Commonly held 5e misconceptions

[Lines]

Looking to collect as many commonly held myths regarding 5e as possible - I keep hearing something, thinking 'that's not how that works' and forgetting it later, trying to acquire a list all in one place for future reference. It's fine if you houserule something to change it, just looking for myths as they stand. To start:

Myth: A natural 20 makes any check succeed, a natural 1 makes any check fail. Fact: Natural 20s and 1s are only automatic successes and failures on attack rolls. Saves and skills are not affected.
Myth: The Create Thrall ability gives you a thrall, servant or slave. Fact: All it does is charm them, which means they won't attack you and you have advantage on social checks with them.
Myth: If someone leaves a space you threaten, you get an attack of opportunity against them. Fact: You only get an attack of opportunity if they leave your reach entirely.
Myth: Hex can be used to cause disadvantage on saves. Fact: Hex does not give your target disadvantage on your choice of save, merely on an ability score check.
Myth: Quartestaves are two handed weapons or it doesn't make sense to hit with both ends in one hand because I couldn't do it when I tried in my backyard. Fact: Quarterstaves can be used one handed, this means they benefit from the +2 damage from duelist and can make the 1d4 bonus action attack from polearm master.
Myth: Martial arts makes the monks unarmed strike a finesse weapon. Fact: It allows you to use your dexterity for attack and damage, but does not give the finesse quality.

[MrStabby]

Looking to collect as many commonly held myths regarding 5e as possible - I keep hearing something, thinking 'that's not how that works' and forgetting it later, trying to acquire a list all in one place for future reference. It's fine if you houserule something to change it, just looking for myths as they stand. To start:

Natural 20s and 1s are only automatic successes and failures on attack rolls. Saves and skills are not affected.
The Create Thrall ability does not give you a thrall, servant or slave. All it does is charm them, which means they won't attack you and you have advantage on social checks with them.
You only get an attack of opportunity if they leave your range, not if they move around in it.
Hex does not give your target disadvantage on your choice of save.
Quarterstaves can be used one handed, this means they benefit from the +2 damage from duelist and can make the 1d4 bonus action attack from polearm master.

I wouldn't call any of these "Myths", I would call them facts.

[Lines]

I wouldn't call any of these "Myths", I would call them facts.

I wrote from the position of dispelling, not listing the myth itself. Think I should change that around?

[lebefrei]

Yes; this is going to confuse some new players into thinking you are listing the myth.

I'd write as "Myth: The Earth is bigger than the Sun Fact: The Sun is bigger than the Earth" and if possible, to have a complete, reference based list, give book and page, or sage advice/twitter post link. That is a lot more work though.

[MrStabby]

Meh, just may natural pedantry shining through. It might be better swapping it round but not essential.


Now a lot of the myths kind of got dealt with in the errata - questions such as to you add Cha modifier to all who receive damage from a spell as a dragon Sorc. Do you want to include those.

A common myth that keeps coming back is that Martial Arts make Monk Weapons Finesse. Finesse !=using dex as the attack stat.

[Once a Fool]

If we're going to be pedantic, they're all facts--things that can either be proven or disproven (the opposite of which being opinion). At least, that's what the word used to mean when I was in school. Languages do evolve (and dictionaries with them), but replacing the dichotomy between fact and opinion (of which, we have but the one) with yet another for truth and falsehood (of which, we have many) is unfortunate. (And don't even get me started on "fact" and "fiction," which misuses both words!)

All that said, here's another myth for you:

Myth: Everyone gets a standard action, a bonus action, a move action, and a reaction during combat.

Truth: A character only gets a specific bonus action if an ability they are using triggers one for a specific use. And there is no such thing as a "move action." Movement is more akin to a resource (measured in "speed") that can be spent throughout a character's turn to move.

[eastmabl]

"Commonly Held Misconceptions" would be more appropriate.

[Lines]

"Commonly Held Misconceptions" would be more appropriate.

Aaaand done.

[MrStabby]

Myth: Everyone gets a standard action, a bonus action, a move action, and a reaction during combat.

Truth: A character only gets a specific bonus action if an ability they are using triggers one for a specific use. And there is no such thing as a "move action." Movement is more akin to a resource (measured in "speed") that can be spent throughout a character's turn to move.

So what is the trigger that allows me to cast misty step? Or the trigger that allows me to cast a paladin smite spell?

[Once a Fool]

So what is the trigger that allows me to cast misty step? Or the trigger that allows me to cast a paladin smite spell?

Starting your turn with the ability to do so. Note that the granted bonus action is conditional--as soon as you cast a non-cantrip spell, it is revoked.

[eastmabl]

So what is the trigger that allows me to cast misty step? Or the trigger that allows me to cast a paladin smite spell?

For the former? You have a second level spell slot (or some equivalent, such as sorcery points), and you haven't used a bonus action yet this turn.

For the latter? Assuming that you're talking about divine smite.... When you hit with an attack, you can smite as part of that Attack action.

[Once a Fool]

For the former? You have a second level spell slot (or some equivalent, such as sorcery points), and you haven't used a bonus action yet this turn.

For the latter? Assuming that you're talking about divine smite.... When you hit with an attack, you can smite as part of that Attack action.

Pretty sure he means an actual bonus action smite spell (divine smite doesn't use a bonus action), in which case, the first answer also applies.

[eastmabl]

Pretty sure he means an actual bonus action smite spell (divine smite doesn't use a bonus action), in which case, the first answer also applies.

Ahh. I'm purposefully AFB at work, and the Smite spell isn't in the SRD.

[CantigThimble]

Ahh. I'm purposefully AFB at work, and the Smite spell isn't in the SRD.

Divine Smite isn't a spell, it's a paladin class feature that lets them spend spell slots.

You might want to add polearm master with shillelagh to the list.

[Shaofoo]

Myth: 20th level druids are invincible, nothing can kill me ever again!

Fact: Besides the fact that you can still take damage from excessive damage carrying over and that can kill you, effects that instakill will still off you since other effects will stick through transformations.

Example: If your HP is lowered through Harm the same effect will pass through and your main body will likewise have lowered HP as well.

Sure that makes them harder to hit but not instant win.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The whole "you can only take a bonus action if you have an ability available that uses a bonus action" thing seems convoluted and unnecessary. I understand that may be the rule, but for Pelor's sake, why? Why not just say "you get an action, a bonus action, a reaction and you can move up to your speed?" What's the harm?

