Why wouldn't you pick fighter Lvl 2/spellcaster *

[Ewhit]

Why wouldn't any spellcaster want to get 2 levels in fighter. Besides the obvious get higher level spells faster than being behind 2 levels the trade off is very useful
1. Little bit more hit points
2. Armor and weapons
3. Pick fighting style
4. Second wind free heal
5. Action surge allows you to cast 2 spells of any level or cantrips if you toss in a bonus action spell , sword and spell, double action movements etc it's just so amazing.

What are your thoughts for or against it

[GraakosGraakos]

Flavor and RP? The fact that you want to play a spellcaster the whole game instead of doing exactly the opposite for the first 2 levels of play? Especially since most games don't hit 20, and instead run to like, 12. That's valuable Barding time.

[Belac93]

Usually because I'm playing a wizard, or warlock, or sorcerer, or druid, or bard, or cleric. If I wanted to play a spellcasting fighter, I would. But if I want to play someone who shoots fireballs at enemies in robes, I'll play a wizard.

And, as GraakosGraakos said above, most games do not run to 20.

[Fable Wright]

Well, I'm playing a Moon Druid, so...

1. I have ungodly hit points from animal forms already, so why do I need more?
2. I still can't wear that heavy armor. Yay, arbitrary class restrictions!
3. Fighting Style? Sure, except that I don't have ranged attacks, won't wear armor in wildshape, and I don't wield the weapons to qualify for TWF, Duelist, or GWF.
4. See 1.
5. Nearly every spell I cast is Concentration-duration or out of combat. I really don't need to cast two in the same turn.

So, as a full caster, I call it worthless on every count.

[Gtdead]

Fighter 1 is an attractive dip for con proficiency along with heavy armor. Rushing action surge before getting the big spells is kinda pointless though. At high levels agree, a lot of builds would love action surge

[CantigThimble]

"Sorry guys, I don't know Raise Dead or Commune yet but look! I can cast Bane AND Spirit Guardians in the same turn! Then 3 of them make their save with a penalty! Get back to me in a few weeks and I might be able to bring Jim back. Sorry Jim, but really we all know this is for the best."

Basically high level spells are amazing. Delaying them by a couple levels sounds fine in theorycraft but in practice it hurts. A lot.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Leaving aside questions of RP...

1. Whether a two-level dip in fighter is valuable is not in doubt. Whether a two-level dip in fighter is better than the last two levels in a full caster is rarely in doubt (though some classes it's still arguable). Whether it is worth more at the earlier stages, however, than simply advancing in one's class, is very much arguable. Certainly, I'd need very good arguments against not taking the dip for a suitable character if I was making a twentieth level character, but making a first or fifth or even fifteenth level character is a different matter - and one doesn't make twentieth level characters that one intends to play for a long time very often - admittedly, I just did do that last week, but I'm reasonably certain that's the exception.

2. There are a couple of other good dips a caster should consider. Often, one might find that a Paladin (for Divine Smite), Warlock (for Eldritch Blast) or Rogue (for Cunning Action) dip suits one's purposes better, to give a few examples (in my recent build, I decided in the end that Paladin would be more suitable)

[Flashy]

"Sorry guys, I don't know Raise Dead or Commune yet but look! I can cast Bane AND Spirit Guardians in the same turn! Then 3 of them make their save with a penalty! Get back to me in a few weeks and I might be able to bring Jim back. Sorry Jim, but really we all know this is for the best."

Basically high level spells are amazing. Delaying them by a couple levels sounds fine in theorycraft but in practice it hurts. A lot.

"Look guys, I would Banish the fiend, but Pelor hasn't blessed me with that power yet. But look, my AC is 21 instead of 19!"

[JumboWheat01]

I've just always been adverse to multi-classing. Even in D&D 3.5, the optimizer's dream, I would go through a game as a pure fighter, one of the dumbest ideas, because I wanted the feel and theme of a fighter, not a fighter/weapon master, or a fighter/mage/eldritch knight, or even a barbarian. I wanted to be a fighter, gods blast it, so that's what I played.

As for casters, well, it's also the same as above, as well as the old idea of spell DCs still being stuck in my head. If you weren't a pure caster, your DCs were crap and you might as well never use offensive spells. Crowd control and debuffing is one of my favorite things to do with a Wizard, and you needed top-of-the-line DCs with the aid of Spell Focus to get the job done a lot at later levels.

In short, I don't do a fighter 2/spellcaster because I just don't do multi-classing. Plus, I could just stick as a fighter, and at fighter 3, I become an Eldritch Knight. Voila, spell casting while still beating things down.

[Corran]

Well, delaying your spell progression (even if in the end you do get access to 9th level spells) is a very very bad thing for a full caster.

Dipping in 1 level of fighter does offer some nice little things, though character optimization does not justify that dip. People do it for one of 3 reasons:
1) They dig the flavour of a character that hurls spells while clad in full plate (the non-puny wizard).
2) For party optimization reasons (eg, they need to take some of the heat, or more likely the rest of the group cannot protect them efficiently).
3) Bad decision making (usually caused from efforts to make op multiclassed gishes).

Second wind and fighting style are minor additions, so are the few extra hp, mainly what the first fighter level offers is the con save proficiency and the armor proficiency. The value of this is mitigated if cleric, druid (nullified almost), sorcerer, or bladesinger.

If you made the decision on starting as a fighter (thus having just 1 fighter level), a second level for action surge is an option worth considering, but as Gtdead said, only after getting a few big spells and the slots to use them more than once.

In the end, even a well-planned fighter 2 dip does what 99.99% of multiclassing does. Makes you sligthly better in a very particular area (AC and nova in this case) at the cost of power overall.

