OOTS #1028 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Mordae]

Materials scientists are not welcome on the Elemental Plane of Earth. :smallcool:

[Borris]

Good comic, as always.

Also, maybe it's just me, but isn't Bandana supposed to have his mouth open in frame #4?

[Ezekiel]

I had forgotten Elementals could talk :smallredface:

[KorvinStarmast]

The gold golem (elemental?) in the last frame was a nice joke.
Interesting choice to write a bridge comic to address the Mechane's crew, and the nature of pirates. (We already blew up a room fighting vampires was a nice quip).

Otherwise, this strip just gets us to the next one.

[Aasimar]

Good comic, as always.

Also, maybe it's just me, but isn't Bandana supposed to have his mouth open in frame #4?

Bandana is a woman.

And she probably does need to open her mouth to talk

[Ornithologist]

It's like we all forgot they were pirates and wanted pay.

[Catticus]

With any luck, we will someday learn what Andi's deal is. (If we already learned and I missed it, I have no doubt one of you will point it out.)

[Albion]

Ah, pirates. Always one step away from mutiny. :smallcool:

[Sniper Jo]

Yeah, Andi's totally going to attempt mutiny at some point.
Shame, really.

[hroþila]

With any luck, we will someday learn what Andi's deal is.
I'm sure Andi would argue that a more relevant question would be "What's Bandana's deal?". She has a point, that's the beauty of it.

[BowStreetRunner]

It's like we all forgot they were pirates and wanted pay.

So I'm thinking we are being reminded of this for a specific reason...Foreshadowing anyone?

[Rift_Wolf]

Yeah, Andi's totally going to attempt mutiny at some point.
Shame, really.

Probably not. She's probably just griping at the younger member of the crew being Acting Captain. It's probably not coming to actual mutiny.

Good comic though; nice to see the crews grumbling being addressed. And the gold Elemental should be used to working with adventurers; he's summoned every time someone asks an Efreet for untold riches (in my games, anyway)

[Keltest]

I'm sure Andi would argue that a more relevant question would be "What's Bandana's deal?". She has a point, that's the beauty of it.

Not a particularly good one, IMO. True, they are pirates, not altruists, but at some point there needs to be some recognition that youre going to be forced to do things you would rather not be doing when you get involved in adventures of this scale. She should be happy she's getting paid at all instead of, say, being held hostage by V and Belkar to get the ship moving where they need it, because that is totally a thing that could happen. As far as random 3rd parties to the conflict go, the pirates are making out pretty good here.

[LordRahl6]

Besides, Pirates will most likely take any job for pay. It's only when they get BETTER PAY that they'll cut your throat.:smallwink:

[DrGonzo]

Yeah, Andi's totally going to attempt mutiny at some point.
Shame, really.

Ah, well.. Keelhauling is always a good.. Oh wait..

[Joronos]

Nice punchline, and the crayon comment was clever :cool:

[theMycon]

Isn't it nice when the game reminds you that average NPC "more than I'd make in a lifetime" is pocket change to a mid-level adventurer?

[littlebum2002]

We're having a lot of exposition/transition comics as of late, aren't we?

Not that I'm complaining; it makes the plot more believable, certainly, just pointing it out.

[Psyren]

So was this the mutiny being foreshadowed? Seemed to be wrapped up a bit too easily. Real pirates would be like "Oh, if they can afford 200gp per person that quickly, they must have even more stashed away."

Granted, real pirates would not last long messing with high-level adventurers either.

I also love that Haley apparently gets a circumstance bonus on any Knowledge (Planes) checks involving money :smalltongue:

[Quebbster]

Very nice reminder that the Mechane is more than just a taxi service for the PCs.

[fishguy]

So... what do we think would be widely accepted currency on the "elemental planes"? Players in my campaign may be assured this question has nothing, whatsoever, to do with a potential direction the main plot is driving towards.

[hroþila]

Not a particularly good one, IMO. True, they are pirates, not altruists, but at some point there needs to be some recognition that youre going to be forced to do things you would rather not be doing when you get involved in adventures of this scale. She should be happy she's getting paid at all instead of, say, being held hostage by V and Belkar to get the ship moving where they need it, because that is totally a thing that could happen. As far as random 3rd parties to the conflict go, the pirates are making out pretty good here.
I didn't mean just in this strip, mind, but in her continuing clash with Bandana in general.

[Leliel]

Ah, well.. Keelhauling is always a good.. Oh wait..

Actually, I suspect bungee-hauling would be even more effective, and less wasteful.

The sap you disciplined is more likely to survive, and the rest of the crew can hear the screaming. Discipline applied.

As for Bandana: Really? You're expecting pirates, people who go out of their way to find money, to not accept mercenary work if given the chance? Particularly the kind that leads to less chance of being arrested?

Look up "privateer" sometime, will ya?

[Ivrytwr]

A little rebellion from time to time, keeps the pocketbook full.
Thanks Giant.

[Keltest]

I didn't mean just in this strip, mind, but in her continuing clash with Bandana in general.

In general, I still think shes picking a fight for the sake of picking a fight. Bandana was the first mate, it wasn't an arbitrary choice to promote her.

[Jay R]

Love the reference to crayons. And yes, the silicon and titanium elementals imply the existence of gold ones.

[dancrilis]

Andi is quickly becoming a favourite of mine - she took the job to do heroic piracy stuff and management changes are screwing with her expectations of what the job is.

[Jay R]

So was this the mutiny being foreshadowed? Seemed to be wrapped up a bit too easily. Real pirates would be like "Oh, if they can afford 200gp per person that quickly, they must have even more stashed away."

Sure, but they are taking adventurers on an adventure. Adventurers always have more loot on the way back, so that's the time to slash throats.

[Sylian]

Interesting. So I suppose some high level characters could escape to some other plane of existence and then move on to the new world? Those characters are likely to be the highest level characters in the new world, at least initially. Level 9 clerics and level 13 wizards, minimum, although they could bring lower level characters with them.

[Ornithologist]

Players in my campaign may be assured this question has nothing, whatsoever, to do with a potential direction the main plot is driving towards.

I'm not even in your campaign, and this statement gives me the willies.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, I can sort of see the pirates' point. "Saving the world" quests are a dime a dozen with adventures, and Roy is clearly unwilling to disclose the actual stakes involved.

So, as far as they're concerned, it's quite unlikely the world is actually going to end and it's just a case of "adventurers being melodramatic."

And while the PCs could theoretically take over the ship, it's probable that the pirates know that Roy at least is lawful good by now. So they probably know they can get away with quite a bit -- especially when the brash and rebellious Andi eggs them on.

[TuringTest]

We're having a lot of exposition/transition comics as of late, aren't we?

Not that I'm complaining; it makes the plot more believable, certainly, just pointing it out.

I feel the same. I love reading several of these not-plot-advancing strips in a row when compiled in book form, but waiting for the main arc to develop one week at a time is glorious agony. :smalleek::smallwink:


Bandana is a woman.

And she probably does need to open her mouth to talk

Her speech starts with "Hmmm...", so maybe that's when the snapshot was taken? :smallbiggrin:

I actually find her expression adequate for her hesitant tone, a better fit than it would be with an open mouth.

[Marp]

Love the crayons throwback and the Lando Calrissian reference, among other things. :D

[Quild]

"This deal is getting worse all the time!"
Nice one :p

I forgot how Andi was toward Bandana.

[Bulldog Psion]

Love the crayons throwback and the Lando Calrissian reference, among other things. :D

Lando Calrissian reference? :smallconfused:

My Star Wars-fu must be getting weak...

[hajo]

So, what's the deal with electrums ?

[ChillerInstinct]

So I'm thinking we are being reminded of this for a specific reason...Foreshadowing anyone?

I'm getting a bad feeling that there's going to be a mutiny in the time between the Order being dropped off to deal with Durkon and when they're going to be ready to leave for the Gate, leaving them to need to find alternate transportation on VERY short notice.

But really Andi... you really think you're going to have a chance for some piracy if the world ends in a couple weeks? Neutral means looking out for number one, and right now looking out for number one means helping the badass team of adventurers save the world. Or, to quote a certain Paladin... neutral, not stupid. :P

[Marp]

Lando Calrissian reference? :smallconfused:

My Star Wars-fu must be getting weak...

"This deal is getting worse all the time", said by Lando after Vader alters the deal on Bespin. :smallwink:

[Peelee]

Lando Calrissian reference? :smallconfused:

My Star Wars-fu must be getting weak...

The Order is altering the deal. Pray that they don't alter it any further.

Also, I'm not getting Andi's objection. Is she saying that being a pirate means she wants to do more work to get her pay? Because that can be easily remedied.

[Quibblicious]

So... what do we think would be widely accepted currency on the "elemental planes"? Players in my campaign may be assured this question has nothing, whatsoever, to do with a potential direction the main plot is driving towards.

Human pieces.

Conversion rate varies outside the given planes.

[Kantaki]

So... what do we think would be widely accepted currency on the "elemental planes"? Players in my campaign may be assured this question has nothing, whatsoever, to do with a potential direction the main plot is driving towards.

Tiny pieces of inhabitants of the Prime Material. Obviously.

That crisis was dealt with surprisingly fast. I guess those pirates know that things must be serious if the PC's are willing to pay without haggling.
Besides, 200 gp per head (unless someone has more of them) just for flying around a bit? Sounds like a good deal to me.

[Quibblicious]

So, what's the deal with electrums ?

It's the currency that dare not speak its name.

Technically it's an amalgam of gold and silver that occurs naturally and was used for coinage before they figured out how to separate the metals.

[snowblizz]

In general, I still think shes picking a fight for the sake of picking a fight. Bandana was the first mate, it wasn't an arbitrary choice to promote her.

I get a "spurned lover promoted over me" vibe from the Adi/Bandana interactions. No idea why.

[HandofShadows]

Ah, sometimes you have to deal with practical problems before you deal with world ending ones. :smallcool:

[Markozeta]

We're having a lot of exposition/transition comics as of late, aren't we?

Not that I'm complaining; it makes the plot more believable, certainly, just pointing it out.

Comes with the territory of the even numbered books. Odd numbered books are for blowing up gates. Even numbered books are stuff in-between the blowing up the gates - and they have a lot to explain because you're not on the main plot line. This isn't unlike when Miko brought back the order for the trial - there was a lot of explaining to do for a pretty big payoff.

Overall I was re-reading the arc from 992-1028 earlier and really like how it fits altogether as a cohesive story - two giant battles, a beautiful artistic cathedral and some new magical items for Roy. Plus some character growth for Roy (My gut is better than his gut to I need to listen to everyone), as well as a scene of Belkar trying to do the real thing.

[Anarion]

Zero negotiation. Roy might as well put a sign up that says "I'm loaded, triple all your prices!" I'm sure Elan has some spare neon lettering. :smallbiggrin:

And of course Haley knows the nature of currency in the entire multiverse.

[8BitNinja]

Gold Elementals don't accept gold?

Will Silver and Copper ones not accept those?

What about Platinum?

Are there electrum elementals, are they a cross breed of gold and silver ones?

Why do I have so many questions?

[CMY187]

The fact that there is grumbling at all on board the ship, and that it is coming from most of the crew, concerns me.

Yes, they don't stand a chance in combat against the Order. But they do have leverage; without them, there would be no way to fly the ship.

I think Roy may have been too quick to agree to the asking price. The crew might see that as a possibility to demand more money for their passage. And if one of the more abrasive Order members such as Belkar takes issue to it, the situation could worsen.

I wonder if this would lead to the crew deciding to abandon/leave the Order later on when they are off the ship. If so, it would provide context for them to find another means of travel and/or transport.
Perhaps this abandonment may come as a result of self-presevation; the crew may argue with Bandanna that high payment is not worth the risk of losing their lives.

[Michaeler]

I got the impression that Andi might seeing how much she can squeeze out of Bandana while she's in charge. Just hazarding a guess that she wouldn't have tried that on with Captain Scoundrel.

Less gearing up for mutiny, more looking for opportunities for personal profit.

[Sir_Leorik]

So did Roy just prevent a possible mutiny against Bandanna, or ensure that Andi will lead one later on? :smallconfused:

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Drascin]

No, Andi, they remember better than you do. What do you think being a pirate is all about? Hint: it's not about swashbuckling. No, it's about making easy money without any strings attached by stealing it from other people.

But hell, if you can get even EASIER money by just asking for it, what self respecting pirate wouldn't take it? Of course, any self-respecting pirate will also betray you the moment better pay comes up, but that's generally understood by employers.

[Kantaki]

Gold Elementals don't accept gold?

Will Silver and Copper ones not accept those?

What about Platinum?

Are there electrum elementals, are they a cross breed of gold and silver ones?

Why do I have so many questions?

Well, would you accept payment in the form of tiny pieces of humans or other humanoids*?
Most people aren't terribly amused about this kind of stuff. Why should elementals be different.

*or for other things for that matter. Your armor and weapon are to them what undead are to human(oid)s. And to water and beer(or other alcohol) elementals we are little better than vampires.

[bengator]

I just wanted to say that I like the xorn in the background of the bar. Nice detail!

[hroþila]

No, Andi, they remember better than you do. What do you think being a pirate is all about? Hint: it's not about swashbuckling. No, it's about making easy money without any strings attached by stealing it from other people.
They're pirates in a comedy stick figure universe and their captain is Julio Scoundrél, who has comic books and action figures and everything. It is ALL about the swashbuckling.

[Magma Armor0]

Isn't it nice when the game reminds you that average NPC "more than I'd make in a lifetime" is pocket change to a mid-level adventurer?