[Shaofoo]

The whole "you can only take a bonus action if you have an ability available that uses a bonus action" thing seems convoluted and unnecessary. I understand that may be the rule, but for Pelor's sake, why? Why not just say "you get an action, a bonus action, a reaction and you can move up to your speed?" What's the harm?

Maybe to basically prevent people from trying to eke out an extra action outside the established paradigm.

The one I can imagine is trying to use Extra Interact Object events by saying that you could use a bonus action in what should be a free action (even though Interact Object is part of the action and not a "free action").

It is more complex but it makes bonus action unequivocally only be used by bonus actions by making them not exist until something that can be used as a bonus action exists.

[Millstone85]

Myth: The Create Thrall ability gives you a thrall, servant or slave. Fact: All it does is charm them, which means they won't attack you and you have advantage on social checks with them.While that is true, I still hold the opinion that "they won't attack you and you have advantage on social checks with them" should go beyond pure crunch. If not a slave, then a lover, or an admirer, or a friend, or your personal doormat, or someone who gets dizzy and influenceable around you, or something. Also, even if you do treat it as pure crunch, you should remember that, unlike other features and spells that bring the charmed condition, Create Thrall does not punish you for attacking the creature. You can hurt them, again and again and again, while they remain unable to retaliate.


The whole "you can only take a bonus action if you have an ability available that uses a bonus action" thing seems convoluted and unnecessary. I understand that may be the rule, but for Pelor's sake, why? Why not just say "you get an action, a bonus action, a reaction and you can move up to your speed?" What's the harm?You have a point. It could also be said that you do not have a reaction to use on your round unless something gives you one.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I think they (probably correctly) anticipated confusion and players demanding things like making off-hand weapon attacks without taking attack actions if they didn't spell out that in order to take a bonus action you need something to put in the bonus action "slot", you can't just select anything that when done would be a bonus action and then do it.

[PeteNutButter]

Maybe to basically prevent people from trying to eke out an extra action outside the established paradigm.
The one I can imagine is trying to use Extra Interact Object events by saying that you could use a bonus action in what should be a free action (even though Interact Object is part of the action and not a "free action").
It is more complex but it makes bonus action unequivocally only be used by bonus actions by making them not exist until something that can be used as a bonus action exists.

I agree with Grod here. If the justification for the RAW is that it is a preemptive attempt to prevent wacky home-brew house-ruled bonus actions from springing up... then it is at once failing and poorly executed.

You can only make a bonus action if you have something that can make a bonus action is so silly its nearly insanity. It's like saying you don't just GET to use your legs. You can only use your legs if you have legs.

It's adding extra complexity to a simple concept. If you have an action of a certain type you can do it, otherwise no. That doesn't need to be spelled out in an extra layer.

[Foxhound438]

myth: multiattack is an option for the attack action, and thus things like a monk's martial arts trigger from it
fact: multiattack is its own action, and anything tied to the attack action can't be used from it.

myth: extra attack lets you swing 4 times if you have 2wf
fact: you only ever get one bonus action per turn, and extra attack doesn't effect the bonus action option from holding 2 weapons

myth: you can concentrate on multiple spells at once
fact: concentration ends if you cast another spell that requires concentration

myth: assassinate lets you auto crit if you're hidden from your target, because they would be surprised
fact: surprise only occurs if there's a surprise round. After that, creatures are alert and, thematically, not going to stand there while you try to stab them in the neck.

all i can think of off the top of my head.

[Foxhound438]

Myth: 20th level druids are invincible, nothing can kill me ever again!

Fact: Besides the fact that you can still take damage from excessive damage carrying over and that can kill you, effects that instakill will still off you since other effects will stick through transformations.

Example: If your HP is lowered through Harm the same effect will pass through and your main body will likewise have lowered HP as well.

Sure that makes them harder to hit but not instant win.

not to mention anything that "incapacitate"s you, like a good old stunning blow, prevents you from turning back to your beast form.

[CantigThimble]

myth: you can concentrate on multiple spells at once
fact: concentration ends if you cast another spell that requires concentration

Also, casting a spell with a casting time of longer than one action requires concentration. You can't banish something and then start making a magic circle around the spot where it left.

[PeteNutButter]

myth: assassinate lets you auto crit if you're hidden from your target, because they would be surprised
fact: surprise only occurs if there's a surprise round. After that, creatures are alert and, thematically, not going to stand there while you try to stab them in the neck.


Myth: There is a surprise round.
Fact: Surprise is not a separate round but something that can occur (more akin to a condition like restrained, incapacitated, etc) to some or all members of one side during the first round of combat. phb pg 189

[greenstone]

Myth: Passive Perception is for when your character is not actually trying to perceive something.
Fact: Passive Perception is for when you don't want to roll lots of dice (for example, making one WIS (Perception) roll for every 10 feet of passage, in a half-mile wide dungeon complex) or for when the GM wants to maintain suspense and not ask the player to make a roll.
Fact: If your character is not trying to perceive anything (for example, when they are making a map) then they don't get any WIS (Perception) roll at all.

[Once a Fool]

The whole "you can only take a bonus action if you have an ability available that uses a bonus action" thing seems convoluted and unnecessary. I understand that may be the rule, but for Pelor's sake, why? Why not just say "you get an action, a bonus action, a reaction and you can move up to your speed?" What's the harm?

It was a deliberate design decision to speed up combat and make the game easier to learn.

3rd and, especially, 4th edition showed them that, when you make a complex action economy and then give players lots of options to fill it with, players will tend to slow things (way) down figuring out the best use of that action economy, because it is in the players' best interest to do so.

Instead, we are supposed to forget bonus actions exist, until they do. Easier to teach, quicker to play.

[Segev]

It is kind-of weird that there's a feat which ONLY improves passive, but not active, perception.

[Theodoxus]

Myth: There is a surprise round.
Fact: Surprise is not a separate round but something that can occur (more akin to a condition like restrained, incapacitated, etc) to some or all members of one side during the first round of combat. phb pg 189

My table has a horrible time with 'surprise round'. I've begun explaining it like being flat-footed - in fact, just to help out our assassin, I've been eliminating the surprise component and just deciding if you haven't acted yet at the start of combat, you're considered to have the 'surprised' condition. Otherwise, we're just playing a game of meta-knowledge one-up-man-ship and no one gets surprise - which isn't fair to the classes that get bennies from it.

The concept of Surprise in 5E is nearly as useless and full of contention as Hide is.

This is pure houserule though, so take it with a huge grain of salt and a lot of Myth...

[Aetol]

It was a deliberate design decision to speed up combat and make the game easier to learn.