[Gastronomie]

Because you can't think up an idea for his backstory...?

Also, obviously, because you always get 1 spell level behind in casting compared to everyone else. For instance, Wizard 5 is probably better than Fighter2/Wizard 3.

And even if you use Action Surge, you can't cast multiple spells with spells in the same turn, remember? If you want to cast Cantrip+Level Spell for some good amount of damage, chances are, you're better off using Sorcerer than Wizard.

[CantigThimble]

Because you can't think up an idea for his backstory...?

Also, obviously, because you always get 1 spell level behind in casting compared to everyone else. For instance, Wizard 5 is probably better than Fighter2/Wizard 3.

And even if you use Action Surge, you can't cast multiple spells with spells in the same turn, remember? If you want to cast Cantrip+Level Spell for some good amount of damage, chances are, you're better off using Sorcerer than Wizard.

You actually can cast 2 leveled spells with action surge. The restriction you are thinking of only applies to bonus action spells, which specify than you can't cast them in the same turn as a a non-cantrip spell. Though you are correct that if your plan is to cantrip+other spell then you should just go sorcerer.

[Ruslan]

Besides the obvious get higher level spells faster than being behind 2 levels You have answered your own question. Remember, when dipping 2 Fighter levels, you are always a whole spell level behind a single-classed caster.

Whatever a single-classed caster has, you get 2 levels later, always. Want to scorch scores of enemies with Fireball? You need to wait 2 extra levels for that.
Want to Teleport? Wait 2 levels.
Want a Wish? Wait 2 levels.

So, eventually you do get all the abilities of a higher-level caster. But 2 levels later. A particular brand of optimizers only look at level 20, and in that case, I grant you that Fighter 2/Wizard 18 is probably better than Wizard 20. But on the way there, the single-class Wizard is probably better.

Also, by the way, on lower levels you don't have enough higher level spell slots to make good use of Action Surge. You'll be like "all dressed up, but nowhere to go" - can use Action Surge several times per day, but running out of the good spells, and have to use it to cast ... a cantrip. Blech.

[georgie_leech]

Worth noting that the Heavy Armor proficiency is only available to starting Fighter's, not those who dip into it later.

[SharkForce]

the obvious answer you mentioned is all that is necessary. more spell slots, more spells known, more spells prepared, higher level spell slots, higher level spells known.

two shatter spells might be as good or even slightly better than a single fireball, but now i don't have any level 2 spell slots left and i never had any level 3 spell slots to begin with, so i'm down to having a level 2 fighter's features and some level 1 spells to carry me through the rest of the day, but i'm facing challenges appropriate for a level 5 character.

if what i want to make is a spellcaster, generally speaking 2 levels of actual spellcasting classes are going to do more for me than 2 levels of fighter.

[Ewhit]

I was thinking as an example 2 fighter/5th Mage casting haste twice on 2 of the party members then following turns cantrip fire bolts twice 2d10 each total 4d10 each turn would be a good example or hold persons then work fire bolts. Etc or with cleric healing twice when needed and sacred flame 2 times around

[AvatarVecna]

I was thinking as an example 2 fighter/5th Mage casting haste twice on 2 of the party members then following turns cantrip fire bolts twice 2d10 each total 4d10 each turn would be a good example or hold persons then work fire bolts. Etc or with cleric healing twice when needed and sacred flame 2 times around

I might be misremembering (I'll go check my book), but isn't Haste Concentration duration? So you could only have one running at a time.

EDIT: Yep, it's Concentration duration, doesn't work.

[Ewhit]

Or warlock with the 2 spells slot begging able to do more with e blast

[CantigThimble]

I was thinking as an example 2 fighter/5th Mage casting haste twice on 2 of the party members then following turns cantrip fire bolts twice 2d10 each total 4d10 each turn would be a good example or hold persons then work fire bolts. Etc or with cleric healing twice when needed and sacred flame 2 times around

All of those would either work better (in the case of firebolt) or work at all (in the case of haste) with sorcerer's twin spell. And I'm not sure if you intended this or if it's just the way it's worded but you seem to be saying that the Fighter 2/Wizard 5 could cast 2 hastes and then cast 2 firebolts in the next turn. Since you can only use action surge once per short rest that wouldn't be possible.

[Mellack]

Both Haste and Hold person are concentration, so you are not casting two of either of those.
If you think casting two cantrips is good, then go sorcerer and use metamagic to do that. It is even usable more times than action surge.
With the less spell slots, being able to cast two spells the same round is not that useful until very late in the game. You have less spells overall, which means you either have to do more of just throwing cantrips, or you can actually try to swing a weapon. But then you have to spread out your stats more, probably making you worse at actual spellcasting.

[Giant2005]

Why wouldn't any spellcaster want to get 2 levels in fighter. Besides the obvious get higher level spells faster than being behind 2 levels the trade off is very useful

That obvious answer is the exact reason and shouldn't be discounted so easily.
Low level casters suck - they have too few spell slots to do anything useful on a consistent basis and end up spending their time spamming low-damage cantrips. The only reason to play a full caster (other than roleplay requirements) is for the hope of getting your hands on powerful, high level spells. More specifically, level 9 spells (or other high level abilities like Spell Mastery).
That two-level dip will force you to gain 80,000 more xp before getting your hands on level 9 spells. That is almost the same amount of experience it requires for a level 1 character to become level 11. That is an absolutely devastating setback.
If you are a full caster, 2 levels is simply too much of a price to pay regardless of the rewards. 1 level only requires 30,000 xp to off-set and is much less of a burden.

Although the above isn't true for all of the spellcasters either - Clerics don't really have any high level abilities or spells that are worth having, so they can dip all they like without much consequence once they have access to all of their important spells/abilities.

