Need help making a character for a low magic game.

[Zellsantal]

Hello everyone, as the title states I am in need of some help making a character. But first let me explain the game I am in. I am in a low magic sand box game and my DM goes by the book on every little thing, also means if you die you are sent back a level. I started out as a rogue, though I was new to it and but I figure I give it a try and going for posion and alchemy skills. He end up dieing at level 3. From that point I tryed barbarian and then battle cleic with ordained champion and going bone knight, I had negative energy for the cleic. I tryed the battle cleic two times and both died, the last one was just last week. So now I am put back to level six. The others of my party have died at lest once though me and another party member died after facing twenty skeletons and an necromancer. It was a party of me and two others. Now I am working on my fith character, one is a ranger and the other player that died is working on making a fighter. We have no spell caster or healer other then what I was playing so I was thinking either trying battle cleic (again) or a mystic theurge build since we don't have any casters.

The rules he placed is this:
1. Class's from player handbook only
2. Most class variants and prestige class's are open.
3. Other then players handbook you can only get feats from one other book (tome of battle s out the question)
4. Stats are 15 ,15, 13, 13, 11, 11
5. Race's other then core my DM is picky, only a LA+1 or lower

Oh and did I forget to mention, I also have to look and learn for cleirc spells same as a wizard. So again I am in a sling of what I can do and I feel that if I die one or two more times I feel like giving up this campain. So I would like is tips and suggestions for anything that might help make things easier for me in a low magic game and the rules that is set.

Also a question if anyone could answer. If I were a cleric with positive energy is it true that I can't use any necromance spells or rather raise dead spells? The idea was I use some of the corpsecrafter feats. One feat I would want to use is the Destruction Retribution, my undead blow up and heal my other undead. Yea it might not be much but if I get a few skeletons and they get fireballed well that is exra damage right there. But what I am asking is that is there a rule stating that you have to be negative energy in order to use any necromancer spells as a cleric and if so where can I fine the rule to make sure it is in fact there.

[Gandariel]

Go druid.

There's some healing if you need it, but mostly, you're a strong spellcaster, with a strong animal companion and you can transform and fight melee.


If you want to have minions you can try some summoning feats (Greenbound /Ashbound summoning )

[Gildedragon]

No it isn't true.
As to what you could do: well, remember that lower level characters gain more XP. Stay at a distance from battle. Never split the party. At a couple levels behind the rest of the party you probably ought not be directly engaging in combat.
Since you have to research spells as a wizard maybe do wizard instead. There are a whole bunch of feats meant to boost spells known. (Elven generalist for example, or a shadow-working illusionist); research the healing spells independently.

[Hiro Quester]

Seconding Druid, depending on how "low-magic" applies. Spell casting is one of the best parts of Druid, but animal companion and wildshape would rock even if casting is limited to spells you learn like a wizard.

And no, if you are a good-aligned cleric (or Druid) you can use necromancy. But not spells with the evil descriptor.

E.g. There's a necromancy spell, Naturewatch, that enables a Druid to know about the condition of the plants around him (so he can keep the plants healthy). Necromancy, but not in any way evil.

[MisterKaws]

Seconding Wizards. Taking Collegiate Wizard from CArc would be a very smart move too, considering it has a lot of metamagic and stuff in it, so you get a solid feat book and a ton of spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Define "low magic," please. I'm guessing low-wealth. That's just a d-bag move for the martial types unless he really knows what he's doing. Guessing by the book restrictions, I doubt it.

Whether you channel positive or negative energy has no effect on what spells you can cast. It affects whether you spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells when you sac' spells you've prepared but that's it. It's your alignment and chosen deity (if any) that limits what spells you can cast. If you or your god is good, you can't cast spells with the evil descriptor. The same goes for each of the other alignments.

Sidenote; raise dead and its ilk are conjuration (healing) spells, not necromancy.

[Crake]

Define "low magic," please.