Reading along, thinking, "Oh, they're gonna ask the Order to pay more...and they just went shopping. I hope they have enough...

...Never mind. They're good."

[Hamste]

So... what do we think would be widely accepted currency on the "elemental planes"? Players in my campaign may be assured this question has nothing, whatsoever, to do with a potential direction the main plot is driving towards.

It seems like it would be different depending on the elemental plane. The normal rules of currency apply that it has to be mildly rare, easy to carry and durable. The plane of earth being infinite earth and containing creatures that can walk through the world would likely not value metals. They might still be used but they have to be made arbitrarily rare by some recognized governing body printing them into coins. More likely, processed goods would be the currency in a barter style system. On the plane of water metal would be extremely rare as you can't exactly mine it. I would expect that they would use pearls (weird as it sounds as it would be about the equivalent of us using horns from cows for currency) as they are mildly rare, decently durable and easy to carry as well with rust proof metals making up the upper denominations imported from another plane. The elemental plane of air is screwed...a plane of literally nothing but air probably has a bad economy. Finally, the plane of fire actually has iron on it thanks to its lava streams, they would probably do something to it to make it not melt as readily and use that as currency. Note, things that are usually flammable but are rendered permanently fire proof through magic are probably worth a lot.

[Laurana]

Pretty pointless strip.

I'm guessing the Bandana-Andi conflict will get some kind of pay-off sooner or later, though. At least I kind of hope so, otherwise this strip shouldn't really exist at all.

[JoeyTheNeko]

hilarious.

[Ranzear]

It's been mentioned before, but Bandana talking with a closed mouth in panel 4 kinda throws me. I never realized what a convention this comic had on open mouths for talking.

Roy wearing a hat for cold weather is a nice touch.

[Fitzclowningham]

I love the callback to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html). ("Sweet! I'm gettin' an iPad!")

[chy03001]

So... what do we think would be widely accepted currency on the "elemental planes"? Players in my campaign may be assured this question has nothing, whatsoever, to do with a potential direction the main plot is driving towards.

My guess would be either water or nitrogen. Chances are water is a rare resource in an elemental plane of earth and if the plane of earth also includes a plane of plants then nitrogen would be a key resource for them.

[Onyavar]

We all saw this coming - Andromeda has been a critic of the deal before, especially of Bandana's antics.

But we can already see how the new deal will abruptly end with the team (maybe plus Bandana) being stuck in the dwarven lands.

Roy: "Here you go, for the last two days and us five passengers: 2000 gp."
Bandana: "Cool, thanks."
Andromeda: "Um..."
Felix: "Wasn't the deal 200 gp per person? We're eighteen crew members, isn't that more? Like 7000 gp?"
Andromeda: "No, we're ferrying them since the Western Continent, for eight days in total already, that means roundabout 30000 gp!"
Crew members: "Exactly! Give us your money!"

Depending on whether the order (Haley herself?) has this much money left, this could be the end of their air journey, especially regarding the steep reperature price and the shopping trip in Tinkertown...

Maybe their team will even include Bandana then.

[Edit:] Haley had 32.000 gp in gems + lots of other treasure which we don't know how much it is. The repairs went for 43.000 gp. There were wands and clothes bought. By my guess V and Belkar don't have much money stashed away.

[factotum]

My guess would be either water or nitrogen. Chances are water is a rare resource in an elemental plane of earth and if the plane of earth also includes a plane of plants then nitrogen would be a key resource for them.

Water wouldn't be particularly rare on the Elemental Plane of Water, though, and he did say "elemental planes" without specifying which one. :smallwink:

Coinage was traditionally made from stuff that is rare and pretty and thus has intrinsic value, so you need to find stuff that is rare on the elemental planes and make coinage from it. Wood, maybe?

[Kantaki]

It seems like it would be different depending on the elemental plane. The normal rules of currency apply that it has to be mildly rare, easy to carry and durable. The plane of earth being infinite earth and containing creatures that can walk through the world would likely not value metals. They might still be used but they have to be made arbitrarily rare by some recognized governing body printing them into coins. More likely, processed goods would be the currency in a barter style system. On the plane of water metal would be extremely rare as you can't exactly mine it. I would expect that they would use pearls (weird as it sounds as it would be about the equivalent of us using horns from cows for currency) as they are mildly rare, decently durable and easy to carry as well with rust proof metals making up the upper denominations imported from another plane. The elemental plane of air is screwed...a plane of literally nothing but air probably has a bad economy. Finally, the plane of fire actually has iron on it thanks to its lava streams, they would probably do something to it to make it not melt as readily and use that as currency. Note, things that are usually flammable but are rendered permanently fire proof through magic are probably worth a lot.


My guess would be either water or nitrogen. Chances are water is a rare resource in an elemental plane of earth and if the plane of earth also includes a plane of plants then nitrogen would be a key resource for them.

Way to complicated. The gold elementals reaction to the elfs coins is the perfect set up for the right (because funny) answer.


Water wouldn't be particularly rare on the Elemental Plane of Water, though, and he did say "elemental planes" without specifying which one. :smallwink:

Coinage was traditionally made from stuff that is rare and pretty and thus has intrinsic value, so you need to find stuff that is rare on the elemental planes and make coinage from it. Wood, maybe?

Something that is rare on the elemantal planes...
Something like little bits of humanoids maybe? Bonus points for being payback. Eye for an eye and all that.:smallbiggrin:

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Utterly hilarious! Thanks :smallsmile:

[Wowlock]

I appreciate a neutral that is looking out for his/her pay but when the situation is literally '' Either you help us or you will be destroyed by the gods/ God Eating...SOUL DESTROYING Snarl ''. I am certain gold won't save you out of that one.

[hroþila]

I appreciate a neutral that is looking out for his/her pay but when the situation is literally '' Either you help us or you will be destroyed by the gods/ God Eating...SOUL DESTROYING Snarl ''. I am certain gold won't save you out of that one.
This is addressed by the comic. The crew knows very little about this end-of-the-world scenario, and they have every reason to believe it's not that bad no matter how desperate the Order says it is.

And they're right, too!

[jidasfire]

I like the nod here to the fact that the crew, and NPCs in general, are people too, and fate of the world or no, a lot is being asked of them. A lot of people here seem to feel like they're being unreasonable for asking compensation or complaining, but I think, given what they've probably seen working with Julio, for them the end of the world is just another day at work, and assuming the world keeps on going, they'll still need money. Given how dismissively Roy has treated NPCs in the past, I'm glad he was at least willing to offer them some support under the circumstances.

[Hamste]

Way to complicated. The gold elementals reaction to the elfs coins is the perfect set up for the right (because funny) answer.



It being over complicated doesn't matter. This isn't about this strip but a question of what we think the currency on the elemental planes could be.

[DaggerPen]

A fun one today! I'm definitely worrying about the Bandana and Andi conflict though - if it weren't for Andi constantly calling her "kid" I'd seriously be wondering if this wasn't a "bitter exes" type situation. I'm expecting a mutiny sometime between touchdown in the Dwarven Lands and the race to the last Gate.

[PallentisLunam]

I love the chemistry jokes.

[Sir_Norbert]

I'm guessing the Bandana-Andi conflict will get some kind of pay-off sooner or later, though. At least I kind of hope so, otherwise this strip shouldn't really exist at all.

It has plenty of reasons to exist. It reminds us that the crew members are still there and are also characters in this story. It resolves a certain uncertainty, in case any readers had thought about this issue and were waiting to see how it would play out. It creates a new lingering uncertainty -- just because the pirates have been paid for now doesn't mean they won't demand more later, or betray the Order if a better offer comes along. It establishes more clearly what has only been hinted -- that the crew members don't know what the Order's mission is.

And, of course, it's a good joke.

[IDrankWHAT]

So was this the mutiny being foreshadowed? Seemed to be wrapped up a bit too easily. Real pirates would be like "Oh, if they can afford 200gp per person that quickly, they must have even more stashed away."

Granted, real pirates would not last long messing with high-level adventurers either.

I also love that Haley apparently gets a circumstance bonus on any Knowledge (Planes) checks involving money :smalltongue:

That was going to be my point. If they do try to force a mutiny and a fight ensues, we all know OOTS will win hands down. Unless of course B gets a wild hair and tries to throw everyone that isn't a pirate on the ship, overboard. But why would they risk not only being killed, or worse to have their ship taken over? I understand the wanting to be paid, but in the end, they have to look at the long run of what's best for the ship and crew.

[Giggling Ghast]

OBJECTION! That's clearly a xorn in the background. Xorns eat metal and gems. Allowing it to walk around on an Elemental Plane of whatever is like allowing a serial killer walk around freely!

[Peelee]

That was going to be my point. If they do try to force a mutiny and a fight ensues, we all know OOTS will win hands down. Unless of course B gets a wild hair and tries to throw everyone that isn't a pirate on the ship, overboard. But why would they risk not only being killed, or worse to have their ship taken over? I understand the wanting to be paid, but in the end, they have to look at the long run of what's best for the ship and crew.

The Order could win a brawl, probably. But they can't fly the ship. The Order needs them.

[Ron Miel]

Dear Giant, Typo alert.

Panel 4 & 5, Captain Scoundrel should have an accent on the e. At least it always has before.

[rman]

Human pieces.


Make it a 3 or more way trade -
1 Our world. Metal Coins.
2 World with living plants. Human pieces. (valuable fertilizer)
3 Elemental world. Plant pieces. (still basically alive like leaves and stems that can be put in water and grown)

Then you have the planes that trade in bits of souls, memories and sins/acts.

[Shining Wrath]

Oddly unsatisfying. I guess I'm spoiled.

"Andi is upset" seems like a future plot point, though.

[Ron Miel]

:roy:: Well, it's hard to explain.
:haley:: Maybe if we had some crayons?


They could always get Elan to cast summon plot exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html).

[Neoriceisgood]

I always love the design of those elemental golems. They're great.

[MReav]

Is it just me, or is Bandana's diction different than when it started?

Is it a retcon, a deliberate choice on her part since taking the captain's seat, or have I just been unobservant?

[Hecuba]

OBJECTION! That's clearly a xorn in the background. Xorns eat metal and gems. Allowing it to walk around on an Elemental Plane of whatever is like allowing a serial killer walk around freely!

I know lots of people who eat cows. That does not inherently mean I have to think of them the same ethical terms as someone who barters in human spleens.

[Auburn Bright]

I felt this comic. When it comes to unexpected responsibilities, I'm more of an Andi than a Roy.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, I am glad that mutiny has been avoided...for now. But it seems like Andi is getting more annoyed with how things are progressing.

[Quibblicious]

Make it a 3 or more way trade -
1 Our world. Metal Coins.
2 World with living plants. Human pieces. (valuable fertilizer)
3 Elemental world. Plant pieces. (still basically alive like leaves and stems that can be put in water and grown)

Then you have the planes that trade in bits of souls, memories and sins/acts.

Those are the planes that are in the ventral position.

Q

[rman]

And if OOTS does take out Xykon and company and save the world the 200gp a day pay to the crew will peanuts compared to the loot drop from that epic victory. The crew would likely actually be better off sticking to the pirate code of "our share of the loot" rather than going the more mercantile cost per day route.

[Porthos]

For the folks predicting that the crew will attempt to get more money out of the Order, fighting them if necessary, I think y'all are overlooking the easy in "easy money".

Taking on a group of high level adventurers is anything but easy money. But 200 gp each for passage to Alderaan to wherever they are going? They are probably figuring that they are more desperate than they thought. :smallwink:

[Supermagle]

So... what do we think would be widely accepted currency on the "elemental planes"?

Latinum. Probably not gold-pressed, though!

[ChillerInstinct]

That was going to be my point. If they do try to force a mutiny and a fight ensues, we all know OOTS will win hands down. Unless of course B gets a wild hair and tries to throw everyone that isn't a pirate on the ship, overboard. But why would they risk not only being killed, or worse to have their ship taken over? I understand the wanting to be paid, but in the end, they have to look at the long run of what's best for the ship and crew.

You're assuming that the mutiny will happen while the Order is around. They could easily, say, throw Bandana off the ship (quite possibly literally) while the Order's boots on the ground, then get out of there before they return.

The Order wouldn't even be able to track it down, even if they could afford the time to, thanks to the scrying protection and even if they COULD divine its location they really can't teleport onto it (and heck, the crew probably knows it, considering that was one of the main points of stopping in Tinkertown).

[Reathin]

Isn't it nice when the game reminds you that average NPC "more than I'd make in a lifetime" is pocket change to a mid-level adventurer?

My dnd group has been doing a sky pirate campaign for the last few months and this is actually our primary tactic for recruiting new crew members (particularly from the government ships). Or rather, it's our party Face's primary tactic. My evil captain would prefer to just melt enemy crews and use them as alchemy ingredients/test subjects. Prevents witnesses AND gets us one step closer to horrifying but effective chemical warfare. Or one step farther into it, at least.

Honestly though, kinda wanted to strangle the crew here. Slowly. Yes, let's prevent the heroes from stopping the entire planet from being destroyed because we can't raid a merchant vessel. Waaaaaaah. Morons, the lot of them. Easily bribed morons, at least. Glad this was (seemingly) resolved more or less instantly. The only loose end is Andi's resentment. Why does she care that where they're going, as long as they're getting paid? Is she just bloodthirsty or something?

[Doug Lampert]

Isn't it nice when the game reminds you that average NPC "more than I'd make in a lifetime" is pocket change to a mid-level adventurer?

Average NPC, commoner 1 with 4 ranks in a profession or craft, +1 ability modifier to the relevant ability (more if older), +3 from skill focus (seriously, what else is he doing with that feat, if he's human he's got two of the things).
Average check of 18.5, average weekly income if working for hire, 9.25 GP, average annual income 481 GP.

