Good ideas for melee crowd control

[DeviantShadow]

So I've thinking about a character design for a while and thought I would ask the opinion of you fine people, about what you thought. I would like to build a melee character that is great at dealing with multiple opponents at once. I know that Polearm Master + Sentinel allows you some crowd control decently against mainly one opponent, but what if you wanted to take on a group of thugs while your friends make for town? What if you get ambushed while scouting ahead and have to hold off 3-4 goblins by yourself until the rest of the party has a chance to catch up? I like the idea of CQC (preferably while dual-wielding as a personal style), but any build that was just really great at dealing with multiple opponents at once would work. What are your thoughts and builds? I welcome them all and thanks for the help! :smallsmile:

[RickAllison]

Vengeance Paladin combos well with an OA build to avoid being surrounded (Moving 15 feet without worrying about OAs in return!).

Long Death monk gets survivability at level 11, a great and repeatable fear effect at level 6, and it gives you temporary HP for downing foes; snap a pigeon's neck before combat, chip away at various enemies while they try and whittle you down, then finish off an enemy when your THP start to get low so you can keep on chugging. Save your ki for survival, Flurry of Blows, and occasionally Step of the Wind to keep out of being surrounded.

[DeviantShadow]

Long Death monk gets survivability at level 11, a great and repeatable fear effect at level 6, and it gives you temporary HP for downing foes; snap a pigeon's neck before combat, chip away at various enemies while they try and whittle you down, then finish off an enemy when your THP start to get low so you can keep on chugging. Save your ki for survival, Flurry of Blows, and occasionally Step of the Wind to keep out of being surrounded.


Well I like this idea! :smallbiggrin: And it keeps well with my own style of TWF. What would your go-to be for weapons on this idea? Or even Feats?

Would you try for a grappling approach?

[Douche]

If you're going to be using CQC then you better make sure that Ocelot doesn't metal gear the Raiden to the BROTHERRRR and then socom the codec to nanomachines with the vocal cord parasites. I need scissors, 61.

[RickAllison]

Well I like this idea! :smallbiggrin: And it keeps well with my own style of TWF. What would your go-to be for weapons on this idea? Or even Feats?

As a monk, a quarterstaff or spear is cheap and will give you the greatest amount of damage (barring magic items) until level 11. For ranged weapons (really melee weapons with the Thrown property), javelins are bulky but cheap while daggers are tiny but four times as expensive; all of them (and handaxe, light hammer, and spear) scale with your monk dice.

Feats aren't as necessary for a monk. Polearm Mastery works with the quarterstaff, so that's an option. I like Observant because it boosts one of the primary stats for monks and makes it easier to see ambushes before they happen (Alert works too; it gives you better initiative and prevents being surprised, but seeing the enemy beforehand lets you ambush the ambushers). Lucky can help you shore up the few times your Diamond Body saves would ever fail you.

EDIT: Actually, my MLD is a grappler! But that's because my DM made the mistake of letting her be a werebear so she is Large-sized :smallbiggrin: I have her personality as a pacifist who grapples to be non-lethal. With immunity from lycanthropy, she is extremely hard to kill.

[Corran]

As already hinted by RickAllison, fear effects are great for battlefield control. My go-to for a melee character with serious battlefield control would be an oathbreaker. Dreadful aspect at level 3 (channel divinity), taking polearm master and sentinel asap (vhuman, feats at 1 & 4), using wrathful smite as a concentration spell.

ps: This build is also optimal in every possible way as well.

ps2: Refluff the polearm as TWF, possible a spear and a sword, so that you can justify the reach.

Edit: It may be not obvious, so I came back to clarify.
You want to exploit the reach of a polearm when paired with the mass fear effect of dreadful aspect. That way you can hit at 10' and cannot be engaged by feared enemies. Wrathful smite is there for you to add one more enemy to the ones that already suffer the fear condition due to your dreadful aspect. Sentinel will keep at least one enemy from trying to escape your fear aura (dreadful aspect) to try to save from it. Besides, polearm master and sentinel are two of the best feats for paladins, especially for oathbreakers (they both play really well with their action economy and with IDS). And if by any chance you manage to reach 20th level, it all just becomes icredibly silly powerful, just read how you can employ the above tactics combined with the dread lord oahbreaker feature (level 20).