I've always taken low magic to mean low magic availability, so you can't just walk into town, stop by the wand shop to snag yourself a wand of lesser vigor, swing by the magic weapon shop to get yourself a new stack of various bane arrows, and then stop by the church, wait 5 minutes in line and get your friend resurrected by a casual 13th level cleric.

This isn't to say that the players won't loot magic items along the way, but rather that they'll generally be stuck with what they find and won't have much opportunity to get what they WANT, unless they're capable of crafting what they want.


Sidenote; raise dead and its ilk are conjuration (healing) spells, not necromancy.

Considering the context of the rest of his post, I assume he meant animate dead, not raise dead.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've always taken low magic to mean low magic availability, so you can't just walk into town, stop by the wand shop to snag yourself a wand of lesser vigor, swing by the magic weapon shop to get yourself a new stack of various bane arrows, and then stop by the church, wait 5 minutes in line and get your friend resurrected by a casual 13th level cleric.

This isn't to say that the players won't loot magic items along the way, but rather that they'll generally be stuck with what they find and won't have much opportunity to get what they WANT, unless they're capable of crafting what they want.

I've heard it as you've described, as items are generally unavailable even in dungeons, as casters having their spells limited or the classes themselves being restricted, and combinations of all of the above.

"Low-magic" isn't a universal term and needs clarification in these discussions until and unless the community comes to some kind of consensus (which we won't.)

[Zellsantal]

The best I can tell you is this, I get my first level spells but after that I need to buy or find my selfs. But then I have to make spellcraft cheak to see if I can even learn the spell, if fail I have to try again when I level up. Keeping gold seem to be hard because the fact we don't get that much or if we get about a few hundred here and there. We did got one magical item each with me getting a full plate armor that ables me to have stone skin once per day. However that character still died after have 90 points from the armor and 54 hp on my character with three out of twenty skeletons alone and they were doing two attacks each with flanking.

He says its low magic but I think he wants it that way so the party don't get over powered too quickly. I had a freind saying to try sorcerer which after looking at some things I might try that or the druid. However I don't know what my DM will do for the spells of those class's. He knows his books and thats why he place a restriction of how many can be used, again not to have over powerd characters. I will say I am not the best of players but still to go though four characters already and now on a fifth one and on top of that mince a level I am about thow in the towl if you know what I mean?

[Kelb_Panthera]

He can't know them that well or he'd know that the core casters are far and away the most powerful classes in the game and that not letting melee have basic gear nerfs them so far into the ground that they have no real chance of survival facing anything but themselves.

Seriously, compare a warmage, beguiler, or dread necromancer to what a skillfully run wizard can do. It's no contest. Then compare a 7th level barbarian with no gear to babau demon.

What you've described to me is a DM that's scared of PC power. He likely thinks that if the PC's get too powerful he won't be abe to keep control of the story. That's a problem in and of itself. If he wants to tell a story that the PC's are only along for the ride on, tell him to go write a book.

[Alex12]

Honestly, it sounds like your DM doesn't really know what he's doing. 3.5 is balanced around a certain expectation of magic availability, in terms of both spells and magic items. If he's reducing those below the wealth-by-level guidelines, then he has to reduce the CR of the enemies you're facing to compensate.

You say he's going "by the book" but he's making casters roll Spellcraft checks (what's the formula to figure out what the DC for a given spell is?) for spells and he's saying that Good clerics are barred from an entire school of magic (they are emphatically not). Neither of those things are by the book.

Also, do you know what kind of skeletons you guys were fighting? The numbers you gave don't seem to add up in a way that makes sense, unless the dice hate you. Does the DM roll openly, or in secret?

Also, you might try to discuss the issues you're having with the DM. And, if worst comes to worst, vote with your feet. No gaming is better than bad gaming, and most DMs don't have nearly that sort of attrition rate.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The spellcraft DC for trying to understand a spell is found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook), presuming the DM didn't change it.

