Maneuver Master advice (for PFS)

[claudekennilol]

This character has already been played at level 2 (and is currently level 4, but hasn't been played yet so that doesn't matter). So the first two levels, traits, ability scores, race, etc. are already locked in. This is also my first post here so forgive me if there's something I missed.

So I've got a character focusing mainly on Dirty Trick.

1st level is Abyssal Bloodrager with Steelblood archetype (+1 CMB, Rage for +2 to hit (i.e. CMB) in combat) and access to Mage Armor via wand).

2nd-7th are Maneuver Master Monk. That gives me Flurry of Manuevers (do any combat maneuver in addition to your full attack)

Ability Scores (including racials)
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 5

Traits -
The Vessel Between - +1 to hit when an attack would deal sneak attack (i.e. blinded (dirty trick) or flanking)
Adopted -> Bred for War (+1 CMB (and intimidate..))

1 - Bloodrager (1) - as described above.
Feat) Extra Rage (I'll never take more levels as bloodrager, so with this I'll get 12 rounds of rage per day, which should be enough for PFS)

2 - Monk (1) Flurry of Maneuvers, Wis to AC and CMD
Bonus Feat) Dirty Trick

3 - Monk (2) - Evasion
Bonus Feat) Improved Grapple (My fallback in case I don't/can't Dirty Trick for some reason)
Feat) Dirty Fighting

4 - Monk (3) - Fast Movement (+10 speed), Maneuver Defense (the real reason I chose Improved Grapple, grapple (via grab) seems to be the most common combat maneuver done against PCs), Maneuver Training (use monk lvl for CMB for all maneuvers, not just during flurry of maneuvers).

5 - Monk (4) - Ki Pool, Reliable Maneuver (swift + ki to roll twice on a single maneuver), AC +1
Feat) Combat Reflexes

6 - Monk (5) - Meditative Maneuver (swift to add wis to one maneuver before next turn), and finally get Barkskin (trading away high jump).

7 - Monk (6)
Feat) Two-Weapon Fighting
Bonus Feat) Greater Dirty Trick

Equipment - Get a Furious +0 Amulet of Mighty Fists ASAP (4k) and add dueling to it ASAP (the +1 enhancement cost one from the PFS Field Guide, not the static cost one -- so this is an additional 12k). This is priority #1. But since this is for PFS, I have to wait for the fame for the purchase.
The aforementioned wand of mage armor.
Physical Belt.
Wisdom headband.
Boots -- lots of good choices, I really like slippers of feather step. Daredevil boots will probably work really well for this character. Boots of the cat are a plus, but I usually don't get those. But since I don't actually have flurry of blows (and thus can't use my ki to get an extra attack) I'll probably have to buy some boots of speed.

At this point I'm a 6th level monk (+1 AC and 1d8 fists). If I take one more level, I'll still have that same AC and damage. But at that point (i.e. lvl 7 monk) if I buy a Monk's Robe, it will increase to +3 AC and 2d6 damage. But a 7th level monk doesn't add a whole lot to me at this point (other than that, which could be substantial, but it's also 13k--but it's basically an impact weapon which is 16k and also 2AC, but costs a level..).

So after this, will probably be three levels of Lore Warden (for full BAB, bonus feats that I haven't picked yet, and +2 CMB at third level).

Another choice is a level of snakebite brawler for sneak attack, then also take the feat that adds +1d6 sneak attack damage. If I do this, I'll probably not take Two-Weapon Fighting and instead take two levels of brawler for their Brawler's Flurry. Without this, I'll never do much damage but will instead just annoy the crap out of enemies.

So with the abyssal bloodline I get two claws when I rage, giving me three attacks (two claws plus a combat maneuver) on a full attack. Once I hit level 8 I'll have 6 BAB with TWF will have 3 unarmed strikes plus a combat maneuver. At this point I'll retrain my bloodline to the celestial bloodline and start using punches more instead of claws. It's good mechanically (good-aligned for overcoming DR and a free 1d6 damage vs evil outsiders) and I like the idea of being "redeemed".