Income from age 18 to 62 (assuming good health and no time off): 21,645 GP
With reasonable time off it drops to a hair under 20k a lifetime.

That's not pocket change to a mid-level PC. If I threw in masterwork tools and mental ability increases from age it gets better.
If I throw in being a craftsman and working for yourself it gets much better.
If I assume the pay rate for an adventurer taking a week off to work as a whatever is lower than what a respected local willing to stick around for a few years can get the amount grows yet more.

Even if I cut the skill modifier to -6 (3 int, no skill, no feat, improvised tool, crafting untrained), it STILL comes to over 9k in lifetime's income. (And for 5GP he can get real tools and improve that to over 14k; for 50 GP he gets masterwork and is over 18k.)

All that said, 200GP for a few weeks sailing is still a very very good pay rate, and it's perfectly reasonable for the pirates to be happy with it.

[Slayn82]

Something that is rare on the elemantal planes...
Something like little bits of humanoids maybe? Bonus points for being payback. Eye for an eye and all that.:smallbiggrin:

Most things made from flesh will rot away. But there are bones and teeth. How much do you guys think is worth a nail? Why do you think the Tooth Fairy leaves that money for your teeth? She is clearly dabbling in the currence market.

[8BitNinja]

Well, would you accept payment in the form of tiny pieces of humans or other humanoids*?
Most people aren't terribly amused about this kind of stuff. Why should elementals be different.

*or for other things for that matter. Your armor and weapon are to them what undead are to human(oid)s. And to water and beer(or other alcohol) elementals we are little better than vampires.

Would you accept tiny pieces of human as currency?

[ChillerInstinct]

Most things made from flesh will rot away. But there are bones and teeth. How much do you guys think is worth a nail? Why do you think the Tooth Fairy leaves that money for your teeth? She is clearly dabbling in the currence market.

Okay, my new headcanon is that the Tooth Fairy is a serial killer on that elemental plane, disposing of her victims piece by piece by "trading" them with our plane with totally innocuous teeth. Thanks for that. :P

[8BitNinja]

Okay, my new headcanon is that the Tooth Fairy is a serial killer on that elemental plane, disposing of her victims piece by piece by "trading" them with our plane with totally innocuous teeth. Thanks for that. :P

Can I use this for a campaign?

[Markozeta]

Okay, my new headcanon is that the Tooth Fairy is a serial killer on that elemental plane, disposing of her victims piece by piece by "trading" them with our plane with totally innocuous teeth. Thanks for that. :P

Who wouldn't want to use this in a campaign?

[Mojo]

"Why do you want to save the gallaxy anyway?"

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3e/21/43/3e2143bc67f670e80f83e652e9a0ef7a.jpg

[Rift_Wolf]

Just had a moment of realisation; we've probably seen the last of Throwing Axe Kilt Guy. I'd just like to take a moment of silence...

[8BitNinja]

Just had a moment of realisation; we've probably seen the last of Throwing Axe Kilt Guy. I'd just like to take a moment of silence...

We will remember you...

Throwing Axe Kilt Guy

????-1028

[IDrankWHAT]

The Order could win a brawl, probably. But they can't fly the ship. The Order needs them.

KNEW I forgot something! I thought it saved my edit about OOTS needing them as well! Thank you!

[IDrankWHAT]

You're assuming that the mutiny will happen while the Order is around. They could easily, say, throw Bandana off the ship (quite possibly literally) while the Order's boots on the ground, then get out of there before they return.

The Order wouldn't even be able to track it down, even if they could afford the time to, thanks to the scrying protection and even if they COULD divine its location they really can't teleport onto it (and heck, the crew probably knows it, considering that was one of the main points of stopping in Tinkertown).

That's a good point as well. And that's why it's just a theory of course!

[Markozeta]

The store that sells Superconductors. It's probably the kinkiest store on the entire plane.

[Breccia]

There's a "heads and tails" joke in there somewhere, but I won't be the first.

[Kantaki]

Would you accept tiny pieces of human as currency?

Of course not.
That would gross.:smallyuk:
Not to mention pointless. Human(oid)s are far more valuable (not to mention useful) in one piece.

[NerdyKris]

Honestly though, kinda wanted to strangle the crew here. Slowly. Yes, let's prevent the heroes from stopping the entire planet from being destroyed because we can't raid a merchant vessel. Waaaaaaah. Morons, the lot of them. Easily bribed morons, at least. Glad this was (seemingly) resolved more or less instantly. The only loose end is Andi's resentment. Why does she care that where they're going, as long as they're getting paid? Is she just bloodthirsty or something?

They're not being stupid, the Order are being too cagey about telling them what's going on. They're just seeing typical hyperbole about the end of the world, which happens a dozen times a day in this setting. They don't know that it literally involves the actual physical dis assembly of the world because the Order hasn't told them yet. You can't blame the NPCs for something they don't have any knowledge of.

And Andi wants adventure, not to be a bus driver. Would you drive a truck for a living if you could make more money and have more fun doing what you normally do?

[8BitNinja]

Of course not.
That would gross.:smallyuk:
Not to mention pointless. Human(oid)s are far more valuable (not to mention useful) in one piece.

I assumed since you were a necromancer, you would have a use for it

Anyway, I guess that using scabs isn't good for drawing out necromancers into sword range

[aurilee]

I'm glad Rich gave the crew a good backbone in this comic.

I know the backstory is complicated here, but the Order can't really expect the crew to act any different unless they at least give them the general summary of "The Gods are voting on whether or not to destroy the whole world, and we need to go stop the deciding vote from being fixed. And oh by the way meanwhile there's only one last gate holding back a deicidal abomination and we need to go deal with that next.".

At least Andi was able to get the crew some reasonable compensation.

To those arguing over elemental currency...As far as the OoTS world goes, aren't the elemental planes based on modern elements (thus the joke about an Au elemental) and not the classical elements like they have in D&D? As such, on the Au elemental plane, they might accept copper or silver coins. Meanwhile, the Ag plane could accept gold coins. Unless there's only 2 planes: metal and non-metal, in which case they might use something like carbon or silicon as a currency on the metal plane. The plane being shown could have easily been the metal plane since there's an Mg elemental hanging around in the back. Also the xorn looks like he might be causing a conflict, so it's not like he's wandering around peacefully.

[8BitNinja]

Do you think that this may be the start of going back to the good ol' days where the comic was about a bunch of idiots stumbling around in a dungeon?

[Markozeta]

Just had a moment of realisation; we've probably seen the last of Throwing Axe Kilt Guy. I'd just like to take a moment of silence...

http://i.imgur.com/GyyGVAy.png

[goodpeople25]

They could always get Elan to cast summon plot exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html).

:haley: And Treasure!

[SaintRidley]

Are there electrum elementals, are they a cross breed of gold and silver ones?



No, because electrum isn't an element, it's an alloy.

[Quibblicious]

I assumed since you were a necromancer, you would have a use for it

Anyway, I guess that using scabs isn't good for drawing out necromancers into sword range

Are you kidding? The Union guys are so much more expensive and want health care, to boot!

[Quibblicious]

No, because electrum isn't an element, it's an alloy.

They come from a demi-plane that borders the planes of Argentia and Aurumia. Much like the plane of mist borders the planes of water and air.

Q, your Guide to the Planes

[Peelee]

Honestly though, kinda wanted to strangle the crew here. Slowly. Yes, let's prevent the heroes from stopping the entire planet from being destroyed because we can't raid a merchant vessel. Waaaaaaah. Morons, the lot of them. Easily bribed morons, at least. Glad this was (seemingly) resolved more or less instantly. The only loose end is Andi's resentment. Why does she care that where they're going, as long as they're getting paid? Is she just bloodthirsty or something?

Yes. How dare they think that the vague claims of "world is ending if we don't fix it" that the PCs are spouting are not substantially different from the vague claims of "world is ending if we don't fit it" that other PCs tell? The impudence!

[Itrogash]

Heh, that punchline was golden :smalltongue:

I know tensions are getting high with Andy, but I doubt the mutiny happens. She seems to think Julio gets back sooner or later, and I don't think he would take well mutiny happening on his ship.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm going to have to side with the crew a bit here, myself.

The adventurers are adventurers: hyper-rich people who live, breathe, and think in terms of melodrama.

The characters gave almost no information to the crew other than "world-saving quest." And even if they had -- well, they're carrying enough money to let these pirates live out the rest of their lives in luxury. Is it too much to ask the six jazillionaires you're hauling around at considerable risk to your life and limb to give you a big tip?

I mean, sure, it's great to save the world. But eyepatches itch and rum isn't free; and every adventuring party says they're saving the world anyway.

[Liquor Box]

Average NPC, commoner 1 with 4 ranks in a profession or craft, +1 ability modifier to the relevant ability (more if older), +3 from skill focus (seriously, what else is he doing with that feat, if he's human he's got two of the things).
Average check of 18.5, average weekly income if working for hire, 9.25 GP, average annual income 481 GP.

Income from age 18 to 62 (assuming good health and no time off): 21,645 GP
With reasonable time off it drops to a hair under 20k a lifetime.

That's not pocket change to a mid-level PC. If I threw in masterwork tools and mental ability increases from age it gets better.
If I throw in being a craftsman and working for yourself it gets much better.
If I assume the pay rate for an adventurer taking a week off to work as a whatever is lower than what a respected local willing to stick around for a few years can get the amount grows yet more.

Even if I cut the skill modifier to -6 (3 int, no skill, no feat, improvised tool, crafting untrained), it STILL comes to over 9k in lifetime's income. (And for 5GP he can get real tools and improve that to over 14k; for 50 GP he gets masterwork and is over 18k.)

All that said, 200GP for a few weeks sailing is still a very very good pay rate, and it's perfectly reasonable for the pirates to be happy with it.

You are assuming that the crew of the Mechane are level 1 commoners. They may be much higher level (say 5 to 8) and quite possibly not commoners (say experts or pc classes). If so they might expect to receive much more for flying the order around.

[littlebum2002]

You are assuming that the crew of the Mechane are level 1 commoners. They may be much higher level (say 5 to 8) and quite possibly not commoners (say experts or pc classes). If so they might expect to receive much more for flying the order around.

In other words:

"Even though I just found out in this strip that the crew is satisfied with 200GP, let me make a speculation that relies on the assumption that they would not be satisfied with 200GP"

[ti'esar]

Haven't really read the rest of the thread, but this strikes me as very ominous. I don't see a mutiny happening, but Andi does not seem appeased at all, and that's got to be a setup for something later.

Also, the exchange between the two eyepatched crew members was really great.

[Peelee]

....Except that we literally JUST found out they don't expect more than 200GP for flying the order around. You're literally making speculation based on an assumption that was proven wrong in the comic who's thread you're speculating in.

While I agree with you, that seems to be happening more frequently these days.

[Lkctgo]

Considering that everyone was so surprised with Redcloak's summoning of something out of the 4 main elements. How does Haley know about the Gold Elementals? ALSO WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO TRY TO PURCHASE ITEMS WITH GOLD FROM AN OBVIOUSLY GOLD-MADE CREATURE.

[Doug Lampert]

You are assuming that the crew of the Mechane are level 1 commoners. They may be much higher level (say 5 to 8) and quite possibly not commoners (say experts or pc classes). If so they might expect to receive much more for flying the order around.

My main point was that while mid level adventurers are rich, they aren't incomprehensibly rich or even Bill Gates rich.

Wage rates tend to give 1 GP ~= $100 (give or take quite a bit). Goods are harder but also work out to something in that neighborhood (an artisan's or traveler's outfit is only 1 GP, a house 900 GP, a sheep 2 GP, all reasonably consistent with a GP having purchasing power of roughly $100 plus or minus a bunch).

Note that the same conversion being fairly accurate for both expected income and for the price of goods does in fact imply a standard of living fairly close to the modern USA. Who'd have thought it!?

Probably not what they intended, but there it is...

So to someone in D&D land 200,000 GP (level 15 adventurer) is worth roughly as much as $20,000,000 is to us. Wealthy for sure, but you're hardly getting listed as one of the richest men in the world by the D&D land equivalent of Forbes.

Roy just offered a bunch of people 200 GP for a fairly short work stint doing their normal jobs, that's like $20,000 for a few weeks in our world, nice for most people but not Earth-shattering. And the crew already knew Roy had lots of money from the repairs being paid for.

DougL

[ti'esar]

...And now that I have read through the rest of the thread, I'm really curious why people are holding a memorial ceremony for "Throwing Axe Kilt Guy".

[Yendor]

Haven't really read the rest of the thread, but this strikes me as very ominous. I don't see a mutiny happening, but Andi does not seem appeased at all, and that's got to be a setup for something later.

It seems to be mostly Andi stirring up trouble because of some grudge against Bandana.

And it's nice to see the crew being treated as people, rather than a faceless convenience that exists solely for the PCs' benefit.

[davidbofinger]

ALSO WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO TRY TO PURCHASE ITEMS WITH GOLD FROM AN OBVIOUSLY GOLD-MADE CREATURE.

Maybe the elf thought the gold elemental would like lunch.

It's almost as bad as giving a human something made of meat.

[Kantaki]

Maybe the elf thought the gold elemental would like lunch.

It's almost as bad as giving a human something made of meat.