[Ewhit]

haste is concentration just giving random thought but you get my point you can do a lot more with surge cast more spells do more actions or not

[Ruslan]

I was thinking as an example 2 fighter/5th Mage casting haste twice on 2 of the party membersIt's interesting that you chose this example, because Fighter 2/Wizard 5 actually cannot cast Haste on two party members, whereas Wizard 7 can.

[RickAllison]

Honestly, unless one is nova-ing for a final boss, it usually doesn't make much sense to waste an action surge on damage-dealing spells (barring lots of archers who are wonderfully clumped together). One of the greatest uses is being able to use two utility/control spells at the right time to massive effect. Also could be nice for gishes who really want to buff the first round, but that's a separate story.

[AvatarVecna]

haste is concentration just giving random thought but you get my point you can do a lot more with surge cast more spells do more actions or not

Spellcasters don't get enough spells per day to make a 1/short rest extra action very useful for casting spells, at least not until higher levels...and at higher levels, spellcasters would rather continue getting high level spells rather than give up access to their most powerful tricks in exchange for casting 1 extra spell 1 time per short rest.

[CantigThimble]

It's interesting that you chose this example, because Fighter 2/Wizard 5 actually cannot cast Haste on two party members, whereas Wizard 7 can.

Nope, Haste gains no benefit from being cast in a higher level slot. (unlike hold person or blindness which function the way you meant)

[RickAllison]

Nope, Haste gains no benefit from being cast in a higher level slot. (unlike hold person or blindness which function the way you meant)

I think he was referring to the fact that he doesn't get 4th level spells until Wizard 7 :smallwink:

[CantigThimble]

I think he was referring to the fact that he doesn't get 4th level spells until Wizard 7 :smallwink:

Haste is a 3rd level spell?

[Ruslan]

Nope, Haste gains no benefit from being cast in a higher level slot. (unlike hold person or blindness which function the way you meant)I swear I meant Fly and ... and other spells that get better with slot . I did. Honest. :smallwink:

[Foxhound438]

1) druid capstone
2) obvious thing that is obvious and you noted was obvious but is still a valid reason
3) last ASI/feat

but generally i agree, fighter brings a lot to the table for casters. Bladesinger gets a lot out of 2wf, bladelock gets a lot out of heavy armor, sorc gets, uh... action surge... same for everything else. Honestly though, for me it's a matter of what your party needs. If you're the wizard in a party of meat walls, higher levels of spells will always be better when progressing.

[RickAllison]

Haste is a 3rd level spell?

Ahh, I thought it was fourth. I never get it on my spell-list so my mistake.

[greenstone]

I wouldn't pick it for 2 reasons.

First, I don't want to wait till character level 6 for my first ASI/Feat.
Second, I don't want to spend points giving my spellcaster 13 STR or 13 DEX - I want those points in INT, CON and maybe CHA.

[Foxhound438]

You have answered your own question. Remember, when dipping 2 Fighter levels, you are always a whole spell level behind a single-classed caster.



generally you would start with fighter 1 and then go into caster for 5, 7, maybe 9 levels, then get that 2nd fighter level when appropriate. For example, a fighter2/bladelock 7 would use the first action in a combat to fire shield/armor of agathys, then act surge to start beating things to death right off.

[Mellack]

If you were to action surge as a Ftr 2/ Wiz 5 and cast two Hastes, ignoring that it is concentration, you have just used all your 3rd level spells for the whole day. If you try to do that every time you have action surge available, you are going to blow through your spells at an incredible rate. That leads to lots of encounters spent just using cantrips for a few moments of flurried casting. Generally that would not be a good trade.

[Foxhound438]

If you were to action surge as a Ftr 2/ Wiz 5 and cast two Hastes, ignoring that it is concentration, you have just used all your 3rd level spells for the whole day. If you try to do that every time you have action surge available, you are going to blow through your spells at an incredible rate. That leads to lots of encounters spent just using cantrips for a few moments of flurried casting. Generally that would not be a good trade.

well that's just bad resource management... any bad sorcerer can burn all their resources casting fireball 5 times* in the first combat.

*didn't bother to count how many times they actually can fireball, the point is not the number of times they can.

[CantigThimble]

well that's just bad resource management... any bad sorcerer can burn all their resources casting fireball 5 times* in the first combat.

*didn't bother to count how many times they actually can fireball, the point is not the number of times they can.

Incidentally you were correct. ((4*1+3*2+5)/4)+2=5.75

[Mellack]

well that's just bad resource management... any bad sorcerer can burn all their resources casting fireball 5 times* in the first combat.

*didn't bother to count how many times they actually can fireball, the point is not the number of times they can.

Of course it is. Which is why action surge isn't really that useful to a spellcaster. They don't have enough spells to be casting them that quickly very often. Especially since the levels of fighter means they have even less spells than if they single classed.

[Ewhit]

I'm not disagreeing with wasteful spells casting or with rp or character conception I never played multi class before always going single class til now so I'm researching.

But let's look at this as an example with a wizard. not excluding cleric sorcerer warlock bard

If you warrior first you get heavy armor and con save bonus but you get nothing from leveling wizard for multi class. Multi classing fighter 2nd gives you medium armor shield all weapons

Wizard lvl 1,3,4,5 fighter lvl 2,3.

For stat purposes depending on your rp up to you but let's say intelligence dex which works for wizard and fighter dex.

So if you want armor not that you need to; you could go as far a half plate with max dex bonus +2 for ac 17
Fighting style defense add +1 ac for 18.

Or you could go int str and just have little lower armor or you could go no armor add dex and cast Mage armor

Weapon finess for dex rapier short sword scimitar or you could just go quarter staff with no bonus or go any weapon if you go str int instead of int dex

Next you get second wind 1d10+2 per short rest

Then you get action surge allowing the flexibility of 2 actions fighting casting running interaction with X.