Thoughts?

[Geddy2112]

Unless your belt is planning on boosting dex, I question taking combat reflexes. Not that it is bad, but a single additional attack of opportunity is a bit meh. I think lore warden is a bit better than brawler, and why even bother with brawlers flurry if you are taking two weapon fighting? Just get those feats instead. It will require you to boost your dex to take TWF though, so there is that. Snakebite strangler is not great for just the sneak attack-most things will be immune to it at high levels, or it won't be enough to noticeably matter.

I second trading your claws for the ability to overcome DR/good, doubly so at higher levels in a heroic style campaign.

[claudekennilol]

That's a good point about combat reflexes. Originally I'd planned on taking Improved Trip and Vicious Stomp instead of Improved Grapple (to help with my damage per round). But I've already got a character that uses that and Improved Grapple seemed like a better option because of maneuver defense. With that you're right that combat reflexes may not work as well with this guy as he is now.

That means I can 4th/8th level ability score increases into dex/cha instead of str/str if I want to pick up TWF (which I probably do).

Any thoughts on what feat to pick up at level 5 if not combat reflexes? Any improved combat maneuver feat is an option now due to Dirty Fighting.

[Geddy2112]

If you want an improved maneuver, trip is the second best to grapple-between those 2 you can handle most enemies. There will be some things, like oozes, that don't give two flips about your maneuvers, but almost everything else can be hurt by a grapple or trip. The next best would be disarm, but that depends highly on your campaign-disarm is great against humanoids, terrible against everything else. Improved initiative is always a good feat if you have nothing else. Vicious stomp is great on a trip build and REALLY good for monks with unarmed damage.

I think you mean boost dex/dex to get TWF? The dex 15 is gonna be a stretch for you to get, but doable if you get the belt. Even at 14, combat reflexes is just okay without a reach weapon. Still it is a viable feat at 14 dex.

Speaking of oozes and things immune to maneuvers/that you won't want to unarmed strike(ooze), grab a temple sword and a crossbow, just to have for those just in case moments.

[claudekennilol]

I like the idea of Improved Disarm. I agree that trip is definitely useful, but like I mentioned I've got a character that focuses on trips already. This is different enough and still useful. And yes, I mistakenly thought that TWF required 13 dex (and not 15). This is for PFS and for all intents and purposes, PFS characters are retired after level 11. I did mean dex/cha, though (the cha to just shore up the weakness a bit as 13 + 2 is enough for TWF). A 13 dex plus a belt would be enough for TWF. I'll just have to either forego a strength belt, or get a +2/+2 str/dex belt. But I really like the idea of dirty trick (blind) then ripping the weapon out of their hands with a disarm check.

Hm, another way to go might be a style feat. Kitsune Style would have been a good choice, but the dueling weapon enhancement already says that some dirty trick maneuvers can utilize the weapon, meaning they can already be done on a charge or AoO (gm approval pending, obviously).

And you're right about getting a backup weapon (as in an actual weapon). Should have been obvious but I hadn't thought of that yet.

[Geddy2112]

I forgot about style feats! Kitsune style on its own is meh if you have a weapon to do the trick, but kitsune tricks is amazing for a dirty trick build. If you want to sink 2 feats into dirty trick, it would be the way to go. Kitsune vengeance is also decent if your DM rules you can't AoO a dirty trick.

Snake and crane are excellent defensive styles, and while crane is more hard defense, snake is more counter attack and piercing unarmed strikes(for DR/piercing). If you want to focus more on grapple, kraken is an amazing style and grabbing is decent.

Very few things target charisma-the few that do are ghosts, as some undead/ghost effects use CHA instead of WIS for will saves, or drain charisma. Getting to 0 charisma does leave you unconscious, but these things are rare so unless the +1 would be useless elsewhere, put it into dex or really anything else.


