bonus" ability is calculated.

So pretty much this http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18886304&postcount=12



Being a monk is not part of Monk class features but the argument for being considered a 18th level Monk rather than a 13th level Monk is that you get the class features as a 13th level Monk but then (when calculating boni from the class features) you're treated as a Monk of five levels higher.

How do you think this work by RAW?

[Pale Sun]

However scrolling down that thread I found this FAQ


The monk’s belt says it grants the “AC bonus” of a 5thlevel monk. What does that mean?
When the monk’s belt refers to the “AC bonus” of a 5thlevel monk, it is referring to the monk ability called AC bonus. It grants +1 bonus to AC and adds your Wisdom modifier to your Armor Class if you are not wearing armor and are not encumbered.

Which clearly says my interpretation is incorrect.

I guess its /thread.

However Im still curious to know if I get to count as 18th level monk rather than a 13th level monk or not.

[eggynack]

That seems an accurate reading by my estimation, but I wouldn't lend the FAQ much if any credence as a source of RAW.

[Segev]

There are a couple of ways to interpret the RAW, here, as far as I can tell, but honestly, this is a case where I would recommend house-ruling it. It is just plain cleaner if the Monk's Belt simply raises the Secundus's effective monk level as if it were, in fact, a monk.