Considering some rules for high level play

[MrStabby]

I am considering trying some new rules for higher level characters - some of my players are worried that certain spells and abilities get a bit silly and I would like to find a way round that. The following is where I am at, followed by some of my concerns...

1) A player can take a maximum of 14 levels in a single class
2) Whenever a player with a character level of 14 or over receives an ASI they may instead select a class or subclass ability from any class or subclass that occurs at a class level equal to or below their character level. They may not select an ability that has an implied prerequisite unless the already have that prerequisite (so no metamagic without font of magic, no third attack without a second attack, no improved smite without smite). No ability may be taken multiple times. If you take an ability from a class you must meet the prerequisites for multiclassing into that class. And abilities that reference number of levels in a class retain the reference to that class (i.e. you can pick up font of magic on your druid but it will still look at Sorc levels not druid levels).

This should enable more multiclassing without player worrying about missing on on their precious capstones, cut down some of the more egregiously powerful high level cheese (no 8th/9th level spells (although still the spell slots for them), wildshape capped at a slightly lower level). I hope that this will introduce some more interesting characters.

The downsides as I see it is that it really will reward research and planning more than character development sometimes. If there are abilities people want then lining up 3 classes that only need one more level to get an ASI as you cross the level 14 threshold may be a bit of an exploit, or using fighters extra ASIs in a similar way.

Another effect, which I like but others might not, is that it blurs class boundaries. Now there are no longer clear fighters, clear rangers and so on but more of a continuum of character concepts with a bunch of different abilities running through them.


Power levels might shift a bit; this can be accommodated but I am more concerned that it might narrow down viable options more than increasing them. Looking at say fighter abilities I can see some temptations: Take paladin to 11 then 4 levels of Sorcerer and pick up a third attack from the fighter list at level 15 is pretty strong (for example). Taking the Warcaster ability on a rogue is again very nice. Possibly 3 levels of battlemaster but later picking the ability to get superiority dice back on initiative roll (or better dice).

If I were to use these rules what are the most powerful characters I would see? I don't mind power builds as long as there are a lot of them and there is not a clearly best one. What is the most abusive character the Playground can come up with?

[Zman]

Have you guys played at high levels yet? A lot of the powerful spells are only one spell slot per spell level per day, with a couple encounters they aren't going o be used every encounter and characters have incentive to rely on the lower level spells, just as 14 levels in a caster would do. Also, most of the powerful spells are reasonable in effect, especially compared to 3.5, and anything too problematic can be handled to a touch of DMing.

What exactly are the concerns?

I'd rather just adjudicate the rules as they are Han try and implement the changes you are suggesting. Alternatively, if you want to cap spell power without too many rules simple remove 8th and 9th level spells from normal play and make them quest/ritual/plot exclusive while allowing casters to go to a full 20th level. They'd still get spell slots and class features, just not the ability to cast 8th and 9th level spells. That would incentivize MCing for many casters and tone down the straight classed characters.

[Lines]

Have you guys played at high levels yet? A lot of the powerful spells are only one spell slot per spell level per day, with a couple encounters they aren't going o be used every encounter and characters have incentive to rely on the lower level spells, just as 14 levels in a caster would do. Also, most of the powerful spells are reasonable in effect, especially compared to 3.5, and anything too problematic can be handled to a touch of DMing.

What exactly are the concerns?

I'd rather just adjudicate the rules as they are Han try and implement the changes you are suggesting. Alternatively, if you want to cap spell power without too many rules simple remove 8th and 9th level spells from normal play and make them quest/ritual/plot exclusive while allowing casters to go to a full 20th level. They'd still get spell slots and class features, just not the ability to cast 8th and 9th level spells. That would incentivize MCing for many casters and tone down the straight classed characters.

A few of them have persistent effects - wish means infinite simulacra, foresight lasts 8 hours, true polymorph can last forever, etc.

[Magnetized]

If you use the alternate spell points system in the DMG that will limit the power of caster classes a bit while allowing the casters to cast lower level spells more often. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the spell points variant, but it can be found in the DMG on pg. 288-289. As written, the variant limits casters to a single spell per day for each tier above 5th level.

It would probably be easier to modify the spell point variant rules than it would be to balance out a forced system of multiclassing. I'm personally fond of the realism variant for short and long rests. If you combine the spell point variant with the gritty realism rest variant and then limit spells of 6th slot or higher to once per long rest you can drastically reduce that feeling of casting classes being OP while still letting them cast very frequently. It's also nice to only need to design 2 or 3 encounters per day rather than 4 to 6 in order to maintain class balance.

[Zman]

A few of them have persistent effects - wish means infinite simulacra, foresight lasts 8 hours, true polymorph can last forever, etc.

Ok, and all of those problems are easily manageable by any competent DM willing to tell their players "No". Player want to create a chain of infinite Simulacra, tell them now, that a Similacra cannot create a Simulacrum. Easy Fix.

Yep, Foresight is very powerful and lasts 8 hours.... and it is also a 9th level spell, the only 9th level slot the character will have, and comes at a huge opportunity cost...

Yes, True Polymorph is pretty crazy, and can permantely change something or someone into something else, including the caster. It can be broken, but can be managed with a little DM interaction.


Talking about making sweeping changes to the game system when a little bit of good DMing will solve the problem seems like lighting your house on fire to kill a cockroach instead of just squashing the cockroach.

[RulesJD]

The broken spells at higher level are generally:

1. Wish
2. Simulacrum
3. True Polymorph
4. Wall of Force
5. Forcecage
6. Clone
7. Spirit Guardians
8. Conjure Woodland Beings
9. Demiplane
10.Magic Jar

Note that Wall of Force is broken right off the bat, same with Conjure Woodland.

[PeteNutButter]

As you worded the start, it would seem that at Ranger 14/EVERY Class 3, my character could pick a level 17 ability, just FYI. That is definitely not your RAI.

Anyways I'm on board with everyone else, either altar the short list of spells that break the game or just don't have them in your world. It's like high level spells weren't meant to be balanced. It is puzzling.

The other spells, save or suck, or pure damage ones etc are balanced for their levels.