If nothing else, a sling and a club are free. Good to have if you don't want to touch something, or if your enemy is airborne. Since you can add your strength to a sling, it will consistently do more damage than a crossbow, even if you are just throwing random rocks(-1 to attack, 1d3 instead of 1d4).

[upho]

I'd go for Quick Dirty Trick ASAP to make the action economy trade worthwhile. I don't know whether this is possible in PFS, but another build idea to consider might be 8 levels of barb for Savage Dirty Trick and Strength Surge, plus Internal Fortitude for rage cycling. This way, you'd gain a hefty +4 bonus to CMB along with benefits comparable to that of Kitsune Vengeance, Quick Dirty Trick and Greater Dirty Trick in one neat package. Add a few AoO triggers and the regular DT feats and you'd have a very nasty melee controller, especially if you're able to use a reach weapon for your DT shenanigans (though that would be highly dependent on DM fiat). The rage cycling gets going somewhat late for PFS, but the build will still be a very competent dirty tricker in most fights from 6th level an onwards.


Kitsune Style would have been a good choice, but the dueling weapon enhancement already says that some dirty trick maneuvers can utilize the weapon, meaning they can already be done on a charge or AoO (gm approval pending, obviously).I don't think this will fly, since this isn't a question of murky rules AFAICT - it's simply not what the RAW says or implies in any way. Whether you use a weapon or not to perform a Dirty Trick has nothing to do with the action required:
You can attempt to hinder a foe in melee as a standard action. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Dirty-Trick)

There's a reason for feats such as Kitsune Vengeance and Seize the Opportunity from DSP's PoW:E. And conversely, neither of those changes whether you're allowed to use your weapon to perform the Dirty Trick, just the required action (as in the case of for example Quick Dirty Trick or Savage Dirty Trick). In addition, performing a Dirty Trick using a weapon (and thus adding the weapon's enhancement bonus to the CMB check) is something you may be able do in certain situations, as decided by the DM, regardless of the dueling weapon ability:
Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot. (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom?Combat-Maneuvers-and-Weapon-Special-Features)

That said, I do think there might be a case for the dueling weapon description allowing you to use the weapon to make a Dirty Trick in a wider set of circumstances than normally and with less DM fiat. But alas, that would still be up to the DM to decide. And that would only change whether you add the enhancement and luck bonus to your CMB or not.

[claudekennilol]

With Flurry of Maneuvers I don't need Quick Dirty Trick. With FoM, whenever you make a full attack, you can add an additional combat maneuver (regardless if it normally replaces an attack or requires a standard action). If I move, I have a standard action for DT. If I full attack, I can still DT due to FoM. You're right in that it can't normally be done as an AoO or after a charge, though--I hadn't read it recently enough to remember that it says it requires a standard action.

Kitsune style, while obviously intended to work with DT, seems very underwhelming. I don't care about charging because usually I'll have enough movement to reach my opponent. I don't really care about applying 2 different conditions because it's still a single action to remove both. The only thing that could be useful is doing it on an AoO, but that requires two feats I don't really want first :(.

And of course you're right about it being up to the GM, but any GM that says punching someone in the eyes (or poking them) to blind them isn't an unarmed strike is just being asinine. QDT does look like it may be worthwhile because it would let me do two Dirty Strikes on a full attack which could be good. By then they'd both be a standard action to remove..

[upho]

With Flurry of Maneuvers I don't need Quick Dirty Trick. With FoM, whenever you make a full attack, you can add an additional combat maneuver (regardless if it normally replaces an attack or requires a standard action). If I move, I have a standard action for DT. If I full attack, I can still DT due to FoM. /snip/ QDT does look like it may be worthwhile because it would let me do two Dirty Strikes on a full attack which could be good. By then they'd both be a standard action to remove..Yeah, I think DT really is what it says - tricky - in more ways than one... :smalltongue: Anywho, yeah the potential for "BBEG super-debuff double trick" shenanigans is one of the ways the FoM + QDT combo makes "the action economy trade worthwhile". Another is the increased mass control capacity it may give you - trading only one of the attacks in your full attack for the potential to blind two enemies (until you steal a standard action from both) is probably about as good as action economy trading gets for martial classes in PFS at this level, I guess. This application flexibility, and the very small number of creatures immune to all the potential conditions, means you should also be able to remain effective in any fight in which you can get close enough to go kung-fu on the enemies' eyes/ears/balls/equivalent.