If he's going to make you dig up spells like that, why not allow archivists? That's their native mechanic.

[JyP]

I see that most propositions above are about playing a spellcaster - in a low magic world...

From your list of previous characters, maybe you played front line fighters only for the time being ? As there will be a fighter and ranger now, which may take the brunt of the fight, maybe you could try fighting from afar, with a sniper build for example ?

[Zellsantal]

For spells he house ruled it that they need to be what I just told you even for cleics, however I am not sure for the other spell casting class's but I am sure they will be the same thing. He wants it that if I am to get a new spell I have to learn it and the only way to do that is though spellcraft (which is the same way that's on that link). Also only spells in players hand book while he could use spells from other books if he wish.

Skeletons, I don't know. It's how ever he made his necromancer. I know they had +3 or +4 damage with thier claw attacks on my character.

The battle went like this:
Me: 4lv. Cloistered Cleic, 1lv fighter, 2lv Ordained Champion
Party memeber 1: 6lv ranger
Party memeber 2: 7lv druid (he picked this shapeshifting variant which he could only change into a tiger and in doing this he gave up all his spells and compaion)

We started like about 90 feet (if I remember right) from the fort's gate and thats when the skeletons started coming out and six archers on the towers in font of the gate. The ranger did entangle on top of the skeletons on the first turn, I did sheild of fath and the druid shape change to the tiger. Tiger went in to attack, being he had more movement on me he was able to start at the ones that were on the edge of the entangle, however the the necromancer cast a spell on the druid (not sure which one) in which the druid failed the save and basely stunned and all I knew from what the DM said was the druid smells (again I don't know what spell it was), they were touch spells because from what the DM said about a moving hand came towards the druid I personaly new that was Specral Hand.

The ranger did what he could but seems his attacks didn't do much even with a magical bow. So he got his long sword out, however on the forth turn the necromancer casted bestow curse on him and have the 50% of doing nothing part on him so it mostly got him out of the fight right there leaving me to take on everything. The necromancer tryed two spells on me but I passed my checks. Both me and the druid were sirrounded and flanked by the skeletons, I was too far to do any healing though even if I did it would be free hits with 6 skeletons. The skeletons had two attacks each though they were missing me half the time because my AC was 23. The druid went down, however after about 5 rounds his character died, the ranger tryed to get over there but because of the curse and a few of the skeletons in the way he couldn't make it in time.

The ranger was able to quickly get the druids body and get out, I couldn't get out because I was sirrounded but I figure I could take them out. After about 5 crits that hit me and many rounds I was down and dead with a crit and with only 3 skeletons left standing. The plan was I kill the skeletons and then run back to heal, however I realized some of what I should have done.
1. I should have ran when I had the chance, still I thought I still hand a chance so I took it.
2. I did forget what feats I had because cleave was in my list and that alone would have helped.
3. I didn't do any other buffs which the DM told me, but again I wasn't sure what was going to happen on the second round and thought it was best I take down some of the threats before me.

I am only trying to find something that will work for me in this game of his though I will say if I die for a 5th time I am done with it. I am tired of taking time and effert in making characters that don't even go pass 10th level.

[ATHATH]

So, he gets to use any spells that he wants, and you're restricted to "just" core?

Have you considered playing a class that can mind-control your enemies? You could use the DM's own NPC's against him.

[Gildedragon]

That's kinda messed up. I'm getting a bad control vibe from the imbalance of spell sources.
Spellpool wizard might be good then.
Or give in to his nomagic idea and ask if you can play a binder or a warlock: they are significantly less magic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why didn't you turn? Skellies are really vulnerable to turning. If they were human skeletons you might even have dusted them immediately.

Yeah though. You definitely have a control-freak DM. It's pretty clear now.

I suspect that even if you did employ a powerful strategy that it would get nerfed or stonewalled.