[DeviantShadow]

Both of those are good ideas. The monk is a great idea, but I also like the flavor of a gladiator sword and spear style character. Any thoughts as to a good race to run this with? Goliath maybe? Or should I lean more toward Dex based for mobility?

[RickAllison]

Both of those are good ideas. The monk is a great idea, but I also like the flavor of a gladiator sword and spear style character. Any thoughts as to a good race to run this with? Goliath maybe? Or should I lean more toward Dex based for mobility?

If you want grappling, Goliath is tough to beat. Aarakocra flight makes for perfect (or possibly OP) monks. Halfling (Ghostwise for Monk, Lightfoot for Paladin, Stout could go either) allows to travel through the spaces of larger opponents so you can't be fenced in.

[Sir cryosin]

If you want cqc cc play a hunter ranger with horde breaker and whirlwind.

[PracticalM]

As a hunter ranger you can also throw down Spike Growth and keep people from moving very fast or far without taking a lot of damage.

[DeviantShadow]

As a hunter ranger you can also throw down Spike Growth and keep people from moving very fast or far without taking a lot of damage.

I'm at work and my memory is fuzzy, does Spike Growth impede my own movement?

[Corran]

...but what if you wanted to take on a group of thugs while your friends make for town? What if you get ambushed while scouting ahead and have to hold off 3-4 goblins by yourself until the rest of the party has a chance to catch up?...
This can be addressed in a different way, that while does not offer the best or most reliable battlefield control (though it offers some), is perhaps the best strategy to deal with many weak mooks. Darkness + devil's sight + cunning action (hide). Add BB to the mix if you want to start optimising for a melee and more dexterous approach.

[zylodrizzt]

I'd second vengence Paladin sentinel polearm build but grab tunnel fighter fighting style. Use misty step to get out of dicy situations. Keep the attention on u by taking levels of swash for that taunting deal as well as getting I decent other option for bonus stealthing extra cha skill or athletics as u want. Use a staff so I can still grapple. Only move 5ft for each oa. U got decent toughness. Maybe convince dm to allow whip for polearm. If I can try to get booming and burning blade. Knock people prone or taunt them as your action for extra stickiness. My 2 ceramic bits.

[Foxhound438]

If you're going to be using CQC then you better make sure that Ocelot doesn't metal gear the Raiden to the BROTHERRRR and then socom the codec to nanomachines with the vocal cord parasites. I need scissors, 61.

my vote for best metal gear themed word salad of the month

[Foxhound438]

Both of those are good ideas. The monk is a great idea, but I also like the flavor of a gladiator sword and spear style character. Any thoughts as to a good race to run this with? Goliath maybe? Or should I lean more toward Dex based for mobility?

whatever you do, you want your casting stat to be at 16 from the start, so probably not goliath. The save dc for all of the above effects are tied to your secondary stat, so in any case you want to up that stat earlier than you normally would (lv 4 if you can, lv 8 if you need a feat). Fear effects are great if they work, but if everything just shrugs and hits you anyway you've accomplished nothing good.

as a side note silver, white, and green dragonborn's breath weapons are good for punishing crowds of goblins and such weak mook piles, but don't expect it to actually kill anything. At best it softens them enough to finish them with one swing.

Lastly a ranger with horde breaker, great weapon master, and a greatsword is fine (and funny to think about).

[Finieous]

I would like to build a melee character that is great at dealing with multiple opponents at once. I know that Polearm Master + Sentinel allows you some crowd control decently against mainly one opponent, but what if you wanted to take on a group of thugs while your friends make for town?


