PF - DM Advice - Stacking the Advanced Template?

[unseenmage]

Assume that I am the DM. Assume that I am willing to stack the Advanced Simple Template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creature-cr-1) on a lower CR monster several times to make it challenge my moderately optimized level 17 PCs.

How many times is too many before the stat bonuses break things like CR in two?

How does the answer to the above change if the players have the capacity to gain control of the monster?
(Permanent control, not just until end of combat. And they'd still have to defeat it first and pay gp based on its CR.)

[Florian]

It´s +4 to all stats. look up the NPC WBL table and compare how often you could fit in a Belt/Headband of +4 to all stats. Roughly speaking, 3 times and things will begin to break.

Every combatant gets an equal share of XP, no matter if they can be used for advancement. You dominate a giant/dragon/robot and it fight on your side, it gets its share of XP. (Minions by direct class features are exempt from this)

[Vhaidara]

The quick build rules RAW there is hilarious. That +2 to all rolls applies to all rolls ever.
Shadow Str damage? Yup
Magic Missile Damage? Yessir
Enervation negative levels? Oh boy

Hell, it applies to things that are % based. Arcane spell failure, Wild Surge, Divination failure chances (IIRC at least some are % based).

Basically, we need more info if you're using the first option, because it might be fine on a beatstick, but absolutely insane when some things come into play (Like the above shadow).

The second version raises the issue of what exactly you mean by "challenging" and "mid optimization PCs". Class and build matter a lot.

[unseenmage]

The quick build rules RAW there is hilarious. That +2 to all rolls applies to all rolls ever.
Shadow Str damage? Yup
Magic Missile Damage? Yessir
Enervation negative levels? Oh boy

Hell, it applies to things that are % based. Arcane spell failure, Wild Surge, Divination failure chances (IIRC at least some are % based).

Basically, we need more info if you're using the first option, because it might be fine on a beatstick, but absolutely insane when some things come into play (Like the above shadow).

The second version raises the issue of what exactly you mean by "challenging" and "mid optimization PCs". Class and build matter a lot.

Hm. Moderately optimized was a guess as I was hoping for more generalized advice about the PF system and how it interacts with the Advanced Simple Template if said template was allowed to stack.

The players are over-wealth-ed and all have +5 to all stats. There's a owlfolk Monk, goblin Rogue, ghoul Bard, and an android Alchemist. The monk and rogue are highly effective alpha strikers. The bard is built like a primary caster with shenanigans granting access to level 9 spells once or twice per day. The alchemist makes constructs to the exclusion of all else.

The template would be applied with the more complex option since as you pointed out the simple option is silly. The creatures in question are robots that the alchemist will be able to reactivate and get control of. (Turning robots into loot has been a blast and all kinds of fun but definitely skewed the power levels some.)

Is that enough information?

[Vhaidara]

Probably. I mean, inasmuch as things can BE a challenge at that level vs 2 rocket taggers, a dude with 9ths, and a minionmancer.

[Florian]

@unseenmage:

In practical terms, you apply simple templates in cases when you miscalculated the CR of an encounter and want to adjust things on the fly. Too tough/not tough enough for the CR you aimed for? Apply a simple template. They´re also a good tool to generate a bit more survivable "solo" encounter, and the´s pretty much the whole scope of it. They don´t have a very clean rules interaction, as Keledrath pointed out, because they don´t need to if used as intended.

If you want to do it "the right way", you should use the route of HD advancement to upgrade the CR of a creature. That takes time but leads to cleaner results.

[Zancloufer]

I don't think the Simple Template was meant to be stack-able with it's self. Once it's okay and is probably worth a +1 or +2 but using it multiple time and it quickly gets broken.

Imagine a 16 HD animal that's, IDK, CR 7. To get it to CR 17 you would 'stack' the template 10 times. Which would result in:

+640 HP, +60 AC, +40 to hit and damage, +40 to all saves, +40 Initiative, +60 CMD. Also if it had any special ability with a save DC (like a Poison) it would have +40 to the save. Also would insta-gib with said poison on a failed save (ouch).