Slaughterhouse 9 VS Justice League

[AvatarVecna]

Another thread recently started which pitted Batman against one of the most powerful Thinkers in the Wormverse (as well as Accord); while the general conclusion is that Contessa could stomp Batman, that's not really saying much, since Contessa's power is literally "I know how to win and can perform the winning path perfectly". No, if we're going to pit Batman against a powerful Wormverse Thinker, let's have it a bit more on -the-level...and let's add some extra scenarios, just to keep things interesting in case some turn out to be more boring than I thought. I'm setting these fights in the DC-verse to force the confrontation to occur.

Scenario 1: Jack Slash vs Batman, both loose in Gotham, no other heroes/villains involved. It's worth mentioning that, beyond his personal powers, Jack also has (IIRC) a body that's essentially been modded to hell and back by Bonesaw.

Scenario 2: Siberian vs Superman, both loose in Metropolis, no other heroes/villains involved.

Scenario 3: Slaughterhouse 9 (Jack Slash, Bonesaw, Siberian, Crawler, Shatterbird, Mannequin, Cherish, Burnscar) vs Justice League (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Martian Manhunter, Hawkwoman), loose in DC-verse; other heroes/villains present, but generally don't get involved (or get crushed if they do).

I'm curious to see what people think about this.

[Chives]

Batman takes Jack. Jack's broadcaster power requires the person he's fighting to have a shard in order to win and none of the JL are sharded.

I'd say Superman would beat Siberian too, considering how fragile Manton is, but that one runs the very real possibility of a loss. If Clark charges in and tries to fight in melee then Siberian will bisect him. If he hangs back for a second and tries heat vision he's got a very good chance of figuring out Siberian's trick. Apparently Superman hanging back and scanning before going into fights is canon, he'd definitely find Manton.


The third one's no contest. Characters like Martian Manhunter are absolutely broken and can drop the S9 without actually needing to be anywhere near them. Cherish is a serious threat, but if she tries to grab anyone the speedsters will notice and stop her.

https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/2sju2u/the_endbringers_worm_vs_the_justice_league/

[Kantaki]

Batman vs. Jack:
I think Batman might win this if he survives the initial engagement.
Jack's greatest strength is his ability to mess with other parahumans' heads. Since Batman is (supposed to be) a normal all that's left is the "cut people at sniper range" aspect of his power and the effectiveness of that depends on his weapon. With a regular knife he shouldn't bother Batman to much, but if he has a tinker-made weapon (like the sword in his last battle) that might look differently. I still think Batman would beat him. Usually he seems pretty good at the whole "not getting hit then and he has a suit for almost any situation. The only question is how much damage Jack does until then.

Superman vs. Siberian:
If he finds Manton fast enough Superman wins without any problem. Unfortunatly the Siberian projection will do her(?) best to prevent this either by attacking him or by forcing him to engage her and I'm not sure if Supes can do much against her specific type of unvulnerability/superstrenght. The last time someone "invulnerable" got hit by her Alexandria lost a eye. Superman should be higher on the "can't hurt me" scale, but I'm not sure it is enough. In a direct fight one hit might be enough to take the boyscout out. But unless he acts really stupid Superman can win this. The main problem would be the Siberians catch, but I think Superman would notice the one guy doesn't flee the bloodthirsty tigerwoman sooner or later.
(For fairness sake I assume the Siberian doesn't carry Manton around)

S9 vs. JL:
That one heavily depends on the prep-time and the Goal (Recruiting their ninth?) the nine have. Ultimatly the League would most likely beat them, but I'm not sure who ould "win".
The main problem would be that The League members can counter most of the nine, but most likely not if they split up and attack multiple location's at the same time. Sure, Supes/Wonderwoman might be able to take the Siberian and Crawler, but that leaves the less invulnerable members to deal with whatever Bonesaw and Mannequin cooked up or with a attack from Burnscar.
Add to that Jack's secondary power to get into the head of other supers and he might be able to set things up in a way that leaves some heroes dead. I doubt Martian Manhunter would do very well against Burnscar once she gets started. Especially if it comes unexpected.
MM is a Telepath, right? That might help against this, but considering the Nine found a way to stop Cherish from manipulating them it is possible telepathy is useless-ish.
Speaking of Cherish, depending how things go she might be able to do some damage as well or at least set things up. Finding and manipulating people with their emotions should help at least against some League-members.
Crawler certainly would trouble the League a while with his specific form of regeneration and the abilities it grants him. Sure, Superman might be able to throw him into space, but if a squishier hero meets him first they end up like Glory Girl (minus Panacaea's help).
I think the League might be able to beat the Nine, but they will loose (some of) their squishier members. And I'm not sure the others would remain unscarred. Jack would still laugh last.

[ben-zayb]

What are the slaughterhouse members speed feats and reaction time? I ask because this could once again come down to ridiculous rocket tag especially with one side having a member that can do trillion times FTL.

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, so it looks like the general consensus (if we can call two people having opinions I agree with a consensus) that the answers are "Batman, because he gets around Jack's normal tricks for winning" and "Superman, if he somehow figures out the one weakness the Siberian has", which are both pretty valid arguments.


What are the slaughterhouse members speed feats and reaction time? I ask because this could once again come down to ridiculous rocket tag especially with one side having a member that can do trillion times FTL.

