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8BitNinja
2016-03-16, 10:14 AM
In pretty much every RPG, the armor works pretty much the same, put on the armor, and all damage you take will be reduced by the armor's toughness. Leather armor will absorb mace blows, but plate armor still takes damage from arrows.

If you wanted a different armor system, what would it be? Post below

I actually had a concept for an espionage RPG set in the Cold War, where each person is assigned an organization to work for randomly by cards (CIA, MI-6, KGB, MSS) which would also put you on two sides of a fight between NATO and Warsaw, with everyone in the party suspicous of each other. The armor system would not have "armor points" but rather have armor that protects yu from certain damage.

EXAMPLE:

Kevlar Vest
100% Handgun Resistance
100% Small Blade Resistance
50% Rifle Resistance
50% Large Blade Resistance

Vitruviansquid
2016-03-16, 10:36 AM
There is too much granularity for granularity's sake in the rules of RPGs. Unless you are actually making an informed decision about which damage types will seriously screw you and which types you are comfortable taking, armor does not need to offer different levels of resistance to different damage

MrStabby
2016-03-16, 10:45 AM
One thing that I think systems in general could improve upon is medium armor.

Too often characters take the heaviest or the lightest armor; there is never a valid tradeoff that makes everything in the middle as attractive.

If a little more granularity would help differentiate medium armor then I could get behind it.

Final Hyena
2016-03-16, 11:06 AM
One thing that I think systems in general could improve upon is medium armor.

I think I had an NPC who had used medium armour. He used regular PC character creation and medium armour was the best option for him. Right now I have a cleric using medium armour as I could only get my str/dex to 14, but yes those are a rare exception to the problem.

Back on topic I've always liked the idea of armour which had a touch and hit ac, if you hit the touch ac you have to bypass DR which is insanely high for slashing/piercing. If you hit the regular ac you do full damage. This is balanced by piercing and slashing weapons doing more damage. I like the idea as it's a smidgen more realistic, but it's way to cumbersome to be fun in my eyes.

Fri
2016-03-16, 11:17 AM
In pretty much every RPG, the armor works pretty much the same, put on the armor, and all damage you take will be reduced by the armor's toughness. Leather armor will absorb mace blows, but plate armor still takes damage from arrows.


"Pretty much every RPG" ?

It doesn't even work that way in 3.5.

But here's some mechanics on how armor works in other games I played that differs enough with DnD's AC and DR.

in Fate Core defaultly armor is just another aspect I guess. If you feel it's justified you can use it to do your normal aspecty stuff with a fate point like reroll or add bonus roll from defending against whatever your armor protect you against. If you're very inclined, you can make some stunts related to your armor to add more things.

Example, an urban-wizard might have "Enchanted Leather Coat" as aspect, which he can use in pairing with a fate point to add bonus rolls when he's getting shot at. And it might have "enchanted" stunt, which he explain as "can use lore instead of toughness to defend against physical attack."

in Legend of the Wulin, armor add chi threshold, which is the number your enemy have to beat in their rolls to damage you. By default all adventurers clothings are light armor. Heavy armor give you more threshold. Since it's magical wuxia, I guess armors work as good against all things except for techniques or weapons that specifically bypass armor.

Exalted uses dice pool, and armor soak some damage dice. For example, enemy damage you with 14 dice, each of those dice are rolled to be either success or failure, with maximum of 14 damages as you can see. But if you have 8 armor, your enemy can only roll 6 dice.

Also, I remember was talking about a certain system with my friends just recently, but for some reason I can't remember what system we're talking about. It was about bad systems we've played. Basically in that system, there's like a dozen of armor type that each can only be effectively bypassed by a certain damage type, so by chance your adventurer most likely won't have the type of weapon that can bypass a random enemy's armor. "

Slipperychicken
2016-03-16, 12:30 PM
One thing that I think systems in general could improve upon is medium armor.

Too often characters take the heaviest or the lightest armor; there is never a valid tradeoff that makes everything in the middle as attractive.