Oath of the Crown paladin's Champion Challenge doesn't require an action. The above example is easy - the thugs have to make a Wisdom save to move more than 30 feet away from you. Even in more normal combat encounters, with room to maneuver and initiative or positional advantage, you can Dash to a spot within 30 feet of your enemies but more than 30 feet from your allies and then use Champion Challenge. Works as a really MMO-like AoE pull.



What if you get ambushed while scouting ahead and have to hold off 3-4 goblins by yourself until the rest of the party has a chance to catch up?

Use your Champion Challenge and Dodge. They have a hard time hitting you, but can't just go find an easier target.

[DeviantShadow]

Wow guys, there are so many great ideas here! Thank you all for such great input! This kind of response is why I love this forum.

[MaxWilson]

So I've thinking about a character design for a while and thought I would ask the opinion of you fine people, about what you thought. I would like to build a melee character that is great at dealing with multiple opponents at once. I know that Polearm Master + Sentinel allows you some crowd control decently against mainly one opponent, but what if you wanted to take on a group of thugs while your friends make for town? What if you get ambushed while scouting ahead and have to hold off 3-4 goblins by yourself until the rest of the party has a chance to catch up? I like the idea of CQC (preferably while dual-wielding as a personal style), but any build that was just really great at dealing with multiple opponents at once would work. What are your thoughts and builds? I welcome them all and thanks for the help! :smallsmile:

Fighter 1/Enchanter X in plate armor with Athletics proficiency. Can use Split Spell + Tasha's Hideous Laughter to prone + incapacitate two enemies while holding one more grappled and another incapacitated with Hypnotic Gaze, while using his reaction to cause a fifth enemy to hit the grappled guy instead of the enchanter.

And yes, Long Death Monk sounds awesome. I haven't ever gotten to play one in practice unfortunately, but all the metrics check out. Almost unkillable? At-will AoE Fear with no ki cost? Temp HP on kill? Monk mobility? Sign me up!

[RickAllison]

Fighter 1/Enchanter X in plate armor with Athletics proficiency. Can use Split Spell + Tasha's Hideous Laughter to prone + incapacitate two enemies while holding one more grappled and another incapacitated with Hypnotic Gaze, while using his reaction to cause a fifth enemy to hit the grappled guy instead of the enchanter.

And yes, Long Death Monk sounds awesome. I haven't ever gotten to play one in practice unfortunately, but all the metrics check out. Almost unkillable? At-will AoE Fear with no ki cost? Temp HP on kill? Monk mobility? Sign me up!

At high levels, they also become fantastic assassins. Kill an enemy with naught but a touch, with no visible indicators of death. They don't get much offensive variety compared to other monks, but they are very effective at what they do.

[Citan]

Hi OP!

Many great ideas have already sprouted from others, and I agree with all of them. :)

A few notes though...
For a Monk that really wants to get crowd control, dipping Druid a few levels could be a great bang for your buck.
Why?
You get useful cantrips through and through: Shillelagh allows you to focus on WIS (better for spells and Stunning Strike), Thorn Whip or Produce Flame can be useful at times, and Guidance is always good to have for RP and Initiative.
BUT, the true added value lies in spells: many of them will be useful, but the star will be Entangle.

Because otherwise, you'd have to spend ki to Stun every turn to keep them from moving.
With Stunning Strike putting stun (automatically fails STR/DEX saving throws) until the END of YOUR next turn, Entangle will automatically succeed.