Jack is literally precognitive in regards to capes, although that's in regards to shard capes, which the League probably doesn't count as. Even if we extrapolate his abilities to affect capes in general, though, he's still not at levels where he could react in time to Superman going full speed, let alone Flash. Siberian might be able to match either of those two for speed, since she's a physics-ignoring thought construct, but since she never goes toe-to-toe with a high-rank Mover, let alone one on the level of Superman/Flash, we don't know how fast she can go when Manton's actually going for maximum speed/reaction. Crawler might be able to evolve adaptionally to the point of having ridiculous reflexes (and probably already has in canon), but I doubt it'd be to the level necessary to react to Supers/Flash going full speed mode.

It's worth mentioning, though, that neither Superman nor Flash really go full-speed-mode except on a couple very rare occasions: Flash has gone full speedster a couple times in the animated shows I've watched, but most of those were against other super-speedsters on his level, like the mirror-Flash in "The Batman" or Zoom; the only time I've seen Flash go full speed against a non-speedster, he nearly killed himself to win the fight, and he mopped the floor with a guy who had just curbstomped the rest of the JL. The only Superman speed feat I know of that's comparable to Flash's BS is the point where he flew around the Earth so fast, he catapulted himself back in time (and a lot of people thought that was a ridiculous low-point in Superman's career). Meanwhile, both Flash and Superman manage to get snuck up on and surprised by some pretty flimsy opponents; hell, one of the member's of Flash's rogue gallery is Captain Boomerang. Despite the obvious mismatch in pitting a man who can outrun light against a guy who's weapon of choice is a piece of wood designed to be thrown at low speeds, he has actually managed to somehow get the drop on Flash at least a couple times in the cartoon alone.

But that doesn't really speak to CB's reflexes as much as it speaks to Flash's obliviousness, and Flash's ability to notice danger is what's going to get him killed in this fight, if the either Jack or the Siberian can surprise him even once.

[Leewei]

Mind you, this all leads to the question of Skitter vs the JL.

[AvatarVecna]

Mind you, this all leads to the question of Skitter vs the JL.

I'm pretty sure that goes very heavily JL; there's actually a fanfiction that starts with Skitter vs JL, each assuming the other will try to kill them, and JL captures her pretty quickly (although not without nearly losing some members themselves).

Undersiders vs JL is only slightly more interesting; Imp's Stranger power is mind-based, which might mean Superman, Martian Manhunter, and possibly Batman (depending on interpretation) could have some measure of resistance. Lisa could probably reduce Batman to a shell of a man, but maybe not before Wonder Woman broke her jaw?

[Kantaki]

I'm pretty sure that goes very heavily JL; there's actually a fanfiction that starts with Skitter vs JL, each assuming the other will try to kill them, and JL captures her pretty quickly (although not without nearly losing some members themselves).

Undersiders vs JL is only slightly more interesting; Imp's Stranger power is mind-based, which might mean Superman, Martian Manhunter, and possibly Batman (depending on interpretation) could have some measure of resistance. Lisa could probably reduce Batman to a shell of a man, but maybe not before Wonder Woman broke her jaw?

Didn't we have a tread like that a while ago?
Undersiders vs. Gotham I think. Was mostly about Batman and Gotham’s underworld obviously.
Forget the fight, the potential interactions alone would be absolutely worth it.
Imp and Regent talking with some of the younger and/or sillier League members could be hilarious. Especially if the „grown ups” try to negotiate at the same time.
My favorite idea from the other thread was Skitter training and/or working with Batman.

But in a straight fight the Undersiders would loose. They would go down fighting and most likely do some damage, but they would loose.
I mean we are talking about a superteam with several members that are individually as strong, or stronger, as the Triumvirate. The Undersiders can’t take a member of the Triumvirate, much less the whole Justice League.
Hit and run (emphasis on run) tactics might work a while, but even then I don't see them winning.
They might get away with the kind of stuff they pulled in Brockton Bay*, but even there I'm not sure it would last - especially since they lack their mysterious backer’s support.

*robbing banks, not taking over cities.

[Eldan]

Are we talking Undersiders with or without Coil?

[AvatarVecna]

Are we talking Undersiders with or without Coil?

Undersiders with Coil don't fight the Justice League, because in that timeline they get curbstomped by Superman (and maybe his work buddies who decide to help out for ****s and giggles), and then Martian Manhunter figures out about Coil, Batman finds wherever Coil's hiding, and Superman tears into whatever abandoned Endbringer shelter Coil's using for a lair.

Because recruiting precocious teenagers at gunpoint only works until they can squeal on you to a dude who can wrestle Endbringers and another dude that people even considered could out-think Contessa.

[Leewei]

The Undersiders can’t take a member of the Triumvirate, much less the whole Justice League.

As I recall, Alexandria didn't fare so well, and she's a close analog to Superman. This goes into rocket tag territory pretty fast. Superman could find and subdue Skitter very fast, but Skitter, and more generally the Undersiders, have a history of fighting dirty. Kryptonite dispersed within an insect swarm could tip the scales a lot. Knowing Superman's weakness isn't much of a stretch when you have Tattletale.

[Kantaki]

As I recall, Alexandria didn't fare so well, and she's a close analog to Superman. This goes into rocket tag territory pretty fast. Superman could find and subdue Skitter very fast, but Skitter, and more generally the Undersiders, have a history of fighting dirty. Kryptonite dispersed within an insect swarm could tip the scales a lot. Knowing Superman's weakness isn't much of a stretch when you have Tattletale.