Shadowrun gives those in-between armors and weapons their niche with the setting. Due to the nature of many missions, looking reasonably inconspicuous while still being protected is often useful. You don't want to try sneaking power-armor past a checkpoint, but you don't want to walk in with just a t-shirt either. When you're at a party hosted by dangerous people, you want armor, but you don't want to look like you just walked out of an NRA rally.


Also, people didn't really pick medium armors for their better protection. They took them because some constraint (cost, heat, weight, training, subtlety, etc) prevented them from using the heavy stuff. Either that, or the heavy armor didn't provide enough of a benefit to be worth it. If power armor exists and you can afford it, then all things equal you're not going to settle for an armored jacket.

Segev
2016-03-16, 12:35 PM
Paladium's Rifts has mega-damage armor actually have its own MDC (basically hp) that are depleted before the character's own. (This is important, because most characters don't have MDC; they have SDC. 1 MDC = 100 SDC, and you round down when seeing if SD hurts MDC. So MD weapons do 100x their damage to SDC characters. So you NEED that MDC armor to keep you alive!)

Larger armor can break this down by hit location, too.

8BitNinja
2016-03-16, 01:24 PM
One thing that I think systems in general could improve upon is medium armor.

Too often characters take the heaviest or the lightest armor; there is never a valid tradeoff that makes everything in the middle as attractive.

If a little more granularity would help differentiate medium armor then I could get behind it.

In my game Futurequest, medium armor cuts off a small amount of speed, but protects twice as much as light armor. Is that attractive enough?

MrStabby
2016-03-17, 11:17 AM
In my game Futurequest, medium armor cuts off a small amount of speed, but protects twice as much as light armor. Is that attractive enough?

Maybe - but hard to judge without knowing how important these functions are.

8BitNinja
2016-03-17, 01:31 PM
Maybe - but hard to judge without knowing how important these functions are.

Speed dictates the amount of actions you can perform in one turn. Medium armor cuts off one action, but it absorbs twice as much damage as light armor, which doesn't detract any speed.

If you were something like a Scout, then medium armor would not be the thing for you, since your job is to be fast, while a Marine may make more use of Medium armor, due to usually being the point man. He needs to still be somewhat agile, but he can sacrifice some agility to be more protected. The Scout needs to move quickly behind enemy lines to identify targets, traps, etc. while the Marine needs to be one taking out the hostiles. Heavy armor would be for something like an Enforcer or Juggernaut, since their job is to tank hits and to be the Enforcer is designed to literally be used as improvised cover. I'm pretty sure a meat shield will want to wear heavy armor.

CharonsHelper
2016-03-18, 12:31 PM
Kevlar Vest
100% Handgun Resistance
100% Small Blade Resistance
50% Rifle Resistance
50% Large Blade Resistance

I think that 4 different stats is too much to keep track of.

I'd stick to melee & firearms. If you want heavier firearms/melee weapons to work better versus armor - you could just give them some sort of armor piercing quality.

I'd also suggest a numerical damage resistance rather than %. This makes bigger/slower weapons inherently better versus armor - and then you can have more variety with weapons which do better vs. armor mixed in.

Ex: A broadsword does more damage than a warhammer, making it much better against unarmored foes, but a warhammer's armor piercing may make it the superior choice when up against heavier armors.

8BitNinja
2016-03-18, 01:31 PM
I think that 4 different stats is too much to keep track of.

I'd stick to melee & firearms. If you want heavier firearms/melee weapons to work better versus armor - you could just give them some sort of armor piercing quality.

I'd also suggest a numerical damage resistance rather than %. This makes bigger/slower weapons inherently better versus armor - and then you can have more variety with weapons which do better vs. armor mixed in.

Ex: A broadsword does more damage than a warhammer, making it much better against unarmored foes, but a warhammer's armor piercing may make it the superior choice when up against heavier armors.

This is a good idea, keep in mind, this is just a concept, I'm unsure if it will ever take off, I'm still revising both of my other games while trying to find time to playtest and write lore for the Questverse, so far there are about four books planned.