Just like a single class wizard you will cast flame bolt more often than anything else since it's not a spell slot. Even a standard spell caster may run out of spells it's all about smart casting. A. Lvl 5 wizard is 4,3,2 level 7 wizard 4,3,3,1 1 extra 3rd 1 4th very important but let's also look at what they can do

F/w can cast 2 fire bolt cantrips per turn for 2d10/2d10
Wizard 7 1 fire bolt 2d10 per turn
We all know that's the bread and butter of spellcasters for consistent attacks without using spell slots

F/w can cast 1 spell and cantrip, or 2 spells
Wizard only 1 spell. Per turn.
Some may say that the f/w will go through spells faster. Yes and no. If the wizard cast 4 spells for the combat phase 1 each action phase its 4 spells. If the f/w cast 4 spells it would be the same but at 2 action phase leaving turn 3,4 for flame bolt

If the wizard only cast 1 or 2 spells for the combat the f/w could do the same but still get more damage output over the same amount of action phases.

If it's not about damage then the same applies. Wizard casts haste on ally the. Waits for next turn to cast invisible, leaving him open for attack. F/w casts haste on ally and then goes invisible the same turn. No difference on spells to be cast just f/w does it faster. Now if the wizard decided to hang out hiding the same could be said of w/f he doesn't have to fight also. But if he does he can do it a little bit better even if he somehow was forced into melee and the wizard also.

If the wizard uses all of his spells he's left with firebolt same as f/w but as noted above at a lesser damage output

Now on the flip side the wizard can cast 1 extra 3rd and 1 4th level spells nothing to sneeze about and very much more powerful spell choices. That's the trade off.

Now apply the same with the other classes and look at the spells you can cast twice per round damage or buffs or heals and those you can't if they are both concentration spells. And remember it's about casting the same amount of spells as the single class, just that you do it fast than The single class can get out. 2 spells In 1 turn compared to 2 spells in 2 turns (action). 4 spells in 2 turns vrs 4 spells in 4 turns

But once again the single class will have more spells overall but not by much

[CantigThimble]

Now apply the same with the other classes and look at the spells you can cast twice per round damage or buffs or heals and those you can't if they are both concentration spells. And remember it's about casting the same amount of spells as the single class, just that you do it fast than The single class can get out. 2 spells In 1 turn compared to 2 spells in 2 turns (action). 4 spells in 2 turns vrs 4 spells in 4 turns

A fighter/wizard cannot cast 4 spells in 2 turns. Action surge does NOT give you an extra action every turn. It gives you an extra action ONCE and then you can't use it again until you take a short rest.

[Mellack]

You seem to be a little confused by action surge by the way you suggest. Action surge only works once every short rest. So you are not casting two firebolts every round. You are only doing that once every couple of fights usually. All the other rounds you only get a single action like everyone else. If you want to cast cantrips twice a round more often you should choose a straight sorcerer.

[Mellack]

Also note, Haste and Invisibility are both concentration spells. The wizard cannot cast both no matter how many turns they do it over. Many spells require concentration, it is a built in limit to keep wizards from having too much influence. That is another good reason you don't need to be casting so many so fast.

[MeeposFire]

From what I read I think some are under the mistaken impression that haste allows you to use its extra action to cast cantrips. It does not.

[Foxhound438]

Of course it is. Which is why action surge isn't really that useful to a spellcaster. They don't have enough spells to be casting them that quickly very often. Especially since the levels of fighter means they have even less spells than if they single classed.

having the option > not having the option

[SharkForce]

having the option > not having the option

not when having the option removes several other better options.

[CantigThimble]

having the option > not having the option

And having the option to cast the next higher level of spell and have more slots overall > not having those

The actual question is whether action surge > spell slots.

[Malifice]

F/w can cast 2 fire bolt cantrips per turn for 2d10/2d10

Action surge can only be used 1/ short rest. Not 1/ encounter, and definately not 1/turn.

Meaning your uber awesome wizard has delayed 2 whole levels of casting [look at the list of available spells for the level after whatever you know and youll see why this is a bad idea] for the ability to spam 2 cantrips once every 3 encounters or so?

This is not a good trade off.

I mean yeah sure, a Fighter 2/ Wizard 5 can fireball then action surge and fireball again. Once he does that, he is out of 3rd level slots for the day, and has used his action surge up till he short rests again.

Over a 6-8 encounter day, Im not persuaded thats really worth it.

[Ewhit]

Stand corrected on action surge short rest after using it. So bottom line would be if no short rests for an adventure it would not be worth the dip. If 1 short rest it's maybe worth it and if it's 2 or more short rests it's worth it.

Ty for correction

[RickAllison]

Stand corrected on action surge short rest after using it. So bottom line would be if no short rests for an adventure it would not be worth the dip. If 1 short rest it's maybe worth it and if it's 2 or more short rests it's worth it.

Ty for correction

I'm still in doubt as to its worth. For a slightly higher dip, I can take sorcerer and gain the ability to double-up on blasting several times a day while keeping spell slots and gaining several auto-prepared spells (Shield, thou art calling to me!). Still get Con save proficiency, but Dragon sorc gets you perma-Mage Armor to make up for the lack of armor. Fighter 2 can be decent, but you seem to severely over-value it.

[. Shadowblade .]

Why? Because I dont want to lose spell slots.

[HoarsHalberd]

Stand corrected on action surge short rest after using it. So bottom line would be if no short rests for an adventure it would not be worth the dip. If 1 short rest it's maybe worth it and if it's 2 or more short rests it's worth it.

Ty for correction

Wizard 5/2 vs Wizard 7. 3 action surges a day vs a third level spell slot and the ability to cast 4th level spells (and a 4th level spell slot) not to mention actual class features. One word. Polymorph. The ability to cast that spell 1/day is much better than the ability to action surge a few times a day. I'd either go wizard 18 then get fighter 2, or if you wanted to action surge for the whole of level 19, go wizard 17 (9th level spells are worth it) fighter 2 wizard 1.

[Ewhit]

I'm still in doubt as to its worth. For a slightly higher dip, I can take sorcerer and gain the ability to double-up on blasting several times a day while keeping spell slots and gaining several auto-prepared spells (Shield, thou art calling to me!). Still get Con save proficiency, but Dragon sorc gets you perma-Mage Armor to make up for the lack of armor. Fighter 2 can be decent, but you seem to severely over-value it.

Hmm. Interesting so would it be better to go 3 sorcerer/*wizard or reverse and if I'm correct you use the multi class spell level progression on page 165 at 7th level for spell,slots 4,3,3,1 but since neither class can cast level 4 spells you can use the lvl 4 slot for a 1-3 spell at a lvl 4 enhancement?
And as for what spells you can learn you use each class separately ? You know 4 sorcery spells at lvl 3 and int mod + wizard lvl

Now when you cast the 4 sorcerers spells is it under charisma? Or can you use the 4 spells known under int or can you use the 4 sorcerer spell slots for extra wizard slots ?
and get 3 sorcery points and 2 meta magic and dragon ac 13+dex

[CantigThimble]

Hmm. Interesting so would it be better to go 3 sorcerer/*wizard or reverse and if I'm correct you use the multi class spell level progression on page 165 at 7th level for spell,slots 4,3,3,1 but since neither class can cast level 4 spells you can use the lvl 4 slot for a 1-3 spell at a lvl 4 enhancement?
And as for what spells you can learn you use each class separately ? You know 4 sorcery spells at lvl 3 and int mod + wizard lvl

Now when you cast the 4 sorcerers spells is it under charisma? Or can you use the 4 spells known under int or can you use the 4 sorcerer spell slots for extra wizard slots ?
and get 3 sorcery points and 2 meta magic and dragon ac 13+dex

You are correct that you use the table on 165 and your combined character level to determine spell slots, but use each class individually to determine what spells you know.

The sorcerer spells must be cast using Cha while the wizard spells must be cast using Int. You can use spell slots for spells you know from either class but the class you know the spell from determines which stat you cast it with.

However, one question you might want to ask yourself if you plan on building a character like this is: Why am I taking levels in wizard? While a broader spell list does make metamagic better you would probably be better off taking levels in bard instead. Since they also use charisma as their casting stat you don't need to split your Ability Score Increases and if there are specific spells you want to use with metamagic then you can get them with magical secrets.

[Ewhit]

Good point. But th character I'm making is a wizard. And wanted to try multi class since I've always played single class

I was looking at warlock but 2 spells per short rest then just eblast is worse than wizard fighter who can action surge per short rest and also recover 1/2 wizard lvl spell lvl per shor rest once a Day and also use fire bolt and if needed melee with ac second wind and fighting style

[CantigThimble]

Good point. But th character I'm making is a wizard. And wanted to try multi class since I've always played single class

I was looking at warlock but 2 spells per short rest then just eblast is worse than wizard fighter who can action surge per short rest and also recover 1/2 wizard lvl spell lvl per shor rest once a Day and also use fire bolt and if needed melee with ac second wind and fighting style

Ah, well if you are going to be playing a wizard then starting as fighter 1 and then taking levels in wizard is very much worth it. I probably wouldn't take the second fighter level until much later, when you have enough spell slots that using several at once isn't going to be as costly. Fighter/Wizard is a fine build and it definitely has strengths, but suffice it to say there is a good reason why not EVERY caster takes 2 levels in fighter.

[Telok]

Let's say you want to play a well educated minor noble with a mix of spellcasting (because versatility) and melee competence (because most of the party is noConBonus casters or ranged attackers and you need another meatshield in the group).

Fighter 1/Lore Bard++ OR Valor Bard++?
Heavy armor vs. medium, except it's light because you don't want to have to split points between Dex and Str.
Magical secrets at 8 instead of 10.
Can use reaction to give enemies penalties vs. using bonus action to passively give allies a boost that they can waste by not using it.
One melee attack vs. two melee attacks at 7th level, keeping in mind that bards don't get class features to improve thier own attacks.

Is that a fair comparison?

[JumboWheat01]

Let's say you want to play a well educated minor noble with a mix of spellcasting (because versatility) and melee competence (because most of the party is noConBonus casters or ranged attackers and you need another meatshield in the group).

Fighter 1/Lore Bard++ OR Valor Bard++?
Heavy armor vs. medium, except it's light because you don't want to have to split points between Dex and Str.
Magical secrets at 8 instead of 10.
Can use reaction to give enemies penalties vs. using bonus action to passively give allies a boost that they can waste by not using it.
One melee attack vs. two melee attacks at 7th level, keeping in mind that bards don't get class features to improve thier own attacks.

Is that a fair comparison?

Why not just stay as a fighter and become an Eldritch Knight then? You have a mix of spell casting and combat, while still being able to fill the meat shield aspect, probably more so, as you can go heavy armor, with a shield, and can throw the Shield spell up as a reaction when you need to REALLY avoid an attack. Plus if spells aren't working, you're still a full fighter, and can unleash a barrage of powerful attacks using a single attack action.