Sure, Skitter managed to take out Alexandria, but I wouldn't call that a straight fight.:smalltongue:
Not that this distinction is that important. The Undersiders usually don't do "straight fights" if they can avoid them. And when they get the opportunity to play dirty there is a good chance that they can really hurt the League's ego.

But I don't think they could beat the League. Getting away after a bank robbery? Sure. Pulling something like the attack on that party or the infiltration of the Wards' HQ? If they plan it right it has a chance to work.
They might even be able to take out some of them with enough planning and preparation. But all of them?
Well, depending on the way the various powers interact it might work.
Give Imp a kryptonite knife and she could be devastating. Skitter's usual tactics should work on the more vulnerable League members and the way she took out Alexandria might work on some of the bricks - especially if they can weaken Superman. Grue can at least hinder the heroes and could be able to copy some powers. Anything else would depend on what powers he can copy.
Regent would at least be a distraction and could be devastating if he can use his main power.
Considering how her power works Foil would be deadly, simply because the bricks might try to tank her darts.
Tattletale... well she could work out their opponents' weakpoints and if she gets a chance to talk:smalleek: some heroes (Batman) would be wrecks before the battle even starts.
Parian and Rachel... I'm not sure, but at very least they could provide distractions and, more importantly, mobility.

[Forum Explorer]

Sure, Skitter managed to take out Alexandria, but I wouldn't call that a straight fight.:smalltongue:
Not that this distinction is that important. The Undersiders usually don't do "straight fights" if they can avoid them. And when they get the opportunity to play dirty there is a good chance that they can really hurt the League's ego.

But I don't think they could beat the League. Getting away after a bank robbery? Sure. Pulling something like the attack on that party or the infiltration of the Wards' HQ? If they plan it right it has a chance to work.
They might even be able to take out some of them with enough planning and preparation. But all of them?
Well, depending on the way the various powers interact it might work.
Give Imp a kryptonite knife and she could be devastating. Skitter's usual tactics should work on the more vulnerable League members and the way she took out Alexandria might work on some of the bricks - especially if they can weaken Superman. Grue can at least hinder the heroes and could be able to copy some powers. Anything else would depend on what powers he can copy.
Regent would at least be a distraction and could be devastating if he can use his main power.
Considering how her power works Foil would be deadly, simply because the bricks might try to tank her darts.
Tattletale... well she could work out their opponents' weakpoints and if she gets a chance to talk:smalleek: some heroes (Batman) would be wrecks before the battle even starts.
Parian and Rachel... I'm not sure, but at very least they could provide distractions and, more importantly, mobility.

Skitter was a big factor in taking out Dopple!Edeilon as well.

Though I think another big factor, is that the Undersiders wouldn't be taking all the full power of the Justice League. That's reserved for alien invasions and end of the world crap. The Undersiders are quasi-benevolent gangsters. They'd get like, one or two of the A-listers maybe, and then a slow ramp up that'd never really hit full power. Also I imagine most of the Justice League might feel awkward beating up teenagers. :smallamused:

[AvatarVecna]

As I recall, Alexandria didn't fare so well, and she's a close analog to Superman. This goes into rocket tag territory pretty fast. Superman could find and subdue Skitter very fast, but Skitter, and more generally the Undersiders, have a history of fighting dirty. Kryptonite dispersed within an insect swarm could tip the scales a lot. Knowing Superman's weakness isn't much of a stretch when you have Tattletale.

Knowing Superman's weakness isn't the issue (especially with Tattletale on the case); the problem is getting their hands on Kryptonite quickly enough to cause Supes a problem. As for the Alexandria comparison, it's worth mentioning that the way Skitter took down Alexandria was by targeting the one part of her human anatomy that still functioned normally: her need to breath. Granted, Superman still needs to breath as well (I think), but his lungs, diaphragm, and esophagus have a little more power to them than Alexandria's do. Most of the swarm can get literally blown away by a well-timed sneeze, and a nice deep breath with make the air pressure in Superman's lungs equivalent to the kind of heat and pressure levels you might find at the Earth's core.

The Undersiders still have to deal with all of Batman's tricks, Wonder Woman's unique blend of Superman and Batman, Green Lantern basically being invulnerable to anything they can do (and busting out more tricks than Eidolon), Flash tying them all up at somewhere around .1c, and Martian Manhunter no-selling Imp, Regent, and Tattletale by just existing; of the lot of the Undersiders, the only one that might be able to hurt the tougher members is Foil (if this is the point where she's with them), and the only one that might be able to stay undetected is Imp (depending on how her "force people to constantly forget her" power interacts with the Martian Manhunter's telepathy, Superman's mental fortitude, or Batman's BS "picked it up from a Tibetan Monk" mind-protecting tricks).

[Kantaki]

Would Martian Manhunter no sell Imp, Regent and Tattletale?

Sure, he would detect Imp’s presence, but I'm not sure he would remember it. Is there a precedence for non-humans sensing her? I know Tt can, but I think that was because of her power allowing her to jump to conclusions.

Tattletale’s power is (more of less) to „know” things. And I just remembered that Thinkers interfere with eachothers abilities to a degree, but A) I'm not entirely sure how much (wasn’t that mostly a problem for precogs?) and B) Assuming power transparency it would work the other way around as well.

Regent controls his victims’ bodies not their minds, but I think he is the most likely to be noticed simply because their reactions to this should be noticeable.
I guess that means he is limited to making people stumble in this scenario.

[Rakaydos]

In a wormversse crossover, I dont really think it's fair to say batman has no powers. DC doesnt consder what he has to be a power, because it's not flashy, but I'd certianly give him a Thinker classification, and Alfred a Tinker classification to provide him with gear.

[AvatarVecna]

Would Martian Manhunter no sell Imp, Regent and Tattletale?

Sure, he would detect Imp’s presence, but I'm not sure he would remember it. Is there a precedence for non-humans sensing her? I know Tt can, but I think that was because of her power allowing her to jump to conclusions.

Tattletale’s power is (more of less) to „know” things. And I just remembered that Thinkers interfere with eachothers abilities to a degree, but A) I'm not entirely sure how much (wasn’t that mostly a problem for precogs?) and B) Assuming power transparency it would work the other way around as well.

Regent controls his victims’ bodies not their minds, but I think he is the most likely to be noticed simply because their reactions to this should be noticeable.
I guess that means he is limited to making people stumble in this scenario.

Imp's power affects memory, and capes with an immunity to memory alteration already exist as a precedent (Miss Militia, IIRC); it's likely (or at least a possibility worth considering) that the Martian Manhunter's memories are not as mutable as most people's.

Tattletale's power works off microexpressions, body-reading, super-deduction, and super-inference; between the Martian Manhunter's generally non-human biology, his specific shapeshifting abilities, and his mind-reading ability, he will (at the very least) serve as a source of interference if Tats tries to read him. It's unlikely to result in "no information gained", but it won't be as effective as normal.

Regent's power works by affecting the nervous system and Regent's understanding of how the body is supposed to be able to twitch/move/whatever, and it's confirmed to not work on non-human biologicals very well (and in extreme cases, not work at all). Whether you think the shape-shifting Martian Manhunter has a nervous system and body structure similar enough to humans for Regent to have any idea what he's doing is...well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Mind you, the Martian doesn't really directly stop these people from affecting the other JL members, but it's pretty debatable that half the main Undersiders can't affect him at all, or at least affect him far less than normal.

[Kantaki]

Imp's power affects memory, and capes with an immunity to memory alteration already exist as a precedent (Miss Militia, IIRC); it's likely (or at least a possibility worth considering) that the Martian Manhunter's memories are not as mutable as most people's.

Tattletale's power works off microexpressions, body-reading, super-deduction, and super-inference; between the Martian Manhunter's generally non-human biology, his specific shapeshifting abilities, and his mind-reading ability, he will (at the very least) serve as a source of interference if Tats tries to read him. It's unlikely to result in "no information gained", but it won't be as effective as normal.

Regent's power works by affecting the nervous system and Regent's understanding of how the body is supposed to be able to twitch/move/whatever, and it's confirmed to not work on non-human biologicals very well (and in extreme cases, not work at all). Whether you think the shape-shifting Martian Manhunter has a nervous system and body structure similar enough to humans for Regent to have any idea what he's doing is...well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Mind you, the Martian doesn't really directly stop these people from affecting the other JL members, but it's pretty debatable that half the main Undersiders can't affect him at all, or at least affect him far less than normal.

Ah, okay. I was thinking more along the lines of how he could interfere with their activities by noticing what they do/ blocking the general use of Tt’s power, not how that would affect a direct confrontation.
Especially with Regent. I didn't even consider if his powers work on Manhunter, just the latter would notice it if he controls others.

But didn't Tattletale get a pretty good read on the endbringers?
I'm not saying she would get as much about MM as she would about normal humans*, but I think she would get enough to work with. And a killer-migraine of course.

*and Superman maybe. I would call him less alien/different from humans than MM. (For the purpose of TT’s power at least. Her head might still hurt after trying to get a read on him, but less than in the Martian’s case)

[AvatarVecna]

Ah, okay. I was thinking more along the lines of how he could interfere with their activities by noticing what they do/ blocking the general use of Tt’s power, not how that would affect a direct confrontation.
Especially with Regent. I didn't even consider if his powers work on Manhunter, just the latter would notice it if he controls others.

But didn't Tattletale get a pretty good read on the endbringers?
I'm not saying she would get as much about MM as she would about normal humans*, but I think she would get enough to work with. And a killer-migraine of course.

*and Superman maybe. I would call him less alien/different from humans than MM. (For the purpose of TT’s power at least. Her head might still hurt after trying to get a read on him, but less than in the Martian’s case)

Tattletale's ability, and particularly the specifics of how it functions, aren't clarified IIRC. My general assumption is that it's one part mind-reading and one part super-body-reading, but if the exact mechanics of it have been clarified I'm not aware. If her power requires actually getting into her target's head, both MM and Supes will give her some issues (he's pretty strong-willed), but if it's purely body-reading, she should be able to read Superman well enough (and maybe MM too, but not quite as well because his thought processes and body language are more distant from human body language).