It takes 2 of your turns to work, so it will certainly not be for every fight.
But it can be great when you know that the fight cannot be won in 3-4 rounds for any reason (like your party just have to run, and nobody has strong spells such as Wall X to block enemy movement so it's up to you). :)
The fact that to escape it's a STR/DEX check is a pain though (although Way of the Long Death has a Frighten action). :/

So you could dip 3 levels for 6 slots and access to other useful lvl 1 and lvl 2 spells. Alternatively, if you only like the combo (not interested in other spells) or think it will come not often enough to justify a full dip, Magic Initiate is the way to go. :)

Otherwise, for crowd control, Oathbreaker is indeed one of the best but obviously not for every character. :)
Oath of the Crown Paladin coupled with a few levels of Sorcerer can be nice too.
The Channel Divinity can be used to lock in enemies (although it requires to be smart on the positioning) and Twinned Compelled Duel can do much to preserve friends. You can also Command them away. :)

Cleric also can be built as a melee controller, either just creating a barrier with Spirit Guardians, or dual-grappling while smacking with Spiritual Weapon...

(Side note: I wonder how would be ruled the idea of pulling a grappled creature into a Moonbeam area. If agreed it harms, could be a nice idea for a Druid, especially paired with Plant Growth: make terrain difficult for all except you, cast Moonbeam then dual-grapple people and move them around).

[EvilAnagram]

Eldritch Knight with Sentinel and a Trip Maneuver?

Cast Witch Bolt, then Action Surge and use Booming Blade, spending your maneuver to trip them. If they stand up, you deal BB damage. If they don't, they're prone next to a Fighter. If they move away, they take BB damage and risk an opportunity attack that will freeze them in place. If they don't, you can deal Witch Bolt damage and repeat the process.

[Finieous]

Standing up doesn't trigger Booming Blade.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/09/booming-blade-stand-up/

[DeviantShadow]

Thanks again guys. I think I want to try out the Long Death Monk. I haven't been able to decide, but I think I want to go vhuman for the beginning feat. Taking Polearm Master and dual wielding a whip and a short sword. My GM said he would probably allow whip for PM like what was suggested above.
I have to use the standard array from the PHB so I would allocate them like this.
Str - 10
Dex - 15
Con - 13
Int - 8
Wis - 14
Cha - 12
All of this before the bonuses from vhuman. Put the two APIs from that into dex and con.
What do you guys think?

[EvilAnagram]

Standing up doesn't trigger Booming Blade.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/09/booming-blade-stand-up/
Good catch. I guess just switch out maneuvers for War Caster. It's still a great way to keep people in place.


Thanks again guys. I think I want to try out the Long Death Monk. I haven't been able to decide, but I think I want to go vhuman for the beginning feat. Taking Polearm Master and dual wielding a whip and a short sword. My GM said he would probably allow whip for PM like what was suggested above.
I have to use the standard array from the PHB so I would allocate them like this.
Str - 10
Dex - 15
Con - 13
Int - 8
Wis - 14
Cha - 12
All of this before the bonuses from vhuman. Put the two APIs from that into dex and con.
What do you guys think?

Question: Why would you dual wield when you have Martial Arts?

[DeviantShadow]

Question: Why would you dual wield when you have Martial Arts?

I was just thinking short sword does more damage than an unarmed attack starting out. When my monk level goes up and it increases my MA unarmed damage I'd just switch out.

[RickAllison]

I was just thinking short sword does more damage than an unarmed attack starting out. When my monk level goes up and it increases my MA unarmed damage I'd just switch out.

It could be useful if you had two weapons with magical effects that you wished to use in sequence, or that could only be used once per turn. The only one I can think of at the moment is the Defender; you could attack with the Defender once to get the +3 AC, while still getting up to two attacks from your attack weapon.

[DeviantShadow]

It could be useful if you had two weapons with magical effects that you wished to use in sequence, or that could only be used once per turn. The only one I can think of at the moment is the Defender; you could attack with the Defender once to get the +3 AC, while still getting up to two attacks from your attack weapon.

Good idea if I can find one Haha.

[EvilAnagram]

I was just thinking short sword does more damage than an unarmed attack starting out. When my monk level goes up and it increases my MA unarmed damage I'd just switch out.
It doesn't, though.

A bonus action attack with a short sword does 1d6 damage, an average of 3.5.

A bonus action Martial Arts attack deals 1d4+3 damage, an average of 5.5.

[DeviantShadow]

It doesn't, though.