3rd and, especially, 4th edition showed them that, when you make a complex action economy and then give players lots of options to fill it with, players will tend to slow things (way) down figuring out the best use of that action economy, because it is in the players' best interest to do so.

Instead, we are supposed to forget bonus actions exist, until they do. Easier to teach, quicker to play.

This. If you tell the players "you get one bonus actions per round, but you need to meet such-and-such conditions to use it", they will feel cheated when they can't use it. If you tell them "if you meet such-and-such conditions, you can take one bonus action on top of your regular action", they will feel like they cheated the action economy when they get to use it.

[Coffee_Dragon]

It is kind-of weird that there's a feat which ONLY improves passive, but not active, perception.

"Hey, Bill, there's ninjas about, we want you to keep an eye open."

"Um. I wish you hadn't told me that."

*they both get stabbed by ninjas*

[Tanarii]

Myth: A natural 20 makes any check succeed, a natural 1 makes any check fail. Fact: Natural 20s and 1s are only automatic successes and failures on attack rolls. Saves and skills are not affected.You're right. But IMO it's worth noting that the DMG has the following.

DMG p. 242, Chapter 8, Running the Game, Resolutions and Consequences
Critical Success or Failure
Rolling a 20 or a 1 on an ability check or a saving throw doesn't normally have any special effect. However, you can choose to take such an exceptional roll into account when adjudicating the outcome. It's up to you to determine how this manifests in the game. An easy approach is to increase the impact of the success or failure. For example, rolling a 1 on a failed attempt to pick a lock might break the thieves' tools being used, and rolling a 20 on a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check might reveal an extra clue.

Note that's not saying auto success or failure. But this is not a variant rule, despite the wording of 'normal'. It's something the DM can choose to do as one of a variety "of flourishes and approaches you can take when adjudicating success failure to make things a little less black-and-white." So yeah, you can potentially expect any DM in a default-RAW game to call for some special affect on a 20 or 1.


Myth: Martial arts makes the monks unarmed strike a finesse weapon. Fact: It allows you to use your dexterity for attack and damage, but does not give the finesse quality.
Mistake I made just the other day, I don't know how common it is: Monk weapons are usable for melee or ranged attacks, they just need to be melee weapons.

[mgshamster]

Myth: Passive Perception is for when your character is not actually trying to perceive something.
Fact: Passive Perception is for when you don't want to roll lots of dice (for example, making one WIS (Perception) roll for every 10 feet of passage, in a half-mile wide dungeon complex) or for when the GM wants to maintain suspense and not ask the player to make a roll.
Fact: If your character is not trying to perceive anything (for example, when they are making a map) then they don't get any WIS (Perception) roll at all.

Kind of right...

From PHB, page 177: "Passive Perception. When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching."

So that kind of says that your myth isn't a myth. Although your two facts are true.

[Tanarii]

From PHB, page 177: "Passive Perception. When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching."

So that kind of says that your myth isn't a myth. Although your two facts are true. Yeah, Passive Perception is the exception to the explanation of what passive skill checks are for.

Passive skill checks are explicitly for when the DM wants the average of something done repeatedly, or when you want a secret check. The former is an active use of the skill. The latter debatably can be used for either an active use or a passive use.

But then in two explicit places they tell you to use Passive Perception vs Hiding when you're not searching. Of course, later on under adventuring chapter, they explicitly tell you that if you're doing something else instead of paying attention you don't get to use your passive perception to notice the threat.

So there is a special exception to the normal way passive skills work. Against an active use of Stealth for Hiding, non-searching creatures get to use Passive Perception. But that exception doesn't apply when traveling, so I guess that only makes it good against combat use of Stealth.

Edit: I thought about this some more, and it seems the intended way for passive perception to be used is similar to a three tier system:
1) looking/searching for something specific (roll perception)
2) Not actively looking for something specific, but actively being aware of your surrounding and potential danger (passive perception)
3) not paying attention or doing something else (no perception)

I know that's not exactly how the rules say to use it, but it seems simplest. And yes, that creates a ground state perception in many cases, which is where people complain about perception "radar"

[mgshamster]

Yeah, Passive Perception is the exception to the explanation of what passive skill checks are for.

Passive skill checks are explicitly for when the DM wants the average of something done repeatedly, or when you want a secret check. The former is an active use of the skill. The latter debatably can be used for either an active use or a passive use.

But then in two explicit places they tell you to use Passive Perception vs Hiding when you're not searching. Of course, later on under adventuring chapter, they explicitly tell you that if you're doing something else instead of paying attention you don't get to use your passive perception to notice the threat.

So there is a special exception to the normal way passive skills work. Against an active use of Stealth for Hiding, non-searching creatures get to use Passive Perception. But that exception doesn't apply when traveling, so I guess that only makes it good against combat use of Stealth.

You get your passive perception while traveling. It's only when your attention is focused elsewhere that you don't - like drawing a map while traveling, or navigating, or foraging for food, or tracking. Things like that. If you're just walking (or riding) along, you use your passive perception.

Edit: and you came to the same conclusion I did in your ninja edit.

[Talamare]

Myth - You can't Twin Concentration Spells / Using Twin metamagic on a Concentration spell cancels the spell on both targets

Fact - The Twin Metamagic only changes the number of targets a spell affects, You will only have a single casting of the spell active for you to concentrate on


Myth - Rituals require a lot of preparation, set up, large rooms, excessive incantation, candles, and body oil

Fact - Rituals ONLY require your action (every 6 seconds for the duration of the cast time, potentially 100 actions or more), you're free to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING else, as long as it doesn't require your standard action. Including moving, and potentially attacking. (Altho Attacking without using your Action is significantly more difficult)

[djreynolds]

[QUOTE=Lines;20551162]


Myth: Quartestaves are two handed weapons or it doesn't make sense to hit with both ends in one hand because I couldn't do it when I tried in my backyard. Fact: Quarterstaves can be used one handed, this means they benefit from the +2 damage from duelist and can make the 1d4 bonus action attack from polearm master.
QUOTE]

I agree with everything you said. A good post.

But using a shield and quarterstaff and getting polearm master out of it as well, is just cheesy. I'm sorry. Our table in the AL, don't allow just on cheesy

And you're right, I tried it in my backyard and almost killed my dog and myself. But funny thing is, my neighbor's daughter could do it, as she is baton twirler. Small world.

[Malifice]

My table has a horrible time with 'surprise round'. I've begun explaining it like being flat-footed - in fact, just to help out our assassin, I've been eliminating the surprise component and just deciding if you haven't acted yet at the start of combat, you're considered to have the 'surprised' condition. Otherwise, we're just playing a game of meta-knowledge one-up-man-ship and no one gets surprise - which isn't fair to the classes that get bennies from it.