Human meat, yes.:smallamused:

[Kichiku]

Huh. Andi here reminds me of Humble Bellows from The Crimson Pirate - for those who haven't seen that movie, he's the guy who always grumble whenever whatever endeavour the captain is getting the crew involved in isn't 'piratey' enough (yeah, litterally - he complains through out the movie that 'this isn't how pirates do things' and the like). In that movie, he's also - gasp! - the one who starts a mutiny... Will it be the same with Andi here? :smallconfused:

Nice seeing the elementals though! The one to the right was summoned by Redcloak against the white/silver dragon and to the left the elementals from the siege of Azure City! Like seeing old friends again! :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

I think what would be valuable on the elemental planes would be things made by creativity, not craft; poems and paintings and so on. The elementals may be smiths, but are not usually depicted as artists.

[Liquor Box]

In other words:

"Even though I just found out in this strip that the crew is satisfied with 200GP, let me make a speculation that relies on the assumption that they would not be satisfied with 200GP"

Fair critique. I think I overstated my point.

The point I had intended to make is that it is not reasonable to assume that 200gp is a fortune for the pirates (rather than fair payment). I had understood (perhaps misunderstood) some posters to be suggesting that 200gp is a fortune for the crew to get for a few days work.

[Liquor Box]

Considering that everyone was so surprised with Redcloak's summoning of something out of the 4 main elements. How does Haley know about the Gold Elementals? ALSO WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO TRY TO PURCHASE ITEMS WITH GOLD FROM AN OBVIOUSLY GOLD-MADE CREATURE.

One might expect that a gold based creature would value gold highly.

I certainly value animal flesh highly - because it is delicious.

[Liquor Box]

My main point was that while mid level adventurers are rich, they aren't incomprehensibly rich or even Bill Gates rich.

Wage rates tend to give 1 GP ~= $100 (give or take quite a bit). Goods are harder but also work out to something in that neighborhood (an artisan's or traveler's outfit is only 1 GP, a house 900 GP, a sheep 2 GP, all reasonably consistent with a GP having purchasing power of roughly $100 plus or minus a bunch).

Note that the same conversion being fairly accurate for both expected income and for the price of goods does in fact imply a standard of living fairly close to the modern USA. Who'd have thought it!?

Probably not what they intended, but there it is...

So to someone in D&D land 200,000 GP (level 15 adventurer) is worth roughly as much as $20,000,000 is to us. Wealthy for sure, but you're hardly getting listed as one of the richest men in the world by the D&D land equivalent of Forbes.

Roy just offered a bunch of people 200 GP for a fairly short work stint doing their normal jobs, that's like $20,000 for a few weeks in our world, nice for most people but not Earth-shattering. And the crew already knew Roy had lots of money from the repairs being paid for.

DougL

Well put, I understand your point now. I had always thought of 1gp as equating to roughly $50.

Whether $20,000 is earth-shattering for the crew depends on whether they would ordinarily be high earner or low earners. I suspect they would be high earners, which supports your point.

[10d10]

Aw, I was crossing my fingers hoping some more crew members would get names, but alas the eyepatch guys are still at risk of nameless-NPC-deaths...

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Bandana is a woman.

And she probably does need to open her mouth to talk

Well she opened her sentence with "Hmm" meaning that she would make the "Hmm" face.

[Rift_Wolf]

http://i.imgur.com/GyyGVAy.png

Truly, he was the Kiltiest.


...And now that I have read through the rest of the thread, I'm really curious why people are holding a memorial ceremony for "Throwing Axe Kilt Guy".

I just realised while thinking about the Godsmoot and how, once this plots resolved, we're unlikely to go back to see the bodyguards again. TAKG was the one I was most disappointed about not seeing again :(

[Keltest]

Truly, he was the Kiltiest.

Hmm?

Oh, that's not me. Carry on.

[Doug Lampert]

Well put, I understand your point now. I had always thought of 1gp as equating to roughly $50.

Whether $20,000 is earth-shattering for the crew depends on whether they would ordinarily be high earner or low earners. I suspect they would be high earners, which supports your point.

Even for low earners, it's nice, but probably not life changing.

$50/GP or $100/GP are both justifiable. The gold to $ conversion isn't going to be perfect at any value.

Median full time worker's income in the USA is slightly under $40,000 a year, probably for ~48 weeks. Assume the D&D land equivalent is a +8 skill modifier and you get $90 to 1 GP; but the USA worker needs to pay taxes and other overhead, while the D&D land earnings are take home pay, so I really need to reduce the US income to compensate. Conversely, the D&D equivalent of a US worker probably has masterwork tools for a +10 modifier, which again drops the relative value.

Combined effect could easily bring it down to closer to $50 per GP than $100.

Goods prices are all over the place. D&D goods make no sense (seriously, components for a 10' ladder cost 5/3 CP, a single 10' pole costs 2 SP; explain how the components for a 10' ladder don't include two 10' poles).

A chicken costs 2 CP and a goat 1 GP, but a half pound chunk of meat 3 SP. Butchers would be the richest people in D&D land, except that we know crafting chunks of meat takes raw materials worth 1/3 the finished product, so it follows that a sheep produces only 10lb of meat, a goat 5lb, a cow 50lb [edited to correct this number], and a chicken gives a whooping 1.6 ounces of meat!

Either those are really small chickens or the butchers are really bad at their job. One might say they're butchering it. :)

Now consider a butcher with a +10 skill modifier and taking 10 (fairly easily doable with a level 1 commoner), with a difficulty of 15 (remember you can adjust the DC by adding 10 if the task is too easy), this means the butcher is producing 300 SP/week, or 50 lb of meat (not very good for a master butcher), but to do this he needs to kill 500 chickens! That or 1 cow.

The D&D economic system may have a few minor problems....

But it doesn't produce commoners who consider 200 GP an unbelievable fortune, nor does it produce people who use a craft or profession for a living who won't be happy with 200 GP for a couple of weeks.

[TurboGhast]

Considering that everyone was so surprised with Redcloak's summoning of something out of the 4 main elements. How does Haley know about the Gold Elementals? ALSO WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO TRY TO PURCHASE ITEMS WITH GOLD FROM AN OBVIOUSLY GOLD-MADE CREATURE.


The line in #424 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html) implies that V knew that nonclassical elementals exist before seeing the ones Redcloak summoned, and just dislikes them for not being classical. This doesn't preclude the most gold obsessed person in the party knowing not to use gold when purchasing something from one.

(Others already answered the second question.)

[8BitNinja]

Bandana is a woman.

Forget Vaarsuvius, new controversy of the ages, the argument over Bandanna's gender!

Someone start a new 500 threads, we're going to need a lot of threads to discuss this

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Good to see that the NPCs have issues that the main characters have forgotten about.

I'm a sucker for the bit roles.

[Gift Jeraff]

Andi sure is opposed to saving the world.

Remember, "pawns on every team" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html).............

[Rogar Demonblud]

To be fair, that's probably at least a monthly affair with Julio around.

Anyway, Bandana's pretty savvy. The bigger the risk, the faster the Mechane flies, so there's already hazard pay factored in. A job that lasts 10 days pays 20GP a day, while one that has to get done in 4 pays 50. Plus, once the heroes finish up, they'll have bags of loot that the crew can subject to shrinkage that'd be nice for them and a rounding error for near-epic adventurers.

[providential]

I'll be honest, I thought the characterization of the crew was pretty weaksauce when they were first explored a couple years ago (maybe I was just rebelling against the art), but this fleshes it out a lot better, I think. Andi's tension with Bandana seems much more natural. Well done.

[Reboot]

The Order could win a brawl, probably. But they can't fly the ship. The Order needs them.

Two words: Dominate Person.

It's a fifth-level wizard spell. After they've been subdued (and with a night's rest) V can cast it more than enough times in one day to cover the six "strikers" here for a clear fortnight. (In addition, it's only a fourth-level bard spell. Now Elan probably doesn't have it, but do they know that?). Sure, it would be a nuclear option to use, but if it came to it...

[Liquor Box]

Even for low earners, it's nice, but probably not life changing.

$50/GP or $100/GP are both justifiable. The gold to $ conversion isn't going to be perfect at any value.

Median full time worker's income in the USA is slightly under $40,000 a year, probably for ~48 weeks. Assume the D&D land equivalent is a +8 skill modifier and you get $90 to 1 GP; but the USA worker needs to pay taxes and other overhead, while the D&D land earnings are take home pay, so I really need to reduce the US income to compensate. Conversely, the D&D equivalent of a US worker probably has masterwork tools for a +10 modifier, which again drops the relative value.

Combined effect could easily bring it down to closer to $50 per GP than $100.

Goods prices are all over the place. D&D goods make no sense (seriously, components for a 10' ladder cost 5/3 CP, a single 10' pole costs 2 SP; explain how the components for a 10' ladder don't include two 10' poles).

A chicken costs 2 CP and a goat 1 GP, but a half pound chunk of meat 3 SP. Butchers would be the richest people in D&D land, except that we know crafting chunks of meat takes raw materials worth 1/3 the finished product, so it follows that a sheep produces only 10lb of meat, a goat 5lb, a cow 50lb [edited to correct this number], and a chicken gives a whooping 1.6 ounces of meat!

Either those are really small chickens or the butchers are really bad at their job. One might say they're butchering it. :)

Now consider a butcher with a +10 skill modifier and taking 10 (fairly easily doable with a level 1 commoner), with a difficulty of 15 (remember you can adjust the DC by adding 10 if the task is too easy), this means the butcher is producing 300 SP/week, or 50 lb of meat (not very good for a master butcher), but to do this he needs to kill 500 chickens! That or 1 cow.

The D&D economic system may have a few minor problems....

But it doesn't produce commoners who consider 200 GP an unbelievable fortune, nor does it produce people who use a craft or profession for a living who won't be happy with 200 GP for a couple of weeks.

I think the difficulties of comparing the standard of living in a medieval setting to current standards of living goes beyond taxation. A comparatively large proportion of the income of American households goes to consumer goods of the sort that didn't exist in medieval societies. Most homes have smart phones for each of the adults, at least one TV, at least one vehicle (although that may be comparable to owning a horse), at least one computer or tablet, a number of kitchen appliances, a large collection of clothes for every person etc, etc. A person who lives a relatively normal standard of living (by first world standards) now days has a lot more stuff than an average person from medieval days. There simply weren't as many consumer goods available back then.

[NerdyKris]

I don't think The Giant put that much thought into the amount. It sounds more like it's supposed to be a reasonable compensation for their time, not some enormous windfall. Prior to this, they were working for free, remember? This is just supposed to tie up that loose end.

[Porthos]

I don't think The Giant put that much thought into the amount. It sounds more like it's supposed to be a reasonable compensation for their time, not some enormous windfall. Prior to this, they were working for free, remember? This is just supposed to tie up that loose end.

And to back this point up, I say again, the words "easy money" are key.

Sure, Andi wants the life of the pirate, and says as much. But the rest? They get some time off shuttling some folks around at a hefty payday.

Even better, their employers have already shown the willingness to fix damage done to the ship. So, as said: Easy Money.

Best type of money there is. For some at least.

And if they crave the adrenaline of the pirate life, they can go back to swashbuckling when this is all over.

(The more genre savvy of them should realize that there will be plenty of times to buckle their swash just by being around Team OotS - but I suppose they'll find that out soon enuf. :smallwink:)

[Shoelessgdowar]

While Gold, and various other precious metals and materials have been used for currency, we also use pressed wood pulp (paper) and cut ups sticks (wooden coins), as well as bone, valueless cheap rock, and even frozen tea. Currency is just a barter of something that could be used to regulate values, so a blacksmith couldn't say his work is worth 3 chickens a day, the cattle rancher says his horse took half a day to be shooed and one off his cow is worth 5 chickens, and the chicken farmer not wanting to trade any of his chickens, especially since it still would be only 1.5 chickens owed to the blacksmith. Currency is rarely made of the species that is using it, but technically Humans are made of Carbon (same as Diamonds), Iron (same as Iron Coins), Zinc (we use it too make lighter Pennies now a days), as well as other elements (Copper, Calcium, Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Potassium, etc), so no matter what we'd barter from living things, like plants and animals (including other human/oid life) would contain some elements that would be offensive to that elemental... the only solution is just as we accept currency made of something found in our bodies, they might accept something found in theirs...
.

So... what do we think would be widely accepted currency on the "elemental planes"? Players in my campaign may be assured this question has nothing, whatsoever, to do with a potential direction the main plot is driving towards.

Isn't it obvious? Electrons... How else would they become Ionic? Though probably Neutrons and Protons, or even Leptons for small change, are acceptable... perhaps a Lead wants to cleanse itself of the excess and become golden, or perhaps nickel wants to really go up in the world and become silver?


Latinum. Probably not gold-pressed, though!

You do realize Latinum is derived from P-latinum... which a Platinum Elemental would likely take offense at.


Human meat, yes.:smallamused:
Long Pig? Soylent Green? Mrs. Lovett's Meat Pies? Donnor Partysicles?


My dnd group has been doing a sky pirate campaign for the last few months and this is actually our primary tactic for recruiting new crew members (particularly from the government ships). Or rather, it's our party Face's primary tactic. My evil captain would prefer to just melt enemy crews and use them as alchemy ingredients/test subjects. Prevents witnesses AND gets us one step closer to horrifying but effective chemical warfare. Or one step farther into it, at least.

Honestly though, kinda wanted to strangle the crew here. Slowly. Yes, let's prevent the heroes from stopping the entire planet from being destroyed because we can't raid a merchant vessel. Waaaaaaah. Morons, the lot of them. Easily bribed morons, at least. Glad this was (seemingly) resolved more or less instantly. The only loose end is Andi's resentment. Why does she care that where they're going, as long as they're getting paid? Is she just bloodthirsty or something?