May I suggest a goliath frenzied berserker. Take complete warrior for your extra book and pick up shock-trooper. Just wreck the crap out of anything you can reach. Goliath barbarian variant for mountain rage, a two level fighter dip for the bonus feats, then back to barb and into FB ASAP. I would normally advise caution with this class but to hell with it for these circumstances.

When he goes to nerf you, and he will, point out that his silly restrictions aren't an effective way to limit power. You were just smashing anything in your way with bare-bones basic mechanics with only a couple minor modifiers (heh, minor.)

He complains about the lack of control, point out that you could've taken righteous wrath from BoED and negated it.

He compains about damage output, point at the stone giant. How could you possibly compete with that if you weren't putting out that kind of damage?

His restrictions are worse than arbitrary because he's only applying them to your side of the screen. Get together with the other players and tell him that either the restrictions go to both sides of the screen, he relaxes them significantly, or you all walk. Being beaten with the nerf stick at every turn so that the DM doesn't lose control of his precious plot-line is very unfun.

[Zellsantal]

ATHATH- Don't think so, for the fact I still need to find, trade or buy spells. As of right now buying stuff like that is hard.

Guigarci- Hell I be more then happy to play a warlock but again I can only go with core class's as stated.

Kelb- From my understand I couldn't for the fact that I chosen negative energy and I was the cleric of Hextor. On race's he dosen't want anything that is higher stat of +2. Hell if I wanted to do something like that I would go half oger, if he let me.

In any case I thank you all for the input and I think I have something in mind. With any luck I will do better or give up on this game.

[Demidos]

It sounds like a decent fight --
20 skeletons and a necromancer where you got unlucky for both your druid and ranger going down, and you (mostly by yourself) managed to take down 17 skeletons?

Things to have considered --
On the player side--
You had both rebuke undead (as an evil cleric, you can take control of skeletons instead of destroy them), and cleave, which would have likely doubled your damage output.
If your ranger buddy and you had gone back to back next to the stunned tiger, you should have not been flanked by any of the skeletons.

On the DM's side, it sounds like he was using Greater Bestow Curse (the regular version only gives a 25% chance to lose actions, the greater version is an 8th level spell), and like he was using some strange spells (I can't think of any touch spells at the moment that stun and last longer than a single round).
Also, it sounds like his boss was a bit too tough -- given that the necromancer probably wasn't using any actions to control the undead or spell slots to keep them docile, they should really have been counted seperately into the CR. Given your average party level of (7+6+4/3=) 5.6, and given that he was casting even the lesser form of bestow curse (which is a 4th level spell), his boss was at least 7th level. Even with CR 1/2 skeletons, you should have been in an overwhelmingly difficult encounter. Add in the fact that the skeletons were somehow able to attack twice, and that was one tough encounter.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kelb- From my understand I couldn't for the fact that I chosen negative energy and I was the cleric of Hextor. On race's he dosen't want anything that is higher stat of +2. Hell if I wanted to do something like that I would go half oger, if he let me.

Oh for &%$@'s sake. :smallannoyed:

One of the only good reasons to ever eat a +1 LA is for better stats than any of the LA +0 races. As others pointed out, rebuke woudld've been nearly as effective as turning.

Forget this game. The DM's on a power trip. Unless you're a troll-y kind of guy, you can't really do anything when the DM is trying to win at D&D.

No gaming is better than bad gaming.

[Crake]

Oh for &%$@'s sake. :smallannoyed:

One of the only good reasons to ever eat a +1 LA is for better stats than any of the LA +0 races. As others pointed out, rebuke woudld've been nearly as effective as turning.

Forget this game. The DM's on a power trip. Unless you're a troll-y kind of guy, you can't really do anything when the DM is trying to win at D&D.

No gaming is better than bad gaming.

Or just get the shadow template, it has little to no ability adjustments, and your DM will be hard pressed to ever have enemies able to see you :smalltongue: