Attacking with 2 hand crossbows

[Ewhit]

I sorry but could not find under search any discussion but I'm sure it's there. However here is my question and rulings I see.

Fighter page 72 two weapon fighting allows ability mod to second weapon but doesn't not apply to crossbow see page 195

Under page 195 two weapon fighting is described as light melee weapons only. Does not apply apply to crossbow

Under page 165 duel wield allows any single handed melee weapon does not apply to crossbow

Under page 165 Crossbow expert ignore loading, no disadvantage at close range, when you attack with a one handed weapon you can bonus attack with a loaded hand crossbow.

Attack with a one handed weapon is ambiguous. It doesn't say melee so a handcrossbow is considered a one handed weapon. Thus you could hold 2 hand crossbows but is it only a cosmetic look or is there a bonus for holding 2 hand crossbows somewhere that I don't see.

Does each shot apply attack and damage.

As a rogue Can I have a hand crossbow in each hand and use crossbow expert to shoot once and bonus action another shot

If I'm a fighter level 1-4 Can I action shoot once. Action surge shoot again then Bonus action shoot again 3 attacks. or is it action shoot once bonus action shoot again then Action surge and repeat action shoot and bonus action again to shoot 4 attacks

[BruceLeeroy]

The problem with dual wielding hand crossbows is that you need a free hand in order to reload. You could, in theory, shoot both crossbows, drop one, reload, and get your bonus shot (assuming you have Extra Attack), but then you've left your crossbow lying on the ground. Not very optimal. Instead, with crossbow expert, you reload as a "free" action, so with Extra attack you simply shoot the single crossbow twice and then use your bonus action via Crossbow Expert to shoot again, using your free hand to reload.

Edit: also, Action surge does not grant an additional bonus action. This has been clarified via Jeremy Crawford on twitter.
I would link it, but I don't post enough.

[mgshamster]

You can't dual wield two hand crossbows. The two weapon fighting rules specify melee weapons only.

However, you can simulate the exact same effect simply by taking the Crossbow Expert feat and using a single hand crossbow.

Edit: I should have read all of the OP, you already have it covered.

To answer your question, yes, you can fire the hand crossbow again as a bonus action after firing it the first time using the crossbow expert feat. You still need a free hand, so no two crossbows. You only get a single bonus action a round, so it's action, bonus action, action surge action (doesn't have to be in that order, your bonus could come after the action surge).

[Ewhit]

Thanks on action order

But Where does it say you need free hand to reload please. Page

As crossbow expert says ignore loading thus if you want to be non specific you could be able to manipulate loading opposite hand crossbow with thumb and pointer while holding handle with other 3 fingers

[Talamare]

Thanks on action order

But Where does it say you need free hand to reload please. Page

As crossbow expert says ignore loading thus if you want to be non specific you could be able to manipulate loading opposite hand crossbow with thumb and pointer while holding handle with other 3 fingers
In the Errata

[Belac93]

There have been many talks about this particular situation. If you did not already know, there is a handy Wizards document called Sage Advice, which deals with this sort of question. Here is what it has to say about your particular question.


Do the first and third benefits of Crossbow Expert turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon?
The short answer is no.

The first benefit of the feat lets you ignore the loading property (PH, 147) of the hand crossbow if you’re proficient with that weapon. The upshot is that you can fire it more than once if you have a feature like Extra Attack. You’re still limited, however, by the fact that the weapon has the ammunition property (PH, 146). The latter property requires you to have a bolt to fire from the hand crossbow, and the hand crossbow isn’t going to load itself (unless it’s magical or a gnomish invention). You need to load each bolt into the weapon, and doing so requires a hand. To dig deeper into this point, take a look at the following sentence in the definition of the ammunition property: “Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack.” The sentence tells us two important things. First, you’re assumed to be drawing—that is, extracting with your hand—the ammunition from a container. Second, the act of drawing the ammunition is included in the attack and therefore doesn’t require its own action and doesn’t use up your free interaction with an object on your turn.

What does that all mean for a hand crossbow? It means Crossbow Expert makes it possible to fire a hand crossbow more than once with a feature like Extra Attack, provided that you have enough ammunition and you have a hand free to load it for each shot.

[eastmabl]

Thanks on action order

But Where does it say you need free hand to reload please. Page

As crossbow expert says ignore loading thus if you want to be non specific you could be able to manipulate loading opposite hand crossbow with thumb and pointer while holding handle with other 3 fingers

I'm away from my PHB, but will quote from the Basic Rules (p. 45, under Chapter 5 on Equipment).

"Ammunition.

You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)." Emphasis added.

Hand crossbows have the ammunition and loading tags, but do not have a two handed tag. Thus, while you don't need to use both hands to shoot the hand crossbow (like you would with a light or heavy crossbow), you still need a free hand to reload your hand crossbow.

You are correct that the feat Crossbow Expert lets you ignore the loading tag and you can make more than one shot as part of your Attack action. However, because it does not let you ignore the ammunition quality, you must have a free hand to load and reload the weapon.

Edit: Also, look at the previous two posts for the clarifications from the Errata and Sage Advice.

[Douche]

Crossbow experts are really the only reason you'd want to "dual wield" crossbows (since you still need to load, and expert allows you to ignore that) but really, at the end of the day, the end result is the same. You shoot many bolts in one turn. Doesn't matter if you're using 1 or 2 hand crossbows.

If it's that important to you, just treat it like you're using 1 but in your imagination be using 2

[mgshamster]

I agree with douche here. Alternatively, talk it or with your GM. I'd allow it in my home games.

[Ewhit]

I'm reading the pb ammunition and doesn't say your quote about needing free hand

[RickAllison]

I'm reading the pb ammunition and doesn't say your quote about needing free hand

It's in the Errata. It is a free document available online that has corrections to mistakes and new rules discovered after release.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I sometimes wonder how people think a crossbow actually works.

[RickAllison]

I sometimes wonder how people think a crossbow actually works.

Indeed. This is why I like gnomes, I just spend a few days in off-time crafting and I come out with a chu-ko-nu hand crossbow. Off course, I'm still just using it with one hand so my BA can go to other functions, so the point is moot :smallbiggrin:

[Ewhit]

Can you please link the errata. The errata I got from
Phb doesn't mention it
http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf

[RickAllison]

Can you please link the errata. The errata I got from
Phb doesn't mention it
http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf

It's on there. Under the Equipment heading, sub-heading Ammunition.
Loading a onehanded
weapon requires a free hand

[Ewhit]

Thank you. I completely missed it.

[joaber]

why would you dual welding hand crossbow if with crossbow expert you can shoot the same hand crossbow with your bonus action?

[Ewhit]

Cosmetic looks

[Quintessence]

Indeed. This is why I like gnomes, I just spend a few days in off-time crafting and I come out with a chu-ko-nu hand crossbow. Off course, I'm still just using it with one hand so my BA can go to other functions, so the point is moot :smallbiggrin:

How do you do that?

[RickAllison]

How do you do that?

The down-time crafting rules? I just talk with the DM, it's not exactly a game-breaking device. Heck, just port over the repeating crossbow from OotA! Halve the range, remove the Loading property, you're good to go.

[AvatarVecna]

My IRL DM finds the concept of dual-wielding hand crossbows to be weird normally, but he allowed it for my character due to being a Warforged; we fluff it as him having detachable crossbows built into his arms, which have auto-loaders doing it for him (which the feat represents). That said, I'm pretty sure that's not RAW compliant, but RAI is a lot more important for 5e than it was for 3.5, so it's whatever.

[Malifice]

If I'm a fighter level 1-4 Can I action shoot once. Action surge shoot again then Bonus action shoot again 3 attacks. or is it action shoot once bonus action shoot again then Action surge and repeat action shoot and bonus action again to shoot 4 attacks

You really need to read the book and understand how actions work mate. And how action surge works.

What on earth makes you think action surge grants you extra bonus actions?

By the way, its option 1. You [use your action] to take the [attack] action. You dont have the extra attack class feature, so this gives you the one attack. Then you [use action surge] to gain another action, again selecting the [attack] action, and make another attack. Then seeing as you are using a hand crossbow in one hand and have the crossbow master feat, you [use your bonus action] to shoot it again.

Once you hit Fighter 5 and gain the extra attack class feature, you make [attack action] 2 attacks + [action surge attack action] 2 more attacks + [bonus action from crossbow master] 1 attack

Action surge can only be used 1/short rest so use it wisely.

[Tanarii]

The first time I read Crossbow Expert, I assumed the bonus hand crossbow shot was specifically for one in the other hand. It made perfect sense to me. Clearly the feat was intending either rapier/hand crossbow a la Dark Elves, or John Woo dual-wielding. Clearly ...

So much for assumptions. ;)


Cosmetic looksJust ask your DM to refluff Crossbow Expert as allowing you to reload them one handed, and the bonus shot coming from the 'off-hand' crossbow. It amounts to the same thing, mechanically.

[Talamare]

If you can get the EXACT SAME MECHANICAL EFFECT with 2 Crossbows as you can with 1 Crossbow

Then the only not to do it is because overly strict rule lawyering
as always, rule of cool baby

[Coffee_Dragon]

Why shouldn't my fighter get to juggle three swords and wear two layered suits of armour? I'm not asking for any mechanical benefits.

[ericgrau]

Why shouldn't my fighter get to juggle three swords and wear two layered suits of armour? I'm not asking for any mechanical benefits.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/8/8c/Oni_Giri.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/210?cb=20130204184939