I believe they are under the impression that it isn't really saving the world, it is just what adventure party's say... "If we don't kill this village of goblins, their worship will make the Dark One Stronger, and that will means he will destroy the world", when it is really just a village of Goblins, and while they're worship does make the Dark One stronger, he still can't destroy the world... or, "We must get the Lost Orb of Phantasmagoria or Pete will use it to destroy the entire universe with his new Peace Moon." when Pete doesn't even know how to do anything of the sort, and the Lost Orb of Phantasmagoria is just a mcguffin that has no real power, but Adventuring Parties always believe they're the central characters of the story (see: Tarquin and his Party) and everything they do is of the grandest importance. Yes, we the readers know that the OotS are on an actual quest that is actually world saving, but the Mechane's crew are used to Tarquin and his Party's level of ego from adventuring parties... Tarquin still thinks he's the central villain and Xykon is a minor threat, because that is how much importance Adventuring Parties put on their own worth. For all the Mechane's crew knows, the Order is on a quest to stop a Bunny with a cult of Brainwashed Elves called the Sisterhood, which the Order feels will save the world, but really only is a threat to Elven society as more and more of the Female Elves join the Sisterhood while all the males get brushed aside to be the know merely as the Sons, allowing everyone to know who is a male and who is a Female Elf... *bum bum bum*

[Anansiil]

Yay, another comic! Everytime I have a bad day, a new comic comes up! ...I'm xhoosing to believe that I didn't accidentally sell my happiness for comics :P
...I'm sure it's just here to cheer me up...yes...
:'P
:D

[Wildroses]

Good triumphs over evil while neutral foots the bill is an awesome line. I pictured lots of good heroes swanning about after they have triumphed ignoring the mess and problems their victory has made, and any requests for labour or compensation made by people are told off for ingratitude.

Calling the situation the apocalypse of the week is probably a fair call for this world.

[BriarHobbit]

A fun light episode. The complaint by the crew could have been rephrased, "Good triumphs over Evil, while Neutral tries to turn a profit."

[GregTD]

200 GP each? Wow, they're cheap

[factotum]

200 GP each? Wow, they're cheap

Liquor Box worked out a couple of pages ago that the average income for a level 1 commoner with no particular skills would be 481gp a year. 200gp is therefore nearly half a year's salary--not bad going for a week's work!

[Wildroses]

A fun light episode. The complaint by the crew could have been rephrased, "Good triumphs over Evil, while Neutral tries to turn a profit."

I'm pretty sure the TV trope of that well documented fictional practice is called No Hero Discount. In fact this comic could be added to it.

[Quild]

Liquor Box worked out a couple of pages ago that the average income for a level 1 commoner with no particular skills would be 481gp a year. 200gp is therefore nearly half a year's salary--not bad going for a week's work!

It's actually Doug Lampert who did that :p.

But even if that was cheap, and even if they don't care about another weekly apocalypse thing, they might consider as Haley did in Origin of PCs that they can get some wealth from the actual adventure.

Bandana is happy enough with the reparations of the Mechane (probably wouldn't have been useful if they hadn't had HPoH on board in a first place, but maybe they got some amelioration as well). Her new dagger and the XP she got may also make her happy.

[TuringTest]

A fun light episode. The complaint by the crew could have been rephrased, "Good triumphs over Evil, while Neutral tries to turn a profit."

That's a good line for the strip summaries (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325095-OOTS-Strip-Summaries) thread, you may propose it there.

[xroads]

200gp per pirate just for faring around some adventurers? Yeah, I think Andi's arguments are going to fall on deaf ears with the rest of the crew. Far more lucrative than piracy and arguably less dangerous.

Once Bandana gets her own ship, maybe she can turn this into a business.

[zinycor]

In general, I still think shes picking a fight for the sake of picking a fight. Bandana was the first mate, it wasn't an arbitrary choice to promote her.

If I were a pirate I would pick many fights for the sake of picking fights!

[Markozeta]

http://i.imgur.com/GyyGVAy.png
Truly, he was the Kiltiest.

I just realized while thinking about the Godsmoot and how, once this plots resolved, we're unlikely to go back to see the bodyguards again. TAKG was the one I was most disappointed about not seeing again :(

Throwing Axe Kilt Guy is awesome. It took a while to figure out who he was, but after looking at his short little life here it became clear he deserved a moment of silence for his awesome kilt wearing and axe throwing skills.

[8BitNinja]

Good triumphs over evil while neutral foots the bill is an awesome line. I pictured lots of good heroes swanning about after they have triumphed ignoring the mess and problems their victory has made, and any requests for labour or compensation made by people are told off for ingratitude.

There are heroes who would help out with fixing the collateral damage

[Shining Wrath]

I wonder how many vampires axe throwing guy kilt?

The question is made more difficult by the vampire's lack of life.

Also, did we ever figure out who TAKG was the bodyguard for?

[ClaimingLight]

So... what do we think would be widely accepted currency on the "elemental planes"? Players in my campaign may be assured this question has nothing, whatsoever, to do with a potential direction the main plot is driving towards.

Residuum would be a good choice. It's a powder that results from the intentional disenchantment of a magic item and can be used as a substitute for most material components.

It'd be the perfect neutral currency in a money market- a bit like the bitcoin. The only real problem would be the difficulty of exchanging particular amounts of powder for things. I'm sure you'd come up with an idea for that, if you were interested.

[Kantaki]

If I were a pirate I would pick many fights for the sake of picking fights!

Nah, why risk life and and limb when I don't get paid for it? Especially when I do get paid for something safe.
I'm with Gannji and Enor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html) on this. High risk even higher reward and all that. And even then there is a limit.

[8BitNinja]

I wonder how many vampires axe throwing guy kilt?

The question is made more difficult by the vampire's lack of life.

Since D&D has rules for when a guy who is already dead can die again, I would rule -10 HP as killing the vampire

[LunarDrop]

I love how -because they're pirates- they would rather get a new eye patch with their newfound wealth rather than just getting their eye fixed.

[Doug Lampert]

Since D&D has rules for when a guy who is already dead can die again, I would rule -10 HP as killing the vampire


Undead Type
[SNIP]
Traits
An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

[SNIP]
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.

Characters added to add character.

Edited to add:
I love how -because they're pirates- they would rather get a new eye patch with their newfound wealth rather than just getting their eye fixed.
Regenerate is level 7. A level 7 spell purchased commercially costs 910 GP. Good luck getting that with your 200 GP.

To continue to beat a dead horse, 200 GP is nice pay for a couple of weeks work, but it isn't life changing.

[LunarDrop]

Regenerate is level 7. A level 7 spell purchased commercially costs 910 GP. Good luck getting that with your 200 GP.

To continue to beat a dead horse, 200 GP is nice pay for a couple of weeks work, but it isn't life changing.

Oh, I didn't know that. Drat, that would have been pretty funny.

[Doug Lampert]

Oh, I didn't know that. Drat, that would have been pretty funny.

Adventurers at the order's level get the party cleric to cast it for free. In the unlikely event that they lose a body part, there are no rules anywhere in the game that would result in such a wound. (You can decapitate something with a vorpal blade, and you can cut heads off a hydra, but those are both special rules, I know of nothing that will cost you an eye.)

I had to look up the level, because I've never seen or heard of Regenerate actually being cast in a 3.x game.

[Hamste]

There is actually a good chance no one is missing an eye. Eye patches help keep one of your eyes used to the dark allowing you to switch over when going from top deck to below deck.

Now that missing leg they probably want to regenerate.

[pendell]

Characters added to add character.

Edited to add:
Regenerate is level 7. A level 7 spell purchased commercially costs 910 GP. Good luck getting that with your 200 GP.

To continue to beat a dead horse, 200 GP is nice pay for a couple of weeks work, but it isn't life changing.

Don't forget they're risking their lives on this venture; travelling with these adventurers has already seen them 1) Boarded by a high-level adventuring party from the Empire of Blood with the express intent of killing everyone on the ship. 2) Directly assaulted by Thor via lightning with the intent of either crippling or destroying the ship outright. 3) The destruction of a cabin by a vampire boarder.

By the way, the repairs to the airship? Were only necessary because this ship is transporting everyone's favorite bad luck magnets in the first place.

It appears to me that this adventure is placing the crew at a high degree of risk; they should receive hazard pay at least.

Y'know, when Prince Caspian was hiring for the Dawn Treader he offered an official title and either gold or land enough to last a life time. "The worker is worthy of his hire."

So all in all I'd say the OOTS is getting a bargain at 200 gp per crewmember. Who knows? Maybe they can find some evil monsters who need looting on the way.

And all in all, a good strip.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lheticus]

Good triumphs over evil while neutral foots the bill is an awesome line. I pictured lots of good heroes swanning about after they have triumphed ignoring the mess and problems their victory has made, and any requests for labour or compensation made by people are told off for ingratitude.

Calling the situation the apocalypse of the week is probably a fair call for this world.

I know, right? I totally need to figure out how to work that line into a Facebook post or something.

[aurilee]

There is actually a good chance no one is missing an eye. Eye patches help keep one of your eyes used to the dark allowing you to switch over when going from top deck to below deck.

Now that missing leg they probably want to regenerate.

Hands up everyone who only knows about this from MythBusters.

*raises hand*

If I recall that myth was deemed "Plausible" but there was no actual record of this behaviour ever happening, and it was possible more of an urban legend than fact. IRL people will wear an eye patch to protect a healing eye, or sometimes to strengthen a weak eye.

But this is a comic, not real life, so whatever.

[8BitNinja]

Hands up everyone who only knows about this from MythBusters.

*raises hand*

*raises hand*

The second pirate special I believe

[zinycor]

Nah, why risk life and and limb when I don't get paid for it? Especially when I do get paid for something safe.
I'm with Gannji and Enor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html) on this. High risk even higher reward and all that. And even then there is a limit.

Am not a very effective pirate xD

[8BitNinja]

Am not a very effective pirate xD

Not many people are, you have to be someone who can successfully fight off the king's men while drunk and underequipped, a feat not many can do

[zinycor]

Not many people are, you have to be someone who can successfully fight off the king's men while drunk and underequipped, a feat not many can do

i can do that no problem, the problem is that I would fight the King's men while drunk and underequipped, for no reason whatsoever.

Not a very effective pirate, but always in character xD

[Rift_Wolf]

Also, did we ever figure out who TAKG was the bodyguard for?

No, but let the speculation commence!
My guess would've been Hpo Vafthrudnir, based on similar beardery, but he'd probably be miffed his bodyguard took potshots at the Vampires, pulling them into internal church disputes. Hpo Freya, however, could be a better contender.

[Doug Lampert]

I think the difficulties of comparing the standard of living in a medieval setting to current standards of living goes beyond taxation. A comparatively large proportion of the income of American households goes to consumer goods of the sort that didn't exist in medieval societies. Most homes have smart phones for each of the adults, at least one TV, at least one vehicle (although that may be comparable to owning a horse), at least one computer or tablet, a number of kitchen appliances, a large collection of clothes for every person etc, etc. A person who lives a relatively normal standard of living (by first world standards) now days has a lot more stuff than an average person from medieval days. There simply weren't as many consumer goods available back then.

But in D&D land you can get raised from the dead. You can get healed of horrible wounds with a word. Disease is a thing only the poor need to worry about, at all.

It's perfectly possible that the standard of living is HIGHER in D&D land than in the modern USA. Look at the demographics, 1% of SETTLEMENTS are 25,000+ adults (that means a fairly high percentage of the population lives in such settlements, the percentage of settlements at the largest of several size categories is necessarily smaller than the percentage of the population living in those settlements, the population is in fact very, very urbanized, almost certainly more so than the USA when I tried to compare). And those places have high level casters available.

10% of even the smallest settlements have a high level druid or ranger. Magic is in fact widely available if you have the coin.

If D&D standards of living calculate as close to USA based on costs and wages, I would not assume that the D&D land population is living in medieval squalor, we might well end up envying THEM if we had a direct comparison!

[IntelectPaladin]

Good triumphs over evil while neutral foots the bill is an awesome line. I pictured lots of good heroes swanning about after they have triumphed ignoring the mess and problems their victory has made, and any requests for labour or compensation made by people are told off for ingratitude.

Calling the situation the apocalypse of the week is probably a fair call for this world.
I just cannot agree with the casual cynicality of this statement. It's making me cringe,
And I'm rather sure those new dark spots on my arm are cancer.

Let me make one statement. I, As a paladin, Have helped rebuild a good 20 villages, Made sure one criminal's family weren't seen as accomplices.

I'm sorry that you enjoy seeing something good as something wrong.

[Markozeta]

No, but let the speculation commence!
Done! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481853-Body-Guard-to-High-Priest-Correlation)


My guess would've been Hpo Vafthrudnir, based on similar beardery, but he'd probably be miffed his bodyguard took potshots at the Vampires, pulling them into internal church disputes. Hpo Freya, however, could be a better contender.

I went with Mani because of similar hair color. Vaft I gave to the armored girl because she's secretive in her armor.

[King of Nowhere]

one part of me thinks this is fooreshadowing for a future crew mutiny, another part of me thinks it could be a red herring because it's too obvious.

[Kantaki]

I just cannot agree with the casual cynicality of this statement. It's making me cringe,
And I'm rather sure those new dark spots on my arm are cancer.

Let me make one statement. I, As a paladin, Have helped rebuild a good 20 villages, Made sure one criminal's family weren't seen as accomplices.

I'm sorry that you enjoy seeing something good as something wrong.

And how many of those villages had to be rebuild because of one of your misguided crusades paladin?
Even if you are the rare exemption, the fact remains that, in almost all cases, whenever good and evil clash it's the neutral folks that pay the price.