A bonus action attack with a short sword does 1d6 damage, an average of 3.5.

A bonus action Martial Arts attack deals 1d4+3 damage, an average of 5.5.

Good point. I forgot that I'd have to have Fighter Two-Weapon Style to gain the ability mod bonus to the off hand attack. Perhaps a dip into Fighter wouldn't hurt then to gain the fighting style and action surge at 2nd level. Go battle master for the evasive footwork manuever. Thoughts?

[EvilAnagram]

Good point. I forgot that I'd have to have Fighter Two-Weapon Style to gain the ability mod bonus to the off hand attack. Perhaps a dip into Fighter wouldn't hurt then to gain the fighting style and action surge at 2nd level. Go battle master for the evasive footwork manuever. Thoughts?

You'd basically be delaying your Monk level progression by two levels to get a single extra point of average damage for the few levels in which short swords beat monk fists.

[DeviantShadow]

You'd basically be delaying your Monk level progression by two levels to get a single extra point of average damage for the few levels in which short swords beat monk fists.

True, but I would also get Action Surge and some helpful maneuvers if I took the full three levels. Wouldn't that help make up for the delay in the long run? Or do you think straight monk would end up being better? Come to think of it I'd almost have to go Fighter to get access to proficiencies with polearm weapons or the whip. Quarterstaff doesn't provide the reach i was going for.

[EvilAnagram]

True, but I would also get Action Surge and some helpful maneuvers if I took the full three levels. Wouldn't that help make up for the delay in the long run? Or do you think straight monk would end up being better? Come to think of it I'd almost have to go Fighter to get access to proficiencies with polearm weapons or the whip. Quarterstaff doesn't provide the reach i was going for.

In that case, take the levels of Fighter and take Dueling. You'll get a +2 to whip damage without the short sword, and that bonus won't go away.

[RickAllison]

True, but I would also get Action Surge and some helpful maneuvers if I took the full three levels. Wouldn't that help make up for the delay in the long run? Or do you think straight monk would end up being better? Come to think of it I'd almost have to go Fighter to get access to proficiencies with polearm weapons or the whip. Quarterstaff doesn't provide the reach i was going for.

Fighter doesn't play nicely with Monk. Those three levels not only mean you are three levels behind getting your abilities (including Extra Attack), but also permanently behind on your primary resource (ki). I say suck it up until level 5.

Polearms besides the quarterstaff and the whip do not benefit from Martial Arts, so that's a step backwards as well.

If you did want to multi-class for the fighting style, I would actually say Ranger 2 would be better. No conflict with ability scores, you have a choice between TWF or the better-for-monks Dueling style, and you can grab Hunter's Mark (2 to 4d6 extra damage per turn) and another Ranger L1 spell. Instead of getting +1 or +2 damage per turn for two levels, you instead get a permanent +4 and 2 to 4d6 extra damage. That beats out TWF at the start and later on as well.

[DeviantShadow]

Fighter doesn't play nicely with Monk. Those three levels not only mean you are three levels behind getting your abilities (including Extra Attack), but also permanently behind on your primary resource (ki). I say suck it up until level 5.

Polearms besides the quarterstaff and the whip do not benefit from Martial Arts, so that's a step backwards as well.

If you did want to multi-class for the fighting style, I would actually say Ranger 2 would be better. No conflict with ability scores, you have a choice between TWF or the better-for-monks Dueling style, and you can grab Hunter's Mark (2 to 4d6 extra damage per turn) and another Ranger L1 spell. Instead of getting +1 or +2 damage per turn for two levels, you instead get a permanent +4 and 2 to 4d6 extra damage. That beats out TWF at the start and later on as well.

Excellent point. Sucking it up I will be. The ranger idea works well too. However why is Dueling the better style? Not that I disbelieve you I'm curious.

[RickAllison]

Excellent point. Sucking it up I will be. The ranger idea works well too. However why is Dueling the better style? Not that I disbelieve you I'm curious.