Honestly, I haven't thought much on what the JL would notice if the US used their powers on other members. Batman would probably be savvy enough to notice, and Superman's got his suite of super-senses to help out, and MM is psychic, but the others? *shrug*

My headfanon would be that, if the Undersiders and the JL were thrust into a city to fight each other, the US would fight a retreat (possibly with injury/losses) to somewhere where they can gather information, possibly by Skitter distracting them by basically calling down a plague of bugs on every citizen nearby to draw their attention. The next confrontation, the US have a much better idea of what the JL is capable of, thanks to Tats, and they go in with a plan...which, unless Foil gets a good shot on Supes or the US find some Kryptonite, is probably going to fail, but they manage to escape. The third confrontation, Batman (and possibly Wonder Woman) have seen the US fight enough times to get a good idea of their capabilities, and this time we get to see a Skitter/Tattletale plan go head-to-head with a Batman plan...and I'm pretty sure I know who's going to win the "who's the better tactician".

Of course, if Batman gets taken out of the picture in the first fight, the US have a much better chance later on, but their inability to take out Superman (or for Imp to sneak past him, given his mental fortitude) is going to be a big issue. How would they take out Batman, though? That's a bit easier a question to answer, but it's not through any kind of direct confrontation: some people say Batman has some mental issues, but only Tattletale will have any idea that he's actually got a straight-up subscription to "Am I Insane?" magazine, and she would be able to push all of his buttons like a 50's secretary with a typewriter.

[Kantaki]

If I recall correctly Tattletale’s power basically lets her put information together from any amount of hints - stuff like analysing Skitter on their first meeting just from her (re)actions or cracking a code without the work you usually have to put in it, guessing your password just from the stuff you decorate your workplace with or making a educated guess about endbringers. Even better/worse her power fills the holes for her so once she gets going it provides her with more and more information- within limits obviously. Using it too long or trying to get too much information out of nothing gives her a migraine.
But I'm absolutely certain that she can't read minds - the only telepath in the Worm-verse is still the Smurf.

[BlueHerring]

If I recall correctly Tattletale’s power basically lets her put information together from any amount of hints - stuff like analysing Skitter on their first meeting just from her (re)actions or cracking a code without the work you usually have to put in it, guessing your password just from the stuff you decorate your workplace with or making a educated guess about endbringers. Even better/worse her power fills the holes for her so once she gets going it provides her with more and more information- within limits obviously. Using it too long or trying to get too much information out of nothing gives her a migraine.
But I'm absolutely certain that she can't read minds - the only telepath in the Worm-verse is still the Smurf.

There's also the tremendous issue of Tattletale tunnel-visioning with her power, which has actually been established as something that can happen.

[Leewei]

In a wormversse crossover, I dont really think it's fair to say batman has no powers. DC doesnt consder what he has to be a power, because it's not flashy, but I'd certianly give him a Thinker classification, and Alfred a Tinker classification to provide him with gear.

World's Greatest Detective, not to mention flawless martial artist and gymnast. Yeah, Batman would get a Thinker classification.

This also brings up a different question. Are the Justice League members shard capes? In DC canon, they certainly are not, but in a Worm crossover, the implication would be that their powers actually were somehow common in origin. Any reality intersecting with the various Earths in Worm would be reachable to those alien gods. In such a case, even Batman could have a shard which triggered upon the deaths of his parents.

[Forum Explorer]

Would Martian Manhunter no sell Imp, Regent and Tattletale?

Sure, he would detect Imp’s presence, but I'm not sure he would remember it. Is there a precedence for non-humans sensing her? I know Tt can, but I think that was because of her power allowing her to jump to conclusions.

Tattletale’s power is (more of less) to „know” things. And I just remembered that Thinkers interfere with eachothers abilities to a degree, but A) I'm not entirely sure how much (wasn’t that mostly a problem for precogs?) and B) Assuming power transparency it would work the other way around as well.

Regent controls his victims’ bodies not their minds, but I think he is the most likely to be noticed simply because their reactions to this should be noticeable.
I guess that means he is limited to making people stumble in this scenario.

Dragon could remember/track Imp, though she was never there 'in person' so to say.

I think Skitter+Tattletale are much better on the fly strategists then Batmen. They are constantly adapting and pulling out new tactics as things go wrong, ect. Though Skitter is hardly a slouch when it comes to planning either. I guess the big thing for them would be not fighting the entire Justice League at the same time. Foil is very much their trump card considering her abilities can even do serious damage to Scion and Grey Boy (who are otherwise nigh invincible). If Supes tries to tank one of her attacks, he very well might just flat out die.

Anyways, going back to the SH9, I think they wouldn't do all that bad either. See, they don't need to hold back at all, and I know Supes is effected by mind control spores, so they could do that same miasma trick they pulled before to disrupt the JL, and then try and pick them off one by one. Siberian I think would be able to cut through Supes invincibility, and thus the rest of them. MM would be a fight for Burnscar, and that is not a good match up for him. Bats and the Flash I think would be the biggest problems for the SH9, but I don't think the Flash can permanently do anything to Crawler, But I don't think the SH9 have a tactic that would put him down, other then trying to infect with a plague and hoping that kills him.

[Dragonus45]

I don't think the Flash can permanently do anything to Crawler

I just had a funny thought, "Hey Crawler, stand still for a second if you want to see if you can survive a punch at relativistic speeds." I think we all know he would totally stand still for that.