[Pyrous]

And how many of those villages had to be rebuild because of one of your misguided crusades paladin?
Even if you are the rare exemption, the fact remains that, in almost all cases, whenever good and evil clash it's the neutral folks that pay the price.

If there is the Paladin and no Evil, no one pays the price (except, possibly, the Pally).

If there is Evil and no Paladin, Neutral pays the price.

And Good usually pays the price. By choice.

Good and Evil clash because Neutral (and Good) is (are) already paying the price.

Edit: Paladin here means a good-aligned person or group with the courage to topple the Evil.

[8BitNinja]

And how many of those villages had to be rebuild because of one of your misguided crusades paladin?
Even if you are the rare exemption, the fact remains that, in almost all cases, whenever good and evil clash it's the neutral folks that pay the price.

Misguided? You would rather let the villages fall into the hands of evil?

[Kantaki]

Misguided? You would rather let the villages fall into the hands of evil?

Misguided, yes. I'm not saying that evil overlords shouldn't be stopped, but many of them wouldn't rise to power if they didn't have their armies of minions that only exist because „good” heroes far to often punish their attempts to simply survive instead of trying to change the circumstances that force them to desperate measures.
Now I'm not saying that everyone can be redeemed, but I'm pretty sure we would have far less trouble with orcs, goblins and kobolds - and the overlords who make them fight their goals - if they could live off the land they live on.
Not to mention necromancy. Yes, intelligent undead are nasty, yes far to many necromancers go the evil overlord route, but would you condemn a community for making their dead* work the fields and/or fight of attackers it the alternative would be certain death.

*Assuming this didn't happen against the free will of the individual the body belonged to obviously. Ignoring that is... icky even for someone non-good.

Anyway, regarding the comic (that's what this thread is about after all:smallwink:), while Andi might keep grumbling and make some trouble I seriously doubt the crew will start a mutiny - not if the Order pays them pretty well for easy, relative riskfree work.

[Pyrous]

Misguided, yes. I'm not saying that evil overlords shouldn't be stopped, but many of them wouldn't rise to power if they didn't have their armies of minions that only exist because „good” heroes far to often punish their attempts to simply survive instead of trying to change the circumstances that force them to desperate measures.
Now I'm not saying that everyone can be redeemed, but I'm pretty sure we would have far less trouble with orcs, goblins and kobolds - and the overlords who make them fight their goals - if they could live off the land they live on.

I couldn't agree more. My last post was in response to the "exception" part, not the "misguided" part.


Not to mention necromancy. Yes, intelligent undead are nasty, yes far to many necromancers go the evil overlord route, but would you condemn a community for making their dead* work the fields and/or fight of attackers it the alternative would be certain death.

*Assuming this didn't happen against the free will of the individual the body belonged to obviously. Ignoring that is... icky even for someone non-good.

That is a problem with the spell and monster statblock mechanics not matching the alignment fluff. Instead, we are just told that it is [Evil] (spell) or always XEvil (statblock).

As such, it is highly dependent on DM ruling. You can't put the fault on the PC for this.


Anyway, regarding the comic (that's what this thread is about after all:smallwink:), while Andi might keep grumbling and make some trouble I seriously doubt the crew will start a mutiny - not if the Order pays them pretty well for easy, relative riskfree work.

I also agree with this. Although riskfree is debatable.

[8BitNinja]

Misguided, yes. I'm not saying that evil overlords shouldn't be stopped, but many of them wouldn't rise to power if they didn't have their armies of minions that only exist because „good” heroes far to often punish their attempts to simply survive instead of trying to change the circumstances that force them to desperate measures.
Now I'm not saying that everyone can be redeemed, but I'm pretty sure we would have far less trouble with orcs, goblins and kobolds - and the overlords who make them fight their goals - if they could live off the land they live on.
Not to mention necromancy. Yes, intelligent undead are nasty, yes far to many necromancers go the evil overlord route, but would you condemn a community for making their dead* work the fields and/or fight of attackers it the alternative would be certain death.

*Assuming this didn't happen against the free will of the individual the body belonged to obviously. Ignoring that is... icky even for someone non-good.

Anyway, regarding the comic (that's what this thread is about after all:smallwink:), while Andi might keep grumbling and make some trouble I seriously doubt the crew will start a mutiny - not if the Order pays them pretty well for easy, relative riskfree work.

About the necromancy

You do know you are tapping into black magic and desecrating the bodies of the dead, right?

[Mandor]

Bandana is a woman.
And she probably does need to open her mouth to talk

To be fair I have known a few women perfectly capable of speaking through clenched teeth.
It was never a good sign though. :smalleek:

[Pyrous]

About the necromancy

You do know you are tapping into black magic and desecrating the bodies of the dead, right?

From a fellow Pally:

Good: altruism, respect for life, and concern for the dignity of sentient beings.

Do you know what is not in this list? Concern about the dignity of corpses.

Killing someone to raise an undead is Evil because you are killing someone for profit.

Using a corpse, which is not on the Good's list of concern, to raise an undead that will provide benefits to the society... is at worse Neutral if the necro is charging for their service.

This is a major flaw in the rules. Good vs Evil is clearly defined, and is one of the best definitions of Good that I know. The Undead type has no relation whatsoever with GxE, except for the statblock.

The Giant handled the sentient undead case. A Evil spirit controll your body. But it doesn't address mindless undeads. Mindless undeads are not capable of moral action, they shouldn't have a default alignment that's not TN.

[Reboot]

The Giant handled the sentient undead case. A Evil spirit controll your body.

He also said that's vampire-specific and doesn't apply to, say, lichs.

[Necris Omega]

Mindless undeads are not capable of moral action, they shouldn't have a default alignment that's not TN.

They may not have any actual choice as they're essentially constructs, however, the magics powering them DO have explicit moral implications and effects in and of themselves. That's why they're not constructs.

They exist to destroy. They exist to cause suffering. They exist to tear down and corrupt all that is innocent and beautiful. Remove any semblance of sentience, and all that is left is an active hateful instinct against the living. They may not be capable of choice, but evil is still what they are by the base nature of their existence.



The undead are evil like evil artifacts are evil - they may not have agency, but their existence is an active and more often then not deliberate blight on all that is good.

[Pyrous]

He also said that's vampire-specific and doesn't apply to, say, lichs.

There is a class of undead that somebody can become even if the body owner does not want. Vampires and wights are on this class.

Lichs on the other hand, are on a class where the owner of the body willingly becomes an undead and remains in control. On OotS history, Xykon was already evil when he chose to be a lich.

That said, if the prerequisites to becoming a sentient undead doesn't include evil actions, and your sustenance as undead doesn't require that you hurt sentient living beings, I don't see how this is Evil (remember that undeads doesn't have the [Evil] subtype by default).

Twelve Gods! Soon and the Saphire Guard became undead-like cretures. You can say that they were a different type, but the magic binding them must be necromantic. And that's my point: necromancy is not Evil, and if you say that spells that raise undeads is [Evil] because of the negative energy, there must be a spell, of the same level, that raises the positive energy undead-like creatures, of the same power level.

And another thing: any spell that binds your soul without your permission (will saving throw doesn't count, you must be willing) should have the [Evil] descriptor. That Animate Dead, which can't possibly bind your soul (by Magic Jar description text), have the [Evil] descriptor, and Magic Friggin' Jar doesn't, just confirms to me that the designers didn't think of ANYTHING relating to alignments, except for the PHB section describing alignments.

So, if you want to debate alignment (with me), you must only consider the actual description in the PHB and ignore every other reference to them in the whole ruleset, unless you can justify it using said description.

[Killer Angel]

At least, no one is using it as catapult's ammo... :smallbiggrin:

[davidbofinger]

Hands up everyone who only knows about this from MythBusters.

I first saw it in the context of total solar eclipse viewing. Don't remember when but not this century.

[Knaight]

Human meat, yes.:smallamused:

Seeing as the gold coin isn't actually made out of gold elemental, it's more like meat with a very similar chemical makeup. So, most meat, going by amino acid content, with other mammals being closest.

[Quibblicious]

I, As a paladin, Have helped rebuild a good 20 villages...

I, as a bard, have helped rebuild the population of twenty villages.

I wonder if they were the same 20...

[Rift_Wolf]

Imagining convo between Elemental and Xorn.
Xorn: Hey Elemental, got my usual order?
Elemental: Yeah *hands over bucket of jewels* but... I can't believe you're touching them...
*Xorn eats handful of jewels*
Xorn: sorry, you say something?
Elemental: Oh God... you EAT them!? *hurrrrp* quick, gimme the bucket...
*barfs up more jewels*
Xorn: would you prefer it if I DEVOURED YOUR YOUNG?
Elemental: *hurrrrp* oh god... I'm gonna be tasting crystals for weeks...*more barfs*
Xorn: Hey hey! Don't give me that half-finished sand! I prefer my jewels big, steaming, fully formed and crunchy...
Elemental: I hate you.

[Quibblicious]

Imagining convo between Elemental and Xorn.
...
Xorn: Hey hey! Don't give me that half-finished sand! I prefer my jewels big, steaming, fully formed and crunchy...
Elemental: I hate you.

Meh, my dog did the same thing with my kids' diapers.

There was a reason we called him the Turd Thief.

[pjackson]

Liquor Box worked out a couple of pages ago that the average income for a level 1 commoner with no particular skills would be 481gp a year. 200gp is therefore nearly half a year's salary--not bad going for a week's work!

I don't think that is quite what was calculated. The PHB gives the pay for an untrained hireling as 1sp per day, i.e. about 35gp a year. A trained hireling gets three times that - about 100gp a year. The calculation was for a self employed craftsman or profesional.

The job the pirates are being hired for is one that could be done by skilled hirelings, but with a element of danger. 200gp is good pay but not a fortune.

[Kantaki]

Seeing as the gold coin isn't actually made out of gold elemental, it's more like meat with a very similar chemical makeup. So, most meat, going by amino acid content, with other mammals being closest.

Considering the elementals reaction my comparison seems valid. Well, maybe not human meat, but at least that of something related. Like ape meat for example.


About the necromancy

You do know you are tapping into black magic and desecrating the bodies of the dead, right?

So, what you are saying is that the good thing to do would be to leave the villagers to starve/be killed by raiders?:smallconfused:
I'm not sure I can agree with that. Sure, other methods might be less... questionable, but not everyone has access to those.

@Riftwolf::smallyuk:Thanks for that one! I was eating when I read this.:smallyuk:
:smallbiggrin:It's still funny.:smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

And how many of those villages had to be rebuild because of one of your misguided crusades paladin?
Even if you are the rare exemption, the fact remains that, in almost all cases, whenever good and evil clash it's the neutral folks that pay the price.
Evil will thrive when neutral men do nothing. Paying the bill is the consequence of protesting neutrality. (And no, I will not delve into the plethora of Real World Examples where this applies. Not bringing politics into this per the prohibited items list at Rules).


To be fair I have known a few women perfectly capable of speaking through clenched teeth. It was never a good sign though. Well said.

[Rift_Wolf]

@Riftwolf::smallyuk:Thanks for that one! I was eating when I read this.:smallyuk:
:smallbiggrin:It's still funny.:smallbiggrin:

You're welcome :)
To make it worse; you won't be able to look at the Wikipedia picture of titanium the same way again... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Titan-crystal_bar.JPG

[pjackson]

From a fellow Pally:

Good: altruism, respect for life, and concern for the dignity of sentient beings.
[snip]
This is a major flaw in the rules. Good vs Evil is clearly defined, and is one of the best definitions of Good that I know. The Undead type has no relation whatsoever with GxE, except for the statblock.

The Giant handled the sentient undead case. A Evil spirit controll your body. But it doesn't address mindless undeads. Mindless undeads are not capable of moral action, they shouldn't have a default alignment that's not TN.

Living creatures from bacteria up go through a process - birth, reproduction (for some), death, afterlife (for some). Undead avoid the third step (until someone does something). They aren't making way for a new generation. That is disrespect for life.

Whether or not undead are capable of moral choices the act of creating them is an Evil one, and not just because the spells are, and that Evil taints the creature.

[KorvinStarmast]

Living creatures from bacteria up go through a process - birth, reproduction (for some), death, afterlife (for some). Undead avoid the third step (until someone does something). They aren't making way for a new generation. That is disrespect for life.

Whether or not undead are capable of moral choices the act of creating them is an Evil one, and not just because the spells are, and that Evil taints the creature.
Nicely put. The apologists for zombies and necromancers will be along shortly.

(That aside, one of my favorite character classes ever to play was a Necromancer in Diablo II, but that's a video game ... )

[pendell]

Misguided? You would rather let the villages fall into the hands of evil?

Two generations ago, "We had to destroy the village in order to save it" was a bad joke.

From the villager's perspective, which is better: To have an evil overlord who once a year collects a degree of your harvest and conscripts your young men, or to be "rescued" by paladins, with the result that the village is burned down, ALL the young men are killed, and ALL the crops are burned?

Anyone who's watched game of thrones should know that there are worse things in the world than being ruled by King Joffrey -- a years-long war which ruins the land, kills the people, and leaves the land vulnerable to invasion by the white walkers is infinitely worse than rule by a lawful evil tyrant , whose worse excesses are generally confined to King's Landing.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Quibblicious]

Anyone who's watched game of thrones should know that there are worse things in the world than being ruled by King Joffrey -- a years-long war which ruins the land, kills the people, and leaves the land vulnerable to invasion by the white walkers is infinitely worse than rule by a lawful evil tyrant , whose worse excesses are generally confined to King's Landing.

That reminds me of the blessing for the Tsar --

May the lord bless and keep the Tsar... far away from us.