TWF style gives you the bonus that Martial Arts will give your bonus attacks anyway, so that is redundant. Dueling will give you +2 damage for attacks done by a melee weapon held in one weapon and no other weapon (unarmed doesn't count, so that's fine!). Since you can make two of your three or four attacks per turn with that, it boosts your DPR by +4 that potentially remains for the entire game.

EDIT: Bonus attacks done by Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows, not TWF.

[DeviantShadow]

TWF style gives you the bonus that Martial Arts will give your bonus attacks anyway, so that is redundant. Dueling will give you +2 damage for attacks done by a melee weapon held in one weapon and no other weapon (unarmed doesn't count, so that's fine!). Since you can make two of your three or four attacks per turn with that, it boosts your DPR by +4 that potentially remains for the entire game.

EDIT: Bonus attacks done by Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows, not TWF.

That's perfect! I'll stick with Long Death monk til level 6 then go to ranger til level 3 at the least to get get Horde Breaker.

[RickAllison]

That's perfect! I'll stick with Long Death monk til level 6 then go to ranger til level 3 at the least to get get Horde Breaker.

Monk gives you the mobility to get where you need to go, Dueling gives you the extra +2 over a Martial Arts attack, and MLDs don't lose anything from not making unarmed attacks anyway. You trade a few monk levels to gain a sustained +6+3d6-1 or 2dX if you must spend your BA shifting Hunter's Mark or +4+3 or 4d6 if you have just one big target. Decent trade, there.

[DeviantShadow]

Monk gives you the mobility to get where you need to go, Dueling gives you the extra +2 over a Martial Arts attack, and MLDs don't lose anything from not making unarmed attacks anyway. You trade a few monk levels to gain a sustained +6+3d6-1 or 2dX if you must spend your BA shifting Hunter's Mark or +4+3 or 4d6 if you have just one big target. Decent trade, there.

I really like this idea. I'm sorry though I'm not realizing where the +6+3d6-1 or 2dX is coming from. Or the +4+3 or 4d6. I'm trying to figure it out, but I'm just not coming up with it at the moment.

[RickAllison]

I really like this idea. I'm sorry though I'm not realizing where the +6+3d6-1 or 2dX is coming from. Or the +4+3 or 4d6. I'm trying to figure it out, but I'm just not coming up with it at the moment.

+6 comes from Dueling style with Horde Breaker; you get two attacks from Extra Attack and one from Horde Breaker which all benefit from the +2 from the style. The d6s are coming from Hunter's Mark. With the former, you get three attacks because you are spending your bonus action switching around Hunter's Mark (probably) and the -1 or 2dX is for the monk damage dice that are being lost from Martial Arts BA or Flurry of Blows. With the latter, you get only two attacks with the Dueling bonus, but still get three or four damage boosts from Hunter's Mark. My math on the first is a little off since Horde Breaker won't be on the Marked target (unless the first two killed the Mark, then you can BA it onto the second).

[DeviantShadow]

+6 comes from Dueling style with Horde Breaker; you get two attacks from Extra Attack and one from Horde Breaker which all benefit from the +2 from the style. The d6s are coming from Hunter's Mark. With the former, you get three attacks because you are spending your bonus action switching around Hunter's Mark (probably) and the -1 or 2dX is for the monk damage dice that are being lost from Martial Arts BA or Flurry of Blows. With the latter, you get only two attacks with the Dueling bonus, but still get three or four damage boosts from Hunter's Mark. My math on the first is a little off since Horde Breaker won't be on the Marked target (unless the first two killed the Mark, then you can BA it onto the second).

Ahhh that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. I really am liking the way this build looks. Thanks for all the help once again everyone and thanks RickAllison for some of the diner points.
I am beginning to think that Sentinel might be a better feat to keep control of the ones that try to run out of fear. I wouldn't get then all, but I could stall one and go after the others on the next round and rinse and repeat. It would be hard for them to get away with a monk's speed.