[Chives]

World's Greatest Detective, not to mention flawless martial artist and gymnast. Yeah, Batman would get a Thinker classification.

This also brings up a different question. Are the Justice League members shard capes? In DC canon, they certainly are not, but in a Worm crossover, the implication would be that their powers actually were somehow common in origin. Any reality intersecting with the various Earths in Worm would be reachable to those alien gods. In such a case, even Batman could have a shard which triggered upon the deaths of his parents.

All Wildbow's stories so far take place in a shared universe which gives us a handful of ways to get power there besides gaining a shard. For example, Myrddin could be a wizard from Pact who slipped through the cracks and ended up in Worm.

Also for Imp, 90% sure Behemoth could see her so there's some kind of rule regulating who can see her and who can't.

[Forum Explorer]

I just had a funny thought, "Hey Crawler, stand still for a second if you want to see if you can survive a punch at relativistic speeds." I think we all know he would totally stand still for that.

Can the Flash survive dishing out a punch at that speeds? He has some rather silly feats (in the sense that they don't make sense), but I don't know of any feats where he dishes out super strength punches.

I can certainly say that Crawler seems a lot more dangerous then most of the Flash's villains, excepting Captain Cold.

[AvatarVecna]

Can the Flash survive dishing out a punch at that speeds? He has some rather silly feats (in the sense that they don't make sense), but I don't know of any feats where he dishes out super strength punches.

I can certainly say that Crawler seems a lot more dangerous then most of the Flash's villains, excepting Captain Cold.

Well, there's that time in JLU where Braniac!Luthor faced off against the Justice League and wiped the floor with them, and then Flash wiped the floor with him: Flash basically ran all the way around the world several times, slamming into Braniac!Luthor every time he went by. On the last pass, Flash had knocked him to the ground and began punching him at a rate of N punches per second, where N is a number high enough that the power Flash was putting off caused a huge explosion. Flash nearly died...but his near-death was a consequence of going so fast for so long, not from slamming into something at relativistic speeds or the explosion his super-fast-punching caused.

A link, for your viewing pleasure. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53OyPYa7SEI)

EDIT: In a certain sense, the question becomes "Can Flash punch Crawler's flesh away faster than Crawler's regeneration can regenerate his flesh?" Generally speaking, in a contest of speed, my money is on the Flash.

EDIT 2: Crawler's full regenerative capabilities were described by Jack at one point in canon as being able to regenerate hundreds of pounds of flesh in a heartbeat (or something similar). It's quite an impressive regeneration rate, whatever it is, but it just doesn't heal fast enough to race the Flash's fists.

[Dragonus45]

All Wildbow's stories so far take place in a shared universe which gives us a handful of ways to get power there besides gaining a shard. For example, Myrddin could be a wizard from Pact who slipped through the cracks and ended up in Worm.

Also for Imp, 90% sure Behemoth could see her so there's some kind of rule regulating who can see her and who can't.

Well that's actually the heart of my theory that magic does really exist in the wormverse, its just that the Worms learned it from a species they passed by and its all mixed up with the other stuff they have. Also its the reason I think that Smurf could learn magic from someones mind the same way that she can learn tech. Also I'm fairly certain that Behemoth and the other endbringers being able to sense her might have been an effect of how they all view the world with deranged senses. Either that or a programmed in immunity attached to one or the other shards.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, there's that time in JLU where Braniac!Luthor faced off against the Justice League and wiped the floor with them, and then Flash wiped the floor with him: Flash basically ran all the way around the world several times, slamming into Braniac!Luthor every time he went by. On the last pass, Flash had knocked him to the ground and began punching him at a rate of N punches per second, where N is a number high enough that the power Flash was putting off caused a huge explosion. Flash nearly died...but his near-death was a consequence of going so fast for so long, not from slamming into something at relativistic speeds or the explosion his super-fast-punching caused.

A link, for your viewing pleasure. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53OyPYa7SEI)

EDIT: In a certain sense, the question becomes "Can Flash punch Crawler's flesh away faster than Crawler's regeneration can regenerate his flesh?" Generally speaking, in a contest of speed, my money is on the Flash.

EDIT 2: Crawler's full regenerative capabilities were described by Jack at one point in canon as being able to regenerate hundreds of pounds of flesh in a heartbeat (or something similar). It's quite an impressive regeneration rate, whatever it is, but it just doesn't heal fast enough to race the Flash's fists.


I don't know, I mean, as impressive as that clip was it did put two things in where that's basically a kamikaze move on the Flash's part, and the explosion wasn't all the massive. Plus Crawler already has defenses like acid blood in place, so the Flash might not be able to destroy Crawler without killing himself.

Also Crawler's regeneration does make him tougher as it does, to the point of becoming able to resist nanomolecular blades. So yeah, I think I'd actually put my money on Crawler being able to survive the Flash long enough to basically become immune to him. (If he started with that full speed suicidal attack, sure, but I don't think that's generally a rational play to make)

[AvatarVecna]

I don't know, I mean, as impressive as that clip was it did put two things in where that's basically a kamikaze move on the Flash's part, and the explosion wasn't all the massive. Plus Crawler already has defenses like acid blood in place, so the Flash might not be able to destroy Crawler without killing himself.