[Hamste]

Living creatures from bacteria up go through a process - birth, reproduction (for some), death, afterlife (for some). Undead avoid the third step (until someone does something). They aren't making way for a new generation. That is disrespect for life.

Whether or not undead are capable of moral choices the act of creating them is an Evil one, and not just because the spells are, and that Evil taints the creature.

That seems to assume that life is in some way inherentlygood or requires respect. Besides, the only reason undead aren't called "living" is because we don't call them living. It would be easy to include a definition of life where undead are included but are a subsection similar to mammals.We just choose not to because there is no point. Instead we move them to a new section we call undead. What is more that definition you gave where life follows those 4 steps doesn't even account for the ways that stop death not being a thing in d&d. For example, Elan never dies of old age and thus avoid the third step until someone does something about them but they are not inherently evil. Most undead are actually more likely to die before an Elan ever will because Elan have natural healing while most undead do not. Eventually, a ghoul will die if only because their bodies are so destroyed by day to day tasks that they cease to be.

If it is that they are unnatural that is the problem I would have to point out just because something is unnatural doesn't make it inherently evil. A few undead might even be "natural" in d&d world in a similar way magic beasts are "natural" in that how ever they originally came about they can still reproduce under their own power assuming certain conditions are met.

[Bulldog Psion]

Two generations ago, "We had to destroy the village in order to save it" was a bad joke.

From the villager's perspective, which is better: To have an evil overlord who once a year collects a degree of your harvest and conscripts your young men, or to be "rescued" by paladins, with the result that the village is burned down, ALL the young men are killed, and ALL the crops are burned?

Anyone who's watched game of thrones should know that there are worse things in the world than being ruled by King Joffrey -- a years-long war which ruins the land, kills the people, and leaves the land vulnerable to invasion by the white walkers is infinitely worse than rule by a lawful evil tyrant , whose worse excesses are generally confined to King's Landing.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

So your philosophy is, "surrender to tyranny and evil, keep your head down, and keep silent"?

Bring on Tarquin, I guess.

[8BitNinja]

You don't have to destroy the village to save it, what tactical advantage would you receive from burning crops and destroying houses. Sure it's less cover for the enemy, but also less cover for you.

Besides, if you say to just submit to the guy, you are saying that you would be willing to submit to tyrannical rule and have justice perverted

[pendell]

So your philosophy is, "surrender to tyranny and evil, keep your head down, and keep silent"?

Bring on Tarquin, I guess.

Sometimes it is the least bad option. Fighting Tarquin is worth it if you've got someone like Roy to lead the resistance and sit on the throne afterwards. But if you're fighting on behalf of the Empire of Sweat or Gobbotopia, you're going to get a lot of people killed overthrowing Tarquin and the survivors won't be any better off.

I'm not saying one should never fight against evil tyrants, but I am saying that "the current ruler is an evil tyrant" is not itself a sufficient reason; you also have to have a reasonable prospect of putting in someone , or something, who is not an evil tyrant and will moreover be able to keep things running. An incompetent ruler, even a good one, is worse than a competent evil tyrant because than you have various armies and factions fighting to overthrow them.

Case in point: Tarquin is evil and we all agree it would be a good thing if he were overthrown.

So who are you going to replace him with? Elan? Come on; Elan has no leadership capability, no intelligence, and no wisdom. He can't even lead a small band of adventurers, and you're going to make him responsible for an entire kingdom?

How about Haley? As you may have noticed, she was a heroic inspiration to the resistance in Azure City, but she was unable to unite the various factions; nor was she able to control Belkar when she was in charge of the OOTS. Again, is this the person you want in charge of an entire empire?

I saw a poster upthread blithely mention "rebuilding 20 villages" as a paladin in their game; did they also fork out the 5,000 GP of diamonds apiece to raise the dead? Did they work the fields, or provide labor, to replace the crops which can't just simply be rebuilt? Did they find replacements for the butchered cattle?

War is incredibly destructive, a concentration of all the evils humans can do to each other plus famine and disease and decades of reconstruction; farmers in Europe are still being killed by old WW1 artillery shells in their fields. Which is why it is almost always the worst possible choice and the greatest evil, above even tolerating evil tyrants.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Legoshrimp]

Living creatures from bacteria up go through a process - birth, reproduction (for some), death, afterlife (for some). Undead avoid the third step (until someone does something). They aren't making way for a new generation. That is disrespect for life.

Whether or not undead are capable of moral choices the act of creating them is an Evil one, and not just because the spells are, and that Evil taints the creature.

Isn't this an argument that creating constructs is inherently evil?
Isn't this an argument that creating anything is evil?

[rman]

But in D&D land you can get raised from the dead. You can get healed of horrible wounds with a word. Disease is a thing only the poor need to worry about, at all.


Which mean everyone can live in piles of crap. Because the solution for dysentery is a blessing from the local cleric. Seems like the presence of magic would not lead to the development of proper sewers or drainage or even basic medical practices.

[Legoshrimp]

Which mean everyone can live in piles of crap. Because the solution for dysentery is a blessing from the local cleric. Seems like the presence of magic would not lead to the development of proper sewers or drainage or even basic medical practices.

Basic medical practices don't need to exist because the risk of getting an infection while in surgery is 0. Clerics are way better then modern medicine in terms of safety and risk of dying to a superbug got at a hospital.

[Bulldog Psion]

War is incredibly destructive, a concentration of all the evils humans can do to each other plus famine and disease and decades of reconstruction; farmers in Europe are still being killed by old WW1 artillery shells in their fields. Which is why it is almost always the worst possible choice and the greatest evil, above even tolerating evil tyrants.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

So by your lights, it's better to surrender to tyranny and oppression than to fight for freedom and justice?

Well, some prominent statesmen have definitely agreed with you: Vidkun Quisling and Marshal Philippe Petain among them.

[axus]

No, because electrum isn't an element, it's an alloy.

But, Air is an alloy! Of sorts.

[pendell]

So by your lights, it's better to surrender to tyranny and oppression than to fight for freedom and justice?

Well, some prominent statesmen have definitely agreed with you: Vidkun Quisling and Marshal Philippe Petain among them.

It's basic Just War Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory).

Specifically, before launching a war of liberation, there are some important questions to ask:

1) Are you going to actually achieve freedom and justice, or are you just going to get a lot of people killed in the process? There have been plenty of wars of that sort that didn't end the way WWII did, with the first on record I'm aware of being the Peleponnesian War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War) . Athens went to war to bring democracy to the Mediterranean, and they committed some fairly horrific atrocities (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melian_Dialogue) in the process. Result: The domination of Greece first by Macedonia, then by the Roman Empire for four hundred years.

Likewise , the French Revolution declared a "war of all peoples against all kings". Result: Decades of war, culminating first in the Emperor Napoleon and then total defeat.

There's also the example of the Thirty Years War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War) or World War 1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_war_1), all of which were conceived of as wars of good against evil, and all of whom were primarily won by the vultures.

There are other questions as well:

2) Is this a battle that requires armed force?

Believe it or not, not all "fighting for freedom and justice" requires chopping people up with a sword. Often, society is better served by peaceable disobedience or even politics, if possible.

ISTR somebody once said 'fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity'. While that's a bit of a misconception , it is true that there are often times many, many better ways to bring about justice in the world than killing people.

That's why war is a last resort. It is, at best, a necessary evil. The opposite philosophy is called militarism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarism). It has a very poor odor.

3. Do you have a reasonable prospect of success?

That's a really important question; No matter how just your cause is, if you can't win the battle is not worth it.

During the Cold War the US provoked a number of "Freedom fighting insurgencies" such as the Bay of Pigs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion). Several thousand young men were dumped on a beach with inadequate supplies and support; they were crushed. I suspect not only they, but their families on the island, paid the price as well.

But .. they died for freedom and justice, right? Tell it to the dead.

There are never any lack of pretexts for fighting a war, especially over something so abstract as "justice". Go around the world and I'll wager, of the seven billion people on this world, you can find perhaps ten who believe they have justice and aren't being oppressed by someone or something. Which is why, before you start a battle against even an objectively evil tyrant, you've got to think twice or three times before starting up something as destructive as a war. While there are exceptions (such as WWII), as a rule the war will not bring about justice; only a great deal of misery.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[King of Nowhere]

...


You could also sum it up as "ye gotta do tha good ye can, when ye can. Else ye end up doin' na good at all" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html). Or "you're not helping anyone by getting yourself killed" (which i remember as a quote from roy, but can't find it)

[Doug Lampert]

I don't think that is quite what was calculated. The PHB gives the pay for an untrained hireling as 1sp per day, i.e. about 35gp a year. A trained hireling gets three times that - about 100gp a year. The calculation was for a self employed craftsman or profesional.
Nope, the calculation was the earn a living first thing in the description of the craft skill. Working for yourself as self-employed you're using the "make items" rules which allow you to do MUCH BETTER than the 481 GP I gave him per year if he works for himself. 481 GP is skilled work for hire by a typical level 1 commoner.

Untrained day labor gets 1 sp (also PHB craft rules), but if they can work for a week they can craft untrained for half their check result in GP (craft is explicitly usable untrained and the very first thing it tells you is that you can get half your check result in income per week), which is MUCH better (over 7 times better on average).

And all the PHB pay rates are for wandering vagabonds working week to week, one might reasonably assume that someone known to be reliable gets paid better.


The job the pirates are being hired for is one that could be done by skilled hirelings, but with a element of danger. 200gp is good pay but not a fortune.

But the above is dead right. 200 GP is good but not great given that there may be some risk and this is skilled labor.

[pendell]

You could also sum it up as "ye gotta do tha good ye can, when ye can. Else ye end up doin' na good at all" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html). Or "you're not helping anyone by getting yourself killed" (which i remember as a quote from roy, but can't find it)

That works too. :) And in far fewer words.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bulldog Psion]

But the above is dead right. 200 GP is good but not great given that there may be some risk and this is skilled labor.

Hmmm.

Everyone keeps worrying about mutiny, but it could cause almost as many problems if the pirates just decide to rob someone along the way, in order to raise their take on this mission. Some treasure-carrying dwarves, perhaps. They are pirates, after all.

[GreatWyrmGold]

"Good triumphs over Evil while Neutral gets the bill."

I may have a new favorite OotS quote.

[8BitNinja]

But, Air is an alloy! Of sorts.

Air is a gas, not a metal

an alloy is when two metals are combined

[Jasdoif]

So by your lights, it's better to surrender to tyranny and oppression than to fight for freedom and justice?There's more to getting freedom and justice than creating a place where freedom and justice could exist. And adventurers, what with the seeking of adventure and such, don't always hang around long enough to prevent a new oppressive tyrant from taking over before freedom and justice can take root. And oppressive tyrants aren't exactly known for benevolent transitions of power, what with the oppression and all; they're more frequently associated with wanton violence until they get their personally-supported frameworks of oppressive tyranny in place.

Fighting for freedom and justice is well and good, but actually getting that freedom and justice is a more noble goal.


But, Air is an alloy! Of sorts.That's not much of a solution.


Untrained day labor gets 1 sp (also PHB craft rules), but if they can work for a week they can craft untrained for half their check result in GP (craft is explicitly usable untrained and the very first thing it tells you is that you can get half your check result in income per week), which is MUCH better (over 7 times better on average).I figured it was difficult finding someone to pay every commoner in a settlement for making craft checks...and/or there's a multiversal collusion that gets PCs better rates on hiring porters to haul heavy stuff around for them, much like the one intended to give PCs challenges they should be able to overcome and loot whose value is coordinated with their own abilities.

[KorvinStarmast]

Air is a gas, not a metal

an alloy is when two metals are combined
Air is a mixture of gases; FWIW, it behaves as a fluid under a variety of conditions ... to include the production of thrust (propellers on the Mechane) and lift (the sails on the Mechane).

You are correct about alloys.
==========================
Tarquin's evil is tied to his amoral use and abuse of people to keep himself in power. He uses war as a tool, and even as a piece of misdirection for political objectives.

Just war theory is founded on the principle of sovereign kings, which nowadays you would call tyrants and despots. Just war theory is founded on the principle of sovereign kings, which nowadays you would call tyrants and despots. Augustine and Aquinas anchored it. Since the peace of Westphalia it has undergone some interesting mutations up unto the present day.

the war needed to be waged by a legitimate authority,
have a just cause,
and have the right intentions.

It is that last bit that paves the way to Sherman's observed truth: War is Hell. (Good intentions pave the road to hell ...)

The proportionality bit that has been added Creates Longer Wars whereas overwhelming force/imbalance actually Shortens Wars. The politically minded theorists often forget that in their tea rooms. War as Sport is one of the problems of the current ideation of "just war." (I will not further digress into current/real world politics). To sum up: it's just war, there isn't a special form called Just War. That's an idea that is entirely subjective.

1) Are you going to actually achieve freedom and justice, or are you just going to get a lot of people killed in the process?
A war, to include a rebellion, has a political objective. Whether it is a realistic one, or an achievable one, isn't known until it is tried. See Clausewitz on the concept of friction in war, among other things. Nobody won a war they didn't try to win. (A war usually ends when one side stops fighting for ______ reasons).

Peleponnesian War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War) . Athens went to war to bring democracy to the Mediterranean,
That is not true. Are you sure you read Thucydides?

Result was that Athens was ultimately defeated by Sparta. It was sometime later that Macedonian expansion happened. Between times, Thebes laid some lumber on Sparta.

The Roman Empire arriving isn't a fair assessment of "result" of that war ... you reached quite a bit there.

Likewise , the French Revolution declared a "war of all peoples against all kings". Result: Decades of war, culminating first in the Emperor Napoleon and then total defeat.