The concept of Surprise in 5E is nearly as useless and full of contention as Hide is.

This is pure houserule though, so take it with a huge grain of salt and a lot of Myth...

I don't get the confusion mate. What are they finding hard to get about it?

[MrStabby]

My table has a horrible time with 'surprise round'. I've begun explaining it like being flat-footed - in fact, just to help out our assassin, I've been eliminating the surprise component and just deciding if you haven't acted yet at the start of combat, you're considered to have the 'surprised' condition. Otherwise, we're just playing a game of meta-knowledge one-up-man-ship and no one gets surprise - which isn't fair to the classes that get bennies from it.

The concept of Surprise in 5E is nearly as useless and full of contention as Hide is.

This is pure houserule though, so take it with a huge grain of salt and a lot of Myth...

I would be careful of this ruling, it is very generous. It could give rise to a table full of bard assassins (jack of all trades, bardic inspiration to always get to go first) or champion assassins. Even as it is if you have combat with multiple enemies it is very likely that the assassin will have someone to go in front of on that first turn... they will get a huge boost nearly every combat.

[Zalabim]

While that is true, I still hold the opinion that "they won't attack you and you have advantage on social checks with them" should go beyond pure crunch. If not a slave, then a lover, or an admirer, or a friend, or your personal doormat, or someone who gets dizzy and influenceable around you, or something. Also, even if you do treat it as pure crunch, you should remember that, unlike other features and spells that bring the charmed condition, Create Thrall does not punish you for attacking the creature. You can hurt them, again and again and again, while they remain unable to retaliate.

It also lets you communicate with the creature by two-way telepathy at any distance. You can be a nagging boss or persistent telemarketer.


Myth - Rituals require a lot of preparation, set up, large rooms, excessive incantation, candles, and body oil

Fact - Rituals ONLY require your action, you're free to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING else, as long as it doesn't require your standard action. Including moving, and potentially attacking. (Altho Attacking without using your Action is significantly more difficult)

In fact, the Rite of Ashkente really only requires two bits of wood and a fresh egg. The rest of the ritual is just to comfort the old wizards who are summoning Death.

[Tanarii]

The concept of Surprise in 5E is nearly as useless and full of contention as Hide is.

This is pure houserule though, so take it with a huge grain of salt and a lot of Myth...
Lol

Myth: surprise is particularly hard or easy to achieve.

Fact: Surprise is achieved mechanically when one side is hiding (using Stealth), and some or all of the creatures in the other side fail to spot them using passive perception, as described on PHB p. 189 (Surprise). How difficult or easy it is to achieve depends on the Player's willingness to move slowly to allow Stealth and not do other tasks disallowing passive perception per PHB p. 182 (Travel Pace & Activities while Traveling), Monsters willingness to use Stealth, and their relative skill levels.

:p ;)

(I also allow surprise in certain social situations with a Dception vs Insight check. Especially fun for large social gatherings like the stereotypical ball assassination scenario.)

[Coffee_Dragon]

Fact - Rituals ONLY require your action, you're free to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING else, as long as it doesn't require

... two free hands.

[EvilAnagram]

Fact - Rituals ONLY require your action, you're free to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING else, as long as it doesn't require your standard action. Including moving, and potentially attacking. (Altho Attacking without using your Action is significantly more difficult)

To be a bit more accurate, rituals cost whatever the spell says they cost, save your spell slot. If a spell's casting time is ten minutes, ritual casting doesn't make it cost an action.

Myth: Special AC abilities stack.

P. 14 of the PHB clearly says that if you have multiple possible ways of calculating AC, you pick one. Things that don't stack with each other include:
Unarmored Defense
Draconic Resilience
Mage Armor
Any armor

Any item or feature that does not provide an AC calculation (e.g.: AC=13+Dex), but instead just provides a flat +1 or +2 bonus, does stack with AC calculations.

[Sir cryosin]

I agree with Grod here. If the justification for the RAW is that it is a preemptive attempt to prevent wacky home-brew house-ruled bonus actions from springing up... then it is at once failing and poorly executed.

You can only make a bonus action if you have something that can make a bonus action is so silly its nearly insanity. It's like saying you don't just GET to use your legs. You can only use your legs if you have legs.

It's adding extra complexity to a simple concept. If you have an action of a certain type you can do it, otherwise no. That doesn't need to be spelled out in an extra layer.

If you didn't have legs then how are you using your legs? What the rule is trying to prevent things like someone casting a spell then using bonus action to attack with off hand "well I have two weapons in my hand and I haven't used my bonus action so I attack with off hand weapon.

[Sir cryosin]

I got one for ya'll to make clear THE ALERT feat it says you can't be surprised. So if said ALERT person is sleeping and I'm a rogue assassin I can't get the surprise auto crit.if I attack said person on there sleep. And just how does the feat works.

[Coffee_Dragon]

To be a bit more accurate, rituals cost whatever the spell says they cost, save your spell slot. If a spell's casting time is ten minutes, ritual casting doesn't make it cost an action.

Hm. So a ritual with an S component requires two hands, which should cut down the number of things you can do in the meantime significantly.

Suddenedit: When casting from a ritual book. Dewrp. Otherwise it's just the one hand. Could make some things difficult.

[KorvinStarmast]

I got one for ya'll to make clear THE ALERT feat it says you can't be surprised. So if said ALERT person is sleeping and I'm a rogue assassin I can't get the surprise auto crit.if I attack said person on there sleep. And just how does the feat works.

It's called "sleeping with one eye open" ...

[Captbrannigan]

It's called "sleeping with one eye open" ...

Gripping your pillow tight?

[Sir cryosin]

It's called "sleeping with one eye open" ...

I call shenanigans. But what if they were put to sleep with the spell sleep.

[Sir cryosin]

Gripping your pillow tight?

This almost killed me I was drinking tea when I read it.

[Belac93]

"Hey, Bill, there's ninjas about, we want you to keep an eye open."

"Um. I wish you hadn't told me that."

*they both get stabbed by ninjas*

Well, one of my DMs figured out a way to deal with this for PCs. They can never roll lower on perception than their passive. Prevents them from just never rolling because they are worried that their passive perception may have been enough. Its worked out great so far.

[Vogonjeltz]

I got one for ya'll to make clear THE ALERT feat it says you can't be surprised. So if said ALERT person is sleeping and I'm a rogue assassin I can't get the surprise auto crit.if I attack said person on there sleep. And just how does the feat works.

Alert says they can't be surprised while they are conscious. Sleeping people aren't conscious, ergo they can be surprised.

[RickAllison]

Well, one of my DMs figured out a way to deal with this for PCs. They can never roll lower on perception than their passive. Prevents them from just never rolling because they are worried that their passive perception may have been enough. Its worked out great so far.

My DM has just stopped trying to hide anything from me :smallbiggrin: When I stroll down the hall with 25+ passive Perception and Investigation at level 8, he just gave up and gave me a list of everything interesting

[coredump]

Using the Passive mechanic for Perception is an odd one, because Perception is an odd skill.

Most skills you need to choose to use it. You decide to climb something, you decide to intimidate, you decide to heal(medicine), etc.
But the presumption is that everyone is always, kinds-sorta, paying attention to their surroundings to one extent or another. I am just sitting here typing, but if someone walks into the room, I will notice them. If someone sneaks up behind me, I may still hear them.

But.... you still need to be 'doing' perception. If you are busy reading a book, or mapping, or looking for a trap.... you may not be paying enough attention to notice someone sneak up on you.
Heck, even if you are just relaxing an eating your lunch, you may be at disadvantage to notice someone sneaking up on you.

In my mind (as DM), if you are adventuring, or something similar, you are 'on alert' and are continually paying attention as you do other things. If I used the Passive mechanic, I would use the full value.
Perhaps if you were sitting around camp talking over the fire, and I chose to use the Passive mechanic, you may get normal, or maybe disadvantage.
If you were on guard duty, and I had reason to suspect you were being particularly vigilant, then perhaps gain advantage.

The point is, Passive means you are doing something repeatedly.... but you still need to be *doing it*. If you are doing something else, or if you are doing it well/poorly, can easily modify the check.




As for Bonus Actions....

You do *not* have a bonus action normally.
Each turn you have an "Action", and you can do something. Some of those things are listed in the PHB, but not all. Even if you wanted to do something not listed.... you can. Because you have one (1) Action to use in any way you see fit. Maybe you want to open and close a door repeatedly. Maybe you want to solve Rubiks Cube, perhaps whittle a toy, or close your eyes and wish for something really hard.
You can do any of these things, because you always have the one Action so you can do whatever you want.

You do *not* have a bonus action to use. You only get a bonus action is something explicitly allows you to use a bonus action.
This is a fundamental, and important, distinction.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Well, one of my DMs figured out a way to deal with this for PCs. They can never roll lower on perception than their passive. Prevents them from just never rolling because they are worried that their passive perception may have been enough. Its worked out great so far.

Isn't this taking the rogue's Reliable Talent and giving it to everyone for Perception, though?


My DM has just stopped trying to hide anything from me :smallbiggrin: When I stroll down the hall with 25+ passive Perception and Investigation at level 8, he just gave up and gave me a list of everything interesting

My DM complained about my passive Perception of 18, which made me think taking Observant at 10th to make it 26 might offer diminishing returns, and bump up Resilient (Con) on the shopping list instead.

[Vogonjeltz]

Using the Passive mechanic for Perception is an odd one, because Perception is an odd skill.

Most skills you need to choose to use it. You decide to climb something, you decide to intimidate, you decide to heal(medicine), etc.
But the presumption is that everyone is always, kinds-sorta, paying attention to their surroundings to one extent or another. I am just sitting here typing, but if someone walks into the room, I will notice them. If someone sneaks up behind me, I may still hear them.

But.... you still need to be 'doing' perception. If you are busy reading a book, or mapping, or looking for a trap.... you may not be paying enough attention to notice someone sneak up on you.
Heck, even if you are just relaxing an eating your lunch, you may be at disadvantage to notice someone sneaking up on you.

In my mind (as DM), if you are adventuring, or something similar, you are 'on alert' and are continually paying attention as you do other things. If I used the Passive mechanic, I would use the full value.
Perhaps if you were sitting around camp talking over the fire, and I chose to use the Passive mechanic, you may get normal, or maybe disadvantage.
If you were on guard duty, and I had reason to suspect you were being particularly vigilant, then perhaps gain advantage.

The point is, Passive means you are doing something repeatedly.... but you still need to be *doing it*. If you are doing something else, or if you are doing it well/poorly, can easily modify the check.




As for Bonus Actions....

You do *not* have a bonus action normally.
Each turn you have an "Action", and you can do something. Some of those things are listed in the PHB, but not all. Even if you wanted to do something not listed.... you can. Because you have one (1) Action to use in any way you see fit. Maybe you want to open and close a door repeatedly. Maybe you want to solve Rubiks Cube, perhaps whittle a toy, or close your eyes and wish for something really hard.
You can do any of these things, because you always have the one Action so you can do whatever you want.

You do *not* have a bonus action to use. You only get a bonus action is something explicitly allows you to use a bonus action.
This is a fundamental, and important, distinction.

The game seems to assume that, absent some other engrossing activity, a character is looking around paying attention for whatever might happen. Which is why it calls for passive perception automatically against stealth scores, with an exception given for overland travel if the character is specifically engaged in a series of activities that would take their full attention (foraging, mapmaking, etc) and otherwise distract them.

[Talamare]

To be a bit more accurate, rituals cost whatever the spell says they cost, save your spell slot. If a spell's casting time is ten minutes, ritual casting doesn't make it cost an action.

Re-wrote it slightly to mention every action for several minutes

[Tanarii]

The game seems to assume that, absent some other engrossing activity, a character is looking around paying attention for whatever might happen.Yeah, but it's easy to interpret that as "active". You're looking around and paying attention. That's doing something. Just not for someone or something in particular.

Edit: Not active as in requiring a check. Active as in not actually doing something "passively", even though the check is named that.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yeah, but it's easy to interpret that as "active". You're looking around and paying attention. That's doing something.

Edit: Not active as in requiring a check. Active as in not actually doing something "passively", even though the check is named that.

Except active denotes purpose no? Which is how the check is determined. characters make a check when they are choosing to look for something, but not when something happens that they might notice.

[soldersbushwack]

... two free hands.

Actually Contact Other Plane has Verbal components only.

[Pex]

Myth: 5E is a game without magic items.

Fact: (Permanent) Magic items do exist, 5E does not forbid them, and the game does not fall apart because of them. It is a strength of the game that a PC does not absolutely need any one particular (permanent) magic item to function, but that does not equate to (permanent) magic items should not exist at all. It's fine that 5E PCs will have fewer (permanent) magic items than PCs of earlier editions, but "fewer" does not equal "zero". If your playing group doesn't use (permanent) magic items and everyone is all ecstatic about that hooray for you, but that is not indicative of how 5E should be or is meant to be played.

[Kurt Kurageous]

The thread has (d)evolved OT from the OP. I'm not going to stop it.

On the point of passive perception, I use the house rule that no one, including NPCs and monsters, can roll lower than their passive score. They only get to roll if they are looking for something in particular, and I disregard die rolls below 10.

My reasoning is this: We used to teach (and may still do) our Soldiers to do 5 and 25 meter visual searches. They are exiting a vehicle looking for hidden or partially hidden things that could kill them starting right at their feet. That's an active search. We do it so we don't get killed easily.

If you don't actively search, you are relying on noticing things not usually in your field of view. People don't normally look up at high ceilings, or look around much at all once they have seen an obvious and dangerous threat to their life.
It takes a really special person to notice the hidden door while not looking at the charging monster.

What the rule seems to say is DC10 means it should be noticed even if you are not looking for it. This cuts down the swinginess of d20 and increases the value of +es to perception (WIS). A hidden object with a DC above a 10 requires someone of above average perception/situational awareness to find without an active effort. The craftsmanship required to make something DC15 or 20 is pretty awesome. Characters with passive perceptions like mentioned above are pretty awesome, too.

It goes back to the debate on what you need to roll to sit down on the ground. DC 1 with advantage? Then waste time rolling dice for everything. I'd rather take part in telling a story.

[JackPhoenix]

To be a bit more accurate, rituals cost whatever the spell says they cost, save your spell slot. If a spell's casting time is ten minutes, ritual casting doesn't make it cost an action.

Nope, it costs you your concentration and an action for every round of its casting time:


When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so (see “Concentration” below). If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don’t expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Actually Contact Other Plane has Verbal components only.

Yeah, I was confused anyway, thinking about ritual casting using the feat. (But if a DM decided I couldn't cast Contact Other Plane while running the country lane between Bogsville and Bonethorp juggling mackerels I would personally still not begin to argue RAW and player agency.)


Myth: 5E is a game without magic items.

Does anyone actually say that though?


What the rule seems to say is DC10 means it should be noticed even if you are not looking for it. This cuts down the swinginess of d20 and increases the value of +es to perception (WIS).

But the swinginess argument could be made (and is being made in other threads) for pretty much any skill. So house ruling to reduce swinginess, generally or situationally, seems to indicate you simply would like a different skill system, and address this by freely distributing a significant class feature that is desired precisely for mitigating swinginess in a swingy system.

[Tanarii]

Except active denotes purpose no? Which is how the check is determined. characters make a check when they are choosing to look for something, but not when something happens that they might notice.
Um. I suppose that's a fair way to look at it, and certainly explains why so many people accept that it's passive. To me (and clearly some others) it's very much active. You are doing something. The purpose isn't to see anything, but you are actively paying attention to your environment.

To make some analogies (probably bad ones): Kind of like when you drive a car. You're not searching for any particular threat to your self. You're paying attention to where you are going. But you're actively observing the environment in the process, and (hopefully) see that stupid Pickup Truck driver is going to cut you off before he runs you off the road. If you start texting and driving, you're distracted (-5 to passive). Meanwhile the passenger who is playing with the radio and talking to your friends in the backseat probably isn't paying any attention at all (no passive, possibly passive -5 for distracted). If they're on their phone, definitely not paying any attention (no passive for sure).

Ditto if you're in a casual conversation with a friend just after you've walked into a bar. You're probably notice any cute chicks as you talk to your friend and order a drink from the bartender (passive perception). But later on after you start trying to hit up one of the chicks, you're probably distracted (disadvantage on passive perception, ie -5). If you start dancing with her you've probably stopped paying any attention (no passive). When a brawl breaks out, you suddenly start looking for your friends so you get the hell out of dodge (active perception check to find friends).

Note: Many of my friends stop talking to me and just start looking at all the women right away. They're actively searching. ;)

[EvilAnagram]

Nope, it costs you your concentration and an action for every round of its casting time:

I want you to explain how this is different from what I said? If a spell is cast without using a ritual and takes longer than an action, it eats up your actions over the time involved.

[Snile]

I agree with everything you said. A good post.

But using a shield and quarterstaff and getting polearm master out of it as well, is just cheesy. I'm sorry. Our table in the AL, don't allow just on cheesy

And you're right, I tried it in my backyard and almost killed my dog and myself. But funny thing is, my neighbor's daughter could do it, as she is baton twirler. Small world.

In what way is that cheesy?

[djreynolds]

[QUOTE=djreynolds;20555322]

In what way is that cheesy?

First, great thread. For I was one of those fools who thought a 20 was a success on everything. And its good to know when you are wrong.

So your thread is great, and I humbly apologize for my rudeness

But I find it cheesy to use any weapon with a shield and somehow get a bonus attack with the other end of it. And this guy with a quarterstaff and shield can even get an AoO with it from polearm master, but a guy with a great sword cannot even though they are at least the same length. Yet a person wielding a spear cannot get any benefit from polearm master. And on top of this you can select shillelagh and use wisdom for it all. And this can be done from level 1 on. I mean it took almost 4 or 5 feats for a character to achieve the ability to use the whirlwind attack in 3rd edition. A human variant can possibly can select polearm master and nature cleric or druid and do this at level 1.

And on top of it all, it becomes abused. As people are using GFB and smite on top of it. It becomes an easy way to just dump stats.

If you want to use this, it is valid by RAW and Mr Crawford says its valid as RAI, but it is cheesy. Especially because there is no real effort in obtaining this. There is no class or ability prerequisites.

And I apologize.

[Snile]

{Scrubbed}

[djreynolds]

This is the tradeoff we get from 3.5/pathfinder to 5E. Simplicity vs exactness.

But for 5E's simplicity, things are missed. You know some guys want to punch with a shield, and instead of just adding in that options, we have to homebrew it. Instead of working out the math in making 5E, we are left working out the math if we want this.

Why is there no feat to offset a drow's light disadvantage.

What's the point of letting a Halfling achieve a 20 in strength and if cannot trip up a giant or wield a greatsword or longbow without disadvantage?

And disadvantage can mean nothing on two rolls, or a huge failure.

That's the tradeoff from pathfinder to 5E, the exactness. How much is disadvantage? -5 like GWM, or roll 2d20 and get a 20 and 6, that's difference of 14.

But the simplicity allows the game to move forward faster. Its definitely a balancing act.