Also Crawler's regeneration does make him tougher as it does, to the point of becoming able to resist nanomolecular blades. So yeah, I think I'd actually put my money on Crawler being able to survive the Flash long enough to basically become immune to him. (If he started with that full speed suicidal attack, sure, but I don't think that's generally a rational play to make)

That's certainly fair, Crawler does have other defenses. Still, there's other League members that have beyond-human durability; I'm sure Wonder Woman is a lot tougher than Glory Girl, as an example, so she wouldn't get stomped as hard by Crawler, and could probably deal some pretty good blows herself...but I think it would come down to Superman basically either throwing him into orbit or melting his entire body down with some speed-of-light full-body laser eye surgery.

Here's an interesting thing that just occurred to me: the Siberian is a mental projection, essentially held in place by force of will...likely, in a manner extremely similar to how the Lantern rings function. Maybe instead of Superman fighting the Siberian, Green Lantern could do it? I'm not sure, the Siberian's got some pretty BS abilities...

[Forum Explorer]

That's certainly fair, Crawler does have other defenses. Still, there's other League members that have beyond-human durability; I'm sure Wonder Woman is a lot tougher than Glory Girl, as an example, so she wouldn't get stomped as hard by Crawler, and could probably deal some pretty good blows herself...but I think it would come down to Superman basically either throwing him into orbit or melting his entire body down with some speed-of-light full-body laser eye surgery.

Here's an interesting thing that just occurred to me: the Siberian is a mental projection, essentially held in place by force of will...likely, in a manner extremely similar to how the Lantern rings function. Maybe instead of Superman fighting the Siberian, Green Lantern could do it? I'm not sure, the Siberian's got some pretty BS abilities...

I think Crawler would actually survive space, though it would certainly take him out of the fight. And yeah, if the JL gets a straight up fight between all of their members vs the SH9, then it's an easy win for the JL.

I think the only chance the SH9 have is to do that same miasma attack (or some other bio-plague) they used against Brockton Bay, but do it first instead of waiting til they are all whittled down. Then once the JL is split up and confused from the Miasma (Though I'm betting that Batman and MM would be able to flat out beat it like Tattletale did), they can pick and choose their fights to set things up so that the JL can't match their members to opponents they can easily beat.

As for Green Lantern vs the Siberian, I have no idea. I don't think even Sion could do anything to the Siberian beyond removing the guy creating it.

[GloatingSwine]

Can the Flash survive dishing out a punch at that speeds? He has some rather silly feats (in the sense that they don't make sense), but I don't know of any feats where he dishes out super strength punches.


Yes, trivially. The Speed Force basically renders a Flash totally immune to any consequences of the speeds he moves at, as well as allowing him to negate any side effects of moving that fast. In the comics punching people at lightspeed is quite easy for him.

Y'see, there's only one DC hero whose villains have gotten organised, The Flash, and the core tenet of their organisation is "do not piss the Flash off too much". The Rogues keep themselves deliberately under the radar because they know how screwed they'd be if Flash had real cause to try and stop them.

If he's really trying, nobody can touch him, he just phases through solid objects (and even some spiritual entities) punches with the mass of a white dwarf star, can subtract all speed from other entities trapping them in stasis, can travel through time, can travel outside of the concept of time, and into alternate dimensions, all pretty much at will.

Whilst it's easy to write Flash off as "runs fast, no other special features", he's actually one of the most powerful DC heroes.

[Dragonus45]

This is more of a side discussion, but if you throw crawler into space and he winds up stuck on a deserted planet with only Doomsday for company how long does it take for the unholy spawn that results from that fight to conquer the universe.

[AvatarVecna]

This is more of a side discussion, but if you throw crawler into space and he winds up stuck on a deserted planet with only Doomsday for company how long does it take for the unholy spawn that results from that fight to conquer the universe.

Nah, it would never get far enough for them to reboot the universe; Superman would just reboot the universe by punching it in the face again.

[Dragonus45]

Nah, it would never get far enough for them to reboot the universe; Superman would just reboot the universe by punching it in the face again.

That might work, unless the surviving being became immune to dimensional fissures and other manipulations at some point during The Battle

[AvatarVecna]

That might work, unless the surviving being became immune to dimensional fissures and other manipulations at some point during The Battle

If either Crawler of Doomsday could develop an immunity to Deus Ex Machina, they would've done so by now. :smallbiggrin:

[Sapphire Guard]

WW, Superman, and MM would probably not be shards as they were never human.

Crawler can lose to an airstrike, which the League is capable of doing, except that they wouldn't want to kill him

I don't think Superman needs to breathe (although he can), we see him fly around in orbit a lot.

[Rakaydos]

WW, Superman, and MM would probably not be shards as they were never human.

Crawler can lose to an airstrike, which the League is capable of doing, except that they wouldn't want to kill him

I don't think Superman needs to breathe (although he can), we see him fly around in orbit a lot.

Crawler is immune to conventional munitions. It's the UNCONVENTIONAL ones that did him in.

As for Inhuman shards, tell that to Dragon.

[AvatarVecna]

Crawler is immune to conventional munitions. It's the UNCONVENTIONAL ones that did him in.

As for Inhuman shards, tell that to Dragon.

Not to mention whatever species the entities have previously done in.

Speaking of, given that the Green Lanterns are supposed to be an organization of galactic peacekeepers, what are the odds they know about beings like the entities...and possibly how to kill them without being a cheating optimizer Khepri? Or hell, what if Darkseid is aware of them?