And A Return Of The Bourbon Monarchy, as well as the Metternich System that brought no small amount of peace to Europe for a generation.

There's also the example of the Thirty Years War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War) or World War 1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_war_1), all of which were conceived of as wars of good against evil, and all of whom were primarily won by the vultures.
Thirty Years war being a "war of good against evil" is a poor summary. Awful. It is at odd with both political and military history.

2) Is this a battle that requires armed force?

Believe it or not, not all "fighting for freedom and justice" requires chopping people up with a sword. Often, society is better served by peaceable disobedience or even politics, if possible.

A fair point. Not all political/social problems require force to solve the problem.

ISTR somebody once said 'fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity'. While that's a bit of a misconception
It's actually a load of garbage that utterly fails to account for what war is.

That's why war is a last resort.
No, modern thinking is that war Should Be A Last Resort, not that it is A Last Resort.

It is, at best, a necessary evil.
Yep. And it's freakin' expensive.

There are never any lack of pretexts for fighting a war, especially over something so abstract as "justice".
Such a pretext is usually part of the smoke scree, the PR campaign, the Justification for going to war for a more mundane objective.

With warmest regards, rebellions and revolutions have more chances for success when a third party helps out, or when the entity is rotten within and is fighting itself.

Which returns us to Tarquin: he uses the "continual warfare state" model to stay in power, fused with a taste of the infamous method of the English Kings to work toward the "balance of power" strategy to prevent a single continental hegemon.

[8BitNinja]

Air is a mixture of gases

Isn't air 20% Oxygen, 80% Nitrogen, .03% Carbon, .05% Hydrogen, .9% Argon, .18% Neon, .5% Helium, .01% Krypton, and the rest Xenon?

This is off the top of my head

[8BitNinja]

@KorvinStarmst: Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't compounds heterogeneous?

I'm pretty sure electrum is Homologus

[IamWeasel]

I can't see a mutiny at all. Mostly because the ship is on loan right now, it's Julio Scoundrel's ship and he would be the Captain if he were there. I also get the impression that they are quite loyal to Julio. I also think the payment made them all quite happy. This is almost exclusively Andi's problem with Bandana and looks to be 1 sided at that.

One of my favorite aspects about D&D is the planes. I would like to see a chart of OoTS Universe's planes. I mean is there really a plane for every element on the Periodic Table and FIRE, AIR, WATER, RANCH? I would probably draw it up that there is only 1 elemental plane of earth and it would be inhabited by the Periodic Table Elementals.

[aurilee]

One of my favorite aspects about D&D is the planes. I would like to see a chart of OoTS Universe's planes. I mean is there really a plane for every element on the Periodic Table and FIRE, AIR, WATER, RANCH? I would probably draw it up that there is only 1 elemental plane of earth and it would be inhabited by the Periodic Table Elementals.

I mentioned this farther back in the thread, but I like to think that there's a plane for metal elementals and non-metal elementals.

So by my headcanon, there would be the individual planes of the classical elements, the ranch plane, the metal plane which is home to the metal periodic table elementals and the non-metal plane which has the non-metallic period table elementals.

This is of course not confirmed by anything, except that in this comic the plane they show clearly has more than one type of metal elemental (Au and Mg), so there's not likely to just be a plane for Au.

[pendell]

Peleponnesian War . Athens went to war to bring democracy to the Mediterranean,
That is not true. Are you sure you read Thucydides?

Result was that Athens was ultimately defeated by Sparta. It was sometime later that Macedonian expansion happened. Between times, Thebes laid some lumber on Sparta.

The Roman Empire arriving isn't a fair assessment of "result" of that war ... you reached quite a bit there.


My recollection is that the Athenians broke themselves by attacking Syracuse. Once that defeat occurred, the Spartans gained the support of the Persians and used near-infinite money to fight a war of attrition. They forced the Athenians to surrender and imposed the Thirty Tyrants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants) as an oligarchical government. It lasted a few years before the Athenians revolted and re-established their democracy. Sparta, meanwhile, proved to be an even less successful hegemon than Athens was, and was eventually defeated by Thebes at the battle of Leuctra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leuctra). Thebes, Corinth, and other city states fought among themselves for another few decades until Phillip of Macedon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon) brought them all into his own system about 359 BCE. Macedon conquered the known world, fragmented, and was later absorbed by Rome about Two hundred years later (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Roman_province)).

There were other reasons for the war, but one of the critical reasons was ideology (http://essayistlawyer.blogspot.com/2015/05/ideological-dimensions-of-peloponnesian.html) -- a war of democracies (led by Athens) against oligarchies (led by Spartans). Each believed they were in a terrible war of good versus all that was wrong with the world. They fought for decades, but the ultimate result of this war was the end of the golden age (http://www.history4kids.co/2013/08/ancient-greece-and-end-of-golden-age.html), and the domination of both cities by alien empires which would last for centuries.

It's a classic example, in my view, of a war that meant defeat even for the winners. As another Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus) once said of another battle ... "another such victory would ruin us."

The reason I throw in Roman domination is because classical Greece never did recover fully from the cataclysm that was the Peleponnesian war, leaving them under foreign domination for centuries. I agree, it's a bit of a stretch, but I was trying to write a short post, not an academic paper, so I ran events together a little bit :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Bulldog Psion]

This is of course not confirmed by anything, except that in this comic the plane they show clearly has more than one type of metal elemental (Au and Mg), so there's not likely to just be a plane for Au.

I agree that there's unlikely to be a specific demiplane of gold. If there were, anyway, it would have been mined out by high-level adventurers long ago. :smallwink:

[Rift_Wolf]

I agree that there's unlikely to be a specific demiplane of gold. If there were, anyway, it would have been mined out by high-level adventurers long ago. :smallwink:

More likely it's jealously guarded by high level adventurers who understand false market scarcity and the magic of resounding earth Spirits. *10 points to whoever gets the reference*.
I feel safer discussing Elemental planes over War alignments...

[Jasdoif]

I agree that there's unlikely to be a specific demiplane of gold. If there were, anyway, it would have been mined out by high-level adventurers long ago. :smallwink:I think it was emptied, yeah. Something about a planar portal connecting it to the Elemental Plane of Fire, and a really big ceramic funnel suspended over a canyon....

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given that Athens was running an Empire in all but name, and were an (expansive) oligarchy as well, it's really hard to tell them apart from the Spartans some days. The Persians were playing one side off against the other back and forth the whole way too.

Every time people start talking about fighting for justice or peace or what have you, I start singing songs by The Who. Particularly the wise phrase "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

[8BitNinja]

I agree that there's unlikely to be a specific demiplane of gold. If there were, anyway, it would have been mined out by high-level adventurers long ago. :smallwink:

think of the inflation

[Ruck]

That seems to assume that life is in some way inherentlygood or requires respect.
"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#goodVsEvil)

[pendell]

Given that Athens was running an Empire in all but name, and were an (expansive) oligarchy as well, it's really hard to tell them apart from the Spartans some days. The Persians were playing one side off against the other back and forth the whole way too.

Every time people start talking about fighting for justice or peace or what have you, I start singing songs by The Who. Particularly the wise phrase "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Exactly my point. Real honest-to-goodness Aragorns, kings who are both good and wise, are rare as hen's teeth; the usual run of people who wind up leading revolutions are Stannis Baratheons or Littlefingers; men of great ambition and little scruple whose main problem with an unjust world is they're not the ones sitting at the top barking orders.

Actually, Stannis vs. Joffrey brings out my point pretty well. Yes, Joffrey was an illegitimate king and an evil one. Yes, Stannis was the rightful heir.

So is this fact enough reason to bring war, with its attendant famine, disease, plunder, and rape, across seven kingdoms, so Stannis can burn every man, woman , and child in King's Landing who won't bend the knee to his ideology? Is a man who would burn his own daughter alive really the person you want sitting on the throne? How high is the mountain of corpses you're willing to build to make that a reality?

Good, to me, means that ordinary men and women can sleep peacefully in their beds without having to play host to a platoon who will eat all their food and pay in wartime scrip, won't have to have their goods and crops 'requisitioned' for the good of the service. So that they don't face starvation because the soldiers took all their food, then burned all their crops to deny them to the enemy. So that the lack of nutrition doesn't break their immune systems and cause disease,, contributed if there are tons of bodies nearby. So that they don't have to beg, steal, and rummage through rubbish heaps while the propaganda reels ignore their suffering, or dismiss it as 'collateral damage'. So that their sons don't get conscripted to get killed a hundred miles away; the daughters are not taken off as 'brides' for the fighters or enlisted in the 'comfort corps'. So that a band of rebels won't set up shop in their house, then have the local government come through and blow it down with a self-propelled howitzer rather than risk their own troops storming the building.

A world, in other words, where people can get up, go to work, and raise their families without fear.

If a war is not somehow making that world more a reality, then it isn't a war worth fighting. IMO.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[davidbofinger]

Fighting Tarquin is worth it if you've got someone like Roy to lead the resistance and sit on the throne afterwards. [...] So who are you going to replace him with?

The new king needs you to clean his litter box.

[Bulldog Psion]

think of the inflation

Well, that all depends on how many worlds those high-level parties come from. If the gold is spread out over millions or billions of worlds (or more), then there might not be much inflation on most of them; only on a few where the said parties managed to snag an out of the ordinary quantity of gold.

[factotum]

Well, that all depends on how many worlds those high-level parties come from. If the gold is spread out over millions or billions of worlds (or more), then there might not be much inflation on most of them; only on a few where the said parties managed to snag an out of the ordinary quantity of gold.

The problem here is that, in the usual D&D cosmology, elemental planes and demiplanes are infinite. So if there *were* a demiplane of gold, there would be an infinite amount of gold in it and it wouldn't matter how many worlds it was spread over, it would still cause runaway inflation if it was trivial to get at. That, to my mind, is the critical point, though--this gold is *not* easy to get at, because it requires Plane Shift and then a group of adventurers who are willing to sit there mining rather than, say, killing the nearest dragon and taking his stuff, which is much more fun!

[Rift_Wolf]

The problem here is that, in the usual D&D cosmology, elemental planes and demiplanes are infinite. So if there *were* a demiplane of gold, there would be an infinite amount of gold in it and it wouldn't matter how many worlds it was spread over, it would still cause runaway inflation if it was trivial to get at. That, to my mind, is the critical point, though--this gold is *not* easy to get at, because it requires Plane Shift and then a group of adventurers who are willing to sit there mining rather than, say, killing the nearest dragon and taking his stuff, which is much more fun!

Actually, thinking about it, this may have a basis in SRD. 10 copper coins, make up a silver coin, and 10 silver coins make up a gold coin. Seeing as an English pound coin is worth 100 copper-plated steel coins and the pound is copper, nickel and zinc, doesn't it sound like dnd cosmology suffered a massive devaluation of silver and gold at some point?

[Jasdoif]

The problem here is that, in the usual D&D cosmology, elemental planes and demiplanes are infinite.Demiplanes tend to be finite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#demiplanes), actually.


Demiplanes

This catch-all category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across.

[sims796]

That works too. :) And in far fewer words.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

But I really liked those words.

[8BitNinja]

New currency idea

Bottle caps

Works great in Fallout

[Legoshrimp]

New currency idea

Bottle caps

Works great in Fallout

Only because the game ignores that they take up space.
Apparently 2000-3000 is somewhere around 11 lbs.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/fallout-fan-who-sent-2000-bottle-caps-to-bethesda-/1100-6428452/

At least in dnd you can theoretically trade your gold up to plat.

[Rift_Wolf]

Demiplanes tend to be finite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#demiplanes), actually.

New headcanon; Elemental Demiplane of Gold ceased to exist shortly before the Demiplane of Accountants and Bureaucracy appeared. That gold Elemental was a rare exile.

No wait that's depressing.

[Jasdoif]

New headcanon; Elemental Demiplane of Gold ceased to exist shortly before the Demiplane of Accountants and Bureaucracy appeared. That gold Elemental was a rare exile.

No wait that's depressing.A demiplane of bureaucrats would indeed be depressing.

As for the rest, you just haven't headcanon-ed far enough. The gold elemental was indeed a rare exile from his original home, but these days he's a traveling merchant from an enclave of gold elementals, who reside in the stronghold of Aqua Fortis: an expansive glass palace, presided over by the primal gold elemental Eeloks, submersed in a lake of acid in one of the few stable areas of the plane of Limbo.

[8BitNinja]

A demiplane of bureaucrats would indeed be depressing


Not for Hermes from Futurama

[St Fan]

Killing someone to raise an undead is Evil because you are killing someone for profit.

Using a corpse, which is not on the Good's list of concern, to raise an undead that will provide benefits to the society... is at worse Neutral if the necro is charging for their service.


Interestingly, that reminds me of a campaign I thought of a few years ago, with the PCs sent to spy on a nation that was founded by exiled necromancers decades ago.

All rumors depict it as a nightmarish place, a gigantic graveyard populated by undead... except that's just the border. The nation itself is in fact going through the equivalent of the industrial revolution (while the rest of the world is still in medieval stasis) thanks to mindless undead doing most of the hard labor. As such, the whole society has a much higher standard of living than elsewhere, with more food and amenities thanks to the tireless manpower, as well as better non-magical medicine (since they have no qualm against studying dead bodies, unlike the rest of the world). Hence the inhabitants are overall much happier, even though the culture is a bit on the morbid side (for example, children don't play at what kind of heroes they want to become when grown up, but at what kind of epic undead they want to become after their deaths...).

[Rogar Demonblud]

A demiplane of bureaucrats...

"Now that's what I call a target rich environment!"