[Rhaegar]

You also have to have 13 in the primary stat of each class you're multiclassing into and out of, and Strength tends to be a dump stat for casters. How much it's worth it could depend on what point system you're using. If you're using a point buy system, you have to spend 5 points to bring strength up from 8 to 13. That's 5 points that could have been better put in other stats. If you're rolling dice for your stats, you're still using a high roll for your strength that would likely have helped you more in con, dex, or even wisdom. The pure caster will have a better combination of Con/dex/wisdom for HP/AC/Saving throws.

That action surge won't help you if you ended up with an 8 wisdom as a result, and failed that hold person save, and are standing there doing nothing now. Or maybe you failed that dex save you'd have otherwise succeeded on and took a big spell to the face, and since you likely also have fewer hp, you are now face planted into the ground. Due to a low con, maybe you fail a concentration check, you got the spell off, but can't hold it.

Action surge may help to burst down a boss encounter, but for an average day of battles, it just means you burn through your spells faster, and find yourself wielding cantrips much sooner, since not only are you casting more spells faster, you also have less spells to cast since as a caster you're two levels behind in spell slots. Overall it just doesn't seem worth it. In the long run I would thing that an Eldritch knight or a bladeslinger wizard would be superior due to being able to focus their stats better.

[Ewhit]

Ek doesn't get Lvl 3 spells until Lvl 13?
Ek is mostly melee where I want more magic with little melee and ek spells are very limited

[CantigThimble]

You also have to have 13 in the primary stat of each class you're multiclassing into and out of, and Strength tends to be a dump stat for casters. How much it's worth it could depend on what point system you're using. If you're using a point buy system, you have to spend 5 points to bring strength up from 8 to 13. That's 5 points that could have been better put in other stats. If you're rolling dice for your stats, you're still using a high roll for your strength that would likely have helped you more in con, dex, or even wisdom. The pure caster will have a better combination of Con/dex/wisdom for HP/AC/Saving throws.

That action surge won't help you if you ended up with an 8 wisdom as a result, and failed that hold person save, and are standing there doing nothing now. Or maybe you failed that dex save you'd have otherwise succeeded on and took a big spell to the face, and since you likely also have fewer hp, you are now face planted into the ground. Due to a low con, maybe you fail a concentration check, you got the spell off, but can't hold it.

Action surge may help to burst down a boss encounter, but for an average day of battles, it just means you burn through your spells faster, and find yourself wielding cantrips much sooner, since not only are you casting more spells faster, you also have less spells to cast since as a caster you're two levels behind in spell slots. Overall it just doesn't seem worth it. In the long run I would thing that an Eldritch knight or a bladeslinger wizard would be superior due to being able to focus their stats better.

Fighter can multiclass with 13 dex or 13 str, not to mention that with heavy armor proficiency dex can be less relevant than str.

[JumboWheat01]

Ek doesn't get Lvl 3 spells until Lvl 13?
Ek is mostly melee where I want more magic with little melee and ek spells are very limited

Valor Bard, War Cleric and Tempest Cleric will give you Melee with full on spell casting. All three give you access to all weapon types, War and Tempest even give you full heavy armor. No sense diluting them with other classes, which while it won't mess with spell DC, will mess with spell slot progression, which is a very precious thing.

[SharkForce]

Valor Bard, War Cleric and Tempest Cleric will give you Melee with full on spell casting. All three give you access to all weapon types, War and Tempest even give you full heavy armor. No sense diluting them with other classes, which while it won't mess with spell DC, will mess with spell slot progression, which is a very precious thing.

alternately, nature cleric will give you heavy armour and shillelagh if you want. if you would rather have wisdom than strength or dexterity as your main attribute.

[JumboWheat01]

alternately, nature cleric will give you heavy armour and shillelagh if you want. if you would rather have wisdom than strength or dexterity as your main attribute.

True, I forgot about Nature Cleric. It's even better if you're playing a Dwarf, since that lets you ignore the penalties for wearing heavy armor if you don't have the strength for it.

[Mellack]

Most of the heavy armors require a minimum strength, so that is another stat you need if you want those. If you plan on being in melee swinging rather than blasting cantrips, that uses either your str or dex to attack. It sounds like this build is getting very MAD.

[CantigThimble]

Most of the heavy armors require a minimum strength, so that is another stat you need if you want those. If you plan on being in melee swinging rather than blasting cantrips, that uses either your str or dex to attack. It sounds like this build is getting very MAD.

Well, normally wizards need 14+ in dex to get decent AC, with heavy armor proficiency they now need a 14+ in str to get decent AC. Not to mention that the only penalty for not having the required strength is -10 movement speed (unless you're a dwarf). It's annoying, but entirely survivable.

[Mellack]

Well, normally wizards need 14+ in dex to get decent AC, with heavy armor proficiency they now need a 14+ in str to get decent AC. Not to mention that the only penalty for not having the required strength is -10 movement speed (unless you're a dwarf). It's annoying, but entirely survivable.

You can trade str for dex and take armor to get a decent AC. But they are also giving up the dex saves (most common) for str saves which are uncommon, as well as having a lover init. Dex is often called the most important stat for a reason.

[CantigThimble]

You can trade str for dex and take armor to get a decent AC. But they are also giving up the dex saves (most common) for str saves which are uncommon, as well as having a lover init. Dex is often called the most important stat for a reason.

I would gladly trade +2 to dex saves and initiative for 4-5 points of AC and a 1st level spell slot. (Mage armor + 2/3 dex = 15/16, Full plate + Shield = 20) If you go dwarf or are willing to lose some speed then you don't even need str at all and have that many points in Con. You don't even need an attack stat to go into melee thanks to shocking grasp.

[JumboWheat01]

I would gladly trade +2 to dex saves and initiative for 4-5 points of AC and a 1st level spell slot. (Mage armor + 2/3 dex = 15/16, Full plate + Shield = 20) If you go dwarf or are willing to lose some speed then you don't even need str at all and have that many points in Con. You don't even need an attack stat to go into melee thanks to shocking grasp.