[BlueHerring]

Not to mention whatever species the entities have previously done in.

Speaking of, given that the Green Lanterns are supposed to be an organization of galactic peacekeepers, what are the odds they know about beings like the entities...and possibly how to kill them without being a cheating optimizer Khepri? Or hell, what if Darkseid is aware of them?The only known way to beat one of them is with either the intervention of one, or something approximating one (ie, Khepri). Beating them in a brute fight isn't really feasible, since they've got far more than just raw offense at their fingertips.

And they have a lot of those.

[J-H]

The only known way to beat one of them is with either the intervention of one, or something approximating one (ie, Khepri). Beating them in a brute fight isn't really feasible, since they've got far more than just raw offense at their fingertips.


Something that can one-shot a whole planet might do it... perhaps that's what the Anti-Life Equations are really for?

[TeChameleon]

Something that can one-shot a whole planet might do it... perhaps that's what the Anti-Life Equations are really for?

The Anti-Life Equation is less 'erase planet' and more 'bend all reality to your dark will'. And I mean all reality- the Anti-Life Entity appears to exist outside the realms that even the gods know.

Honestly? The League could probably find a way to bring down the Worms. The Lords of Order seem to operate on a scale pretty similar to theirs, and the League (and the Justice Society, and the Doom Patrol, and the Outsiders, and maybe even the Teen Titans) have all played at that level.

... for that matter, the Flash might be their best bet for that; I'm pretty sure he could duplicate Foil's trick, except with his fists- he's one of the only 'natural' universe-hoppers in the DCU. Granted, it would probably mostly be 'blah blah blah, Speed Force, blah blah blah, punch you 'til you explode over three hundred and ninety-seven million dimensions'.

[Dragonus45]

The Anti-Life Equation is less 'erase planet' and more 'bend all reality to your dark will'. And I mean all reality- the Anti-Life Entity appears to exist outside the realms that even the gods know.

Honestly? The League could probably find a way to bring down the Worms. The Lords of Order seem to operate on a scale pretty similar to theirs, and the League (and the Justice Society, and the Doom Patrol, and the Outsiders, and maybe even the Teen Titans) have all played at that level.

... for that matter, the Flash might be their best bet for that; I'm pretty sure he could duplicate Foil's trick, except with his fists- he's one of the only 'natural' universe-hoppers in the DCU. Granted, it would probably mostly be 'blah blah blah, Speed Force, blah blah blah, punch you 'til you explode over three hundred and ninety-seven million dimensions'.

Well I know that at some point the Flash once used his powers to punch a ghost or something to yea he might be able to vibrate his way into punching an entity in the face.

[AvatarVecna]

The only known way to beat one of them is with either the intervention of one, or something approximating one (ie, Khepri). Beating them in a brute fight isn't really feasible, since they've got far more than just raw offense at their fingertips.

And they have a lot of those.

As far as we see in-canon, sure, but in-canon, they're the source of superpowers, and have specifically limited almost every power on the planet to not affect them at all. The DC universe works on a non-entity-based power level that's at least comparable to the entities. If the DC universe has ever had entities of their own, the Green Lanterns or Darkseid might be aware of them, and know how to deal with them.

[BlueHerring]

As far as we see in-canon, sure, but in-canon, they're the source of superpowers, and have specifically limited almost every power on the planet to not affect them at all. The DC universe works on a non-entity-based power level that's at least comparable to the entities. If the DC universe has ever had entities of their own, the Green Lanterns or Darkseid might be aware of them, and know how to deal with them.

The thing about the entities isn't just that they've got an insane arsenal of powers, and the sheer breadth of their powers ensure an almost-infinite amount of combinations. Even among those, there are powers like Behemoth's dynakinesis that are above and beyond what the entities give out as Shards.

The issue isn't necessarily the power level that the entities are dealing with. In fact, how capable the entities are at combining their own powers is literally going to be the deciding factor. All things considered, I'd place this pretty heavily in the entities' favor.

Regardless, even if the DC universe managed to take out an entity, the damage would be catastrophic, to say the least.

[TeChameleon]

Erm... I'm not sure that the Worms are that much bigger and badder (if at all) than DC's Lords of Order like Dr. Fate's hat/bosses. And I always got the impression that the Lords of Order, while definitely on the top-tier amongst the cosmic powers, are still only mid-range or thereabouts on that tier when the serious cosmic throwdowns start happening. And standing seriously close to the pinnacle of that tier is a guy who takes a close personal interest in Earth (heck, he was on the JSA!)- the Spectre.

If he gets involved, the Worms/Entities are hosed. Yes, they've got tons of powers and amazing abilities, but the Spectre is the living personification of the Wrath of God. And if he's punishing the guilty, he can do basically anything that happens to occur to him at the time (seriously, look up the insane ways that the Spectre punishes people sometime. It's messed up).

While I think it would probably take some serious doing for the DCU to repel the Worms, I'm not sure that it would be a universe-ravaging catastrophe or anything like that; Entities coming after them isn't quite just an average Tuesday, but it's hardly unprecedented with the likes of the Anti-Monitor, Imperiex, Dominus, Krona, Mageddon, Trigon, X'hal, Eclipso, the Controllers, Extant, Monarch, Glorith, Mordru, Omega, the Time Trapper, and so on and so forth, running around.