And that's not even considering the board game that I stopped development in just to work on this

Arbane
2016-03-20, 01:30 PM
There's lots of possible approaches. Here's a few:

Warhammer (yeah, the miniatures game) uses an 'armor save' - whenever you get hit, try to make this roll to avoid ALL damage. Might be good in a modern-ish game where one bullet = you're down.
Final Fantasy Tactics (console game) just has armor add to your total hitpoints. (And magic points, for wizard robes and such). Not realistic, but simple.
The infamously gonzo game World of Synnibar had armor measured in 'tenths' - every 'tenth' divided all damage you took by one tenth. So, three 'tenths' would divide all damage by 1000. (This was a system where high-level damage totals looked like phone numbers.)
The original Fallout (computer RPG) had a hellaciously complex system where armor reduced your chance of getting hit, provided flat damage reduction, AND removed a percentage of the damage that got past the reduction. Probably too complex for a pen-and-paper game.
The Elric Basic Role Playing game had variable armor ratings - bad armor might be 1d6, really good armor might be 3d6 - whenever you get hit, roll the armor rating and subtract that much from the damage.

8BitNinja
2016-03-21, 01:04 AM
These are all really creative ideas, I'm actually thinking of applying them to my other works

Edit for spelling error, I wrote that response on my phone, and typing on a phone is hard

Anonymouswizard
2016-03-21, 07:03 AM
In pretty much every RPG, the armor works pretty much the same, put on the armor, and all damage you take will be reduced by the armor's toughness. Leather armor will absorb mace blows, but plate armor still takes damage from arrows.

If you wanted a different armor system, what would it be? Post below

In Anima: Beyond Fantasy every armour has 7 'Armour Types', numbers which tell you how good that armour is at resisting damage. Higher is better, and the seven types are:
-Cut
-Impact
-Thrust
-Heat
-Electric
-Cold
-Energy

Each corresponds to a damage type with the same name. In combat, after the attack roll and the dodge/block roll have been compared, if the total is in the attacker's favour (defenders favour works the same regardless of AT) you get the armour's AT for the weapon's attack and cross reference the difference and AT on a table which tells you how much damage you do. Slow, but models armour okay.


One thing that I think systems in general could improve upon is medium armor.

Too often characters take the heaviest or the lightest armor; there is never a valid tradeoff that makes everything in the middle as attractive.

If a little more granularity would help differentiate medium armor then I could get behind it.

Really, there just needs to be a reason why you wouldn't wear Heavy Armour over Medium. At which point, the drawbacks of heavier armour really do need to be drawbacks, rather than just 'no Dex bonus' or the like.

8BitNinja
2016-03-21, 01:32 PM
Really, there just needs to be a reason why you wouldn't wear Heavy Armour over Medium. At which point, the drawbacks of heavier armour really do need to be drawbacks, rather than just 'no Dex bonus' or the like.

A good drawback for heavy armor is less actions

Beleriphon
2016-03-21, 02:56 PM
Keep in mind that even today people want to wear the heaviest possible armour possible. But its often dictated by the environment and needs of those using said armour. To take a truly modern example the Israeli Merkava tank is much, much heavier than the American M1 Abrams. The Israel sports much heavier armour as well, but it also doesn't need to be transported by aircraft into a conflict zone since the IDF doesn't move their equipment out of Israel. The American's on the other hand need to be able to move their equipment overseas rapidly which often means air transport so that means tanks have to be both light enough and the correct shape to fight into a plane's cargo hold, often two at a time.

The same thing applies to personal amour. The strongest armour protects the best, but at the same time it is going to be heavy, restrict you in some way either or be expensive to produce. As the adage goes, it can be cheap, good or made quickly: pick two. The case of armour it can protect well, provide unrestricted movement, or be inexpensive: pick two.

Anonymouswizard
2016-03-21, 04:18 PM
A good drawback for heavy armor is less actions

No, because having more than one action per turn is hilariously powerful, and really hard to balance. In GURPS it's one of the 100-point 'totally unfair' advantages, in Shadowrun no dedicated combatant will fight without some form of initiative booster, in Eclipse Phase the best combat drugs add extra actions. Extra actions are powerful, and thus nobody will use armour that drops actions, which defeats the point of adding a bigger disadvantage to heavier armours in order to encourage the medium models.