In that case, why not just play a Mountain Dwarf Wizard and blow an ASI on getting Heavy Armor? As long as your main casting stat is maxed, there's really not much else you need. Blowing an ASI on Heavy Armor and another on CON saves still leaves three to max INT, which is really all you should need.

[bid]

In that case, why not just play a Mountain Dwarf Wizard and blow an ASI on getting Heavy Armor?
No shield means AC18.

You only need Dex14 to get AC20 from half-plate + shield + defense style. You get a lot from delaying wizard by 1 level.

I wouldn't trade 10' speed, +2 to dex saves and initiative for +1 AC.

[MaxWilson]

"Sorry guys, I don't know Raise Dead or Commune yet but look! I can cast Bane AND Spirit Guardians in the same turn! Then 3 of them make their save with a penalty! Get back to me in a few weeks and I might be able to bring Jim back. Sorry Jim, but really we all know this is for the best."

Basically high level spells are amazing. Delaying them by a couple levels sounds fine in theorycraft but in practice it hurts. A lot.

I know this has been mentioned multiple times in this thread for other combos like with Haste, but: Bane and Spirit Guardians both require concentration, so this combo doesn't work. By the time you cast Spirit Guardians, Bane no longer is doing anything, so you're blowing your Action Surge and a 1st level spell slot for nothing extra.

[Ewhit]

Group using pb only. I created a high elf str 8 int 15(16) wis10 dex 16 con 13 cha 12
Using the standard stats on page 13

Wizard 1 hp 7 ac 13 with dex or 16 mage armor

story follows during an encounter the group fought a fierce battle which led the wizard to resort in hand to hand combat for survival. Realizing he lacked melee ability he returned home for training in combat. He trained in finess style defensive combat with a rapier and second wind

Fighter lvl 1 leather armor dex defensive combat
Ac 15

Continued with the adventuring group he assisted in both wizardly and fighter style combat When in dire situations. He once again went home and progressed in combat training

To the chagrin of his magic teacher the great Aladeen Valas in seeing his pupil forgo his magical teachings

Fighter level 2 action surge

Once again back with his adventuring friends he felt more secure at engaging from range with firebolt but no longer afraid of being forced into a melee situation. In fact he was able to use his action surge to cripple the enemy leader shaman with a volley of fire bolts, After slaying a goblin who thought to engage him in melee combat.
On their return he received a note to return home. Aladeen valas had disappeared. A note and a cryptic book left hidden in his room by valas was discovered.

Soon after he began to feverently study magic again. Keeping hidden to all others what valas had left behind for him

Level 2 wizard with future progression in wizard

[Mellack]

Now you are wearing armor and have a worse AC? You should at least try to find studded to equal what you got from mage armor, although with a measly 8 Str I suppose that might be a lot of your carry capacity.
I hope you enjoy your gameplay with this character.

[djreynolds]

We are right now having our *ss handed to us in Ravenloft. Getting hit and dropped could happen to a wizard who has maybe a 16AC and maybe 9HP at level 1. It is a real possibility. Playing the game from level 1 is different from starting at 3rd level. My cleric has been dropped to 2 HP both sessions so far, and he has AC18 and 12 and now 21 HP at 2nd.

A wizard who begins his career as a fighter, starts with AC16 upgradeable to AC18 with a normal shield and possibly AC23 when he becomes a wizard and can cast the shield spell and starts off with a minimum of 10HP. That's pretty good. Action surge is nice, but really just 1 level of fighter is good. But heavy armor does mean a non dwarf will need a 15 strength and that is costly for a wizard who does want a high constitution and intelligence and may be back in the rear and may find dex saves are more important than strength saves that the fighter also gives.

It is a toss up, some of this really depends on who else is in the party and getting heavy armor and maybe a shield will require war caster. And now your intelligence isn't being upgraded.

So is fighter worth it? Are you planning to put a 15 in strength at level 1? Con saves are nice, but why are you in melee getting hit by ghouls. Why aren't you in the back? Is medium armor worth it even, as mage armor and 16 in dex will give you a 15 in AC.

[Ewhit]

It's character concept. Not looking to mini max. But to multiclass a character concept

[FuryouMiko]

You wouldn't pick a Fighter 2/spellcaster because the Bard is a thing that exists, who can easily get AC20 at level 3 as a Blade, has full spellcasting, extra attacks of her own, and warcasting.

[Oramac]

This thread is another good example of why I love a 1-2 level Cleric dip for a full caster.

- No delayed spell progression (though some features are delayed/lost)
- Gain medium armor and shields
- Can gain heavy armor/martial weapons (not that you need them)
- Having a 13-14 Wisdom is not a bad thing, as all the wisdom skills are very useful, and Perception is arguably required.

Granted, any dip could be good or bad for a given player depending on how the person wants to play their character.

Multiclassing is always a trade-off. Each person must ask themselves if the trade is worth it.

[Ewhit]

If you took the bard valor and at 6th Lvl it says whenever you take the attack action you can attack twice instead of once.

Does this mean 2 melee attacks or can you 1. melee once abd spell once
2 or cast 2 attack spells

[JumboWheat01]

The answer is right there. Attack action. Not spell action, attack action. When you attack with your weapon, be it a melee or a bow (but not a crossbow without the right feat,) you attack twice. You've just doubled your weapon damage.

I believe Valor's capstone is letting them make a weapon attack as a bonus action whenever they cast a spell. I may be wrong though, don't have the book in front of me.

[Telok]

If you took the bard valor and at 6th Lvl it says whenever you take the attack action you can attack twice instead of once.