[EggKookoo]

The whole "you can only take a bonus action if you have an ability available that uses a bonus action" thing seems convoluted and unnecessary. I understand that may be the rule, but for Pelor's sake, why? Why not just say "you get an action, a bonus action, a reaction and you can move up to your speed?" What's the harm?

There's a really straightforward way to visualize this that doesn't get confusing. Imagine you have two buckets in front of you. One is labeled "action" and the other is labeled "bonus action" (let's ignore reactions for now).

When it's your turn, think about all the things you could do (or want to do). Every decision has its own label or category: "action" or "bonus action." You can put one "action" choice in the "action" bucket and one "bonus action" choice in the "bonus action" bucket. So far so good. But if it turns out that none of your options at the moment have the "bonus action" label, you don't have anything to put in the "bonus action" bucket. It's still there but you just don't have anything to put in it, so it goes unused this turn.

Same kind of thing for reactions. You have a third bucket labeled "reaction." The main difference there is that you don't put a "reaction" labeled option in there until something happens (not during your turn) that prompts it, and once you do, it's full until the end of the round.

[goto124]

Instead of buckets, maybe we can talk about round holes and square pegs?

[EggKookoo]

Instead of buckets, maybe we can talk about round holes and square pegs?

Action slot = round hole
Bonus action slot = square hole
Reaction slot = triangle hole

Action = round peg
Bonus action = square peg
Reaction = triangle peg

Works for me.

[Tanarii]

There's a really straightforward way to visualize this that doesn't get confusing. Imagine you have two buckets in front of you. One is labeled "action" and the other is labeled "bonus action" (let's ignore reactions for now).Except that the bonus action bucket only comes into existence when you have something to put in it.

[EggKookoo]

Except that the bonus action bucket only comes into existence when you have something to put in it.

People get confused because the rules make a hash of the concept of "you can only use your bonus action if you have a bonus action to use," which sounds circular and leads to the very frustration Grod was expressing. If you simplify it to say "the bonus action is a slot that you can fill with a bonus action option" and then the variable is just whether or not you have a bonus action option, it's much clearer. To me, anyway.

[Captbrannigan]

People get confused because the rules make a hash of the concept of "you can only use your bonus action if you have a bonus action to use," which sounds circular and leads to the very frustration Grod was expressing. If you simplify it to say "the bonus action is a slot that you can fill with a bonus action option" and then the variable is just whether or not you have a bonus action option, it's much clearer. To me, anyway.

What's to stop a TWF Wizard from casting a standard spell, then attacking with her off hand as a "bonus action?"

[CantigThimble]

What's to stop a TWF Wizard from casting a standard spell, then attacking with her off hand as a "bonus action?"

"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

[EggKookoo]

What's to stop a TWF Wizard from casting a standard spell, then attacking with her off hand as a "bonus action?"

The rules. It specifically says you only get the offhand attack action when you use your (regular) action to make an attack. So in this case, the wizard's offhand attack doesn't exist and therefore cannot be placed in the "bonus action" bucket.


"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand."

Thank you, specifically page 195 if anyone wants to go look it up.

[pibby]

Myth: You can cast a spell as an action before or after casting a spell as a bonus action.

Fact: The only spell you can cast the same turn as a spell cast as a bonus action is a cantrip.

I believe this myth is misunderstood as a fact because in every other edition of the game this was indeed possible. The rule on bonus action spells can also be read RAW so that you are allowed to cast a spell as an action before casting a spell as a bonus action, but that can be discussed in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481546-Bonus-action-casting-time%97RAI-is-clear-but-I-think-RAW-has-a-dumb-trick). This happens all the time in my FLGS whenever we do AL and it annoys the hell out of me. I'm not sure if it's something I should accept as a houserule for the venue or not. Trying to correct them so far has made me out to be "that annoying rules lawyer". :smallfrown:

[Malifice]

I call shenanigans. But what if they were put to sleep with the spell sleep.

Dude - if they're asleep you cant surprise them, but you still autocrit them anyway. A sleeping creature is incapacitiated.

[Baptor]

Does anyone actually say that though?

I've only really heard one or two that have said, verbatim, that 5e is supposed to be played without magic items. What you hear most of the time is that it should be played with no items of practical value (i.e. the better than nothing item threads which are legion). There are some people that think the only magic swords you should give out are ones which allow you to talk to beavers because that's real magic man and items that boost stats, raise shields or gods forbid give you a +1 to hit are abominations from the deepest part of the Abyss that any classy DM would steer very much clear of.

I designed a helmet that allowed you to 1/day, remove a harmful enchantment from yourself and was told in so many words that it was "bloat" that 5e did not need and that my "magic item mentality" was just the kind of thing that was ruining the game. I was told that on this board.

Such things caused me a lot of confusion early on with Next playtesting and D&D 5e proper and its folks like Pex and Mr.Moron who helped clear up a lot of the confusion.

So the short answer is, yes. Yes people say that.

[Malifice]

So the short answer is, yes. Yes people say that.

Ive seen it too, and its weird becuase literally all the campaigns I've seen (and all the modules released to date) use magic items.

[BurgerBeast]

On the topic of active vs. passive perception, I think of it this way:

Using your eyes: Passive = seeing. Active = looking.
Using your ears: Passive = hearing. Active = listening.

I think of the passive form as the kind you can't really stop doing, or have to take a special effort to not do. If things enter your field of view, you're likely to see them, like it or not. Likewise if sounds reach your ears, you're likely to hear them, like it or not.

So passive checks are the things you can't really turn off.

I can fully understand why someone who is drawing a map or reading a book would not get a passive check at all, or get a penalty to their passive score, as the DM sees fit, because their attention is devoted to something in such a way that they have less attention available to absorb passive sensations.

I know that some times, at least in my experience, DMs have called for a roll for a perception just to determine if a PC noticed something, in the same way a DM might call for a knowledge check just do determine if a PC happens to know a particular tidbit of information. This doesn't suit my personal taste. To my mind these should always use the passive value.

Am I off in this?

[RickAllison]

On the topic of active vs. passive perception, I think of it this way:

Using your eyes: Passive = seeing. Active = looking.
Using your ears: Passive = hearing. Active = listening.

I think of the passive form as the kind you can't really stop doing, or have to take a special effort to not do. If things enter your field of view, you're likely to see them, like it or not. Likewise if sounds reach your ears, you're likely to hear them, like it or not.

So passive checks are the things you can't really turn off.