I think the best thing is initiative and movement penalties, with reduction in them if you train specifically to do that, plus increased fatigue from wearing heavier armour. That way medium becomes what you use if you need more protection but don't want to sacrifice offense.

CharonsHelper
2016-03-21, 06:30 PM
The case of armour it can protect well, provide unrestricted movement, or be inexpensive: pick two.

Except - in a sci-fi setting you will likely be able to afford the best manufactured personal armor relatively quickly. At least in any game where you're expected to be able to afford a starship or some such. This allows you to choose protect well & unrestricted movement pretty quickly.

So - the choice should probably be a sliding scale between only protect well & unrestricted movement.

8BitNinja
2016-03-21, 06:38 PM
Except - in a sci-fi setting you will likely be able to afford the best manufactured personal armor relatively quickly. At least in any game where you're expected to be able to afford a starship or some such. This allows you to choose protect well & unrestricted movement pretty quickly.

So - the choice should probably be a sliding scale between only protect well & unrestricted movement.

In my game, the best armorcosts about 20,000 credits.

To put that into perspective, a good ration costs 10

CharonsHelper
2016-03-21, 06:56 PM
In my game, the best armorcosts about 20,000 credits.

To put that into perspective, a good ration costs 10

So - a credit is worth a bit less than $1. $20,000 isn't that much if you can afford a spaceship - which would be (going by the modern price of large jets) probably at least several hundred thousand credits for a junker. Probably a couple million.

So... the price of the best armor would be pretty negligible relatively speaking.

8BitNinja
2016-03-21, 07:47 PM
So - a credit is worth a bit less than $1. $20,000 isn't that much if you can afford a spaceship - which would be (going by the modern price of large jets) probably at least several hundred thousand credits for a junker. Probably a couple million.

So... the price of the best armor would be pretty negligible relatively speaking.

A spaceship is a strange term in Futurequest. Everyone owns some form of space travel, but I believe that you are talking about a starshilp, which is something that flying for just one day will cost a minimum of 100,000 credits, plus the 10 bollion you spent to get it.

Fighter ships aren't too costly, but will s set you back a pretty penny.

Knaight
2016-03-21, 10:34 PM
One option I've seen (in a video-game of all places) was that armor provides a chance of reducing damage. In the game, it was a matter of roll 1d6, get above a number, and if you do the armor reduces damage by a number. This makes choices between more reliable armor that always or almost always does at least a little reduction, or less reliable armor that at least can soak a nasty shot. It also creates a way to model both how good the armor is at protecting you against what hits it and coverage.

8BitNinja
2016-03-21, 11:41 PM
One option I've seen (in a video-game of all places) was that armor provides a chance of reducing damage. In the game, it was a matter of roll 1d6, get above a number, and if you do the armor reduces damage by a number. This makes choices between more reliable armor that always or almost always does at least a little reduction, or less reliable armor that at least can soak a nasty shot. It also creates a way to model both how good the armor is at protecting you against what hits it and coverage.

What video game?

Knaight
2016-03-21, 11:54 PM
What video game?

Card Hunter.

Anonymouswizard
2016-03-22, 05:39 AM
In my game, the best armorcosts about 20,000 credits.

To put that into perspective, a good ration costs 10

But we aren't talking about the cost of armour in respect to rations, we are talking about it in comparison to spaceships, of which we are likely talking at least interplanetary if not interstellar. For example, in Rogue Trader, for the acquisition cost of the cheapest ship you can get up to 30 suits of common quality Power Armour (the number is so low because Power Armour is extremely rare), 1000 suits of common quality carapace armour, 5000 suits of common quality guard flak armour, or nigh-infinite common quality flak coats (stick them with the unlimited number of watches you chose to begin the game with).