Does this mean 2 melee attacks or can you 1. melee once abd spell once
2 or cast 2 attack spells

Two melee (or ranged) attacks. Unfortunately the bard has no other features that support melee combat untill Valor14.

I really do think that Fighter1/Lore bard++ makes a better melee combatant than a Valor bard. You get a fighting style (protection, +1 AC), armor, weapons, and second wind from fighter. Three more skills, two more spells stolen from other spell lists (and earlier), and they can use the bardic dice to defend themselves in combat. At level 14 they can spend bardic dice to improve thier own ability checks. You need Str, Con, and Chr for the build. The price is delaying spells by one level.

Compare to the Valor bard who gets less AC, one additional attack, and can make an attack as a bonus action after casting a bard spell at level 14. This needs 14 Dex, Str, Con, and Cha plus you're proficent in Dex instead of Con saves. There are almost no charisma saves in the game.

If you go with a melee Lore bard you pump Dex, Con, and Cha. Use a rapier and can use ranged weapons better. You can always spend an ASI to get shields but if you don't then you aren't required to take Warcaster like the other two. You just lose that extra melee attack.

[Zalabim]

If you go with a melee Lore bard you pump Dex, Con, and Cha. Use a rapier and can use ranged weapons better. You can always spend an ASI to get shields but if you don't then you aren't required to take Warcaster like the other two. You just lose that extra melee attack.

So Lore bard is a better melee combatant other than having lower AC and dealing half as much damage when attacking. Right.

Valor bard can also just mainline Dex and play as an archer, or use rapier and shield to fight competently in melee. Valor bard also has the option to take Str instead and use the more damaging two-handed weapons for melee, which might warrant starting a level in Fighter or Paladin for heavy armor.

And no one is ever required to take Warcaster.

[djreynolds]

It's character concept. Not looking to mini max. But to multiclass a character concept

But you want the best character to just survive. Adventuring from 1st level on is vastly different than starting at 5th or 3rd. I would definitely take the sleep spell at 1st level, but I may not prepare it at 5th.

Now selecting fighter is great, just for the armor and weapon proficiencies. But using heavy armor means you need a 14 or 15 in strength. Or selecting a dwarf means beginning the game with a 15 in intelligence. And that means another stat is lower than you want or your spell DC and spell attack is always just 1 behind the average wizard who began their career with a 16 in intelligence. Now maybe you roll great and that 1 means nothing. But at 4th level your intelligence is a 17 and the other caster is an 18. Its not a big deal.

But selecting a fighter at first level is minmaxing because you value con saves and having access to heavy armor, which a level 1 wizard does not get. By doing so you get what would cost a wizard 3 feats for light, medium, and heavy armor and 1 more feat for resilient con.

It is a great dip, just know that until 12th level you will be behind the other casters who maxed their casting stat by 8th level. Is it worth it to you? Most say yes it is. But remember that you spell DC is 1 less than it should be, and the DM may beat say your 15 spell DC but may fail versus your 16 spell DC. A lot of your AoE spells are save or suck.

[Klorox]

If there is ever a video game based on 5e, and you're going to hit 20th level, the power choice is to definitely start with a level or two of fighter (or just one in cleric).

That being said, the "obvious" reasons the OP throws out there (therefore making them invalid in his argument) are undoubtedly the best reasons not to take them.

At the table, it's role playing long before roll playing (at least for me) and that means I'm not likely to play my first two levels as a fighter if I want a wizard.

[JumboWheat01]

If there is ever a video game based on 5e, and you're going to hit 20th level, the power choice is to definitely start with a level or two of fighter (or just one in cleric).

I believe 5e Has Sword Coast Legends being... loosely based around its rules. From my understanding, it's sort of how Neverwinter Online is loosely based on 4e's rules. I haven't had the chance to play it myself yet, so I won't pass any true personal judgements, but it doesn't sound the most promising. Guess I'll just stick with the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights series.

[djreynolds]

Do you play in the AL? Do you roll or use the 27 point buy in. This is big because it changes opinions in directions, etc.

You can always select life cleric at any point in your character progression for heavy armor.

From my experience, if you want to be a wizard, start wizard.

I played 14th level mountain dwarf abjurer, 27 point buy in. My AC with just half plate was a 15AC, coupled with blur/PFGE and mirror image and spamming the shield spell you are plenty tanky and can live without war caster for sometime. Your AC is good enough.

Two levels of fighter means at 5th level you do not have access to 3rd level spells which your party needs, not just you. Haste is powerful when casted on other party members, like the paladin or barbarian. Fly is awesome. You need access to these spells as the CR increases in adventures. Your cantrip is your "melee and ranged" attack, yes it increases with character level but your other spells in your spell book are stuck 2 level behind. Booming blade is good, but pales in comparison to the damage of chain lightning which you do not have or banishment or whatever spell because you are 2 levels behind.

If you want heavy armor, wait. Wait until maybe 12th level. You shouldn't need it with the shield spell and mirror image. Then you can take knowledge cleric and grab medium armor, it is good enough and you get expertise in arcana and history. Otherwise you will have to wait two levels on those 3rd level wizard spells you would've had at 5th level wizard. Those are huge. Fireball is awesome, as it has always been. Counterspell is awesome and can change a battle when you can take out an enemy caster's spell.

Heavy armor and a shield are awesome to have, but your party needs your spells as your opponents get stronger. Wait until higher levels to grab a dip in cleric and then get heavy armor. Two levels of fighter at creation means your intelligence is stuck at a 15 or 16 until 6th level. The only time you have to enter melee should be to provide an extra target for the bad guys beating on your tanks and you are out of AoE spells or buffs for them.

Also a wizard with just a real shield will need war caster because of his arcane focus.