I can fully understand why someone who is drawing a map or reading a book would not get a passive check at all, or get a penalty to their passive score, as the DM sees fit, because their attention is devoted to something in such a way that they have less attention available to absorb passive sensations.

I know that some times, at least in my experience, DMs have called for a roll for a perception just to determine if a PC noticed something, in the same way a DM might call for a knowledge check just do determine if a PC happens to know a particular tidbit of information. This doesn't suit my personal taste. To my mind these should always use the passive value.

Am I off in this?

There are certainly times to use an active Perception check. An example might be trying to spot someone in a crowd. Passive Perception lets you know that there are people there, but you need to make an active check to find a specific person. A common example from movies and TV shows is the person waiting for a friend, alone, in a scary place. They hear a crackle using passive Perception and instantly react and end up almost attacking their friend. An active Perception check might tell you that it was your friend approaching, but your passive will only say that someone is approaching behind you.

[Knaight]

I've only really heard one or two that have said, verbatim, that 5e is supposed to be played without magic items. What you hear most of the time is that it should be played with no items of practical value (i.e. the better than nothing item threads which are legion). There are some people that think the only magic swords you should give out are ones which allow you to talk to beavers because that's real magic man and items that boost stats, raise shields or gods forbid give you a +1 to hit are abominations from the deepest part of the Abyss that any classy DM would steer very much clear of.

This is one way to depict the argument of straight numerical bonuses generally being uninteresting, but it's a bit distorted. There's a lot less along the lines of "talk to beavers" and a lot more along the lines of "cleave through stones" or "breathe underwater" or "walk across delicate branches, lily pads, and other things that absolutely shouldn't be able to support your weight".

[BurgerBeast]

There are certainly times to use an active Perception check. An example might be trying to spot someone in a crowd. Passive Perception lets you know that there are people there, but you need to make an active check to find a specific person. A common example from movies and TV shows is the person waiting for a friend, alone, in a scary place. They hear a crackle using passive Perception and instantly react and end up almost attacking their friend. An active Perception check might tell you that it was your friend approaching, but your passive will only say that someone is approaching behind you.

Certainly. I didn't really go into detail on that but I absolutely agree.

Active perception would be used to search a room for someone who you know is hiding, or (as you say) trying to pick someone out in a crowd, or checking a hallway for traps. In the context of listening, it's an active check if you listen at a door for noises on the other side, or you try to pick out a voice in an argument (happening out of your sight), or try to pick out exactly what is being said amongst other noise in a room.

[JackPhoenix]

I want you to explain how this is different from what I said? If a spell is cast without using a ritual and takes longer than an action, it eats up your actions over the time involved.

But you haven't said that. You said:


To be a bit more accurate, rituals cost whatever the spell says they cost, save your spell slot. If a spell's casting time is ten minutes, ritual casting doesn't make it cost an action.

Emphasis mine. Not only ritual spell still cost an action, but it cost you every action for the next 10 minutes (at least)

[coredump]

You guys are missing the application of the terms.

There is only one skill, Perception. There is no Passive Perception skill, nor an Active Perception skill.
The terms passive/active are not describing the fiction of what the PC is doing.

Passive describes the *mechanic* being used by the DM to adjudicate any uncertainty. Normally a die is rolled, which is an 'active' mechanic. If you don't roll a die, that is a 'passive' mechanic.
Active and passive describe the *player* action, not the PC action.

In both/all cases, the PC is trying to perceive his environment.
Even if he is an alert elite guard continually (actively) scanning for bad guys, since he is doing the same thing over and over, the DM may choose to use the Passive game mechanic for that ability check.

[EvilAnagram]

But you haven't said that. You said:



Emphasis mine. Not only ritual spell still cost an action, but it cost you every action for the next 10 minutes (at least)

I said that casting a ritual spell as a ritual doesn't make it cost an action. That is true. It costs however many actions it takes to fulfill the requirements of the spell. I did not say that casting it as a ritual means you do not spend any actions.

[xroads]

I'm not sure if this was already covered but...

Myth: If you have advantage but one of your dice comes up with a 1, you automatically fail regardless of what the other dice comes up with.

Fact: On advantage you benefit from the better of both die rolls.

[Shaofoo]

I'm not sure if this was already covered but...

Myth: If you have advantage but one of your dice comes up with a 1, you automatically fail regardless of what the other dice comes up with.

Fact: On advantage you benefit from the better of both die rolls.

Uhhh, I never heard anyone ever say that at all. You always use the better of the rolls regardless of the lesser roll. Also it doesn't make sense on skill checks where a 1 isn't a failure.

I mean did you also think that on disadvantage that a 20 is an auto success regardless of the lesser roll... and it would be funny if you roll a 1 and a 20 but because you had advantage you'd fail and with disadvantage you'd succeed.

[xroads]

Uhhh, I never heard anyone ever say that at all.

And yet I've seen a DM rule it that way. I tried to argue the point, but wasn't successful.



I mean did you also think that on disadvantage that a 20 is an auto success regardless of the lesser roll...

Nope. Just like I didn't think that with an advantage, a 1 is an automatic failure. That's why I posted it as a myth. :smallwink:

[Shaofoo]

And yet I've seen a DM rule it that way. I tried to argue the point, but wasn't successful.



Nope. Just like I didn't think that with an advantage, a 1 is an automatic failure. That's why I posted it as a myth. :smallwink:

Well according to the topic at hand it still isn't a common misconception, just because one person doesn't know the rules doesn't make his mistake a common misconception all of a sudden. Especially considering when the common view on how advantage and disadvantage work is the correct one.

I am sorry about having to deal with such a person but please stay on topic, thank you.

[Knaight]

And yet I've seen a DM rule it that way. I tried to argue the point, but wasn't successful.

It's the common part of common misconception I'm not hearing here. Advantage and Disadvantage are both well explained mechanics that work in pretty obvious ways and don't really have any weird side cases that emerge from the rules, I suspect you bumped into an outlier. It's also pretty clear just from glancing at the misconception that it would create weird edge cases where you don't want advantage because it increases your failure rate (mostly on skill checks you succeed on a 2), and where you do want disadvantage because it decreases your failure rate (mostly on skill checks you succeed with on a 20, which is an expanded range with an always succeed rule in place).

[jkat718]

I, too, have heard of the natural 1/20 rule being (mis-)applied to what should've been the ignored roll with advantage and disadvantage.

[Saeviomage]

Myth: a player has any say in whether his check is active or passive, by outright saying that he is active, or by doing something in a specific way.
Fact: the distinction between the two is whether or not the dm wishes to roll dice, and has nothing to do with in game actions.