In my game, Infinity Drive, the most expensive armour costs $50,000 and is heavily restricted (at least in the core worlds). The cheapest space ship hasn't been priced yet, as nothing in the game so far allows a PC to gain the $1,000,000 or so a fully functional ship costs, about $500,000 if you just want ground to orbit. Rations are considered to cost so little to not be worth tracking.

ace rooster
2016-03-22, 06:55 AM
For medium armour to be used, I think we need to redefine things a little. If we regard medium armour as standard tactical gear, and heavy armour to be bomb squad gear (you know the suit I mean), then most of the time medium armour is used. There needs to be a very good reason not to use heavier armour, and in most games one simply does not exist. For example, armour that halves movement speed and lowers dodge chances, but makes you all but unkillable to small arms. Great for clearing buildings, not so good in open fields against heavy weapons. There would actually be a trade off.

The other problem is that most of the time armour does not reach the point of diminishing returns. For example, if medium armour deflected 95% of small arms fire, heavy armour 100%, dodging the heavy weapons fire becomes more important than that 5%. Armour is generally not effective enough to ever be redundant in RPGs, so heavier armour is strictly better. You would need a system that takes very low vulnerability to certain attack forms in it's stride (ie, not having fights take forever even with this).

Havelocke
2016-03-22, 08:35 AM
one of my favorite systems for calculating armor was Renegade Legion: Interceptor. It is a spaceship board game but the damage system was based on a template mechanic, where different weapons applied different degrees (and shapes) of damage to a block of armor squares. Once those blocks were penetrated the damage would cause critical hits to vital systems. In terms of personal armor in a role playing game, the same mechanic could be applied. I considered using it for a homemade rpg I was kicking around. lasers just scored the surface of the armor so the top box would be burned off, but missles would cut out a triangular chunk of blocks. Railguns would penetrate in a straight line (very dangerous!). Once the blocks were gone, you had no armor on that side so maneuvering your ship was crucial to keep it flying.

For a personal RPG I could see a breastplate having something similar, an arrow would penetrate through it whereas a mace would dent it. In modern times, military body armor is layered between kevlar and hardened plates, those plates can only sustain a few hits from a high caliber weapon before they shatter and are no longer suitable for protection. Kevlar is resilient but can be cut and penetrated as well.

8BitNinja
2016-03-22, 10:38 AM
But we aren't talking about the cost of armour in respect to rations, we are talking about it in comparison to spaceships, of which we are likely talking at least interplanetary if not interstellar. For example, in Rogue Trader, for the acquisition cost of the cheapest ship you can get up to 30 suits of common quality Power Armour (the number is so low because Power Armour is extremely rare), 1000 suits of common quality carapace armour, 5000 suits of common quality guard flak armour, or nigh-infinite common quality flak coats (stick them with the unlimited number of watches you chose to begin the game with).

In my game, Infinity Drive, the most expensive armour costs $50,000 and is heavily restricted (at least in the core worlds). The cheapest space ship hasn't been priced yet, as nothing in the game so far allows a PC to gain the $1,000,000 or so a fully functional ship costs, about $500,000 if you just want ground to orbit. Rations are considered to cost so little to not be worth tracking.

A civilian craft costs about 10,000, your average fighter craft costs 50,000, and a Starship is 10 Billion in base value

Leewei
2016-03-22, 04:34 PM
Back in 1st edition AD&D, there were optional bonuses/penalties for each weapon when used against specific types of armor. Rolemaster and Spacemaster also had enormous tables for resolving stabs, blasts, whacks, and zaps according to armor type. These added a lot of complexity to the games, but didn't seem to be worth it for the extra fun they added.

With modern notepads and smartphones, you could probably integrate this into your game far better than those games managed, but the effort involved would probably be pretty substantial for you.

8BitNinja
2016-03-23, 02:36 AM
Back in 1st edition AD&D, there were optional bonuses/penalties for each weapon when used against specific types of armor. Rolemaster and Spacemaster also had enormous tables for resolving stabs, blasts, whacks, and zaps according to armor type. These added a lot of complexity to the games, but didn't seem to be worth it for the extra fun they added.

With modern notepads and smartphones, you could probably integrate this into your game far better than those games managed, but the effort involved would probably be pretty substantial for you.

This is just an idea being tossed around, not something that has to be used