And if you can squeeze a regular "in place of a melee attack"-maneuver into that combo, you might just have the most hilariously annoying (for opponents) melee mechanics possible in PFS. Trip would probably be the optimal choice, but I totally get your desire for something new.


Kitsune style, while obviously intended to work with DT, seems very underwhelming. I don't care about charging because usually I'll have enough movement to reach my opponent. I don't really care about applying 2 different conditions because it's still a single action to remove both. The only thing that could be useful is doing it on an AoO, but that requires two feats I don't really want first :(.I mostly agree. Kitsune Vengeance would've been great but not OP if it had been the first feat in the chain, but I can't really see it being worth three slots for any build besides perhaps some kind of weird higher level MC Master of Many Styles. And I think it's kinda telling that Path of War provides the same benefit on an unlimited number of AoOs at the cost of one feat with +1 bab and Combat Reflexes as prereqs...

But I wouldn't dismiss the value of Kitsune Tricks quite as readily because of the one standard action removal. I can see it being really effective when combined with suitable action-denial or debuffs such as trip or stacking demoralization, effectively forcing the enemy to waste its turn, which isn't something one condition can be trusted to achieve. Kitsune Style still sucks though, especially since you're not very likely to do a lot of charging unless you're focusing on damage and thus simply nerf yourself by investing in DT stuff.

Sidenote on "worthwhile": Generally, when I try to decide whether a martial melee build focusing on something other than damage is worthwhile, the first thing I do is to compare the average results of one round of combat to the corresponding results of a decent damage focused build. Which IME translates into "removes at least one previously untouched enemy of CR = level from combat", or whatever can be deemed as having the equivalent impact on the outcome of the fight. And I generally value efficiency against more dangerous opponents and results from the first round of combat higher than alternatives. If you find these demands too high or low for your game, or believe it's not possible to tell whether your combo has "equivalent impact on the outcome" with enough accuracy to be meaningful, then take my talk about "worthwhile" with a big grain of salt. :smallsmile:


And of course you're right about it being up to the GM, but any GM that says punching someone in the eyes (or poking them) to blind them isn't an unarmed strike is just being asinine.Heh, yeah that GM is probably sitting at the wrong end of the table. I should've noted I was speaking from a general RAW POV, not from the POV of what I would think reasonable in your specific case. Personally, I'd let a player use DT with a manufactured weapon as long as the action described and weapon in question seem at least somewhat compatible with the resulting condition, and most definitely if it also makes for a really cool move.

[claudekennilol]

I had a lot of fun with this guy at level 4 the other day. I did a lot of disarming even though I didn't have Improved Disarm. Between that and blinding I was able to provide a lot of support.

What do you mean about "Path of War"? I'm not familiar with that.

[upho]

Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war) is an awesome player complement from Dreamscarred Press (http://dreamscarred.com/), based on the system first introduced by the famous D&D 3.5 "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords" by Wizards of the Coast. Dreamscarred Press' version is generally of a much higher quality IMO, and they've recently released a second great book in the series "Path of War: Expanded". You'll find plenty of playtest threads from the writers here, several of them being GitP regulars.

Unfortunately, it's 3rd party so this stuff isn't allowed in PFS, but if you play in home games as well I wouldn't hesitate to try it out. Highly recommended.

[claudekennilol]

Ah that explains it. I've never looked at 3rd party stuff as most of my games are PFS--and those that aren't are usually more limited than that.